Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[sglowrider]

I'm a little surprised the propaganda boys didn't claim that Ukrainian soldiers killed the people in Bucha. But then they only have so many resources to produce propaganda, and can't be as fast as actual news.

You work for Putin?

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[klsv]

Yeah, I took a deep dive into pro-Russian English Twitter. I understand that there are some things that are uncomfortable for Ukraine and the west to admit, it is a war after all. They do seem to live on another planet, though. They actually try to convince people how civilians in Bucha were pro-Russia and killed by Ukrainians after the Russiana retreated two weeks ago (the Russian line is that they already left March 20).

 

[Beans]

You work for Putin?

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Thankfully no, though I was offered the opportunity to attend West Point!

This Russian propaganda seems pretty easy to see through to me, but then I'll admit I used to fall for the local Democrat party propaganda, about how they want to represent the interests of voters and they aren't a party beholden to big business. You think that if the Republicans are bad, and the democrats are telling you about it, they must be good!

Russian news will tell you all about the improprieties of the West (along with plenty of BS I'm sure especially now) and I imagine it's very easy for people in Russia to make the same mistake I made as a young man, thinking the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

But the Russian govt isn't anyone's friend. If they were an ice cream flavor, they'd be prailines and d*ck.

 

[RoyH1]

That UN Security Council meeting should get pretty rowdy for it's normal sedate diplospeak standards. The Russian's arguing the Ukranians did it, half of the attendees arguing against it furiously and China and some others sitting on the sidelines.

I don't even know how bad it's going to be in the future when deepfakes made with AI will allow countries to make entire productions to fake the truth beyond what normal people can see through.

 

[Maagge]

Yeah, I took a deep dive into pro-Russian English Twitter. I understand that there are some things that are uncomfortable for Ukraine and the west to admit, it is a war after all. They do seem to live on another planet, though. They actually try to convince people how civilians in Bucha were pro-Russia and killed by Ukrainians after the Russiana retreated two weeks ago (the Russian line is that they already left March 20).

It's mad. I've looked at some Facebook comments on news articles from Danish media and you have Danes suggesting Ukraine should just surrender and that it's all about the Azov Battalion or whatever. Basically saying that Russia are waging a legitimate war because of the Azov Battalion. Which begs the question if it's alright for Russia to invade Denmark (or any other country) because we have a few unsavoury characters? And whether we should just surrender should it happen?

 

[Max_United]

It's mad. I've looked at some Facebook comments on news articles from Danish media and you have Danes suggesting Ukraine should just surrender and that it's all about the Azov Battalion or whatever. Basically saying that Russia are waging a legitimate war because of the Azov Battalion. Which begs the question if it's alright for Russia to invade Denmark (or any other country) because we have a few unsavoury characters? And whether we should just surrender should it happen?

By that logic Russia should have been occupied itself long ago, they used to have a flourishing neo-Nazi movement in the first 2 decades after the fall of the Soviet Union, the members of which have since been partly incorporated into the state (their head of space agency used to be a prominent neo-nazi activist and politician ffs).

 

[TMDaines]

Pretty clever, framing the Ukranians pushing invaders out of their country as a "disruption in peace negotiations and escalating violence". Might seems strange on the verge of nonsensical to some in the West, but I'm sure in Russia the media coverage will make it look like Ukraine is instead trying to push into pro-Russian areas (of which there are fewer everyday).

I'm a little surprised the propaganda boys didn't claim that Ukrainian soldiers killed the people in Bucha. But then they only have so many resources to produce propaganda, and can't be as fast as actual news.

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[TMDaines]

I’m glad many of the UK papers went all-in on depicting the atrocities on the front pages to sway popular opinion. Hopefully the political will follows up.

 

[Sarni]

It's mad. I've looked at some Facebook comments on news articles from Danish media and you have Danes suggesting Ukraine should just surrender and that it's all about the Azov Battalion or whatever. Basically saying that Russia are waging a legitimate war because of the Azov Battalion. Which begs the question if it's alright for Russia to invade Denmark (or any other country) because we have a few unsavoury characters? And whether we should just surrender should it happen?

Similar here, more and more voices coming on our social media supporting Russia and blaming Ukraine for atrocities. It was expected, these are mostly the same people who were previously experts on COVID and vaccines. Some of them are genuine idiots who fall for propaganda, some are hired trolls/bots with the purpose of destabilizing society and splitting views. All countries have their share of morons.

 

[nimic]

The only thing to come out of that meeting should be aforced recusal of Russia to any Ukraine-related matter at the UN followed by the full revoking of Russia's veto power once and for all. Feck their status as a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

If that happens, Russia might leave the UN completely, and then we're looking at the League of Nations again. It might be satisfying, but it would be dangerous too.

 

[Dans]

German colleagues of mine here commenting on the fact that apparently the US continues to buy Russian oil, which will ironically help them power the ships across the atlantic delivering the LPG they will frack and sell to Europe now that Nordstream 2 is no more.

