Sell Rashford, Sell Bruno?... Statistical Breakdown Of The Root Causes Behind Ten Hag's Project Stalling?

[UpWithRivers]

With Maguire and De Gea in Brighton's build-up, De Zerbi would have already been back in Serie A, managing midtable clubs. It's one thing to discuss where he's gone wrong, and it's another to treat him like the devil incarnate. Why doesn't the build-up function well against the poorer sides that don't commit many players to their press? A 3-1 or a 2-3 shape, plus the keeper, should be more than enough against sides that just use 2–3 players to cause us problems. Just how many players should we get behind the ball, 6-7- everybody? Why can't we move the ball upward with pace and purpose when it's clear that we have the numerical advantage in our third?

Brighton dropped their playmaking keeper and bought a nobody from Sunderland. They sold their best midfield and it still worked. There is a reason why they can just buy random players and they all seem to just fit in. There is a reason why when they sell them they don't seem so good. There is also a reason why our players more than anyone gets dispossessed or misplaces a pass. Even Onana does it. Even Casemiro. Everyone. De Gea and Maguire are not ideal but they would be fine or at the very least loads better than they look in our team. But we will have to agree to disagree.

The second part - Why doesn't our build-up function well against poorer sides. It does. Especially at home and especially with Eriksen last season. Thats why our Home form was so good last season and our away form so sht. Thats why we can look so good for 20 mins then we are fkd. How many times do we say how come after half time we are fkd. Its not us. Its the opposition. They sit back. See what we have. Then press us. When they don't we are fine

 

[Raees]

So; your suggestions for players to keep are:

• Onana - at fault for countless goals this season and hasn't shown anywhere near the level required
• Shaw - Move into CB to create the world's smallest pairing whilst replacing with an inferior LB.
• Martinez - Move from his preferred LCB to accommodate Shaw. Has not had a great United career thus far. Poor performances following the World Cup and injured for his time here.
• Mainoo - Has played 3 (?) senior games and looked largely anonymous against Newcastle. It's fine to use the arguments 'he was used incorrectly' or 'midfield pairing wasn't right', but that excuse isn't afforded to any of our other players.
• Hojlund - Has scored 30 goals in 4 seasons across 100 appearances as a striker but he's surviving the cull.

And then spend close to £500m on 6 new players?

Not blaming you personally but as United fans, we tend to overhype potential such as Mainoo and Hojlund without appreciating there's every chance they don't hit the levels we require. We saw it with Pogba, Januzaj, Greenwood, Martial and so many more... but then we're hyper-critical of seasoned professionals such as Varane, Maguire, Dalot, Casemiro, McTominay, Eriksen, Bruno and Rashford.

The whole team is suffering right now and the manager isn't getting the best out of any of them. Dalot is playing CM, Casemiro/Mainoo have to anchor an entire midfield alone, McTominay is a SS/RW hybrid, Bruno is playing 4-5 positions and multiple roles in a single game... and it's all due to tactical decisions. The solution isn't to sell our best players and replace them with new shiny things, it's to implement an effective system based on the players available.

That is slightly out of context.

In an ideal world we have an unlimited budget. Reality is we do not, so I tried my best to try and keep players that IMO I could make some use out of otherwise I might as well have just posted a brand new XI of new signings.

All your criticisms of those players are valid and I totally share the same concerns, all I am saying is that those players I can see myself trying to fit in and save money on having to replace them (not guaranteed to work out but I would be willing to give it a go).

Of course I would rather have a brand new RCB and leave Lisandro/Shaw fighting it out for LCB.

Onana of course may need replacing if this current shitfest continues. Likewise Hojlund if he doesn't score etc.

And yes Mainoo might totally be another overhyped academy project.

So yes to put it into context, the XI I created was not one I wholeheartedly believe will be a success but my best budget attempt at trying to create a competitive XI... otherwise truth be told, you're probably looking at only a Lisandro getting in if the others carry on in this vein.

 

[Oranges038]

Good video and analysis.

Puts a lot of stuff into perspective.

Personally I'm not a fan of the 316, but I think it can work if the players in the 2 forward midfield roles and wide areas are better at retaining and recycling possession. When you give the ball away cheaply you are leaving a lot space for the opposition to run into uncontested. Which we know all about from just watching the games.

Players switching off and being out of position in the press is another problem, once that forward press in bypassed. The defence seems to be too far back to follow up effectively, which also exposes the midfielder.

Definitely, the midfield needs more agility, legs and technical ability to win those battles and control the ball more when it is being retained.

 

[Lee565]

It's stalling because ten hag is just not a good manager, his tactics are dreadful, his football is dreadful, his coaching has not benefited players, his recruitment has been a disaster and his man management has a lot to be desired.

 

[Raees]

Calling Bruno and 'act first think later' player is a subjective rather than factual phrase.
He likes to look for an early release sure, but to claim he isn't thinking about it or doesn't have the pass in mind is more likely than not incorrect and is a subjective thought.

Also, in terms of long shots, United have some quality strikers of the ball, Rashford, Bruno, Antony, Garnacho, I'd even lump McT into that as well. They are all capable of scoring from distance, so to call that 'hollywood' is a stretch, plus it worked last season well, and we have three more long shots that City in your graphics this season, a team based around getting the ball into the box, hardly a ridiculous amount, especially if, as you go on to say, we lack aerial presence in the box.

I did especially like the team selection section towards the end though, good to listen to.

I think one of the common arguments used to support Bruno is that like KDB he is a 'creative' force and needs licence to unleash his killer passes.. the issue is that he loses the ball more than KDB in general play and more likely to get caught on the ball.

