Safer Future: Shaw or Wan Bissaka?

[bosnian_red]

So I think it's blatantly obvious that our fullbacks are a big issue right now. We're a big club who aspires to challenge for titles, and you can't have players who are that limited on the ball in key positions. Time and time again we have Wan Bissaka or Shaw/Williams wide open on one flank and they do so little with it given the space. The question maybe immediately is who is better out of the two of them in terms of keeping in the starting 11 and strengthening the other side?

Shaw has his injury problems and his final ball is terrible, but is far better on the ball and in terms of his ball progression. He's very decent defensively and probably better positionally/in the air, though falls behind Wan Bissaka on others. Wan Bissaka on the other hand was just purchased for pretty big money, is really good at shutting down opposing wingers when tasked to do it, and is probably a better crosser than Shaw is, while being much worse in his overall on the ball game and really struggling with that. Guess you also have to look at what the options are. Feel like there are a good amount of quality attacking left backs right now, with very few right backs. But I would say we would be a far better team if we had a Shaw on both sides compared to having a Wan Bissaka on both sides, simply because of how much better Shaw is in terms of the first 2/3 of the pitch (he's actually really good for ball progression).

So who is the better player for a big team for what we want to build, and which of the 2 should be the position we strengthen? And who do we go for?

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I’ve done some leg work for anyone wanting to debate this. The below stats focus on ball progression, offensive passing and goal creating actions. This is a good barometer to show actual offensive contributions.

AWB (PL only as CBA to do the lot)

Minutes 3070 (34.11games)
Progressive passing distance 9478 (278/90)
Progressive passes 183 (5.36/90)
Passes into penalty area 20 (0.59/90)
Crosses into penalty area 10 (0.29/90)
Assists 4 (0.12/90)
Expected assists 2.9
Shot creating actions 47 (1.38/90)
Goal creating actions 6 (0.18/90)

Shaw (PL)

Minutes 1733 (19.26 games)
Progressive passing distance 6221 (323/90)
Progressive passes 136 (7.06/90)
Passes into penalty area 25 (1.30/90)
Crosses into penalty area 6 (0.31/90)
Assists 0
Expected assists 1.3
Shot creating actions 42 (2.18/90)
Goal creating actions 1 (0.05/90)

Shaw is the more progressive passer (though he did play on the better side of our attack with Rashford) however oddly he has less assists and less expected assists? So he gets us into the box more but is not setting up as many goalscoring opportunities as AWB. He does however create enough to enable on average 2 shots opportunities per 90.

For comparison here is Trent Alexander Arnold

Minutes 3175 (35.27 games)
Progressive passing distance 19995 (567/90)
Progressive passes 459 (13.01/90)
Passes into penalty area 90 (2.55/90)
Crosses into penalty area 30 (0.85/90)
Assists 13 (0.37/90)
Expected assists 9.6 (0.27/90)
Shot creating actions 151 (4.28/90)
Goal creating actions 24 (0.68/90)

Now I know they play in different systems but things that stand out. He makes more progressive passes than Shaw and AWB combined, double the amount into the penalty area of them combined from both passes and crosses, triple the assists, 1.7x shot created actions and 3.4x the amount of them for actual goals created.

Basically TAA alone does well over double the amount of offensive contribution than both our starting full backs.

 

[romufc]

Basically TAA alone does well over double the amount of offensive contribution than both our starting full backs.

Now compare Liverpool 3 in midfield to our 3 in midfield.

 

[Skills]

Now compare Liverpool 3 in midfield to our 3 in midfield.

Exactly.

We have two fantastic forward thinking midfielders. The team should be set up to get as much as possible out of them. Stop pining for attacking full backs because they wouldn't work in this team anyway without dropping one or both of Pogba and Bruno.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Both.
AWB just needs better coaching

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Now compare Liverpool 3 in midfield to our 3 in midfield.

Not doing it for you. https://fbref.com/en/

It’s an interesting comparison to have made and I think highlights why so many negative fans berate AWB and Shaw as not being good enough.

Personally I think they are fine for how we set up but it is quite amazing how much more other fullbacks offer in different systems.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Exactly.

