Scoring Goals
- Thread starter Suedesi
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1. limited options for creativity. Other than Pogba who else tries something unexpected? Who puts in passes that trouble defences? We need another central midfielder (ideally 2) who do that.
2. Lop sided attacking options. We've played without a proper right winger for 5 or 6 years. Nani and Januzaj were the last ones i think. If you want to stop Manchester United, you get close to the left hand side of their attack. AWB will improve, but he's no attacking FB like Walker or Bellerin (it could be argued their not as good as him defensively). Because AWB is so much better at defending than attacking, we need a proper RW.
3. Constant chopping and changing of tactics and players. It takes time to gel. Gomes last night was trying stuff and a lot of it was coming to nothing because some of his team mates didn't really know what he could do and he didn't know what they would do. When playing footy with my mates i knew their traits, there was a fella who'd want it to feet all the time and would hold up the ball, lean on the defender with his weight and look to turn him. There was another fella who'd always goal hang at the LW position, often he'd be the furthest man forward because he was too lazy to track back. Years of playing together i knew these things, so do the rest of us with our mates. It will take a while for this team to get to know that about each other.
I see things improving though. If we can retain our core and add some decent signings, we're 3-4 players away from a very good side (plus maybe a season to gel). If this season we can get top four and by the start of the summer get a CM, CDM, RW and ST; we'll be ready for a title challenge in 21/22.
2. Lop sided attacking options. We've played without a proper right winger for 5 or 6 years. Nani and Januzaj were the last ones i think. If you want to stop Manchester United, you get close to the left hand side of their attack. AWB will improve, but he's no attacking FB like Walker or Bellerin (it could be argued their not as good as him defensively). Because AWB is so much better at defending than attacking, we need a proper RW.
3. Constant chopping and changing of tactics and players. It takes time to gel. Gomes last night was trying stuff and a lot of it was coming to nothing because some of his team mates didn't really know what he could do and he didn't know what they would do. When playing footy with my mates i knew their traits, there was a fella who'd want it to feet all the time and would hold up the ball, lean on the defender with his weight and look to turn him. There was another fella who'd always goal hang at the LW position, often he'd be the furthest man forward because he was too lazy to track back. Years of playing together i knew these things, so do the rest of us with our mates. It will take a while for this team to get to know that about each other.
I see things improving though. If we can retain our core and add some decent signings, we're 3-4 players away from a very good side (plus maybe a season to gel). If this season we can get top four and by the start of the summer get a CM, CDM, RW and ST; we'll be ready for a title challenge in 21/22.
I never think we shoot from distance accurately enough either. Really annoys me that so many players in the squad are so inaccurate from distance.
I know you're being sarcastic. But for those who genuinely believed that, chance creation has been for a problem for few years now and nothing has changed under new regime. It still looks like 11 individuals on pitch trying to figuring out what to do in attack on the go with no chemistry, no pattern or plan behind it.
People were so caught up and obsessed with Van Djiks impact on Liverpool and the usual defence wins titles bollocks. Klopp was smart enough to actually build an attack of Mane, Salah and Firminho before he went anywhere near Allison or Van Djik.I remember a few people actually saying that
Don't get me wrong, we needed it, but we needed a whole lot more to actually look good.
Don't think it's best to judge this when our 1st choice striker is out with a minor injury. Any team struggles without their striker, even more so for us when we don't have an experienced backup. The stated reason for not buying that backup is we want to give Greenwood a chance. Last night we gave that chance and he scored on his debut, while Rashford spurned a hat-trick of chances. So it makes even less sense to criticise this after such a game which went according to Ole's patient plan.
Now, one might say we don't get enough goals from our other players, but James, who Ole bought, is our top scorer, but didn't play last night with a minor knock, and we can expect both James and Martial to be back soon and the main goalscorers to be firing them in again. Speaking of main scorers, last season's top scorer was Pogba who has also been out with a minor injury, and who's head hasn't been in the right place, regardless of whether he has been played in the right position. Think Evra being around will help him sort his head out. And Pogba too will be back soon. So how about judging us after that?
