Cheers! I think there are a few others as well.
Updating the list of notables: Ronaldo, Neymar, Mane, Henderson, Benzema, Kante, Fabinho
Saudi signing wave: What are the implications? Is it weakening the Premier League?
- Thread starter justsomebloke
- Start date
Updating the list of notables: Ronaldo, Neymar, Mane, Henderson, Benzema, Kante, Fabinho
That the heck is there to promote tourism except Mecca/Madina (religious tourist attractions).
That's a bit of a weird way to look at it isn't it?
They said its arguably the best outside of Europe, which means they would probably consider it to be within the top 3/5 in the world outside of Europe. I imagine their argument would be the quality of the players they've bought in the past 24 months, which include some clearly going for a payday but many who could still easily do (and were doing) a job at Europe's top clubs.
You saying they're not surely means you've got at least a few leagues in mind which are clearly leagues ahead of the Saudi league outside of Europe and I don't think its unreasonable therefore to ask you which those leagues are?
That's in motion since 20 years ago. I don't even think their primary revenue stream is oil anymore.
They own a % out of every big business on the planet, especially tech companies.
They're betting on their beaches, new cities etc, as well as hoping I imagine that when people come to watch sports, theyll hang around for a bit to do other stuff too.
How willing Europeans are to do that at least if they perceive hostility from the local population is a different matter.
It won't just change the quality of the EPL, it'll change the strength and landscape of European Football.
List of players who have jumped ship
List of players who have jumped ship
Fast forward a few years and they'll have most of the big players I'd imagine.
Same with other sports as well. Already doing it with Boxing/F1/Golf. Reckon they'll try and challenge the NBA/NFL next and no way that a kid out of college will sign a rookie contract in the NBA when they can walk into a Saudi team on $100m from day one!
Same with other sports as well. Already doing it with Boxing/F1/Golf. Reckon they'll try and challenge the NBA/NFL next and no way that a kid out of college will sign a rookie contract in the NBA when they can walk into a Saudi team on $100m from day one!
It will be incredibly difficult to grow the league and will take a lot of time. This will not be something that suddenly explodes just because they have shelled out enormous sums on average players and others that are in the twilights of their career.
The domestic market (usually, the highest paying market for a league) is fairly small. The average attendance to their games is about 9,000. In comparison, the English League One gets an average attendance across its teams of over 10,000. You can see that the demand for football is not comparable.
Drawing a market from abroad will also be difficult. There is only a limited amount of time that people can watch football, and there are loads of options already. A lot of people who are interested in leagues abroad would likely have already chosen a league/club to follow and will have no time to watch games from a new upcomer. Time is a limiting factor, so the Saudi League will have to target the kids around today to get them to become fans. Even if this is successful, it will take decades to build a reputation and following.
All that time, they are going to have to continue this type of expenditure. One window will not be enough; they will have to do this for 5 to 10 years to make any significant gains. This will carry a considerable risk of fatigue; the backers behind this may even just get bored of the whole thing before it ever really takes off.
The domestic market (usually, the highest paying market for a league) is fairly small. The average attendance to their games is about 9,000. In comparison, the English League One gets an average attendance across its teams of over 10,000. You can see that the demand for football is not comparable.
Drawing a market from abroad will also be difficult. There is only a limited amount of time that people can watch football, and there are loads of options already. A lot of people who are interested in leagues abroad would likely have already chosen a league/club to follow and will have no time to watch games from a new upcomer. Time is a limiting factor, so the Saudi League will have to target the kids around today to get them to become fans. Even if this is successful, it will take decades to build a reputation and following.
All that time, they are going to have to continue this type of expenditure. One window will not be enough; they will have to do this for 5 to 10 years to make any significant gains. This will carry a considerable risk of fatigue; the backers behind this may even just get bored of the whole thing before it ever really takes off.
When UEFA allow a Saudi club into the CL then yes it will probably weaken the PL. I say when, rather than if, because we all know football's governing bodies will sell out to the highest bidder and do whatever makes them them the most money.
Until then I don't see a huge number of players in their prime going out there. Most of the signings made so far are players over the hill and looking for a payday late in their careers.
Until then I don't see a huge number of players in their prime going out there. Most of the signings made so far are players over the hill and looking for a payday late in their careers.
The timing is pretty perfect. They'll help keep European football afloat in a really hard economic situation.
The conditions there are totally unsuitable for football. Living there is going to be pretty difficult for a lot of top players due to the culture.
There's luke warm enthusiasm from locals and not ideal stadiums.
For me it's a pretty terrible choice of investment strategy and I'd be surprised if it survives lower oil prices and difficult economic times.
They could and should spend the money on other investments.
Just like China's league but on a bigger scale.
The conditions there are totally unsuitable for football. Living there is going to be pretty difficult for a lot of top players due to the culture.
