Sell Rashford, Sell Bruno?... Statistical Breakdown Of The Root Causes Behind Ten Hag's Project Stalling?

Raees

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Using latest stats from Wyscout, I've put together an in-depth breakdown looking at our build up shape, chance creation, 1 v 1 defending, aerial duels, pressing and culture (plus much more).

Apart from progressive passing (indicating we are a very direct side) the stats make for some awful reading.

Do take a look, I think it will help many who are on the fence about manager/players realise just how much upheaval needs to be done to return United to a genuinely competitive state.
 
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He’s spent insane money and appears to have done it mainly on players who would be best in possession sides (Onana, Martinez, Antony).
Despite this he doesn’t seem interested in making us a possession team, instead a transition one. Some players who are shite in possession he desperately wanted to sell, yet now are dead certs to start.
I don’t therefore think players are failing him, or that we once again need to nuke the squad, he, or a new manager needs to fuxking decide how we want to play, and pick sides based on that.
How the feck you can start last season completely leaving AWB in the cold due to his poor ability in a possession side, or do the same with McTominay this season for the same reasons, only to completely do a 180 within a matter of months is bananas and extremely telling.

It’s my opinion he’s currently failing the players by being so indecisive on what he wants from this team. I mean, if we’re not gonna be a possession side, why the feck did we buy Onana? it’s mind boggling.
 
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Ace of Spades

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He’s spent insane money and appears to have done it mainly on players who would be best in possession sides (Onana, Martinez, Antony).
Despite this he doesn’t seem interested in making us a possession team, instead a transition one. Some players who are shite in possession he desperately wanted to sell, yet now are dead certs to start.
I don’t therefore think players are failing him, or that we once again need to nuke the squad, he, or a new manager needs to fuxking decide how we want to make, and pick sides based on that
This.

Lost a lot of confidence in him when he started talking about how he wants to be a transition based team, instead of a possession based one, after spending a boat load of money on his ex-players who are suited for possession based game.

Maybe some players are an issue, but I don't see the entire squad have given up. A lot of the players are still putting in the work, we just look clueless and badly coached, with an abysmal plan. It does not help that some players seem to be in the team, irrespective of their performance.
 

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Using latest stats from Wyscout, I've put together an in-depth breakdown looking at our build up shape, chance creation, 1 v 1 defending, aerial duels, pressing and culture (plus much more).

Apart from progressive passing (indicating we are a very direct side) the stats make for some awful reading.

Do take a look, I think it will help many who are on the fence about manager/players realise just how much upheaval needs to be done to return United to a genuinely competitive state.
I'll give this a watch today. How did you get into tactical analysis? It's something I'd love to be better at understanding.
 
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I’d also add that I don’t believe Mainoo or any single individual can/will be a game changer for United, not even the manager’s beloved FdJ. The problem runs much deeper than that, a manager that has only ever managed possession based sides appears to think he can reinvent the wheel.
He appears currently to have no conviction in personnel decisions, see Maguire, AWB, McTom, Varane, Antony; and he has a similar issue with his playing style. The fans are confused, as I’m sure the players are too, and that is reflected on the pitch.

Let’s hope ETH gets his head straight asap but even now I fear for him because he appeared to start his tenure wanting possession, has then changed to transition and another 180 with his tactics will likely cause even more confusion with the players.

As @Ace of Spades says above, he’s lost so much confidence by saying he wants us to be the best transition team and that “we can’t play like Ajax”, because that style was exactly the fecking reason we signed him. If we wanted a manager that focuses on transitions over control/possession, we may as well have kept Mourinho, because he, unlike ETH, actually had history of being successful using those tactics.
 
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Champ

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When the term press resistant is used, that's when I switch off. :lol:

Well made video though. Not sure I agree with loads of it however.
 

JPRouve

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I’d also add that I don’t believe Mainoo or any single individual can/will be a game changer for United, not even the manager’s beloved FdJ. The problem runs much deeper than that, a manager that has only ever managed possession based sides appears to think he can reinvent the wheel.
He appears currently to have no conviction in personnel decisions, see Maguire, AWB, McTom, Varane, Antony; and he has a similar issue with his playing style. The fans are confused, as I’m sure the players are too, and that is reflected on the pitch.