If Greenwood gradually makes the RW spot his own this season, and scoring form there in the PL, and James stealing the LW spot from Rashford, Martial and Pogba scoring like they can, then goals won't be an issue. Yes our biggest problem is backup for Pogba and Martial, and a decent #10 ... in Greenwood we are trying to grow our own, rightly, but is a gamble on Martial's fitness. Our Academy doesn't have a Pogba replacement, Levitt and Garner are even less ready than Chong (who btw was last season's Young Player of the Year because one thing he can do is score a lot of goals). We will probably buy in January a midfielder to backup Pogba, or possibly even a #10 like Maddison.
As Rashford said, we have a long-term plan, focussing on growing a young side, and these youngsters need games and years. It's up to Supporters to learn patience and learn to actually support their team rather than constantly moan.
Now, one might say we don't get enough goals from our other players, but James, who Ole bought, is our top scorer, but didn't play last night with a minor knock, and we can expect both James and Martial to be back soon and the main goalscorers to be firing them in again. Speaking of main scorers, last season's top scorer was Pogba who has also been out with a minor injury, and who's head hasn't been in the right place, regardless of whether he has been played in the right position. Think Evra being around will help him sort his head out. And Pogba too will be back soon. So how about judging us after that?
If Greenwood gradually makes the RW spot his own this season, and scoring form there in the PL, and James stealing the LW spot from Rashford, Martial and Pogba scoring like they can, then goals won't be an issue. Yes our biggest problem is backup for Pogba and Martial, and a decent #10 ... in Greenwood we are trying to grow our own, rightly, but is a gamble on Martial's fitness. Our Academy doesn't have a Pogba replacement, Levitt and Garner are even less ready than Chong (who btw was last season's Young Player of the Year because one thing he can do is score a lot of goals). We will probably buy in January a midfielder to backup Pogba, or possibly even a #10 like Maddison.
As Rashford said, we have a long-term plan, focussing on growing a young side, and these youngsters need games and years. It's up to Supporters to learn patience and learn to actually support their team rather than constantly moan.
The warning signs have been there since pre season. We just dont have the creativity or movement in the squad to unlock tight defenses. All the opposition have to do is man mark Pogba and we're screwed.
Luckily Dan James has come into the squad and scored some long range shots which is required for breaking down teams like that. But we're still very short of creativity and our final ball is abysmal, but thats been an issue for a long time now pre Ole.
Luckily Dan James has come into the squad and scored some long range shots which is required for breaking down teams like that. But we're still very short of creativity and our final ball is abysmal, but thats been an issue for a long time now pre Ole.
We must have spent almost 100m on managers since Fergie, yet none of them have bothered or been held accountable for doing there actual job which is to coach the team. It's fecking ridiculous.
Yeah, when you watch games you just feel that our players really lack basic intelligence. You see other top teams, especially in the wing play, FBs passes the ball to wide players and then continues the run. Our FBs pass the ball to wide player and then takes a break assuming their work is completed.
Yesterday Gomes played a played a defense splitting pass to Dalot, inside the box. That was probably the first time I saw our players even try it this season.
FBs somehow plays their way into good position, there is 0 urgency and movement in the box. The team play is very poor and they just don't give options to the player in possession.
These are some of the basic things you expect from any team.
Yeah exactly. Lots of people kept saying he built from the back, but he didn't at all. Ok, he bought a couple of meh defenders, but he made his attack strong first, and I'm including the fullbacks in that because they certainly aren't at the back on heatmaps.
