Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[TMDaines]

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[Rajma]

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They couldn’t even get Shoigu on a video call and had to resort to blatantly faking it (the video snip where he still looks alive here is from end of the January, apparently).

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

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A common tactic. Israelis are expert at it. Internal consumption versus external consumption with external consumption atomised into different grades of propagandistic likelihood of effectiveness.

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This part I don't agree with. I agree media literacy is a problem, but that it is a problem for the West with respect to the West. Then outside actors must be taken into account. The collectivizing narratives (and narrative strategies) pursued by the US and other western governments gives me as much cause for alarm, primarily because despite what people think, the West is in actuality far better at propaganda than the Russians or the Chinese. The axiom is that the freer the society the more heavily propagandized its people.

But overall, yes, the Russians are obviously running propaganda campaigns. Consider Israel's courting of far right anti-Semites in America. They do it because they've lost support among left and left-leaning voters and so promote different images of what Israel is depending on who they want to sway. Most countries do it, really, but those which engage in war do it more often and with more sinister purposes.

 

[Zehner]

A common tactic. Israelis are expert at it. Internal consumption versus external consumption with external consumption atomised into different grades of propagandistic likelihood of effectiveness.

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This part I don't agree with. I agree media literacy is a problem, but that it is a problem for the West with respect to the West. Then outside actors must be taken into account. The collectivizing narratives (and narrative strategies) pursued by the US and other western governments gives me as much cause for alarm, primarily because despite what people think, the West is in actuality far better at propaganda than the Russians or the Chinese. The axiom is that the freer the society the more heavily propagandized its people.

But overall, yes, the Russians are obviously running propaganda campaigns. Consider Israel's courting of far right anti-Semites in America. They do it because they've lost support among left and left-leaning voters and so promote different images of what Israel is depending on who they want to sway. Most countries do it, really, but those which engage in war do it more often and with more sinister purposes.

Err what? We are more propagandized than the Russians? Come on.

 

[Zehner]

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They couldn’t even get Shoigu on a video call and had to resort to blatantly faking it (the video snip where he still looks alive here is from end of the January, apparently).

Wasn't Shoigu the only member of the government that was said to still be close to Putin at the beginning ofnthe war? And wasn't he also one of the siloviki?

Wonder how that came to be.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Err what? We are more propagandized than the Russians? Come on.

Yes, to the extent that many in the west don't even perceive the propagandistic value behind their information. This has been well understood for a century, when propaganda underwent its rebranding in the form of "public relations". The old adage that people in totalitarian societies are less likely to believe their government's propaganda (political correctness versus reality in the USSR) holds true.

Historians and sociologists are well-placed to provide media literacy classes and they should be on every syllabus.

Useful links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Lippmann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

 

[Pintu]

Err what? We are more propagandized than the Russians? Come on.

Not far. We are definitely more recipient to our governments propaganda than Russians are. I personally consider that most of our governments propaganda is good propaganda. But not all of it.

The myth about Israel being a democracy and how this myth survived countless reports on apartheid (HRW, Amnesty..) is a good example.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

The myth about Israel being a democracy and how this myth survived countless reports on apartheid (HRW, Amnesty..) is a good example.

Israel is a democracy, really, it's just not democratic in those areas (WB) which are de facto Israeli but de jure Palestinian, hence apartheid. The Knesset is really a model parliament if there weren't an apartheid situation in WB/Gaza (and so Israel as a whole, or "Greater Israel, from the Jordan River to the *Med Sea" which includes the Palestinians under Israeli occupation/siege but excludes them from representation). The myth, or propagandistic value, being that the situation of apartheid is reinforced via omission (selectivity).

 

[stefan92]

Wasn't Shoigu the only member of the government that was said to still be close to Putin at the beginning ofnthe war? And wasn't he also one of the siloviki?

Wonder how that came to be.

Possibly quite simply because he told Putin what he liked to hear about his army he was in high regard. And that crashed as soon as Putin realised it was all fake.

 

[Raoul]

Wasn't Shoigu the only member of the government that was said to still be close to Putin at the beginning ofnthe war? And wasn't he also one of the siloviki?

Wonder how that came to be.

Just a guess on my part, but I suspect most of them were against the invasion (with the possibly exception of Patrushev).

 

[nimic]

Yes, to the extent that many in the west don't even perceive the propagandistic value behind their information. This has been well understood for a century, when propaganda underwent its rebranding in the form of "public relations". The old adage that people in totalitarian societies are less likely to believe their government's propaganda (political correctness versus reality in the USSR) holds true.

Historians and sociologists are well-placed to provide media literacy classes and they should be on every syllabus.