Let’s hope ETH gets his head straight asap but even now I fear for him because he appeared to start his tenure wanting possession, has then changed to transition and another 180 with his tactics will likely cause even more confusion with the players.

As @Ace of Spades says above, he’s lost so much confidence by saying he wants us to be the best transition team and that “we can’t play like Ajax”, because that style was exactly the fecking reason we signed him. If we wanted a manager that focuses on transitions over control/possession, we may as well have kept Mourinho, because he, unlike ETH, actually had history of being successful using those tactics.
ETH has only based his tactics on possession with Ajax and even then it wasn't the case in the CL. ETH is not a possession manager, he adapted to it at Ajax in Eredivisie because Overmars gave him a team that was a good fit for it. Which in my opinion makes things worse, I suspect that there is an issue with ETH's ego, our tactics have largely been senseless, it's fairly difficult to understand the tactical goals of his decisions.
 

sglowrider

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Video takeaways are he is doing well and deserves a contract extension to shift the power dynamics away from the players to the management team.
 
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ETH has only based his tactics on possession with Ajax and even then it wasn't the case in the CL. ETH is not a possession manager, he adapted to it at Ajax in Eredivisie because Overmars gave him a team that was a good fit for it. Which in my opinion makes things worse, I suspect that there is an issue with ETH's ego, our tactics have largely been senseless, it's fairly difficult to understand the tactical goals of his decisions.
I get that, but he was brought in because of his time at Ajax. The only place he has managed any kind of notable success.
And even in the CL, he’s still the manager who managed 49% possession away to Poch’s very possession based Spurs side who later managed 61% vs. Klopp’s Liverpool in the CL final. And 50% vs. Madrid at home.

Yet here you feel he’s happy with 35% at home to Brighton.

As you say, it’s bizarre, and utterly incomprehensible right now. I just can’t wrap my head around what manager signs Martinez, Antony and especially fecking Onana, yet doesn’t want to play a possession heavy game.
 

Based Adnan

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He’s spent insane money and appears to have done it mainly on players who would be best in possession sides (Onana, Martinez, Antony).
Despite this he doesn’t seem interested in making us a possession team, instead a transition one. Some players who are shite in possession he desperately wanted to sell, yet now are dead certs to start.
I don’t therefore think players are failing him, or that we once again need to nuke the squad, he, or a new manager needs to fuxking decide how we want to play, and pick sides based on that.
How the feck you can start last season completely leaving AWB in the cold due to his poor ability in a possession side, or do the same with McTominay this season for the same reasons, only to completely do a 180 within a matter of months is bananas and extremely telling.
Could not agree more. To me it seems like he's gone about building a possession based team originally but didn't want to get rid of the two biggest players in the team that don't fit that style in Rashford and Bruno. There's also the bizarre flipflopping of transfer strategy when we went from targetting Frenkie De Jong to then signing Casemiro. Two completely different profiles. He seems to want to mix and match profiles of players without committing solely to one style. Now he's brought back the likes of AWB, McTominay and Maguire from banishment. Players I'd argue aren't good enough regardless of style but certainly players that are contradictory to the players he's spent most of his money on.
 
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but certainly players that are contradictory to the players he's spent most of his money on.
boom!

As for Bruno, I personally disagree strongly that he can’t play possession, he’s clearly shown on occasions he can. However, at some point, as you say, the manager has decided to abandon everything to rely solely on Bruno playing a high risk game, where wide forwards like Rashford and Garnacho suit much better than the likes of the more possession certain Antony.
Odd.

I’m sure his ego convinces him that he’s simply being pragmatic, yet in reality, he’s currently playing a much shitter and toothless version of Ole-ball.
 
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Raees

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When the term press resistant is used, that's when I switch off. :lol:

Well made video though. Not sure I agree with loads of it however.
Be keen to know which bits you disagree on just so I can take on board the feedback or perhaps debate.
 

norm87cro

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Yes lets do that and sign ETHs yes men who are no better while Bruno does well at Barcelona and Rashford at Chelsea or Newcastle.
The CAF has turned to absolute madness
 

JPRouve

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I get that, but he was brought in because of his time at Ajax. The only place he has managed any kind of notable success.
And even in the CL, he’s still the manager who managed 49% possession away to Poch’s very possession based Spurs side who later managed 61% vs. Klopp’s Liverpool in the CL final. And 50% vs. Madrid at home.