It doesn't necessarily matter which part of your team you start building first. Our attack has a lot of potential that could just sort itself out, while our midfield is shit past Pogba and our defence used to be beyond shit. Right back and centerback were without a doubt our 2 most vital positions and we sorted them out. Next is our midfield. Once that all gets sorted, there's a fair chance that Martial and Rashford develop a lot more and with a better base in midfield give us more control in games. Even still, our right wing would be the next issue (provided James/Greenwood don't develop on that side).
It was never going to be sorted in one summer, but I'm delighted with the defence so far and the attack I'm just expecting will improve itself just by experience and players returning from injuries.
creativity and breaking down compact defences is our problem.
Actually it does, because you need to score goals to actually win games. Doesn't matter where you want to finish in the top 4 - the onus is going to be on you to win games, and you can only do that by putting the ball in the back of the net.
The teams you need to beat to get there, will be happy with a point so you need to be able to score goals first and foremost.
Like 70% of our problems - comes down to poor coaching, and has done for years.
We need to be far more progressive in our set-up. We don’t have a style, and we don’t have the players good enough to get away with not knowing what we are doing. Said for years, but this whole ‘play without fear’ and ‘we should be attacking teams’ is far, far from good enough. People drool over City or Liverpool’s players, but for me, those teams make all their players look better than they are due to the collective. They create far more chances due to how they set up. We haven’t moved past ‘Rashy and Martial are top young players’ so we just need to ‘give them confidence’. The fact Sterling or Zinchenko get in behind so many times a game is not down to them just being given confidence.
We have been left behind on the touchline for a long time. People don’t realise it, and as a result, we ALWAYS need ‘better players’. However, in a million years we could not have taken City apart the way Norwich did last week. That match was won by their coach. Yet we are still moaning that even Rashford isn’t good enough according to most.
I’ll say this, as it stands, we would need a squad of players about 30% better than City’s players in order to beat them to a league title. Equal talent and they would wipe the floor with us.
We don’t create enough chances because we have average coaching.
We need to be far more progressive in our set-up. We don’t have a style, and we don’t have the players good enough to get away with not knowing what we are doing. Said for years, but this whole ‘play without fear’ and ‘we should be attacking teams’ is far, far from good enough. People drool over City or Liverpool’s players, but for me, those teams make all their players look better than they are due to the collective. They create far more chances due to how they set up. We haven’t moved past ‘Rashy and Martial are top young players’ so we just need to ‘give them confidence’. The fact Sterling or Zinchenko get in behind so many times a game is not down to them just being given confidence.
We have been left behind on the touchline for a long time. People don’t realise it, and as a result, we ALWAYS need ‘better players’. However, in a million years we could not have taken City apart the way Norwich did last week. That match was won by their coach. Yet we are still moaning that even Rashford isn’t good enough according to most.
I’ll say this, as it stands, we would need a squad of players about 30% better than City’s players in order to beat them to a league title. Equal talent and they would wipe the floor with us.
We don’t create enough chances because we have average coaching.
Bing bing bing.
We play strikers or central midfielders in our winger positions, so yea of course we are bad in attack we are so unbalanced. Does not help that our midfield cannot dictate any game we play.
We have had a goal scoring problem for a good 6 years now. I don't understand why it is being put on Ole as the man who cannot get us scoring.
We clearly created enough chances yesterday, the quality up top is just not there.
Look at other teams, how do they break teams down with a low block? they have players who can shoot.
Kane, Son, Aguero, KDB, Mane, Salah, Auba, Lacca.
When these players are on the edge of the box teams are scared. Which player of ours can you say will trouble the keeper on a regular basis? None.
We clearly created enough chances yesterday, the quality up top is just not there.
Look at other teams, how do they break teams down with a low block? they have players who can shoot.
Kane, Son, Aguero, KDB, Mane, Salah, Auba, Lacca.
When these players are on the edge of the box teams are scared. Which player of ours can you say will trouble the keeper on a regular basis? None.
Creating chances against a team like Astana is not that impressive. They were really bad.
