Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
Is there a feasible non violent resolution for Crimea? I ask specially to those who know more about the region's history and their people's point of view, like @harms.

For example, is there a chance that maybe one of the following solutions could appear in an eventual peace treaty?

1. Crimea as a UN sponsored protectorate, followed by a 10 year deferred referendum on the region's future.
2. Draw a soft land border that allows both countries to get their strategic goals (de facto control of their borders, secured water supply, free access to all ports, etc) instead of their military goals.

I'm aware that both scenarios would be rejected by both countries as of now, but I'm curious about the crimeans stance since we don't hear a lot from them.
It obviously depends a lot on how the war goes and if Putin manages to stay in power (and whenever his eventual successor would be one of his followers or someone with directly opposite views on the foreign politics in general).

I really don’t see any realistic scenario where this situation resolves without further violence. Ideally you’d have a proper lawful referendum at some point but it still won’t be fair as all of the sources of alternative political information are blocked by the Russian government and the people have been brainwashed by the Russian (and anti-Ukrainian) propaganda for the past 8 years.

But even if they weren’t, I can’t really remember the last time where a country willingly accepted independence of one of its states (and I’m talking about both Ukraine in 2014 and Russia in 2022 or further in the future). Possibly it would’ve happened in UK but the Scottish referendum didn’t go that way (although I’m really uninformed on the matter, just wanted to point that out before any of you guys go to correct me). I do believe, for example, that Crimea probably would’ve still voted to join Russia in 2014 if that referendum was done fair & square under the UN supervision, but we’ll never get to know now — and you can’t just roll back all that 8 years of Russia’s persistent attacks on Ukrainian sovereignty. And obviously the way it was done in reality makes the whole “referendum” thing null and void.
 

klsv

Full Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2016
Messages
1,913
Could swear they've tried to exchange this dude several times already, for the British POW's at least? Could it be that he's not as important as we thought?


Would you? I think I would…
So she could call it a special sexual operation that she conducted out of pity afterwards? No thanks.
 
Last edited:

frostbite

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,241
Why are French, German, and Italian politicians trying to wheel and deal land and ceasefires in Ukraine as if it’s their choice?

Why are we discussing what land should the Ukrainians give to Russia to end this war?

Only Ukrainians should decide. The rest of us should just support them, like the US and UK do. It is better for the world if the invaders lose this war. It may teach other potential invaders that they will pay a high price for their foolishness. If Russia gets Crimea, or Donbass, or anything at all, it will only teach other dictators that an unprovoked invasion wins you land. If Russia loses badly, and pays reparations, then there is the hope that for a long time in the future we will have almost no wars because no one else will dare invade anyone.

So, again, why do some EU politicians try so hard to find a way to please Putin? We should not care about finding a way out for Putin. Putin already has a very easy way out of this by simply declaring win, saying that they killed all the nazis in Ukraine, and withdrawing all his forces from Ukraine (including Crimea). Ordinary Russians will believe all that bullshit because they already believe all these lies of their TV, or at least they pretend to (which is the same thing in practice). We should not give a damn about what Putin and the Russians want or desire, they have zero justification for all the destruction of lives and properties that they have caused.
 

GlastonSpur

Also disliked on an Aston Villa forum
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
17,716
Supports
Spurs
Yet another failed attempt by the Russians to cross that same river:

 

The United

Full Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2015
Messages
5,794
They should let them just enough to cross the river and then cut off from behind and destroy every unit that spills over. I am talking shit of course with all my RTS gaming experiences.

Letting Russians believe that they still have offensive capability where they are shit at could still be the best thing for Ukrainians. It might be more difficult for them when Russian troops start fortifying their defence on the other side of the river instead.
 

NotThatSoph

Full Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2019
Messages
3,781
Why are French, German, and Italian politicians trying to wheel and deal land and ceasefires in Ukraine as if it’s their choice?

Why are we discussing what land should the Ukrainians give to Russia to end this war?

Only Ukrainians should decide. The rest of us should just support them, like the US and UK do. It is better for the world if the invaders lose this war. It may teach other potential invaders that they will pay a high price for their foolishness. If Russia gets Crimea, or Donbass, or anything at all, it will only teach other dictators that an unprovoked invasion wins you land. If Russia loses badly, and pays reparations, then there is the hope that for a long time in the future we will have almost no wars because no one else will dare invade anyone.