As for long shots, when you are taking more long shots and you have a broken style of play, it leads to even more transfers of possession. City taking long shots, it is more a structured style of play and then they take shots it is because it is part of a strategy rather than players just going maverick and doing their own thing.

 

[The Irish Connection]

Ten Hag seems to want our midfielders to vacate the actual midfield and stand near the forwards. I presume so we can get overloads once we beat the press, but it’s not working.
We end up just passing it sideways across the back four for ages because there aren’t any passing options. We need more bodies deeper in midfield.
Also, our movement to find space to receive a pass is lackluster.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Brighton dropped their playmaking keeper and bought a nobody from Sunderland. They sold their best midfield and it still worked. There is a reason why they can just buy random players and they all seem to just fit in. There is a reason why when they sell them they don't seem so good. There is also a reason why our players more than anyone gets dispossessed or misplaces a pass. Even Onana does it. Even Casemiro. Everyone. De Gea and Maguire are not ideal but they would be fine or at the very least loads better than they look in our team. But we will have to agree to disagree.

The second part - Why doesn't our build-up function well against poorer sides. It does. Especially at home and especially with Eriksen last season. Thats why our Home form was so good last season and our away form so sht. Thats why we can look so good for 20 mins then we are fkd. How many times do we say how come after half time we are fkd. Its not us. Its the opposition. They sit back. See what we have. Then press us. When they don't we are fine

It really doesn't. We have been struggling to create good chances (and we are also bad finishers, as the video suggested) for quite some time. It's a chronic issue. We lack a tempo setter deeper in the midfield, but such discussions always seem to turn into the search for that messianic player who will be introduced to the side and solve everything with a snap of his fingers. It's deeper than that. Often times, we have the numbers to progress the ball into the midfield with purpose and conviction. Sometimes it works. On certain occasions, we ask too much of these players, and that's on ETH. But one of the main reasons we look so slow and ponderous is that the players burdened with this particular task either don't make the right passes when our movement opens up a window of opportunity or don't move into the positions they're supposed to. And the most infuriating thing is that sometimes they do move where they're instructed, but it's more than obvious that the pass isn't on. It's not just McT.

Brighton use their keeper as the link player against the press a lot. There's no place for De Gea in such tactics. And due to the nature of their build-up, both their centre-halves not only have the most touches/passes in their team, they're also essential when it comes to making the right decisions and then timing their passes to perfection. Maguire would stick out like a sore thumb in their set-up, as would most of our options at the back. They sign players that fit the profiles they're looking for.

Describing United as a team of contradictions in the video was apt, IMHO. He buys players like Antony, Onana, Hojlund and Mount to give the keys to the kingdom to a gunslinger like Bruno and Rashford (or hold onto Garnacho for dear life). Then we're left scratching our heads why it doesn't work.

 

[bond19821982]

Using latest stats from Wyscout, I've put together an in-depth breakdown looking at our build up shape, chance creation, 1 v 1 defending, aerial duels, pressing and culture (plus much more).

Apart from progressive passing (indicating we are a very direct side) the stats make for some awful reading.

Do take a look, I think it will help many who are on the fence about manager/players realise just how much upheaval needs to be done to return United to a genuinely competitive state.

If you want a honest feedback, lot of the information in that video is ill informed. Just criticizing for the sake of it.

Understand we are crap now but when you see things like that being made up, you just can't stop laughing.

 

[drodhay354]

I certainly agree with your video but its just my point of view.
Sacking Ten Haag is not the way forward for sure but it may be the easiest way out for many people. I prefer sticking with him and also prefer him being stuborn in his way of playing. If we really want to move on and play nice football, we should stick to his plans. It is still a disjointed team and not many players suiting his style and we should expect it to be like that for some time. Man utd fans i believe should come to the fact that the team is not what it used to be. Now with FFP, even splashing money left and right is not possible, not that it was the right thing to do but it may sure help sometimes.

I would keep Bruno though! Maybe sell Rashford, there is still a player and a possible WC player in him, but sadly his status at Man UTD has gone to his head. He may improve if he goes to another top team and become a world beater if he has everything to prove again and play like his life depends on it. In man utd, sadly, he has been resting on his laurels. Pre shoulder injury, Rashford was a beast, a true complete player in the making with good decision making, good possession, and unselfish one. Now he is no longer that. Even his goal scoring seasons have been average, masked by the numbers he has scored. Apart from his goals, he has not been playing really well in the team. He was more dangerrous attacker before his shoulde injury.

Mainoo hopefully has the talent to become what you described as the DM we need. Maybe a player like Joao Neves would complement him well. Maybe Daniel Gore (if he passes the test of man football) may be the answer from within to complement him. Gore seems comfortable and press resistant, has dribbling technique and passing vision as well as grit. Can he transfer that to man's football, that is the question. A todibo in defense would do wonders, maybe replace Varane. An equivalent of shaw at right back would also do wonder to the team.

As you said, there is no control in midfield. We lack a tempo setter. We lack someone with an overall vision of play of when to make passes and when to open play. WHen to slow the tempo or accelerate it. as well as having the football intelligence of closing passing lanes. Man utd is too open in the middle. Pressing is good but not all players are suited to that in the team, and many times it is not really a collective effort. When they press they tend to leave large spaces on the field. We can build a team around Bruno i think but we have to have the midfield to complement him. Someone to set the tempo and to know when to pass it to bruno. His creativity and chance creation is too much to let go. But his high risk taking bring high rewards if we can cover for his limits (the fact that he is going to loose many balls).

There are certain talented players in the academy who can eventually have a chance to contribute to man utd futur. Lacey, Haoren, Fletcher etc. I believe Ten Haag is one manager capable of bringing them to the team in the future. It will take time, but i believe we should stick with him.