 

[MadMike]

German colleagues of mine here commenting on the fact that apparently the US continues to buy Russian oil, which will ironically help them power the ships across the atlantic delivering the LPG they will frack and sell to Europe now that Nordstream 2 is no more.

What their source? Biden banned purchases of energy
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...f-russian-oil-liquefied-natural-gas-and-coal/

 

[Snowjoe]

I do hope us western nations hold ourselves to the same standards we are rightly holding Russia to on killing civilians when we go air striking Middle Eastern countries again

 

[maniak]

I do hope us western nations hold ourselves to the same standards we are rightly holding Russia to on killing civilians when we go air striking Middle Eastern countries again

I'm sure we will...

 

[Rhyme Animal]

I don't even know how bad it's going to be in the future when deepfakes made with AI will allow countries to make entire productions to fake the truth beyond what normal people can see through.

My first thought was ‘that’s terrifying’, my second thought was ‘it could be happening already on some level’.

We live in dystopian times.

 

[2cents]

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[Stookie]

I'm sure we will...

Might be better in the whataboutism thread

 

[maniak]

Might be better in the whataboutism thread

I hate that thread.

 

[Stookie]

I hate that thread.

sorry dude I quoted the wrong person

 

[stefan92]

What their source? Biden banned purchases of energy
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...f-russian-oil-liquefied-natural-gas-and-coal/

Probably just not aware of that development. US hypocrisy was big news when it was suggested Germany should import LNG from the US instead of Russian gas. At the time the discussion started the US showed no intention to stop their oil imports, their later decision to stop imprts from Russia wasn't that big of a topic

You have to keep in mind that a lot of Germans are quite skeptical of the US, so it was probably just a case of confirmation bias.

 

[Carolina Red]

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[harms]

You work for Putin?

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The main line is still that it's fake (propaganda found on one of the videos a corpse "moving his hand"* and another corpse "sitting up in a rear-view mirror"**). Although as always they try to introduce multiple theories, so there are also theories of civilian simply dying in a cross-fire; Ukrainian nationalists killing their own etc.

*he didn't
** he didn't

 

[Zehner]

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Jesus. How indoctrined do you have to be to believe this shit. I mean.. even considering how exposed those people were to Putin's propaganda. Surely you have to become skeptical when Ukraine goes from being a Western oriented but still culturally close country with many native Russians living there, maintaining friendships and family bonds with people living in Russia, to Nazi-Germany within a few weeks. You have to be so ignorant to not realize how much the narrative has changed from the beginning of this "special military operation".

Nobody can tell me that those people don't secretely know what is happening but just refuse to admit it to themselves. I assume that those who still support Putin in Russia do so out of cognitive dissonances. Tuning on him would mean acknowledging that you were wrong all along and supported a fascist.

Bit reminiscent of post-WW2 Germans who claimed they never knew what happened. Come on.

 

[stefan92]

Surely you have to become skeptical when Ukraine goes from being a Western oriented but still culturally close country with many native Russians living there, maintaining friendships and family bonds with people living in Russia, to Nazi-Germany within a few weeks. You have to be so ignorant to not realize how much the narrative has changed from the beginning of this "special military operation".

Keep in mind that we in the West want to destroy Russia which is more or less synonymous to being a Nazi for the Russians (according to Russian propaganda). The step isn't as big as you make it sound.

 

[Zehner]

Keep in mind that we in the West want to destroy Russia which is more or less synonymous to being a Nazi for the Russians (according to Russian propaganda). The step isn't as big as you make it sound.

Yeah, but the change in narrative is still there. Ideally propaganda shouldn't be contradicting itself. I believe in the end it propaganda just makes it easier for you to believe what you want to believe. It's goal is not to convince but to confirm.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

If that happens, Russia might leave the UN completely, and then we're looking at the League of Nations again. It might be satisfying, but it would be dangerous too.

For the record, it would not be the first time that a country has been in a sitution of withdrawing itself from the United Nations. Indonesia was in that exact same position in 1965 before a coup later that year reversed the original withdrawal. The Philippines nearly went there too because President Pineapple Face doesn't like international rules against extrajudicial killings, but they didn't because there is just too much to lose.

In any case, Russia is outlawing itself in front of the world at the moment. As one nation within the world's parliament, Russia is like that random unruly Westminster MP in need of tasting a put-down or even getting kicked out by John Bercow for disrespecting the rules.

 

[stefan92]

Yeah, but the change in narrative is still there. Ideally propaganda shouldn't be contradicting itself. I believe in the end it propaganda just makes it easier for you to believe what you want to believe. It's goal is not to convince but to confirm.

True, but I don't think it contradicts itself. In the opposite I even think this change of the narrative is a somewhat elegant explanation for the difficulties the Russian army has experienced. Read it as "look, the situation in Ukraine is much much worse than we thought, so we have to take much more and more drastic measures than we originally believed to be necessary".