So, again, why do some EU politicians try so hard to find a way to please Putin? We should not care about finding a way out for Putin. Putin already has a very easy way out of this by simply declaring win, saying that they killed all the nazis in Ukraine, and withdrawing all his forces from Ukraine (including Crimea). Ordinary Russians will believe all that bullshit because they already believe all these lies of their TV, or at least they pretend to (which is the same thing in practice). We should not give a damn about what Putin and the Russians want or desire, they have zero justification for all the destruction of lives and properties that they have caused.
What politicians are you talking about?
 

RedDevilQuebecois

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2021
Messages
8,100
They should let them just enough to cross the river and then cut off from behind and destroy every unit that spills over. I am talking shit of course with all my RTS gaming experiences.

Letting Russians believe that they still have offensive capability where they are shit at could still be the best thing for Ukrainians. It might be more difficult for them when Russian troops start fortifying their defence on the other side of the river instead.
Even so, there comes a time when an offensive is about the only way to make the cracks even more evident on the opponent's side. When the North Vietnamese led the Tet Offensive in 1968, that showed the cracks in the US support for South Vietnam and pushed the latter two more or less on the defensive afterwards. South Vietnam became a nation in turmoil both during and in the aftermath of the offensive as the following years became a slow death for the government. That could well be the case in the Donbas and in Luhansk should the Ukrainians attack and push their way through, so much that it shows locals that Russia CANNOT defend the enclaves properly.
 

The United

Full Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2015
Messages
5,794
Even so, there comes a time when an offensive is about the only way to make the cracks even more evident on the opponent's side. When the North Vietnamese led the Tet Offensive in 1968, that showed the cracks in the US support for South Vietnam and pushed the latter two more or less on the defensive afterwards. South Vietnam became a nation in turmoil both during and in the aftermath of the offensive as the following years became a slow death for the government. That could well be the case in the Donbas and in Luhansk should the Ukrainians attack and push their way through, so much that it shows locals that Russia CANNOT defend the enclaves properly.
I just think Ukrainians need a bit more time before they can do significant counterattacks with more new weapons coming in and more troops getting trained.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
Could swear they've tried to exchange this dude several times already, for the British POW's at least? Could it be that he's not as important as we thought?
Someone from Britain has suggested that move or maybe it has appeared in Daily Mail or something… but, surprisingly, Ukraine’s main priority is not rescuing British POW.

Although whenever Putin will go for that exchange (1900+ people for 1) is another matter. Maybe if they add some of POW that were captured by Ukraine?
 

Water Melon

Guest
I just think Ukrainians need a bit more time before they can do significant counterattacks with more new weapons coming in and more troops getting trained.
Exactly. The Ukranian commandment want to avoid heavy loss of lives, thus full-scale counter-attack is not considered at this stage. Long-range artillery seems to be the best option available for now. Wonder if more Russian ships will be targeted to make sure that the rushists are not allowed to build fortresses supported by their navy.
 

NicolaSacco

Full Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2016
Messages
2,321
Supports
Ipswich
I just think Ukrainians need a bit more time before they can do significant counterattacks with more new weapons coming in and more troops getting trained.
Is the general consensus that this is what’s happening though? I.e. is Ukraine both absorbing their current losses AND getting stronger as the summer goes on? I hope that this is the case, I’m just not sure.
 

frostbite

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
3,241
What politicians are you talking about?
Scholz, Macron, Draghi.

"These calls are idiotic and damaging..."


https://www.politico.eu/article/zelenskyy-macron-asked-ukraine-concession-help-putin-save-face/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/italys-draghi-calls-urgent-ceasefire-ukraine-2022-05-19/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...erating-frances-macron-over-putin-2022-04-04/


<<"One should not negotiate with criminals, one should fight them...Nobody negotiated with Hitler. Would you negotiate with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot?" he added.>>
 

TwoSheds

More sheds (and tiles) than you, probably
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
12,966
Is the general consensus that this is what’s happening though? I.e. is Ukraine both absorbing their current losses AND getting stronger as the summer goes on? I hope that this is the case, I’m just not sure.
It doesn't necessarily matter of course. What matters is whether they are getting relatively stronger than the Russians, and judging by the scale of alleged problems on the Russian side then they will be.
 

NicolaSacco

Full Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2016
Messages
2,321
Supports
Ipswich
It doesn't necessarily matter of course. What matters is whether they are getting relatively stronger than the Russians, and judging by the scale of alleged problems on the Russian side then they will be.
Yeah that’s true, and basically the definition of an attritional war. But yes i guess my question remains. Is Ukraine currently getting stronger relative to Russia? Lots of variables and not an easy question to answer.
 