There's luke warm enthusiasm from locals and not ideal stadiums.
For me it's a pretty terrible choice of investment strategy and I'd be surprised if it survives lower oil prices and difficult economic times.
They could and should spend the money on other investments.
Just like China's league but on a bigger scale.
What league has had better players in it than Neymar, Benzema, Kanté, Mahrez, Firmino, Neves, Fabinho, Mitrovic, Kessie, Saint-Maximin, Brozovic, Mané, Milinkovic-Savic, Laporte, Ronaldo, Koulibaly, Bono, Henderson?
Stunning coastline, amazing weather all year round, only a short haul flight to get there, lots of history and unspoilt untamed scenery. No chavvy Brits of all ages walking around half naked and completely drunk.. And hospitality second to none.. I loved Saudi and can't wait to go again
You shouldn't worry! The Saudis don't want to destroy your football. There will always be football here. In addition, there are not that many squad positions to accommodate everyone. What they want is only your elite footballers. Not worth mentioning. In Germany we always say when the English keep buying away our star players; "It doesn't matter! We have a good scouting department. It has always been our way to promote and bring forth new talent."
I think the English will also need a good scouting department in the future. Sisyphean labor is a great thing. I think things can get a bit more problematic if the other two heavyweights like UAE and Qatar also get the idea to pimp their leagues. But never mind. What counts are the clubs and not the players. Even if the league is full of Maguire's and Lingards. Doesn't matter at all. I don't care about the best. I am interested in the amateurs of this sport.
I also like chess, boxing and UFC. I never look there, for example, when Fury vs Usyk fights, Chimaev vs Edwards or Magnus vs Hikaru. All money-hungry "pesoteros".
I think the English will also need a good scouting department in the future. Sisyphean labor is a great thing. I think things can get a bit more problematic if the other two heavyweights like UAE and Qatar also get the idea to pimp their leagues. But never mind. What counts are the clubs and not the players. Even if the league is full of Maguire's and Lingards. Doesn't matter at all. I don't care about the best. I am interested in the amateurs of this sport.
I also like chess, boxing and UFC. I never look there, for example, when Fury vs Usyk fights, Chimaev vs Edwards or Magnus vs Hikaru. All money-hungry "pesoteros".
Oil is still their primary income and will be for a long time to come
What was Dubai 30 odd years ago compared to now - that's what they are aiming to do
Does anybody have a full list of all confirmed transfers this summer to Saudi clubs?
I'm sure you can make a Saudi all-star XI that is better than ours.
I'm sure you can make a Saudi all-star XI that is better than ours.
I think Opta has some metrics for that, which like all metrics are debatable but may help see things clearer a year from now.
It depends on which grounds you want to judge :
- In the AFC CL, Saudi clubs (Al-Hilal esp. IIRC) are perennial contenders and winners but they still lose finals (against the Urawa Red Diamonds last edition). You can make a good case they're the biggest league in Asia.
- In terms of media coverage, things have been going very fast and though it's hard to measure, it's true that there's maybe a higher chance for an European supporter to see Saudi highlights rather than Belgian ones (and Belgium is a relatively strong league, 8-10th or thereabout in Europe ?).
- Money spent in the year ? Probably at the very top already.
- Is the Saudi league stronger than Brazil, Argentina, Belgium, MLS or Portugal overall ? If they keep that spending they will shortly be. I don't know they are yet in that moment in time.
Five years ago you could say this, but the majority of those players are only there because they aren't up to playing at the highest level anymore.
It's one aspect that can be overlooked that places like Dubai and SA can offer is security and a lavish lifestyle that can be enjoyed, it's supercars and top facilities all the way there.Stunning coastline, amazing weather all year round, only a short haul flight to get there, lots of history and unspoilt untamed scenery. No chavvy Brits of all ages walking around half naked and completely drunk.. And hospitality second to none.. I loved Saudi and can't wait to go again
Let's do a rudimentary calculation.
There are 18 clubs in the Saudi Pro League. 18*11 = 198 players. You have listed 18 players. 18/198 = 9% of all players in the starting eleven.
The average quality of the Saudi Pro League player would be (0.09 x Quality of Top Players) + (0.91 x Average quality of Non-Top players).
Let's evaluate quality on a scale of 1-10. If you rate those players as 10/10, then they would add 0.9 to the average quality of the starting eleven. If you rate them 9/10, they would add 0.81. If you rate them 8/10, they add 0.72.
For the Saudi Pro League to be the best non-European league today, it would mean that the starting eleven of the average Saudi league club was less than 1/10th apart from the starting eleven of the average Brazilian or Argentinian club.
I don't believe that to be true.