 

[Ekkie Thump]

I do hope us western nations hold ourselves to the same standards we are rightly holding Russia to on killing civilians when we go air striking Middle Eastern countries again

If one good thing comes out of the horror of all this I think it might be that the appetite for us invading foreign lands as an attacking force becomes greatly diminished. You'd think it should.

 

[Revan]

If that happens, Russia might leave the UN completely, and then we're looking at the League of Nations again. It might be satisfying, but it would be dangerous too.

In any case, it is a theoretical debate. There is no mechanism to remove a permanent member of the security council.

 

[stefan92]

In any case, it is a theoretical debate. There is no mechanism to remove a permanent member of the security council.

There might be the loophole that Russia just assumed the Soviet seat in the council. Why not give that to another ex Soviet state?

 

[nimic]

There might be the loophole that Russia just assumed the Soviet seat in the council. Why not give that to another ex Soviet state?

The other ex-Soviet states agreed, so that probably won't be possible. Though the PRC did take the ROCs position in the council based on the will of the General Assembly, so maybe there's some procedure that means the General Assembly can force it through. I doubt it, though, and it's not happening anyway.

 

[GlastonSpur]

The only thing to come out of that meeting should be a forced recusal of Russia to any Ukraine-related matter at the UN followed by the full revoking of Russia's veto power once and for all. Feck their status as a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

Is there a mechanism for removing a country as permanent member of the UN Security Council? If so, what is it?

 

[MTF]

Is there a mechanism for removing a country as permanent member of the UN Security Council? If so, what is it?

You would have to amend the UN Charter, and that requires 2/3 votes in the General Assembly and all 5 permanent Security Council members, meaning Russia has a veto.

As one sign of how hard it is to amend the Charter, it still says USSR and Republic of China (which originally was Taiwan) are permanent members of the SC.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I do hope us western nations hold ourselves to the same standards we are rightly holding Russia to on killing civilians when we go air striking Middle Eastern countries again

There's a difference between an air-strike that hits a military target but also unintentionally kills some civilians, and the deliberate shooting/execution of civilians.

 

[GlastonSpur]

You would have to amend the UN Charter, and that requires 2/3 votes in the General Assembly and all 5 permanent Security Council members, meaning Russia has a veto.

As one sign of how hard it is to amend the Charter, it still says USSR and Republic of China (which originally was Taiwan) are permanent members of the SC.

Who has objected to dropping the term USSR and replacing it with Russian Federation? The Russians themselves?

 

[GlastonSpur]

Similar here, more and more voices coming on our social media supporting Russia and blaming Ukraine for atrocities. It was expected, these are mostly the same people who were previously experts on COVID and vaccines. Some of them are genuine idiots who fall for propaganda, some are hired trolls/bots with the purpose of destabilizing society and splitting views. All countries have their share of morons.

And some - like many Trump supporters - are now actively opposed to genuine democracy and want rule by an authoritarian dictator to replace it ... simply on the grounds that a dictator's decisions will pander to their prejudices.

Europe needs to get its act together fast, because one day soon - if Trump or someone like him gains the US presidency - we might might wake up to find that the USA has pulled out of NATO, more or less abolished democracy inside the USA, and sided with Putin and every other dictator on the planet.

 

[Zehner]

True, but I don't think it contradicts itself. In the opposite I even think this change of the narrative is a somewhat elegant explanation for the difficulties the Russian army has experienced. Read it as "look, the situation in Ukraine is much much worse than we thought, so we have to take much more and more drastic measures than we originally believed to be necessary".

Yes, that's what I meant with cognitive dissonances. They invent scenarios that would explain the events but they're so absurd. You have to want to believe it to actually buy into it. Basicall be willing to accept every explanation as long as you don't have to question your preset world views. But nobody can tell me that deep down you don't realize that you are lying to yourself or more precisely let others lie in your face. And the resemblence to Germans commenting on the atrocities of the Nazi regime post WW2 are striking. I guess it is just human nature.

 

[GlastonSpur]

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[stefan92]

Yes, that's what I meant with cognitive dissonances. They invent scenarios that would explain the events but they're so absurd. You have to want to believe it to actually buy into it. Basicall be willing to accept every explanation as long as you don't have to question your preset world views. But nobody can tell me that deep down you don't realize that you are lying to yourself or more precisely let others lie in your face. And the resemblence to Germans commenting on the atrocities of the Nazi regime post WW2 are striking. I guess it is just human nature.

Looks like we mostly agree. However I still think that you overestimate how absurd it has to look to people who just know that world view. In the end we are disagreeing over how much responsibility everyone has to take for such events. I'm happy to keep it that way in this threat, as that opens a whole large philosophical discussion over human nature (like you said).

Nonetheless it looks like the bottom line is, the Russian people won't revolt (soon) against Putin's rule and we can't put our hopes on them. Decisive victory for Ukraine seems to be the only way to end this without a full blown genocide.

 

[GlastonSpur]

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