We have two fantastic forward thinking midfielders. The team should be set up to get as much as possible out of them. Stop pining for attacking full backs because they wouldn't work in this team anyway without dropping one or both of Pogba and Bruno.

I’m not pining after attacking full backs I’m merely enabling people to compare their attacking stats to one another and to the leagues best.

I personally am happy to have them both in the side as I like you understand that having Bruno and Pogba means you need more defensive solidity. I think AWB and Shaw are both good enough for our system but was just quite shocked at how much more creative a fullback could be by comparison.

 

[Van Piorsing]

There's no use with Shaw when he's injured every few months and then needs another month to return to full fitness.

AWB all the way as he can play majority of games in the regular season and when you play often you gain way more experience... pretty much the key to stable development.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Both good enough defensively. Not convinced either are on the ball though. Shaw definitely works well with Rashford though where as AWB doesn't seem to work with anyone at club. Not Daniel James and not Greenwood.

 

[roonster09]

I would keep Shaw but his fitness record is very poor.

AWB is better defensively when he is up against any winger/wide forward but Shaw is capable of playing as CB which shows how good alroud defender he is. But when we have to defend against tricky opponents like Sterling, I would pick AWB.

Overall I would think Shaw is better player as he is better footballer. He has fantastic first touch, very good dribbler, plays good passes and he is good header of the ball too. He lacks final pass/crossing ability, apart from that he is very good.

 

[Massive Spanner]

People can say AWB is only 22 but my god he's so bad on the ball that I don't really think it matters. it's not like he's a really talented footballer struggling for consistency or learning his trade, he isn't. He can defend and tackle pretty well, sure, but he looks incapable of becoming a good attacking player. I genuinely think if we hadn't just spent £50m on him nobody would be defending against how poor an actual footballer he is.

Shaw, in fairness, has always looked like a genuinely talented player, he's just been cocked over by a mix of injuries and I guess his own laziness (well, if rumours and previously managers are to be believed). I still think he's a hell of a lot more use to a club aspiring to win trophies than AWB is, he is unfortunately just not very dependable, but maybe that will change.

 

[Skills]

I’m not pining after attacking full backs I’m merely enabling people to compare their attacking stats to one another and to the leagues best.

I personally am happy to have them both in the side as I like you understand that having Bruno and Pogba means you need more defensive solidity. I think AWB and Shaw are both good enough for our system but was just quite shocked at how much more creative a fullback could be by comparison.

Tbf that wasn't directed towards you. It's in general towards who are constantly asking for MORE players without even attempting to get the best out of the ones already at the club.

 

[E-mal]

They are both shite and won't be bothered if they are replaced at once but what is obvious is that one has played double the minutes of the other and if you can't stay fit what use are you?

Get a left back this summer and get a right back next or hope Laird is up to it.
They are all replaceable and that says much after spending combined 85m pounds or more on the both of them.

 

[OleBoiii]

AWB is the more useful player overall. If Shaw could improve his fitness, then it would be fairly even.

But at the end of the day both are good fullbacks with room for improvement offensively. Under ideal circumstances, neither player would feel that their position is safe. It just so happens that there are arguably 3 other positions that needs to be addressed first: RW, DM, CB(?). Therefore they are safe for now.

 

[E-mal]

Exactly.

We have two fantastic forward thinking midfielders. The team should be set up to get as much as possible out of them. Stop pining for attacking full backs because they wouldn't work in this team anyway without dropping one or both of Pogba and Bruno.

At least get players that don't shit themselves when with the ball.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Those two are fine and they're much better defensively than a lot of opposing full-backs. Don't know if you've been watching the same games but United had 46 shots in their last two games. We scored 22 goals in 9 league games after lockdown and missed plenty more chances. Chance creation isn't a major problem.

One of the problems has been since Shaw got injured, Brandon Williams isn't good enough and has upset the backline with rash defending. So possibly need better back-up full-backs since Dalot is not an option evidently.

 

[VivaObertan]

There's no use with Shaw when he's injured every few months and then needs another month to return to full fitness.

AWB all the way as he can play majority of games in the regular season and when you play often you gain way more experience... pretty much the key to stable development.

This for me. We're well stocked on the right with AWB, Williams, Dalot, TFM plus Laird coming through. On the left we're dependent on Shaw who has an injury record Phil Jones would be proud of, as well as him requiring 3-4 games to get going a la Rooney.