TwoSheds

More sheds (and tiles) than you, probably
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
12,966
Yeah that’s true, and basically the definition of an attritional war. But yes i guess my question remains. Is Ukraine currently getting stronger relative to Russia? Lots of variables and not an easy question to answer.
Well if the info we're fed is true then yes, definitely. I do tend to take Twitter et al with a pinch of salt though.
 

Walrus

Oppressed White Male
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
11,165
Scholz, Macron, Draghi.

"These calls are idiotic and damaging..."


https://www.politico.eu/article/zelenskyy-macron-asked-ukraine-concession-help-putin-save-face/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/italys-draghi-calls-urgent-ceasefire-ukraine-2022-05-19/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...erating-frances-macron-over-putin-2022-04-04/


<<"One should not negotiate with criminals, one should fight them...Nobody negotiated with Hitler. Would you negotiate with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot?" he added.>>

I remember (much) earlier in this thread advocating for this kind of hard line approach, only to be accused of being a warmonger by various on here. It remains the case though - Putin and Russia only respect strength. Talk of concessions and ceasefires - hell, pretty much any kind of talk - will be seen as weakness.

Next time Lavrov or whoever starts talking about nukes, they should be reminded that other countries also have nukes, and that unlike Russia, their arsenals are probably full maintained and ready to go.
 

NicolaSacco

Full Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2016
Messages
2,321
Supports
Ipswich
I remember (much) earlier in this thread advocating for this kind of hard line approach, only to be accused of being a warmonger by various on here. It remains the case though - Putin and Russia only respect strength. Talk of concessions and ceasefires - hell, pretty much any kind of talk - will be seen as weakness.

Next time Lavrov or whoever starts talking about nukes, they should be reminded that other countries also have nukes, and that unlike Russia, their arsenals are probably full maintained and ready to go.
The problem is, an immediate ceasefire would stop civilian deaths in the short term, and I fully understand how important that is. No ceasefire inevitably means more innocent women and children will die.

However there are longer term factors here. A significant degradation of the Russian army means they won’t be able to do this again any time soon. And regardless of the spin coming out of Russia there are going to be lots of high up people in the army and military who will remember this like the US remembers Vietnam. A significant and overt defeat of Russia could ensure that we have a generation of relative peace in Eastern Europe, by which time European reliance on Russian fossil fuels will be taken out of the equation.
 

Offsideagain

Full Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
1,714
Location
Cheshire
Putin’s objective of keeping NATO from Russia’s borders has backfired big time as Sweden and Finland will now join NATO and ,if he takes the whole of Ukraine, again he will have more countries who are members. Conclusion, he did this out of vanity to play the hard man especially if the rumours about his failing health are true. I hope someone in the Kremlin will see sense and usurp Putin.
 

Cheimoon

Made of cheese
Scout
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
14,339
Location
Canada
Supports
no-one in particular
Scholz, Macron, Draghi.

"These calls are idiotic and damaging..."


https://www.politico.eu/article/zelenskyy-macron-asked-ukraine-concession-help-putin-save-face/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/italys-draghi-calls-urgent-ceasefire-ukraine-2022-05-19/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...erating-frances-macron-over-putin-2022-04-04/


<<"One should not negotiate with criminals, one should fight them...Nobody negotiated with Hitler. Would you negotiate with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot?" he added.>>
I remember (much) earlier in this thread advocating for this kind of hard line approach, only to be accused of being a warmonger by various on here. It remains the case though - Putin and Russia only respect strength. Talk of concessions and ceasefires - hell, pretty much any kind of talk - will be seen as weakness.

Next time Lavrov or whoever starts talking about nukes, they should be reminded that other countries also have nukes, and that unlike Russia, their arsenals are probably full maintained and ready to go.
The problem is, an immediate ceasefire would stop civilian deaths in the short term, and I fully understand how important that is. No ceasefire inevitably means more innocent women and children will die.

However there are longer term factors here. A significant degradation of the Russian army means they won’t be able to do this again any time soon. And regardless of the spin coming out of Russia there are going to be lots of high up people in the army and military who will remember this like the US remembers Vietnam. A significant and overt defeat of Russia could ensure that we have a generation of relative peace in Eastern Europe, by which time European reliance on Russian fossil fuels will be taken out of the equation.
The US Secretary of Defense called for a ceasefire just last week as well. Just to give some context before it's all exclusively on the usual suspects again (plus Italy this time).

(As @NotThatSoph has been pointing out before.)