The reasons as for why we are unable to score goals/create chances is a mixture of two factors:
1. Lack of system/style on how to attack against a balanced defence. Under JM and OGS we have relied on individual moments or coincidences to create chances when we are unable to counter attack. Only player that regularly plays for us that can create chances and pick a pass is PP. And he is either forced to help play out of defence (given his high risk playstyle this is not smart) or is marked and pressed by two players as soon as he gets the ball in the final third.
2. Lack of players with the ability on the ball. Shaw and AWB are fullbacks that offers little going forward, we have a number of players in vital positions that are better when we are not in possession(Shaw, AWB, Lingard, McT), our players average ability to play simple passes are terrible and are among the worst in the league. 2 of our 5 best passers are our central defenders and our worst passers are the fullbacks and our attacking players. And we got only one midfielder that can handle the ball when pressed. I would suggest that a team comprised of our best players under 20 year are better at passing and retaining possession compared to the +20 year old counterparts (Not that the under 20 would win a match between the two teams).
And it is difficult to implement a system on how to play against balanced defences without having players that are better at passing/possession. Untill OGS/coaches improve our players ability on the ball we will continue to rely on counter attacking as a way to create dangerous situations. And given the lack of improvement among our senior players over the last 4-5 seasons i seriously doubt it will happen soon under the current manager coaches.
While we could've/should've scored more goals with a bit of luck, there are lot of deeply rooted blocks in United's path, so there aren't any quick fixes, unfortunately...
- Not much guile or ingenuity on the ball from back to front — people don't realize how big of an issue this really is because even posters on here keep suggesting basic counter-attackers as transfer targets (and those players will fail when the opposition plays with low blocks and a tightly knit/organized defense because they can't just run into open space).
- Bare minimum production from the fullback position (which is the contemporary equivalent of the traditional winger in a lot of ways), so the opposition readily lets us go wide to aim for low-percentage crosses.
- Little to no spark in midfield aside from Pogba (which is why he's targeted) — Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Keane could decide a game on their own and supported each other, our current group is a faaaaar cry from that so the onus falls entirely on Pogba to weave his magic through the middle...and while he has tremendous qualities, he's not a consummate architect.
- Not a whole lot of synchronous/intelligent movement and triangulation to create passing/scoring opportunities — braindead Zombie Football was an issue even under Fergie.
- Inconsistent goalscorers or players who are not natural finishers in the forward positions, and beyond that — the absence of a Van Nistelrooy, Cole, Van Persie caliber of center forward who is in his prime and can sniff out chances to lead the charge when all else fails.
- Poor execution and decision making (especially in decisive moments) because a lot of the players are young and lack maturity/composure, particularly in tough situations where a battle-hardy veteran is usually more comfortable.
- Below par development of individuals via coaching/training, so there's not much organic growth — almost none of our young Starting XI attackers are categorically better than where they were 2-3 years ago.
- General lethargy. The players often don't have a spring in their step, don't seem 110% committed to blockbuster football, don't pass with enough zip, etc. Not exactly Joga Bonito...
- Poor shooting from distance against teams that sit deep and let us have the ball, even under Fergie we'd sometimes need a Scholes/Cristiano special.
- Long standing profligacy issues from set pieces, which are often the last resort against stubborn teams.
- Systemic problems due to improper coaching by the staff or the players' inability to translate the instructions on the pitch...probably a mix of both because neither aspect is outstanding on its own merit. A good coach/system maximizes the potential of players and ratchets up the production of very good players to world class level, good players to very good level, average to above average etc. United's players haven't had that guiding force blowing wind into their sails on a consistent basis.
Good post @Invictus
Teams have now learnt to cope up with pressure. Every other team now knows how to park the bus and suffocate their opponents. As a good team, one has to learn to create loads of chances in order to get goals. If you haven't noticed yet, City are the best ones to create a lot of chances in a game but lately because of the loss of Sane and Laporte, they seem out of proportions. Doesn't look like they can get to a 100 points or anywhere close to it this season and that's probably why i want United to capitalize on this opportunity and get the lesser teams away and maybe try to get one over our neighbors.