Yeah for some of them they're not at their absolute peak but could easily play Champions League level football for someone. Neymar for example is still among the best forwards in the world when fit. Mahrez if he signed for us would start. Ruben Neves would start for a lot of CL sides, Milinkovic-Savic was going to be the best player for a team in the CL. Brozovic recently played the CL final etc. Fabinho and Henderson if they stayed would be playing plenty for Liverpool. Laporte would start for most CL clubs.
They are absolutely not trying to turn into Dubai
Al-Hilal beat South America champions Flamengo in the Club World Cup only 6 months ago to reach the final against Madrid. And they almost beat Chelsea 18 months ago to in the CWC semifinal, narrowly losing 0-1.
This was before they decided to spend billions.
They are hosting the 2027 Asian cup and will build new stadiums for the tournament which should boast attendances locally and attract more foreign players.
https://english.alarabiya.net/News/...plans-to-remodel-build-new-stadiums-revealed-
That's just 18 of the best players, there's another 18 I could name of a very good level as well, and easily another 18 of pretty high level. The average Brazilian or Argentinian club might have a better squad, but they can't compete with the headline players. If a Brazilian club had Neymar in it, it would automatically be among the favourites to win domestic competitions for example.
It's also changing rapidly. Even in a month they'd gained so many players. Next month it will be even more.
There is no FFP in the Saudi Pro League, I wonder how long it will be before PL teams want the financial stranglehold of FFP eased to allow them to compete.
You haven't even named 18 players of a very good level yet. Kante's barely kicked a football in a year.
They are looking to turn their country in to a tourism, leisure and business hub, which is exactly what Dubai isThey are absolutely not trying to turn into Dubai
It's the age old debate of "can you infer the average level from top clubs" & "could the 10th in league X beat the 10th in league Y".
I grant Saudi football wasn't starting from nothing and will get a lot stronger (first at the top then overall) if they keep that level of investment.
Still a very good player when fit, his average rating was 3rd best at Chelsea in the few games he played last year. If you don't think Kanté would start for Argentinian or Brazilian teams, I don't know what to say.
I watched a few documentaries (probably because I was bored), I think on Youtube or Prime, whichever it was, Saudi is showing ambitions to be the next tourist hub by 2030. They have been opening the country more to tourists, building beach island resorts, showing historical sites where one of them is similar to Petra and other ancients sites that they are repairing. It is pretty amazing really for a country that has been closed to most people for a long time, and then these documentaries show that it has plenty to offer besides the vast empty desert.
Well, back to football...
Why can't any of these clubs buy McTom or Maguire or DBeek?
Well, back to football...
Why can't any of these clubs buy McTom or Maguire or DBeek?
Neymar used to play in Brazil.
That's why I find your claim that Saudis have built "the best non-European league in 20-25 years" very annoying.
Brazil won the Copa America in 2004 with a bunch of local players in the starting lineup; the next two years, Brazilian clubs won the Club World Cup over their European counterparts.
And you're telling me that the Saudi Pro League is better than this, not because of anything that has actually happened on the pitch, but simply because of the names of some players they've signed.
Why don't we wait until these clubs have actually done something on a football pitch?
No, Dubai is a lot more than that. It's a place where visitors have options to have more of a western lifestyle with alcohol and even looser dressing among beach clubs and hotels. These visitors are also attracted to be residents.
Dubai is the melting pot of vices that the UAE have put everything into. Saudi don't want to do that.
Riyadh has a population of 7 million (4 times the size of Dubai). Half of which are foreign. Saudi has a lot of local demand to exploit. The UAE doesn’t.
Mitrovic is still 29 next month, and not even that good anyway.
Just over 40% is Non- Saudi, not half. And those non-saudi's are predominantly Bangladeshi, or from Pakistan, India and Yemen.
The Premier League is admittedly not being weakened, but Neymar could have gone there as well as a 24 year old Ibanez from Roma.
So there's some missed opportunities for the Premier League for sure. Whether the Saudis are in it for the long term remains to be seen. There is not as much domestic interest for football as there is in England, let alone the cultural pull of a city like London compared with Riyadh for most players.
The non-Saudis would be the biggest football fans then
But the point isn't there would be a lack of football interest. There's tons of that.The non-Saudis would be the biggest football fans then
It's more Saudi isn't trying to be Dubai. Dubai are also targeting the tourism route because they aren't as rich as Saudi. Yes Saudi are opening their borders more, but they are not trying to go nuts like Dubai.
At some point Saudi will have to open up to foreign talent. Right now their expats are from third-world countries doing the chores.
If the Saudis pull off their economic diversification, it will imply having more skilled workers from abroad coming over all year long.
Not Dubai but not that far. The lesser the reliance on oil, the more they will target skilled foreign workers not just for tourism but work.
I don't think they 'have' to do anything. Their natural resources are on a completely different level to Dubai, who are depending heavily on foreign investment.