 

[MackRobinson]

If you want a honest feedback, lot of the information in that video is ill informed. Just criticizing for the sake of it.

Understand we are crap now but when you see things like that being made up, you just can't stop laughing.

Hi pot. I’m kettle.

 

[Reyoji-Utd]

I genuinely don't understand this. ETH hasn't changed his style and United hasn't changed its style under ETH. So who is suggesting that and why? If anything tactically speaking ETH has made sure that we can't be a possession team because he overloads the opposition final third instead of overloading the middle third, that has been a constant and unless the man is a bonafide idiot, it's because his intention isn't to transition slowly.

Maybe i didnt make it clear, what i want to say is that no matter what managers we hire if some of our players are still here theres little chance we will see the new style (possession, pressing, fluid). We will still see the same because our suppose best players in Rashford and Bruno are at their best when playing direct. Im not sure if my memory correct but the early first season, he was trying to change the style but didnt get anywhere, then decided to adapt to what he got.


I could be wrong, but imho he would like to change to more possession and pressing style but knew hed get no chance bcause of all the things going on with the clubs. His hand pretty much are tied and decided to double down on direct and transition style. I dont defend him or anything, it just that i got fed up with the players and the top management of this club and sure as h.ll if we dont fix the top and lay down discipline from top to bottom then the players will still downtooling and get the manager sacked which is the easier way for fans and club to do. It really just theres much more than just tactics and style manager can or cannot change.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

So; your suggestions for players to keep are:

• Onana - at fault for countless goals this season and hasn't shown anywhere near the level required
• Shaw - Move into CB to create the world's smallest pairing whilst replacing with an inferior LB.
• Martinez - Move from his preferred LCB to accommodate Shaw. Has not had a great United career thus far. Poor performances following the World Cup and injured for his time here.
• Mainoo - Has played 3 (?) senior games and looked largely anonymous against Newcastle. It's fine to use the arguments 'he was used incorrectly' or 'midfield pairing wasn't right', but that excuse isn't afforded to any of our other players.
• Hojlund - Has scored 30 goals in 4 seasons across 100 appearances as a striker but he's surviving the cull.

And then spend close to £500m on 6 new players?

Not blaming you personally but as United fans, we tend to overhype potential such as Mainoo and Hojlund without appreciating there's every chance they don't hit the levels we require. We saw it with Pogba, Januzaj, Greenwood, Martial and so many more... but then we're hyper-critical of seasoned professionals such as Varane, Maguire, Dalot, Casemiro, McTominay, Eriksen, Bruno and Rashford.

The whole team is suffering right now and the manager isn't getting the best out of any of them. Dalot is playing CM, Casemiro/Mainoo have to anchor an entire midfield alone, McTominay is a SS/RW hybrid, Bruno is playing 4-5 positions and multiple roles in a single game... and it's all due to tactical decisions. The solution isn't to sell our best players and replace them with new shiny things, it's to implement an effective system based on the players available.

Wanting a new manager to implement another system with the same failed players that have lasted 3+ managers while largely underperforming is insane

 

[JPRouve]

Maybe i didnt make it clear, what i want to say is that no matter what managers we hire if some of our players are still here theres little chance we will see the new style (possession, pressing, fluid). We will still see the same because our suppose best players in Rashford and Bruno are at their best when playing direct. Im not sure if my memory correct but the early first season, he was trying to change the style but didnt get anywhere, then decided to adapt to what he got.


I could be wrong, but imho he would like to change to more possession and pressing style but knew hed get no chance bcause of all the things going on with the clubs. His hand pretty much are tied and decided to double down on direct and transition style. I dont defend him or anything, it just that i got fed up with the players and the top management of this club and sure as h.ll if we dont fix the top and lay down discipline from top to bottom then the players will still downtooling and get the manager sacked which is the easier way for fans and club to do. It really just theres much more than just tactics and style manager can or cannot change.

The issue for me is that first why is the new style meant to be possession, pressing and fluid? And secondly since when managers have to change all players to implement any style and why managers bringing an entire new set of players guarantee or even increase the likelyhood of the style being sensibly implemented by the manager, you are essentially taking any responsibility. Also it's worth keeping in mind that nearly all players have used or trained all tactical the current tactical approaches, they all built their tactical knowledges from a previous or their current managers, so why do we use signing a new batch of players as an argument in favor of a manager, if anything it exposes an issue with the current manager, not the players, because it is one of the most important aspects of his job. Interestingly that logic doesn't exist in other sports.

Regarding your second paragraph ETH isn't a possession manager, at least he isn't wedded to this approach. Before Ajax he was a 442(and all its variants), fast transition manager. He adapted to Ajax requirements and leaned on 4231-433 organizations with an emphasis on possession against below average teams and fast transition against top teams. On paper ETH is closer to a Ancelotti than he is to any possession obsessed manager.

And the issue with what you are suggesting isn't the defense of ETH, that part is commendable, the issue is that it doesn't align with his history, it aligns with the myth that some built during the months that preceded his appointment and that myth somewhat obfuscate the fact that ETH has managed United in a way that is literally senseless and I'm not using that term as an insult, it literally makes no sense. My best guess is that he has been given more leeway at United instead of being told how the team is supposed to play and which players will be signed whether he likes it or not basically we have a head coach trying to be a manager. That's why while I'm critical of his job, I don't wan't him sacked, I want to see Murtough sacked and replaced with someone that is going to impose an identity and build a team accordingly. And when it comes to ETH, his history has a manager shows that he is able to implement a possession style but also able to implement a low block fast transition style because the latter was his approach before Ajax.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I think the immediate issue is much simpler and is purely about work ethic as a collective/pressing. United feel a bit of a throw back when you watch us now, and this has been the case for a number of years, where there is a lot less structure and we seem to forego any real tactical plan aside from trying to progress the ball quickly into one or two attacking players - there are no correct or incorrect ways to play football and this direct, quite basic style would be fine if we had a very aggressive and well drilled press - to be honest it's probably a tactic that should suit us but we simply don't have the discipline for it. Bruno will regularly bomb out of the line and players will just do a one two round him, Rashford just isn't putting in the work, Martial simply isn't that type of player. McT I honestly don't really know where he's meant to be playing. That's almost the entirity of the attacking unit who would lead the press who either can't, won't or aren't disciplined enough to do it. Therefore, ball goes long, 9 times out of 10 we lose it, 9 times out of 10 our press is bypassed and we are under attack once again.