Yet here you feel he’s happy with 35% at home to Brighton.

As you say, it’s bizarre, and utterly incomprehensible right now. I just can’t wrap my head around what manager signs Martinez, Antony and especially fecking Onana, yet doesn’t want to play a possession heavy game.
You first sentence is to me a mistake for two reasons first because you should never ignore the full history of someone and base your expectation on that flawed context and also he didn't build that team, he has no idea or experience building such teams, he was given a team and had to adapt to it. That last point is the most important one, what made ETH interesting was his ability to adapt to different personnel and it's the one thing that he isn't doing well at United which is why as an armchair psychologist I believe that it's his ego preventing him from pulling his head from his backside.

Also Pochettino isn't a possession manager and Spurs weren't very possession oriented, you are making the mistake in your use of stats. Tottenham had high possessions stats because they were one if not the best gegenpress team in Europe, their mentality wasn't to keep possession but to regain possession very quickly while being a very direct team, at some point on average they would regain possession deep into the opposition own half(it's the season where they scored the most goals if I remember correctly) and score through fast breaks.

And that remark is somewhat important in our case. There are two big ways to have large possession of the ball and these often(City is an exception, they can do both) require two completely different types of players. You have the Barcelona/Spain Tiki Taka which requires highly technical players that will heavily lean on their technical superiority and won't give the ball back until they reached an "easy" goalscoring opportuntiy and then you have the high level gegenpress tactics which relies on players that are generally less technical but far better athletes, they don't maintain possession but regain it at an incredible pace, an example of such teams will be Dortmund under Klopp, 2015-2018 Spurs under Pochettino, the first versions of Liverpool under Klopp, Bayern under Heynckes or the memorable Chile under Bielsa-Sampaoli.
The short version is that high possession stats are divided in two groups, the teams that wants to keep the ball at all cost and the teams that prevents you from keeping it at all cost. ETH for some reason seem to be stuck between two opposite mentalities.
 

Berbaclass

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Why do we think that we’re persisting with our flawed 2-3-5 in build up?

It’s obvious to anyone that the gaps are too big so I don’t understand why he hasn’t reverted to something else.
 

VivaObertan

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So; your suggestions for players to keep are:

  • Onana - at fault for countless goals this season and hasn't shown anywhere near the level required
  • Shaw - Move into CB to create the world's smallest pairing whilst replacing with an inferior LB.
  • Martinez - Move from his preferred LCB to accommodate Shaw. Has not had a great United career thus far. Poor performances following the World Cup and injured for his time here.
  • Mainoo - Has played 3 (?) senior games and looked largely anonymous against Newcastle. It's fine to use the arguments 'he was used incorrectly' or 'midfield pairing wasn't right', but that excuse isn't afforded to any of our other players.
  • Hojlund - Has scored 30 goals in 4 seasons across 100 appearances as a striker but he's surviving the cull.
And then spend close to £500m on 6 new players?

Not blaming you personally but as United fans, we tend to overhype potential such as Mainoo and Hojlund without appreciating there's every chance they don't hit the levels we require. We saw it with Pogba, Januzaj, Greenwood, Martial and so many more... but then we're hyper-critical of seasoned professionals such as Varane, Maguire, Dalot, Casemiro, McTominay, Eriksen, Bruno and Rashford.

The whole team is suffering right now and the manager isn't getting the best out of any of them. Dalot is playing CM, Casemiro/Mainoo have to anchor an entire midfield alone, McTominay is a SS/RW hybrid, Bruno is playing 4-5 positions and multiple roles in a single game... and it's all due to tactical decisions. The solution isn't to sell our best players and replace them with new shiny things, it's to implement an effective system based on the players available.
 

VivaObertan

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Why do we think that we’re persisting with our flawed 2-3-5 in build up?

It’s obvious to anyone that the gaps are too big so I don’t understand why he hasn’t reverted to something else.
IMO, it's really, really dumb that we continue to persist with this setup. Our squad isn't as bad as recent performances suggest: We might not be able to emulate City football but not many teams do. It's ETH's job to get results and the whole world can see that across our XI; key players are being underutilised or asked to do things that expose their weaknesses. He's like the anti-Ancelotti right now.
 