Useful links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Lippmann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

You can't just throw in some Wikipedia links as if that's any kind of argument. There's no doubt there's western propaganda, but it's honestly ridiculous to claim that the west is "far better at it" than Russia or China, one authoritarian and one totalitarian country, where people currently believe there's not even a war going on (reminder of what thread we're in).

 

[TMDaines]

The axiom is that the freer the society the more heavily propagandized its people.

I don’t know where to begin with this. Why do dictators usually eliminate freedom of the press and media?

 

[Pintu]

Israel is a democracy, really, it's just not democratic in those areas (WB) which are de facto Israeli but de jure Palestinian, hence apartheid. The Knesset is really a model parliament if there weren't an apartheid situation in WB/Gaza (and so Israel as a whole, or "Greater Israel, from the Jordan River to the *Med Sea" which includes the Palestinians under Israeli occupation/siege but excludes them from representation). The myth, or propagandistic value, being that the situation of apartheid is reinforced via omission (selectivity).

So it’s definitely not the liberal democracy that our free media keeps telling us it is.

And you didn’t even mention the Palestinians that are permanently banned from entering their homes in Israel and are instead confined in refugee camps in Gaza or abroad.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

You can't just throw in some Wikipedia links as if that's any kind of argument. There's no doubt there's western propaganda, but it's honestly ridiculous to claim that the west is "far better at it" than Russia or China, one authoritarian and one totalitarian country, where people currently believe there's not even a war going on (reminder of what thread we're in).

That's the condensed history of Western propaganda from which Chomsky and Herman formulated their propaganda model.

You can watch that in an easy to engage with 3hr format here (covers most of the territory):

https://archive.org/details/manufacturing_consent

 

[TMDaines]

Red Cross has had a mare:

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[Mciahel Goodman]

I don’t know where to begin with this. Why do dictators usually eliminate freedom of the press and media?

But the people in those societies are well aware that the press reflects the totalitarian government's point of view. Pravda in USSR is a good example. The readership knew it was heavily censored. The point being that Western (mainstream/corporate) media is heavily censored according to different logics. The video above is a good introduction. Not trying to move off point, anyway, just an interesting conversation with respect to Russian efforts outlined above.

(For example, why did Russia have to arrest protestors if they believed there was no war?)

 

[RedTiger]

Red Cross has had a mare:

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Don't really see anything wrong with the Red Cross there. They say the exact same thing in every conflict.

 

[MTF]

But the people in those societies are well aware that the press reflects the totalitarian government's point of view. Pravda in USSR is a good example. The readership knew it was heavily censored. The point being that Western (mainstream/corporate) media is heavily censored according to different logics. The video above is a good introduction. Not trying to move off point, anyway, just an interesting conversation with respect to Russian efforts outlined above.

(For example, why did Russia have to arrest protestors if they believed there was no war?)

Like that recent time when the US Govt claimed that it had blasted an ISIS vehicle IED and its driver to smithereens, then the largest newspaper in the country published that in fact they had murdered an aid worker and children. That sort of heavy censorship?

 

[TMDaines]

Don't really see anything wrong with the Red Cross there. They say the exact same thing in every conflict.

Having banter with one of the architects of this war and the ensuing humanitarian catastrophe, then in your press release describing said war in very sympathetic, Russian apologist terms is a terrible look.

I’ll certainly think twice before choosing to support them over other humanitarian agencies in the immediate future.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Like that recent time when the US Govt claimed that it had blasted an ISIS vehicle IED and its driver to smithereens, then the largest newspaper in the country published that in fact they had murdered an aid worker and children. That sort of heavy censorship?

Again, I'm not talking about like-for-like propaganda, or saying that dissent doesn't get through. It's a broader argument best understood via the sources I've cited above (as I could go like-for-like and demonstrate clear examples of press censorship, but "censorship" itself is too narrow in the western context).

 

[Rajma]

Don't really see anything wrong with the Red Cross there. They say the exact same thing in every conflict.

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Emm, being part of the Ukrainian genocide is not enough for you?

 

[nimic]

That's the condensed history of Western propaganda from which Chomsky and Herman formulated their propaganda model.

You can watch that in an easy to engage with 3hr format here (covers most of the territory):

https://archive.org/details/manufacturing_consent

I know what manufacturing consent is, I just don't think your comparison to authoritarian/totalitarian countries is correct. The Chinese in particular are victims of an extremely dense system of propaganda. Now, you might argue that western propaganda is more subtle (because it has to be), but it's definitely not more effective.

Thanks for the link though, I'm sure someone who hasn't seen it will take a look.

Edit: it's on YouTube in better quality

 

[Frosty]

Again, I'm not talking about like-for-like propaganda, or saying that dissent doesn't get through. It's a broader argument best understood via the sources I've cited above (as I could go like-for-like and demonstrate clear examples of press censorship, but "censorship" itself is too narrow in the western context).