We dwell on the negatives given the run of form but it is nice to see Antony looking a better recently and Garnacho had added a lot to his defensive game. I do think if players start grafting off the ball that Garnacho - Hojlund - Antony with Mount and Bruno behind them could be a good pressing unit. Then Rashford is a very dangerous impact sub to bring on as a 9 or LW until he finds his form. Hannibal can pressure Mount for his spot as well.

 

[Fortitude]

Just watched the vid @Raees

Good work. A tough watch because it highlights so much of what is wrong, but that's where we are.

 

[GazTheLegend]

When the term press resistant is used, that's when I switch off.

Well made video though. Not sure I agree with loads of it however.

Yeah it's nonsense, almost as bad as the "low block"

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

The issue for me is that first why is the new style meant to be possession, pressing and fluid? And secondly since when managers have to change all players to implement any style and why managers bringing an entire new set of players guarantee or even increase the likelyhood of the style being sensibly implemented by the manager, you are essentially taking any responsibility. Also it's worth keeping in mind that nearly all players have used or trained all tactical the current tactical approaches, they all built their tactical knowledges from a previous or their current managers, so why do we use signing a new batch of players as an argument in favor of a manager, if anything it exposes an issue with the current manager, not the players, because it is one of the most important aspects of his job. Interestingly that logic doesn't exist in other sports.

Regarding your second paragraph ETH isn't a possession manager, at least he isn't wedded to this approach. Before Ajax he was a 442(and all its variants), fast transition manager. He adapted to Ajax requirements and leaned on 4231-433 organizations with an emphasis on possession against below average teams and fast transition against top teams. On paper ETH is closer to a Ancelotti than he is to any possession obsessed manager.

And the issue with what you are suggesting isn't the defense of ETH, that part is commendable, the issue is that it doesn't align with his history, it aligns with the myth that some built during the months that preceded his appointment and that myth somewhat obfuscate the fact that ETH has managed United in a way that is literally senseless and I'm not using that term as an insult, it literally makes no sense. My best guess is that he has been given more leeway at United instead of being told how the team is supposed to play and which players will be signed whether he likes it or not basically we have a head coach trying to be a manager. That's why while I'm critical of his job, I don't wan't him sacked, I want to see Murtough sacked and replaced with someone that is going to impose an identity and build a team accordingly. And when it comes to ETH, his history has a manager shows that he is able to implement a possession style but also able to implement a low block fast transition style because the latter was his approach before Ajax.

Regarding your first point, I think people assumed we would be a pressing/possession based team because his greatest success came with Ajax using this style and we have largely targeted many ex-Ajax players that ETH himself said were "familiar" with how he wants to play. Pretty easy connection to make there. I do agree that one of the biggest failures is essentially giving him free reign over EVERYTHING including recruitment as even the greatest managers would struggle with that. But the issue is right now is that he isn't coaching a low block NOR a high pressing team well. We basically do both at the same time (?) leaving a hilarious gap in the middle of the pitch allowing even the most ordinary of teams to turn every match into an end to end even contest.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Yeah it's nonsense, almost as bad as the "low block"

What the feck do you call either then? Managers themselves have used these terms

 

[JPRouve]

Regarding your first point, I think people assumed we would be a pressing/possession based team because his greatest success came with Ajax using this style and we have largely targeted many ex-Ajax players that ETH himself said were "familiar" with how he wants to play. Pretty easy connection to make there. I do agree that one of the biggest failures is essentially giving him free reign over EVERYTHING including recruitment as even the greatest managers would struggle with that. But the issue is right now is that he isn't coaching a low block NOR a high pressing team well. We basically do both at the same time (?) leaving a hilarious gap in the middle of the pitch allowing even the most ordinary of teams to turn every match into an end to end even contest.

I get why people ran to that conclusion, the only issue with it is that you can't make such conclusions without looking at a manager entire history. On paper ETH is a versatile manager who initially didn't adopt a possession style and seemingly only did it because it was Ajax's style and the one adapted to the players Overmars brought. Logically people should have paused and realize that no one actually knew whether he was going to keep Overmar's style or go back to the style he used before that. And the reason I made that point is precisely due to the conclusion you made, he is doing neither while doing both which leads to a proper mess. Currently United doesn't have an identity, I couldn't tell you what we this team is going to try beforehand, I can't even tell you what they are going to do during the next 15 minutes of any game. For all intent and purposes we are an amateur five-a-side Football team that uses 11 players and show no synergy, the only reason United doesn't have really bad results is because we have good individuals which includes almost all the players that the caf criticizes daily.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I get why people ran to that conclusion, the only issue with it is that you can't make such conclusions without looking at a manager entire history. On paper ETH is a versatile manager who initially didn't adopt a possession style and seemingly only did it because it was Ajax's style and the one adapted to the players Overmars brought. Logically people should have paused and realize that no one actually knew whether he was going to keep Overmar's style or go back to the style he used before that. And the reason I made that point is precisely due to the conclusion you made, he is doing neither while doing both which leads to a proper mess. Currently United doesn't have an identity, I couldn't tell you what we this team is going to try beforehand, I can't even tell you what they are going to do during the next 15 minutes of any game. For all intent and purposes we are an amateur five-a-side Football team that uses 11 players and show no synergy, the only reason United doesn't have really bad results is because we have good individuals which includes almost all the players that the caf criticizes daily.