RyRy11

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So; your suggestions for players to keep are:

  • Onana - at fault for countless goals this season and hasn't shown anywhere near the level required
  • Shaw - Move into CB to create the world's smallest pairing whilst replacing with an inferior LB.
  • Martinez - Move from his preferred LCB to accommodate Shaw. Has not had a great United career thus far. Poor performances following the World Cup and injured for his time here.
  • Mainoo - Has played 3 (?) senior games and looked largely anonymous against Newcastle. It's fine to use the arguments 'he was used incorrectly' or 'midfield pairing wasn't right', but that excuse isn't afforded to any of our other players.
  • Hojlund - Has scored 30 goals in 4 seasons across 100 appearances as a striker but he's surviving the cull.
And then spend close to £500m on 6 new players?

Not blaming you personally but as United fans, we tend to overhype potential such as Mainoo and Hojlund without appreciating there's every chance they don't hit the levels we require. We saw it with Pogba, Januzaj, Greenwood, Martial and so many more... but then we're hyper-critical of seasoned professionals such as Varane, Maguire, Dalot, Casemiro, McTominay, Eriksen, Bruno and Rashford.

The whole team is suffering right now and the manager isn't getting the best out of any of them. Dalot is playing CM, Casemiro/Mainoo have to anchor an entire midfield alone, McTominay is a SS/RW hybrid, Bruno is playing 4-5 positions and multiple roles in a single game... and it's all due to tactical decisions. The solution isn't to sell our best players and replace them with new shiny things, it's to implement an effective system based on the players available.
What would this system be then based on your judgement?
 

UpWithRivers

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I said this last year with De Gea and Maguire that they are better passers than they look like because its the system is not set up for them to succeed. If you have no structure and options to pass to then you are fkd. Its that simple. Put De Gea and Maguire in the Brighton team and you will see them doing ok. Sure they are still not elite but a lot of it is the structure. Thats been proved with Onana. Even he cant pass in this team.
I can go on with how the players are being fkd by the system as much as the system is being fkd by the players.
My question is what the fk do you think he is trying to do? You can talk all day about bringing in a Regista etc but even then the structure is just weird. You can see it with Mainoo. He can take the ball off the defense, break the press and then has no one to pass it to. Plus ETH obviously doesn't even want a Regista. His first option is Case, Mount, Bruno.
ETH is not an idiot. He must be trying to do something and its just not working. For the life of me I cant figure it out. And I don't think anyone else can either. Not even the players. The dreamer in me is hoping it will just click and we will all go 'oh wow. thats what it is.' But I dream of Kyle Jenner sometimes and I dont think either will happen
 

Champ

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Be keen to know which bits you disagree on just so I can take on board the feedback or perhaps debate.
Calling Bruno and 'act first think later' player is a subjective rather than factual phrase.
He likes to look for an early release sure, but to claim he isn't thinking about it or doesn't have the pass in mind is more likely than not incorrect and is a subjective thought.

Also, in terms of long shots, United have some quality strikers of the ball, Rashford, Bruno, Antony, Garnacho, I'd even lump McT into that as well. They are all capable of scoring from distance, so to call that 'hollywood' is a stretch, plus it worked last season well, and we have three more long shots that City in your graphics this season, a team based around getting the ball into the box, hardly a ridiculous amount, especially if, as you go on to say, we lack aerial presence in the box.

I did especially like the team selection section towards the end though, good to listen to.
 

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Its extremely rare that I watch a Youtube video on United and agree with it 100%. This is such a rare case.
As usual in your videos, every point is underlined via stats as well as examples from games to provide the eye test.
Excellent work Raees
 

Lyng

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Calling Bruno and 'act first think later' player is a subjective rather than factual phrase.
There are so many examples shown in this video of exactly that and its a common theme debated in almost every United match.
 

UpWithRivers

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Calling Bruno and 'act first think later' player is a subjective rather than factual phrase.
He likes to look for an early release sure, but to claim he isn't thinking about it or doesn't have the pass in mind is more likely than not incorrect and is a subjective thought.

Also, in terms of long shots, United have some quality strikers of the ball, Rashford, Bruno, Antony, Garnacho, I'd even lump McT into that as well. They are all capable of scoring from distance, so to call that 'hollywood' is a stretch, plus it worked last season well, and we have three more long shots that City in your graphics this season, a team based around getting the ball into the box, hardly a ridiculous amount, especially if, as you go on to say, we lack aerial presence in the box.