What do you think of the UK's D Notice system?

 

[Pintu]

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Emm, being part of the Ukrainian genocide is not enough for you?

Rostov is not in Siberia and Red Cross having access to the displaced Ukrainians is not contributing to genocide.

Red Cross can’t do its job if it was boycotting terrorist states like Putin’s regime. RC needs their cooperation to do its job.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I know what manufacturing consent is, I just don't think your comparison to authoritarian/totalitarian countries is correct. The Chinese in particular are victims of an extremely dense system of propaganda. Now, you might argue that western propaganda is more subtle (because it has to be), but it's definitely not more effective.

Exactly, it's far more subtle. That's why it tends to be far more effective, but an argument for a different thread maybe. The Chinese example would need qualification.

What do you think of the UK's D Notice system?

Wasn't overly familiar with it, but I know what you mean. A good example but I would argue the best propaganda is not via censorship at all (not as we think of it).

 

[RedTiger]

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Emm, being part of the Ukrainian genocide is not enough for you?

Red Cross are only concerned with people not dying, they'll smooch the devil if it means less civilian casualties. On the point of facilitating the movement of people to refugee camps, they've always done that. You guys may not like them talking and liasing with the enemy but red criss have always tried to be apolitical.

 

[Carolina Red]

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A church in my hometown actually just announced that they’ve got Ukrainian refugees coming in next week and are looking for people to house them.

My brother also just text me telling me he’s getting a Ukrainian refugee tomorrow as a student.

 

[spiriticon]

You gotta love Russia talking about saving civilian lives while they bomb the shit out of them.

It's just a bit surreal.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I know what manufacturing consent is, I just don't think your comparison to authoritarian/totalitarian countries is correct. The Chinese in particular are victims of an extremely dense system of propaganda. Now, you might argue that western propaganda is more subtle (because it has to be), but it's definitely not more effective.

Thanks for the link though, I'm sure someone who hasn't seen it will take a look.

Edit: it's on YouTube in better quality

The main reason why Russian and Chinese propaganda is effective (inside their own countries) is because the regimes there control all of the available media. It's not hard to be effective when the public have very little access to any counter-narratives. It's even easier when most people are afraid to say anything out of turn.

 

[Raoul]

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[4bars]

The levels of whatabout that will follow this...

And rightly so. Criticizing why some refugees are ok and others no should make us look deep into our institutional (and no institutional) racism. Specially if the other conflicts the west had been an active part of the problem

 

[sun_tzu]

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Have they sanctioned abrahomivic yet ... or still leaving him alone as he bribed a bunch or Israeli polititians made some generous donations to holocaust charities

 

[harms]

Wasn't Shoigu the only member of the government that was said to still be close to Putin at the beginning ofnthe war? And wasn't he also one of the siloviki?

Wonder how that came to be.

I wouldn’t call him one if siloviki, those are the people from FSB/FSS/police, Shoigu was originally the head of emergency situations ministry (firefighters etc.) before switching to ministry of defense. He’s very close to Putin and there were no prior indications of him disapproving if the invasion though.

 

[Raoul]

Have they sanctioned abrahomivic yet ... or still leaving him alone as he bribed a bunch or Israeli polititians made some generous donations to holocaust charities

I think they're going light on Roman because Zelinskyy told them he would make a good envoy between Russian and Ukrainian sides.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

so Ireland announces up to 200,000 and the USA announces half that. Nice

A total embarrassment for a country that has tons of land left to relocate about everyone.

That being said, American xenophobes can be outright told to feck off to the respective countries of their European ancestors if they have a problem with immigration.

 

[WI_Red]

A total embarrassment for a country that has tons of land left to relocate about everyone.

That being said, American xenophobes can be outright told to feck off to the respective countries of their European ancestors if they have a problem with immigration.

True, but we are trying to help these people so sending them to Idaho or the Dakota's might just be downright cruel.

 

[TMDaines]

Red Cross are only concerned with people not dying, they'll smooch the devil if it means less civilian casualties. On the point of facilitating the movement of people to refugee camps, they've always done that. You guys may not like them talking and liasing with the enemy but red criss have always tried to be apolitical.

I get that, but there’s a line that shouldn’t be crossed when an organisation is helping civilians. I don’t want to be a position where the funds I have donated to help those civilians are being channelled in a way that somewhat launders the reputation of those who have caused all the civilian harm in the first place.

I only hope the Ukrainian Red Cross’s funds are ring-fenced from this. Ditto the British Red Cross’s too from the DEC fund.

 

[TMDaines]

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[Pintu]

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[VorZakone]

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