I mean we DO have really bad results though? At least this year, we've lost 6 already in the league and the only reason we aren't worse off is we've managed to not draw any games. In the CL we are bottom of the table currently. So I don't agree with the insinuation that the players have been "saving" us and shouldn't be criticized like they have been.

 

[JPRouve]

I mean we DO have really bad results though? At least this year, we've lost 6 already in the league and the only reason we aren't worse off is we've managed to not draw any games. In the CL we are bottom of the table currently. So I don't agree with the insinuation that the players have been "saving" us and shouldn't be criticized like they have been.

First I didn't suggest that our players shouldn't be criticized, I made the point that the players that criticize are also the reason why our results aren't that bad, which was meant in the context of bad team performances. We have generally been collectively poor and yet our results aren't that bad. And the mention of 6 loses should be made in the context of a team somehow registering zero league draws, we are in December and have zero draws, we registed 8 wins which is one less than City or Liverpool.

Put our results in the context of our actual performances and injuries, you should quickly realize that they are no bad let alone really bad.

 

[NZT-One]

Not really,

He's suggesting he doesn't put much thought, if any at all, to his passes.
That's something we don't actually know if it's true, and chances are very very high it isn't true as he is an elite footballer with a ridiculous amount of assists to his name.

Why not say 'Bruno can be a little to hasty with his passes?'
That would be a more factual statement,

You can call it whatever you want. If you want him rather described as hasty, that is your thing, if the other guys says he doesn't put much thought into it, it is his thing. At the end of the day, most people will agree that Bruno is trigger happy to an extent, that it has a negative effect. I think, he is an instinctive player, who goes with the flow and thrives in a bit of chaos. He doesn't have to be a big "thinker" to create his assist numbers.

Excellent analysis as ever. I like how you covered things that stats don’t always show such as the spacing between the players, especially in build-up. We regularly look like we are outnumbered on the pitch.

With regards to our press, I must say that the issue is deeper than individual players like Rashford not doing their bit. The man-oriented press gets dragged out of position too easy and leaves giant gaps in the centre. Furthermore, when the opponent spreads out, it ensures that our press is not compact meaning that even if an individual wins the ball their teammates are too far away or in unnatural positions. I believe that all the large spaces the pressing players must cover ensure that the intensity of the first 20 or so minutes is unsustainable, thereby making us far easier to play against for the remainder of the match. It is no surprise that we have looked so unfit this season.

I am not sure, that the man-oriented approach (if existing) is the issue in this case. I am observing the same issues, too much space in the center, but for me, this originates from our bad vertical spacing. While our attacking players are pretty eager to close down opposition and initiate high turnovers, the defensive players are slow to react. The space is not going to be compressed which at the end of the day, is bad for everybody (except the opponent maybe).
It is one of the weird things with ETH, I am pretty sure, this high turnover thing is an objective he gave as a blueprint for the season. It makes sense of course. The issue is just that the team isn't synchronized and that this form of play for defensive players is pretty difficult to do. Lindelof or Maguire aren't agile and fast enough to feel comfortable higher up, in midfield there is nobody who could close down gaps by athleticism or mere mobility (like Fred). We look so bad because more often than not, it doesn't feel in sync. And everybody is fecked up with everybody because of course I'd be fuming seeing my press efforts being negated because it gets done by simple lob pass into a free space of 25m.

If you want a honest feedback, lot of the information in that video is ill informed. Just criticizing for the sake of it.

Understand we are crap now but when you see things like that being made up, you just can't stop laughing.

well done. Call the video with all the stats ill informed while not pointing out one specific mistake. But I am sure the author is thankful for that honest feedback.

Yeah it's nonsense, almost as bad as the "low block"

It is more your problems when terms that describe things create an urge to ridicule something. I guess the suggestion of the other poster, I think it was press-resiliant, didn't really catch up. Why would it, most fans know what it stands for.

I get why people ran to that conclusion, the only issue with it is that you can't make such conclusions without looking at a manager entire history. On paper ETH is a versatile manager who initially didn't adopt a possession style and seemingly only did it because it was Ajax's style and the one adapted to the players Overmars brought. Logically people should have paused and realize that no one actually knew whether he was going to keep Overmar's style or go back to the style he used before that. And the reason I made that point is precisely due to the conclusion you made, he is doing neither while doing both which leads to a proper mess. Currently United doesn't have an identity, I couldn't tell you what we this team is going to try beforehand, I can't even tell you what they are going to do during the next 15 minutes of any game. For all intent and purposes we are an amateur five-a-side Football team that uses 11 players and show no synergy, the only reason United doesn't have really bad results is because we have good individuals which includes almost all the players that the caf criticizes daily.

I see your point fully, don't want to disagree but I'd chip in two factors that challenge your take. In preseason 2022 and in the first two or three games, we have seen that ETH had something in mind but abandoned it quickly. Don't want to go into "was that possession based or transition based" but I think it was clear that he had something in mind and, for better or worse, change his plans after two losses. 2nd point, I think, some are maybe reading a little too much into what we saw this season. For a while the lineups were dictated by injuries, I think this definitely influences decisions. Right now, current form trends (or maybe just hopes) are influencing things. Thats why I would be cautious to put too much tactical "juice" into why Maguire and McTominay are regulars right now.