 

[TMDaines]

Both.
AWB just needs better coaching

 

[romufc]

Not doing it for you. https://fbref.com/en/

It’s an interesting comparison to have made and I think highlights why so many negative fans berate AWB and Shaw as not being good enough.

Personally I think they are fine for how we set up but it is quite amazing how much more other fullbacks offer in different systems.

I didn't really mean for you to do it because we all know our midfield is alot more creative.

People pick the best bits of every team, we should have this, have that, this is football, players have weaknesses.

Our full backs will be fine. I don't care if they dont score or assist as long as they can keep the ball and pass short and keep our build up play going. We will score goals anyway.

Liverpool's creativity comes from their width, Trent and Robertson take free kicks, they score from free kicks. Their numbers will be higher, just like how Bruno's numbers are inflated by set pieces.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Tbf that wasn't directed towards you. It's in general towards who are constantly asking for MORE players without even attempting to get the best out of the ones already at the club.

Ah fair enough then. Perhaps I should have made clearer in my original post my stance I just think it’s quite remarkable how different some teams set up their fullbacks.

We absolutely should stick with Shaw and AWB. I wouldn’t mind another left footed LB and move Brandon to be RB understudy until Laird comes in and takes over however it’s not a priority.

 

[romufc]

Exactly.

We have two fantastic forward thinking midfielders. The team should be set up to get as much as possible out of them. Stop pining for attacking full backs because they wouldn't work in this team anyway without dropping one or both of Pogba and Bruno.

Imagine trent in this team crossing the ball when only Martial is in the box? Liverpool play that style which works for them.

We need to find a style that works for us.

We are picking literally the best RB in delivering crosses, whos system is suited to him.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I didn't really mean for you to do it because we all know our midfield is alot more creative.

People pick the best bits of every team, we should have this, have that, this is football, players have weaknesses.

Our full backs will be fine. I don't care if they dont score or assist as long as they can keep the ball and pass short and keep our build up play going. We will score goals anyway.

Liverpool's creativity comes from their width, Trent and Robertson take free kicks, they score from free kicks. Their numbers will be higher, just like how Bruno's numbers are inflated by set pieces.

Apologies your initial response came across quite hostile.

I completely agree people are happy to cherry pick the best of other players from other teams however I do understand having seen the figures why people are so adamant they aren’t good enough. I completely disagree with those who believe AWB and Shaw aren’t up to scratch but you can see why someone who doesn’t understand our style of play would be critical of them.

 

[Van Piorsing]

This for me. We're well stocked on the right with AWB, Williams, Dalot, TFM plus Laird coming through. On the left we're dependent on Shaw who has an injury record Phil Jones would be proud of, as well as him requiring 3-4 games to get going a la Rooney.

Maybe I'm bit naive, but Williams has potential to become superb defender, even if he gets injured he recovers fast and is eager to play with aggression. Definitely has potential to learn more as he simply has the energy and endurance Shaw will never have.

 

[E-mal]

Tbf that wasn't directed towards you. It's in general towards who are constantly asking for MORE players without even attempting to get the best out of the ones already at the club.

You can't get the best out of players that are injured neither can you from players that terrified of the round leather object.

 

[el3mel]

I can see us moving on from both in 3 years.

 

[VivaObertan]

Maybe I'm bit naive, but Williams has potential to become superb defender, even if he gets injured he recovers fast and is eager to play with aggression. Definitely has potential to learn more as he simply has the energy and endurance Shaw will never have.

Yeah I like him a lot but he really struggles not having a left foot and I believe this impacts our balance as a team.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Definitely Shaw needs upgrading, surprised this is even a debate. Shaw is marginally more progressive going forward, but still has little end product and isnt as reliable in defence either. His injury record is awful - I just checked and he has yet to reach 100 league appearances for us, which is frankly amazing after 6 seasons. He's only 25 still, so there's an outside chance he could improve for us, but I'm not convinced.

AWB on the other hand may be limited going forward, but he's so solid in defence that it makes up for it. He's been a really durable performer for us this season, not world class level and never will be, but very consistent. He's 22 and while he'll never be the new Cafu, he's shown improvement in attack this year already and Im hopeful he can improve more in the next couple of years.