I did especially like the team selection section towards the end though, good to listen to.
You're being pedantic. We all know what he means
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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I said this last year with De Gea and Maguire that they are better passers than they look like because its the system is not set up for them to succeed. If you have no structure and options to pass to then you are fkd. Its that simple. Put De Gea and Maguire in the Brighton team and you will see them doing ok. Sure they are still not elite but a lot of it is the structure. Thats been proved with Onana. Even he cant pass in this team.
I can go on with how the players are being fkd by the system as much as the system is being fkd by the players.
My question is what the fk do you think he is trying to do? You can talk all day about bringing in a Regista etc but even then the structure is just weird. You can see it with Mainoo. He can take the ball off the defense, break the press and then has no one to pass it to. Plus ETH obviously doesn't even want a Regista. His first option is Case, Mount, Bruno.
ETH is not an idiot. He must be trying to do something and its just not working. For the life of me I cant figure it out. And I don't think anyone else can either. Not even the players. The dreamer in me is hoping it will just click and we will all go 'oh wow. thats what it is.' But I dream of Kyle Jenner sometimes and I dont think either will happen
With Maguire and De Gea in Brighton's build-up, De Zerbi would have already been back in Serie A, managing midtable clubs. It's one thing to discuss where he's gone wrong, and it's another to treat him like the devil incarnate. Why doesn't the build-up function well against the poorer sides that don't commit many players to their press? A 3-1 or a 2-3 shape, plus the keeper, should be more than enough against sides that just use 2–3 players to cause us problems. Just how many players should we get behind the ball, 6-7- everybody? Why can't we move the ball upward with pace and purpose when it's clear that we have the numerical advantage in our third?
 

jderbyshire

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Using latest stats from Wyscout, I've put together an in-depth breakdown looking at our build up shape, chance creation, 1 v 1 defending, aerial duels, pressing and culture (plus much more).

Apart from progressive passing (indicating we are a very direct side) the stats make for some awful reading.

Do take a look, I think it will help many who are on the fence about manager/players realise just how much upheaval needs to be done to return United to a genuinely competitive state.
I watched this this morning - very good video mate and can I just say I enjoy all your videos.

You're the only tactical analysis creator on YouTube that I can watch without my mind drifting.

It really is sad how much work still needs to be done with the squad.
 

jderbyshire

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This.

Lost a lot of confidence in him when he started talking about how he wants to be a transition based team, instead of a possession based one, after spending a boat load of money on his ex-players who are suited for possession based game.

Maybe some players are an issue, but I don't see the entire squad have given up. A lot of the players are still putting in the work, we just look clueless and badly coached, with an abysmal plan. It does not help that some players seem to be in the team, irrespective of their performance.
But transition doesn't necessarily mean counter attacking, does it?

Transition could be referring to turnovers, created by high-pressing, not antithetical to possession football.
 

Champ

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You're being pedantic. We all know what he means
Not really,

He's suggesting he doesn't put much thought, if any at all, to his passes.
That's something we don't actually know if it's true, and chances are very very high it isn't true as he is an elite footballer with a ridiculous amount of assists to his name.

Why not say 'Bruno can be a little to hasty with his passes?'
That would be a more factual statement,
 

Solius

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Watched this morning, good video but very depressing :lol:
 

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I mean people can blame him for not sticking to a possession philosophy but half our squad don't suit it and we've been utter shite trying to persist through it. Our performances at the start of the season are a testament to that.

Radical thought too but... what if the transition to a transition team is itself a transition? I don't think we've seen Ten Hag's final form myself and it'll probably take a couple more offseasons to get the team he wants. Patience, young grasshoppers.

Will watch the video later if this wasn't your overall conclusion, which I suspect it was judging by the thread title :)
 

hobbers

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Rashford is a lost cause who needs shipped off abroad. His united career is over.

As for Bruno… All our best football under Ole and all our best football under ETH came when Bruno plays high up the pitch, usually as a second striker. He makes good runs and creates chances.

All our worst football happened when Bruno dropped deeper. He doesn’t have the ability to take the ball on the turn. He can’t carry the ball. He makes so many moronic no-look passes and flicks in our own half because he knows this and always has to move the ball on rapidly.