Just for the protocol: In principle I agree with you, but I think, the situation is difficult to assess because it is unclear what is actio and what is reactio. It is a mess, no doubt and definitely the manager is responsible for sorting it out. But I don't know if he really has a fair chance when the scrutiny rises more and more.

 

[Champ]

You can call it whatever you want. If you want him rather described as hasty, that is your thing, if the other guys says he doesn't put much thought into it, it is his thing. At the end of the day, most people will agree that Bruno is trigger happy to an extent, that it has a negative effect. I think, he is an instinctive player, who goes with the flow and thrives in a bit of chaos. He doesn't have to be a big "thinker" to create his assist numbers.


I am not sure, that the man-oriented approach (if existing) is the issue in this case. I am observing the same issues, too much space in the center, but for me, this originates from our bad vertical spacing. While our attacking players are pretty eager to close down opposition and initiate high turnovers, the defensive players are slow to react. The space is not going to be compressed which at the end of the day, is bad for everybody (except the opponent maybe).
It is one of the weird things with ETH, I am pretty sure, this high turnover thing is an objective he gave as a blueprint for the season. It makes sense of course. The issue is just that the team isn't synchronized and that this form of play for defensive players is pretty difficult to do. Lindelof or Maguire aren't agile and fast enough to feel comfortable higher up, in midfield there is nobody who could close down gaps by athleticism or mere mobility (like Fred). We look so bad because more often than not, it doesn't feel in sync. And everybody is fecked up with everybody because of course I'd be fuming seeing my press efforts being negated because it gets done by simple lob pass into a free space of 25m.


well done. Call the video with all the stats ill informed while not pointing out one specific mistake. But I am sure the author is thankful for that honest feedback.


It is more your problems when terms that describe things create an urge to ridicule something. I guess the suggestion of the other poster, I think it was press-resiliant, didn't really catch up. Why would it, most fans know what it stands for.


I see your point fully, don't want to disagree but I'd chip in two factors that challenge your take. In preseason 2022 and in the first two or three games, we have seen that ETH had something in mind but abandoned it quickly. Don't want to go into "was that possession based or transition based" but I think it was clear that he had something in mind and, for better or worse, change his plans after two losses. 2nd point, I think, some are maybe reading a little too much into what we saw this season. For a while the lineups were dictated by injuries, I think this definitely influences decisions. Right now, current form trends (or maybe just hopes) are influencing things. Thats why I would be cautious to put too much tactical "juice" into why Maguire and McTominay are regulars right now.

Just for the protocol: In principle I agree with you, but I think, the situation is difficult to assess because it is unclear what is actio and what is reactio. It is a mess, no doubt and definitely the manager is responsible for sorting it out. But I don't know if he really has a fair chance when the scrutiny rises more and more.

Bruno is far from a thoughtless player is the point, which is completely against the point made in the video.
To label him up as one is factually incorrect, unless he truly does not think about any pass he makes.

Press resistance still makes little to no sense when applied in footballing terms.

 

[SER19]

Using latest stats from Wyscout, I've put together an in-depth breakdown looking at our build up shape, chance creation, 1 v 1 defending, aerial duels, pressing and culture (plus much more).

Apart from progressive passing (indicating we are a very direct side) the stats make for some awful reading.

Do take a look, I think it will help many who are on the fence about manager/players realise just how much upheaval needs to be done to return United to a genuinely competitive state.

This is brilliantly done, congratulations. really enjoyable to watch, sometimes I zone out during tactic videos that become dull but this is great.

Certainly gives a bit of optimism that a fit shaw, martinez, casemiro and mainoo will improve things with a run together. Can also see why ten hag wanted de jong so much.

 

[NZT-One]

Bruno is far from a thoughtless player is the point, which is completely against the point made in the video.
To label him up as one is factually incorrect, unless he truly does not think about any pass he makes.

I don't think there is a point to be made. At the end of the day, the video creator doesn't know more than you or me or anybody. And the way he presented in the video was pretty accurate in my eyes. Don't think, he wanted to depict him as a 10 IQ individual just emphasize, that the player, for us, is very triggerhappy. Sometimes to the detriment of the team. You are welcome to not see it like that but stuff like "factually incorrect" won't change much. There are so many people that have realized that all of Brunos positive traits come with a certain toll. Like it or not - but it applies to each and every player. Don't know, maybe it is a personal thing at this point - if thats the case there is no need to discuss it any further.

Press resistance still makes little to no sense when applied in footballing terms.

Lets not get there again Again, I am all up for promoting your own term. But keep in mind, it is the same thing so many others mean when they use the now common term.

 

[Champ]

I don't think there is a point to be made. At the end of the day, the video creator doesn't know more than you or me or anybody. And the way he presented in the video was pretty accurate in my eyes. Don't think, he wanted to depict him as a 10 IQ individual just emphasize, that the player, for us, is very triggerhappy. Sometimes to the detriment of the team. You are welcome to not see it like that but stuff like "factually incorrect" won't change much. There are so many people that have realized that all of Brunos positive traits come with a certain toll. Like it or not - but it applies to each and every player. Don't know, maybe it is a personal thing at this point - if thats the case there is no need to discuss it any further.


Lets not get there again Again, I am all up for promoting your own term. But keep in mind, it is the same thing so many others mean when they use the now common term.

Fair enough,

I understand where you and the creator are coming from, I disagree with how it's promoted via the video, but each to their own I guess.

 

[JediSith]

Would City have kept Rashford or sold him for £80-£100m? Baring in mind they sold Cole Palmer for £40m in what many thought was going to be his breakout season, and at Chelsea it has been.

Rashford is genuinely an average player. He has 1-2 good attributes that can make him score goals but the premier and every other league has many examples of limited players who had seasons where they scored 20 plus goals. The dream of world class academy players leading United to success can’t be forced or even spoken about. It’s something that can only happen organically and by first having the courage to sell and profit from academy players who are good but not good enough.

