dont want to drag this on, but cmon please lets have some sense......making out someone whos won 1 World Cup, 2 European Championships and 4 Champ Leagues, as well countless other titles and been a mainstay in the team of the season from the likes of UEFA for that past decade is somehow a defensive liability, is well childish. yes he can be a real git, but when you think of the career and success he's had, to make out that hes the Spanish Phil Jones (as many international goals as he has world cup and champions league wins, btw Ramos has 23 international goals) is just being contrarian.