Our best period under Hag came when Eriksen played close to Casemiro and Martinez. Eriksen could hit vertical passes into Bruno in dangerous areas. With those two having used up all their form and fitness now Bruno can only be a hindrance again.
 

Ace of Spades

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But transition doesn't necessarily mean counter attacking, does it?

Transition could be referring to turnovers, created by high-pressing, not antithetical to possession football.
Transition is not always mean counter attacking, but it is pretty antithetical to possession football.

In any case, I would take any style right now as long as it at least works. So far we just look like we barely have a style , and just launch shit long balls and failing to even do that right.
 

r0663664

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Football is a team sports, I will take a hardworking team over United. The commandiare is totally missing in this squad, we have a captain that moans alot instead of holding players accountable on the field. We have a lazy as feck player (Rashford) who only wants to attack and not defend. We have a limited midfield who is neither a AM or a DM has doesn't have the pace and awareness of the danger in front of goal. We have a one trick pony who can only use his left foot who likes shooting instead of passing or crossing. It is a group that is assembled by Erik which will not win anything in the next few years.
 

jderbyshire

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Transition is not always mean counter attacking, but it is pretty antithetical to possession football.

In any case, I would take any style right now as long as it at least works. So far we just look like we barely have a style , and just launch shit long balls and failing to even do that right.
Yeah absolutely - it's something that's addressed in the video.
 

THE ZOL

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Using latest stats from Wyscout, I've put together an in-depth breakdown looking at our build up shape, chance creation, 1 v 1 defending, aerial duels, pressing and culture (plus much more).

Apart from progressive passing (indicating we are a very direct side) the stats make for some awful reading.

Do take a look, I think it will help many who are on the fence about manager/players realise just how much upheaval needs to be done to return United to a genuinely competitive state.
Excellent analysis as ever. I like how you covered things that stats don’t always show such as the spacing between the players, especially in build-up. We regularly look like we are outnumbered on the pitch.

With regards to our press, I must say that the issue is deeper than individual players like Rashford not doing their bit. The man-oriented press gets dragged out of position too easy and leaves giant gaps in the centre. Furthermore, when the opponent spreads out, it ensures that our press is not compact meaning that even if an individual wins the ball their teammates are too far away or in unnatural positions. I believe that all the large spaces the pressing players must cover ensure that the intensity of the first 20 or so minutes is unsustainable, thereby making us far easier to play against for the remainder of the match. It is no surprise that we have looked so unfit this season.
 

JPRouve

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I mean people can blame him for not sticking to a possession philosophy but half our squad don't suit it and we've been utter shite trying to persist through it. Our performances at the start of the season are a testament to that.

Radical thought too but... what if the transition to a transition team is itself a transition? I don't think we've seen Ten Hag's final form myself and it'll probably take a couple more offseasons to get the team he wants. Patience, young grasshoppers.

Will watch the video later if this wasn't your overall conclusion, which I suspect it was judging by the thread title :)
That would be a good point if United had a particular or different approach under Ole or during ETH's first season. So one may ask where are we transitioning from and where are we supposed to land?
 

Reyoji-Utd

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Messages
397
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USA
If you wants the manager and the club to succeed, i think you have to have a structure for him to achieve it. We didnt have it for ANY manager to succeed in United. Its because we have no decision makers on the top down. We have Glazers who are half arsing about their decision re budgets, players sales, and support of any managers.

How any managers going to succeeed or implement their style or tactics if they have to include some of the players that we have like Rashford, Bruno, Harry M, AWB...etc. They are good players and could be very good if we play a certain counter or direct style (that atleast i think we agree on) but not so mucb if we want to play possession and pressing styles (what fans want). Can they be coach to play it, maybe, but not to the very best (United wants,) needs, and deserve). Fans been saying that the stick is on EtH because he keeps changing his style and not been able to play the Ajax style he used to (and what we fans think we will have. However, how is he going to play that way if his hand is tied with some starters that not fit to that. Can he go ahead and sell Rashford, Bruno, Harry M, AWB...etc? The answer was what we saw this past season, he couldnt. The top wont let him sell Bruno or Rashford, they are poster boys for the club marketing team and owner to make money. Then the easier way is to change the way he wants to play and find a way to accomodate players and play to their strenght. It got to what we get. Also, players know so well that most fans will just go ahead and blame the manager and will continue to give chances after chances to them.