 

[Physiocrat]

Good video Raees. I'm not sold on being a modern possession based side is the only way to be at the too but you really highlight the sheer disjointed nature of the side. It makes zero tactical sense - case in point, basically playing inverted forwards without overlapping full-backs or CMs who drift wide.

 

[bond19821982]

.


well done. Call the video with all the stats ill informed while not pointing out one specific mistake. But I am sure the author is thankful for that honest feedback.


It

Make no mistake video does have some valid points but majority of the video is guess work or just poiting fingers without stats. It's a long video- so don't even know where to start and I was too lazy to even point them out. Let me give you a quick synopsis.

Video keep saying long balls . Its not. It's the vertical transitions that's very effective when played correctly. Problem has been the availability of a Left footed to pin it to right. That's why we always see Maguire playing and he pins to his left. I don't like us being labeled as long ball team because we aren't.

Now they are saying our full backs don't come inside like Udogie or Porro. Ange's way of using inverted full back is different from Pep's way of doing. Udogie come inside and play high up with Son while Pep has his full back in midfield acting as a covering midfielder. So I don't know when they say we don't do it like Udogie.

Our build up play from defence has been an major issue. We all know that but again, no one expected the whole defence and midfield to be injured at the same time. This left footed thing isn't a Dutch thing. Pep does that always .

Also this 325 build up or 2116 build up is to get the numerical advantage when ball is played to wings. It's a very good tactic when played correctly because you have width, you have 2 attacking midfielders and a striker all looking for ball and right in front of the opponent box.Problem is our wingers has been extremely poor and we lose the ball at key places Failing to handle the defensive transition correctly. How many times we can relate this back to mistakes by our players where they couldn't complete the basic things properly?

This isn't a coaching issue. It's down to players not focusing or not doing the right thing. Now your solution is to bench them. While I agree, it could be due to multiple things. They have a huge say in dressing room (Rashy and Bruno) , or he has a pressure to play his own signings or we don't have sufficient replacement available (McT or Casemiro).

 

[MackRobinson]

Make no mistake video does have some valid points but majority of the video is guess work or just poiting fingers without stats. It's a long video- so don't even know where to start and I was too lazy to even point them out. Let me give you a quick synopsis.

Video keep saying long balls . Its not. It's the vertical transitions that's very effective when played correctly. Problem has been the availability of a Left footed to pin it to right. That's why we always see Maguire playing and he pins to his left. I don't like us being labeled as long ball team because we aren't.

Now they are saying our full backs don't come inside like Udogie or Porro. Ange's way of using inverted full back is different from Pep's way of doing. Udogie come inside and play high up with Son while Pep has his full back in midfield acting as a covering midfielder. So I don't know when they say we don't do it like Udogie.

Our build up play from defence has been an major issue. We all know that but again, no one expected the whole defence and midfield to be injured at the same time. This left footed thing isn't a Dutch thing. Pep does that always .

Also this 325 build up or 2116 build up is to get the numerical advantage when ball is played to wings. It's a very good tactic when played correctly because you have width, you have 2 attacking midfielders and a striker all looking for ball and right in front of the opponent box.Problem is our wingers has been extremely poor and we lose the ball at key places Failing to handle the defensive transition correctly. How many times we can relate this back to mistakes by our players where they couldn't complete the basic things properly?

This isn't a coaching issue. It's down to players not focusing or not doing the right thing. Now your solution is to bench them. While I agree, it could be due to multiple things. They have a huge say in dressing room (Rashy and Bruno) , or he has a pressure to play his own signings or we don't have sufficient replacement available (McT or Casemiro).

You were too lazy to even watch the video. He used stats to back up virtually everything, yet you didn't cite a single stat in either of your replies

 

[GazTheLegend]

What the feck do you call either then? Managers themselves have used these terms

Low block just a term that got coined I think Mourinho that then seemed to enter the football zeitgeist somehow, but it's just a posh way of saying playing defensively or defending deep and countering which is just something which has been done for a LONG time. Putting 10 men behind the ball isn't some sort of managerial masterclass and calling it a low block doesn't change that.

Calling a player "press resistant" is a similarly hipster postmodern word that just means a player has a shit first touch or is weak. If a player has a great first touch then I guess they are "press resistant" but it's just being sold by people who pretend to know a lot more than they really do about football.

 

[JPRouve]

Low block just a term that got coined I think Mourinho that then seemed to enter the football zeitgeist somehow, but it's just a posh way of saying playing defensively or defending deep and countering which is just something which has been done for a LONG time. Putting 10 men behind the ball isn't some sort of managerial masterclass and calling it a low block doesn't change that.

Calling a player "press resistant" is a similarly hipster postmodern word that just means a player has a shit first touch or is weak. If a player has a great first touch then I guess they are "press resistant" but it's just being sold by people who pretend to know a lot more than they really do about football.

It's not what it means or what it describes. It's not a posh or even particularly fancy term, it simply describes where a team within a gameplan ideally set their defensively line during transition. It's a term that only has sense with transition and it has nothing to do with countering or the attacking transition.

Frankly the anti-anything rethoric is particularly annoying, It's a ground for a total lack of thinking.

 

[stefan92]

Calling a player "press resistant" is a similarly hipster postmodern word that just means a player has a shit first touch or is weak. If a player has a great first touch then I guess they are "press resistant" but it's just being sold by people who pretend to know a lot more than they really do about football.

Being press resistant is not only about having a good first touch but also about staying calm when another player approaches you. Some players tend to lose the ball easily, others still are able to calmly pull of a good pass.