I think if we got a really forward thinking left back it would ease the pressure on AWB, leaving him to do what he doest now, offer some straightforward support on the right and be a wall in defence. That would balance out the defence better and offer some decent width up front.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Yeah I like him a lot but he really struggles not having a left foot and I believe this impacts our balance as a team.

Yup, he needs to train that foot and maybe in 3 years he'll become more complete defender, but in that time we simply cannot use Shaw to fullest extent, we'll need someone stepping on the left... highly doubtful Mensah has what it takes.

 

[romufc]

Apologies your initial response came across quite hostile.

I completely agree people are happy to cherry pick the best of other players from other teams however I do understand having seen the figures why people are so adamant they aren’t good enough. I completely disagree with those who believe AWB and Shaw aren’t up to scratch but you can see why someone who doesn’t understand our style of play would be critical of them.

My bad, wasn't meant to be. I have seen your posts on the thread and they are quite balanced.

I also would like to give players more time. Shaw as we have seen when playing with the better attack, he is good going forward without the numbers to show for it.

With AWB, at the start I saw alot of potential, he had good ball control and passing, but I would not want to be too critical because this is his second full season, now he is is playing a different style to what we did at the start.

You cannot underestimate the mental tiredness of these players. The amount of criticism the team has come under during parts of the season, some of them won't be used to this, neither would have AWB been used to the plaudits he was getting.

Let him go have a couple weeks off, refresh his batteries, reflect and come back.

 

[SilentWitness]

People can say AWB is only 22 but my god he's so bad on the ball that I don't really think it matters. it's not like he's a really talented footballer struggling for consistency or learning his trade, he isn't.

At senior level he kind of is. This is only his 2nd full professional season (3rd overall but he only played around 7 games in the first of those 3 seasons) compared to Shaw who is only 3 years older but in comparison it is his 8th professional season - he's had 4 or 5 where he was the main starter and 3 seasons where he's had long term injuries/not been in favour as much.

Shaw has so much more experience than AWB at PL level let alone European level and AWB went from one full season at Palace where the expectation was to finish mid table compared to United where there was huge pressure to get top 4 which isn't easy to deal with for an experienced pro so for someone who is new to the club and only in the first year it's very difficult. Yeah, AWB needs a few things to work on but he has time and has the potential to do so.

People need to stop comparing every up and coming RB/LB to TAA too - that lad is a once in a lifetime type talent that doesn't come across often and it's unfair to be impatient with other talents because they are slow growers.

EDIT: Also the price thing with AWB - if you look at the Palace squad it's old as feck and they have barely any young talent coming through at all. Of course they are going to demand a huge fee for one of the only talents they've produced that is still very young and has a lot of potential.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Shaw is far better than any fullback at the club. He’s also better than any flavour of the month fullback we’d likely sign and everyone creams themselves over until a year later when they have a new name to talk about. We can go through the list of names mentioned here every year and see how the majority are conveniently never mentioned again as it turns out they aren’t much good.

 

[11reds]

For me, Shaw is more comfortable on the ball but his injuries and the time it takes him to get back up to speed after injury is worrying.

AWB is young and may end up being a centre half depending on how he develops. When we play teams with a top winger / wide player AWB is very good at limiting them. His distribution and attacking instincts are poor for a 50 million player. If a player of Di Maria's ilk was at the club now he would have a free pass in that he could concentrate fully on attack.

Maybe Laird might come through next year.

 

[Massive Spanner]

At senior level he kind of is. This is only his 2nd full professional season (3rd overall but he only played around 7 games in the first of those 3 seasons) compared to Shaw who is only 3 years older but in comparison it is his 8th professional season - he's had 4 or 5 where he was the main starter and 3 seasons where he's had long term injuries/not been in favour as much.

Shaw has so much more experience than AWB at PL level let alone European level and AWB went from one full season at Palace where the expectation was to finish mid table compared to United where there was huge pressure to get top 4 which isn't easy to deal with for an experienced pro so for someone who is new to the club and only in the first year it's very difficult. Yeah, AWB needs a few things to work on but he has time and has the potential to do so.