True, we obviously need reinforcements in attack at some point.
We could have scored more in most of the matches we played though, the penalty misses inparticular come to mind.
Once Martial is back and in form we might start to score more than we are doing, we'll have to wait and see.
We need to buy a top quality centre forward. Unless Greenwood has an amazing breakthrough.
Martial is too hot and cold and will never be the Kane/Aguero/Salah-calibre striker we need. All the very best teams have a player that scores a shitload of goals, and as much as I rate Martial as a footballer, I can ever see him being that kind of player.
Martial is too hot and cold and will never be the Kane/Aguero/Salah-calibre striker we need. All the very best teams have a player that scores a shitload of goals, and as much as I rate Martial as a footballer, I can ever see him being that kind of player.
We would get some more goals if we could make our corners and freekicks effective. For quite some years, they have been useless.
Are you joking? Apart from injury there have been no change on personnel as well as tactics. In fact, our problem is precisely this! Our tactics has been to counter-attack but counter-attack only. Against Chelsea we were fine but there after we were found out. Against teams parking the bus, we were clueless. From last night we can see a few positive and problems
1. We dearly miss good cross into the box such as Rojo. The last time I can remember was Nani and CR. So how can you creak down a bus when there is Zero cross on target. WAB and Shaw are improvement over Valencia/Young but their delivery is poor, Dalot is worse.
2. Stop criticising your MF when your #10 is AWOL the best, counter-productive the worse. Take Mata's injury time opportunity to Rashford as example, he could have flick it over the defender 1st time, or should have passed it ASAP, but what did he do, control the ball, run it sideway, think for another 2s, couldn't pass because Rashford was obviously off-side, end of story.
3. Getting rid of Lukaku is a problem, without replacement is a sin. Just look at Rashford's finishing....
What is the point of crossing if everyone in an around the box is static or marked because they are static? Why is everyone marked in the box? Because our build up play is so slow the opposition have time to get themselves into shape. There is no snappy transition of play and that is the role of the midfield, including the 10.
We should have replaced Lukaku, we didn't. Tough. We have the players we have available to us and we need to play to suit their strengths. We've tried death by crossing under Moyes, we did triangle passes to put the opposition to sleep under LVG and we played hoofball under Jose. This is the tactical variation i'm talking about - the players don't get to gel under a particular ethos, stuff doesn't happen for them naturally.
Oles tactics do need to improve, i think we're still slow in the transition when teams are compact, i think we don't dribble at teams enough, we don't get players between the lines, we don't go central often enough, we rarely attack from the RHS.
Our midfielders rarely if ever go beyond the ball - this is why we struggle to score against a defensive set-up. We just don't have the numbers in attack. Its no issue on the counter because our forwards have the space to operate. This will continue until we address that problem. Only Mata ever really does this and he is not the player he was.
I totally agree that we do not have the quality up top to break teams down, but for people to say we didn't create anything yesterday is not correct.
Even yesterday, the thing that annoyed me the most was easy passes to feet were being played a yard or 2 away from players when there was no pressure. When this happens, the rythmn is gone and you have to start again. Having full backs like Dalot and Rojo when you have NO clue what they are going to do, how do you prepare for that?
Matic and Fred kept passing the ball side ways and backwards after taking 3/4 touches on the ball.
I don't mind a slow build up from the back but as soon as the ball goes into the opponents half the play has to be quicker, one touch or two touch pass and move.
How Ole does not coach this is beyond me. Its all well and good having fitness off the ball, but you need it on the ball too.
Precisely - the setup is everything. Our biggest issue is the head in the sand 'United way' mentality - young players, counter attacking players, pacey winger bullshit. Yes we had success with this in the past but once you pull your head up none of the top teams rely so much on the counter and all of them prioritise playing out from the back, controlling possession and moving teams around to create openings. A good team makes their average players look good and their good players look great.