 

[MackRobinson]

Press resistant = composed in your own half

 

[NZT-One]

Low block just a term that got coined I think Mourinho that then seemed to enter the football zeitgeist somehow, but it's just a posh way of saying playing defensively or defending deep and countering which is just something which has been done for a LONG time. Putting 10 men behind the ball isn't some sort of managerial masterclass and calling it a low block doesn't change that.

Maybe I missed the part where somebody said it would be a new thing. By the way, I think, 10men behind the ball is more akin to park the bus. Low block defense means that ball winning is done in 1st third of the pitch (defensive third), midblock is 2nd third, high block is ballwinning with a high press in the offensive third.

Calling a player "press resistant" is a similarly hipster postmodern word that just means a player has a shit first touch or is weak. If a player has a great first touch then I guess they are "press resistant" but it's just being sold by people who pretend to know a lot more than they really do about football.

Fellaini was pressresistant because of his crazy upper body strength. 1st touch plays into it, being weak surely as well. But press resistant means a little wider "thing" - it means that a player is comfortable when under pressure meaning that he has the necessary technique to still fulfill his role in possession and that he has the necessary mental calmness so the pressure doesn't influence his decision making in a negative way.

And with both of those terms - its just descriptions. Language is moving forwards. Back in the day you also had aggressive players. Rooney or early Teves "pressed" defenders. But the term usually means an organised effort to press, to be aggressive towards opposition players. With the emergence of such systems, it is only obvious that managers thought about how to counter it and one way was/is the introduction of players having a certain skillset.

 

[NZT-One]

Press resistant = composed in your own half

See, interesting. Have never heard about it being restricted to certain areas on the pitch. Only shows that the latest football terms have the same "flaws" some of the older ones have. Everybody has a slightly different understanding. Be it "press resistent" or "good chance" or "be dominant".

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

My greatest issue with United currently is our spacing out of possession and the consistency of our pressing. That is what makes us easy to play against. It affects all four aspects of our play, our ability to defend our goal, our ability to progress the ball in build up, our ability to keep possession and our ability to create consistently good opportunities to score. Last season we did alright because especially at home those aspects were consistent.

 

[MackRobinson]

See, interesting. Have never heard about it being restricted to certain areas on the pitch. Only shows that the latest football terms have the same "flaws" some of the older ones have. Everybody has a slightly different understanding. Be it "press resistent" or "good chance" or "be dominant".

That's a fair point. I was tempted to call composure under pressure in general, but colloquially, press resistance is usually used to describe the build-up phase.

On second thought: composure under pressure in the build-up phase?

 

[klayton88]

Rashford and Bruno are the biggest problems for me. Don't see us winning let alone even competing for big trophies with them in the team.

 

[NZT-One]

Video keep saying long balls . Its not. It's the vertical transitions that's very effective when played correctly. Problem has been the availability of a Left footed to pin it to right. That's why we always see Maguire playing and he pins to his left. I don't like us being labeled as long ball team because we aren't.

I don't think the video wanted to depict us as being the latest iteration of Stoke City. But it is definitely easy to see that we use long balls quite frequently. To which flank doesn't really matter. You are right though - those are vertical transitions. Via long balls. (pretty sure our teams describes it as being direct and it is to a degree. But because we have next to no reliable dribbler and most midfielders aren't capable of a slick passing game, using long ball predominantly isn't a bad idea per se. It just isn't up there with the best teams in the world)

Now they are saying our full backs don't come inside like Udogie or Porro. Ange's way of using inverted full back is different from Pep's way of doing. Udogie come inside and play high up with Son while Pep has his full back in midfield acting as a covering midfielder. So I don't know when they say we don't do it like Udogie.

Fair enough. I understood the video a bit different. My takeaway was that he considered our fullbacks as neither greatly suited to neither role. Not as an attacking winger type ala Davies, not as a becoming midfielder type ala Mazraoui (?). They are something in between and in case of Dalot and AWB not even particularly great at anything.

Our build up play from defence has been an major issue. We all know that but again, no one expected the whole defence and midfield to be injured at the same time. This left footed thing isn't a Dutch thing. Pep does that always .

Not noticed this to be honest.

Also this 325 build up or 2116 build up is to get the numerical advantage when ball is played to wings. It's a very good tactic when played correctly because you have width, you have 2 attacking midfielders and a striker all looking for ball and right in front of the opponent box.Problem is our wingers has been extremely poor and we lose the ball at key places Failing to handle the defensive transition correctly. How many times we can relate this back to mistakes by our players where they couldn't complete the basic things properly?

See your point. But at a certain point repeated individual mistakes underline a systematic issue, don't you think? I agree with you, in principle this idea might work but it doesn't and it seems as if this is due us trying to skip a few steps on the skill ladder, trying something difficult without ever being decent at something easier. I also don't think that our approach makes too much sense - midfield is almost empty so often there are no easy passing options and players are generally too far apart.

This isn't a coaching issue. It's down to players not focusing or not doing the right thing. Now your solution is to bench them. While I agree, it could be due to multiple things. They have a huge say in dressing room (Rashy and Bruno) , or he has a pressure to play his own signings or we don't have sufficient replacement available (McT or Casemiro).

Hmm. For me personally, yes and no. Personally it feels as if a few posters try to push the blame mostly into one direction, be that a certain group of players, all players, the manager, everybody but the manager, the owners whatever. At the end of the day, all of them are responsible for the shit we are stuck in right now and, unfortunately, they are required to work together to get us out there.
A few players don't seem to be there completely - like Rashford in the last weeks especially. Be that down to the Manager asking him to do something he doesn't feel comfortable with or what he is shit at - I don't know. But the manager is certainly involved - be it through his "wrong" instructions or his insistence of playing Rashford when he isn't doing what he is supposed to do.