People need to stop comparing every up and coming RB/LB to TAA too - that lad is a once in a lifetime type talent that doesn't come across often and it's unfair to be impatient with other talents because they are slow growers.

Sure, but all that is baseless when you consider what I said. The bolded part is where I fundamentally disagree. I know players can "work on" aspects of their game but you can still tell when watching a 22 year old if they have the natural footballing ability to be a top player in their position. AWB is severely lacking as a footballer. He can't dribble, he's a decent but not great passer, his crossing is terrible, his link up play is non existent. He's a brilliant tackler and good at marking his man and that's about it. You can say it's his first full season here but funnily enough last summer most critics towards us signing him were saying that he was nothing special on the ball and it turns out that's true.

As I already stated, the difference between him and Shaw is that Shaw always looked like a really good footballer who needed to work on his fitness, positioning, consistency etc. - sadly he hasn't as of yet fulfilled his vast potential.

I'd also just like to clarify that I actually think Shaw is a really good full back, he's not the player I'd hoped he'd become but I think if he remained fit he'd easily be good enough for a top four side. The main thing holding him back is injuries, the main thing holding AWB back is that he's not good on the ball.

 

[romufc]

Shaw is far better than any fullback at the club. He’s also better than any flavour of the month fullback we’d likely sign and everyone creams themselves over until a year later when they have a new name to talk about. We can go through the list of names mentioned here every year and see how the majority are conveniently never mentioned again as it turns out they aren’t much good.

Agreed. Shaw is one of the better PL LB's.

He is 24! he is a very good defender and compliments Rashford on the left, just because he doesnt have Robertson level assists/ goals means he is crap? some people need to get a grip of themselves.

 

[Isotope]

Exactly.

We have two fantastic forward thinking midfielders. The team should be set up to get as much as possible out of them. Stop pining for attacking full backs because they wouldn't work in this team anyway without dropping one or both of Pogba and Bruno.

Lots of top teams have two creative midfielders, and still can accommodate at least one attacking FB.
Unless if you think Ole is a better manager than those top team's, and his style is the best one.

Ronaldo at Madrid has Marcelo as FB on his side. THere's no denying that having Marcelo was helping Ronaldo increase his attacking style.

Just imagine if they had this thinking of having defensive FB to "allow Madrid getting the best of Ronaldo"?

 

[redpatron]

Shaw is far better than any fullback at the club. He’s also better than any flavour of the month fullback we’d likely sign and everyone creams themselves over until a year later when they have a new name to talk about. We can go through the list of names mentioned here every year and see how the majority are conveniently never mentioned again as it turns out they aren’t much good.

hes our best defensive player by far, the team went to shite after he got hurt.

 

[sincher]

Good defenders. The problem is our 4-3-3 really requires much more of them in the attacking third.

 

[Rozay]

Injury permitting, Shaw will likely outlast AWB in the XI. Firstly, he’s better than him. Secondly, he is being pushed by Williams and Wan Bissaka has Laird coming behind him. I think Laird is far more capable than overtaking AWB than Williams is of overtaking Shaw.

The main question mark over Shaw is his fitness. He’s had two serious hamstring injuries this season alone, the first of which kept him out for about 4 months! - and this season is no anomaly. But he’s a good full-back, and one of our best players. He doesn’t offer much in the final third, but he’s very good in both the defensive third and the middle third.

 

[LARulz]

They are both good and wouldn't change either unless Davis, Alba or Robertson, TAA want to join.

They are good defensively but lack a bit going forward. I feel Shaw knows his limitations so does a good job making runs and keeping the ball moving, but he is also good at taking a risk in the forward spots. AWB going forward is a tragedy but I would not replace him as he can pass it off and create space. His defensive attributes are too important to dismiss

 

[romufc]

Injury permitting, Shaw will likely outlast AWB in the XI. Firstly, he’s better than him. Secondly, he is being pushed by Williams and Wan Bissaka has Laird coming behind him. I think Laird is far more capable than overtaking AWB than Williams is of overtaking Shaw.

Agreed, there is no reason to panic. We do not need to go spend money on a RB because as you said, we have Laird coming through, hopefully we can send him on loan this season have TFM as backup so Laird gets some experience.