Do we realise that we still have players that last almost 10 years with all the managers that been sacked. I give you benefit of the doubt if its 1,2, even 3 managers but 4,5,6 then you have to be accounted.

Im not defending EtH in any way, sacked him if we want but are we sure the next one will do btter than him and not just be the same like the last managers that have a honeymoon 1 year period and blow up the next when the times are tough and players will just downtooling becaus they know well that the blame and sacking will be on the managers.
 

RedSky

Shepherd’s Delight
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Hereford FC (Soccermanager)
So; your suggestions for players to keep are:

  • Onana - at fault for countless goals this season and hasn't shown anywhere near the level required
  • Shaw - Move into CB to create the world's smallest pairing whilst replacing with an inferior LB.
  • Martinez - Move from his preferred LCB to accommodate Shaw. Has not had a great United career thus far. Poor performances following the World Cup and injured for his time here.
  • Mainoo - Has played 3 (?) senior games and looked largely anonymous against Newcastle. It's fine to use the arguments 'he was used incorrectly' or 'midfield pairing wasn't right', but that excuse isn't afforded to any of our other players.
  • Hojlund - Has scored 30 goals in 4 seasons across 100 appearances as a striker but he's surviving the cull.
And then spend close to £500m on 6 new players?

Not blaming you personally but as United fans, we tend to overhype potential such as Mainoo and Hojlund without appreciating there's every chance they don't hit the levels we require. We saw it with Pogba, Januzaj, Greenwood, Martial and so many more... but then we're hyper-critical of seasoned professionals such as Varane, Maguire, Dalot, Casemiro, McTominay, Eriksen, Bruno and Rashford.

The whole team is suffering right now and the manager isn't getting the best out of any of them. Dalot is playing CM, Casemiro/Mainoo have to anchor an entire midfield alone, McTominay is a SS/RW hybrid, Bruno is playing 4-5 positions and multiple roles in a single game... and it's all due to tactical decisions. The solution isn't to sell our best players and replace them with new shiny things, it's to implement an effective system based on the players available.
Agreed.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
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Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,243
Location
France
If you wants the manager and the club to succeed, i think you have to have a structure for him to achieve it. We didnt have it for ANY manager to succeed in United. Its because we have no decision makers on the top down. We have Glazers who are half arsing about their decision re budgets, players sales, and support of any managers.

How any managers going to succeeed or implement their style or tactics if they have to include some of the players that we have like Rashford, Bruno, Harry M, AWB...etc. They are good players and could be very good if we play a certain counter or direct style (that atleast i think we agree on) but not so mucb if we want to play possession and pressing styles (what fans want). Can they be coach to play it, maybe, but not to the very best (United wants,) needs, and deserve). Fans been saying that the stick is on EtH because he keeps changing his style and not been able to play the Ajax style he used to (and what we fans think we will have. However, how is he going to play that way if his hand is tied with some starters that not fit to that. Can he go ahead and sell Rashford, Bruno, Harry M, AWB...etc? The answer was what we saw this past season, he couldnt. The top wont let him sell Bruno or Rashford, they are poster boys for the club marketing team and owner to make money. Then the easier way is to change the way he wants to play and find a way to accomodate players and play to their strenght. It got to what we get. Also, players know so well that most fans will just go ahead and blame the manager and will continue to give chances after chances to them.

Do we realise that we still have players that last almost 10 years with all the managers that been sacked. I give you benefit of the doubt if its 1,2, even 3 managers but 4,5,6 then you have to be accounted.

Im not defending EtH in any way, sacked him if we want but are we sure the next one will do btter than him and not just be the same like the last managers that have a honeymoon 1 year period and blow up the next when the times are tough and players will just downtooling becaus they know well that the blame and sacking will be on the managers.
I genuinely don't understand this. ETH hasn't changed his style and United hasn't changed its style under ETH. So who is suggesting that and why? If anything tactically speaking ETH has made sure that we can't be a possession team because he overloads the opposition final third instead of overloading the middle third, that has been a constant and unless the man is a bonafide idiot, it's because his intention isn't to transition slowly.