In fairness, Ole looks to be changing some aspects of this, most notably with regards to pressing but we will see how good we can get in that department given he's not exactly got a track record compared to other rival managers like Klopp, Pep, Poch or even guys like Hasenhuttl who are known for it with weaker teams.
We play like a youth team that's full of great individuals but never had proper coaching at a more advanced level. At the elite level, you have to all be switched on tactically and not just have a team full of great players. Even if we signed prime Messi we'd be a way of the title because our system is just so infantile offensively. There's no nous, no invention and it's based on hoping one of our players can break through or someone produces a moment of magic. Even now, the talk is all about finding a player in CM who can 'play through the lines' and not about changing the way we build attacks. It's like we can't get our head around the fact that there's a fundamental issue with our strategy and tactics and it won't be solved by throwing money at new shiny players.
We seem to have no ideas in possession. Every player needs three or four touches. The players who are meant to play forward just hang up there and no one wants to drop between the lines to pick up the ball. On occasions we end up having a player between lines, the players in possession often tend to play it safe by either passing it wide or backwards.
I think if we had scored early we would have sat back and got caught, like always.
He has a 30m release clause apparently. Big United fan too. We've never been linked with him though for some reason.
The return of 4-0 FC against Chelsea was a red herring. The midfield and attack is getting worse each year not better. I think we will be lucky to finish top 6 unless we add a forward in January.
Great post. Sums it all up very nicely.
This is a top top post, it's objective in taking away the standard critical emphasis placed on Ole and redirected where it should be, highlighting his influence in what we are seeing on the field. Our coaching staff need to be getting more out of this squad. 80% of our managerial appointments have been astute / decent managers but they've been average at best coaches with LVG being a slight exception as he did improve the most individual players out of Ole, Moyes and Jose.
I just don't see how we we improve with time and investment when the systems we currently have in place (after 9 months) have us lacking the foundation to clearly win games. As I've said before missed penalties do take away from results but they don't provide any amendments for the frailties in our balance of play. If fans want the results vs platform to win arguments we have already gone down this road with Mourinho. If Ole can figure out how to implement more creativity in our play and break down opposition defences he's all but guaranteed time. This isn't a case of buy three quality players and all of a sudden the coaching rectifies itself. Football has never been about who comprises the best players, it's about who comprises the best team. Funnily enough this was one of Sir Alex biggest strengths.
The reason why our attacking players are so static in the box is simple: we don't have any good crosser that is able to hit a moving target accurately.
Imagine hitting a post and hitting a running dog, the later would be much more difficult as you'd have to "time" the movement of the dog and the ball so the ball can hit the dog. Our crossers can not even hit a post.
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Yep. And with what gets leaked as our potential targets (no idea if they are our actual targets or not), it doesn't look like we will have even equal players for a long time. We are hoping to hit the lottery with our academy, and I just don't think that will be enough.
But, to disagree with you slightly, I still think Rashford needs to be better and even with a magician coach, he would struggle.
Rashford could certainly be better. But he could also be a lot worse. He’s 21 and for me, the second best young striker in the world after Mbappe.
In any case, like every other player, he would benefit from being part of a collective rather than a group of talented individuals expected to win games. Last season we played like a unit for 10 games and he was sensational in that period.
But ultimately, we won’t be able to beat City and Liverpool until we organise better. And we’d be easily guaranteed a top 4 place with even our current squad if we switched coaches with either of those I think. A team with Rashford, Martial, Pogba, AWB, Maguire and DDG shouldn’t have Wolverhampton Wanderers saying they hope to finish above them. We need to get the best out of the group we have. Then add more talent to that. I suspect we are more likely to try and get the likes of Sancho for huge money and if he comes into Carrington and asks his coaches what they want him to do, they will say ‘be brilliant’. We need more than this.