Serie A 90's Draft Round 1 - Idmanager vs Lord SInister

[2mufc0]

PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING: voting should be based on player performances in Serie A/Coppa Italia from the 90/91 season to 99/00. Performances outside this timeframe or other competitions do not count.

TEAM IDMANAGER

VS

TEAM LORD SINISTER

Spoiler: Team befor tactical change

IDMANAGER TACTICS

Giovanni Cervone : Ever present for Roma as their No.1 for most part of the 90s. Very reliable presence at goal.

Roberto Ayala : The defense is organized by one of the best CB's in the pool. A very complete defender who was good both in the ir and tackling on the ground while also capable of initiating play from the back.

Taribo West : Physically strong and fast defender. Exactly the kind of player one would partner with Ayala. Championship Manager legend (He was a better pick than Baresi in that game)

Giuseppe Favalli : An old fashioned defensive left back and one of the best after Maldini in the era. He was as reliable and consistent as it gets and a defensive rock down the left.

Angelo Di Livio : His job is to do exactly what he did so well for Juventus and summed up by Baggio using the below nickname.
He was known as soldatino (little soldier) or soldatino Di Livio, a nickname his Juventus teammate at the time Roberto Baggio gave him because of Di Livio's characteristic way of running up and down the flank.

Frank Rijkaard : In a draft that hardly has any sort of width apart from wingbacks, the greatest DM of all time becomes the best asset defensively. Does'nt need any introduction.

Edgar Davids : If having Rijkaard wasn't enough, there is Davids in the B2B role as well alongside. Between them nothing is going to get past that midfield and ends the midfield battle as a competition before it begins.
He would help out Di Livio when the latter is in advanced positions.

Alvaro Recoba : His left foot was probably among the best 3 left foots of the era. He is positioned in an advanced role between the left and central zones which give him the freedom to impact areas he was best at with lots of space ahead of him.
With Rijkaard and Davids alongside him and Favalli marshalling at LB, he wouldn't have any defensive responsibilities.

Ariel Ortega : A highly creative player with excellent technical ability, Ortega was well known for his pace, mobility, dribbling, and skills from dead ball situations, as well as his ball trickery, clever body feints, and lobbed shots.
He was one of the best dribblers in the world. Ortega was an effective play maker due to his vision and passing ability.

Hernan Crespo : One of the best strikers in the pool. He not only guarantees goals, he also creates them. Fast, creative and scores both his head and feet. Perfect for my setup.
Crespo and Ortega is a proven partnership at various levels and in various forums.

Marcelo Salas : The grestest Chilean striker of all time and our latest recruit Alexis Sanchez's idol. He was amazing for Lazio at the end of the decade in one of their best team winning both the Serie A and Coppa Italia in the process.

LORD SINISTER TACTICS

Players:

A strong and no-nonsense, flat four back with solid pairing Carrera and Torricelli in the middle, flanked by the Carnasciali and the legendary Maldini, with a solid goalkeeper in Ielpo.

In the middle we have a Leonardo and Conceição in the wide midfield helping the central midfield pair of Winter and di Matteo.

In the attack we are having the goal machine Signori with the technically outstanding Montella.


Tactics:

Playing a defensive 4-4-2 with intense pressing.
Som points:

• The team is instructed to sit deep in a narrow, compact shape in order to prevent the opponent from creating scoring chances.
  
• The team only breaks the shape to press the ball when the odds of success are high and the cost of failure is minimal.
• When the ball is won, it is played forward quickly because fast attacks can catch opponents off balance and turning the ball over in the attacking third is less costly than turning it over in your own defensive third or in midfield.
• All the players in the team will be assisting defensively and sacrifice individual expression for the sake of the system
• Fanatically aggressive pressing style in wide areas and in defined situations in central areas.
  
• Winter and di Matteo,will be sitting fairly deep. Conceicao and Leonardo are tucked in slightly to support the midfielders.

 

[2mufc0]

Good luck @idmanager and @Lord SInister

 

[idmanager]

Good luck @Lord SInister

 

[idmanager]

Most surprising thing on LS' lineup for me is Carnasciali being played as a CB.
He was a RB who did his fair bit in the attacking phase of the game on that flank but never was he a CB.
Don't think he ever played as a makeshift CB as well. At least from my search.

Please do correct me if I am wrong regarding the above point, but if I am not, he is going to simply get roasted here.

Below is a good game of his though as an attacking RB. Scored and assisted one.

 

[antohan]

Where are your tactics @idmanager? Your formation pic raises several questions left unanswered.

 

[harms]

Roberto Ayala : The defense is organized by one of the best CB's in the pool.

Ehm, is he? Failed to establish himself at Parma (loaned to Napoli, where he ended up relegated) and Milan as a starter. Considering the fact that there are Baresi, Nesta, Cannavaro, Bergomi, Ferrara etc. in the pool he definitely isn't.


Recoba as a left midfielder in a diamond also looks a bit odd. He was amazing for Inter (at least I rate him very highly), but he played as a part of the front two or, at the very least, as a 10.


Maldini looks wasted on the left — not LS's fault, but with no right winger there he is a bit pointless, I would've moved him centrally to take care of Crespo.
Also I would like to hear what LS has to say about Carnasciali

 

[idmanager]

Failed to establish himself at Parma (loaned to Napoli)

He never played a single game at Parma. There was a limit of 3 non-EU players. But go on.

Recoba as a left midfielder in a diamond also looks a bit odd.

He is not playing a central midfielder in a diamond. He is playing in an advanced role in the left and central areas with freedom to roam wherever he wants in those zones and join the attacks.
He has played a Number 10 and left winger quite well and this is a hybrid of the two roles. As I have mentioned in the write up, he has no defensive responsibilities.
He did have a wicked cross on him and with the strikers I have up front, he would be an asset both centrally and down the left.
His relative position to Davids and Rijkaard should make things clear.

Where are your tactics @idmanager? Your formation pic raises several questions left unanswered.

My tactics are part of the player profiles and the image. Anything left unanswered can be answered. Presume that is what the threads are for.

 

[harms]

He never played a single game at Parma. There was a limit of 3 non-EU players. But go on.

Okay, that's all you've got to say about the matter?

 

[idmanager]

Okay, that's all you've got to say about the matter?

Get your facts and premise right, don't edit your post midway after I have posted and then I can add more. Cheers.

Considering the fact that there are Baresi, Nesta, Cannavaro, Bergomi, Ferrara etc. in the pool he definitely isn't.

I didn't call him the best. I called him one of the best. It wasn't his Valencia peak, that I agree.
That Napoli team that got relegated couldn't score even if their lives depended on it and Ayala was surrounded with shit around him in defense.
In fact his performances are rated quite decently for Napoli which earned him a transfer to AC Milan.

 

[harms]

Get your facts and premise right, don't edit your post midway after I have posted and then I can add more. Cheers.

I edited it before you posted but you've already quoted the earlier version.

I didn't call him the best. I called him one of the best. It wasn't his Valencia peak, that I agree.
That Napoli team that got relegated couldn't score even if their lives depended on it and Ayala was surrounded with shit around him in defense.
In fact his performances are rated quite decently for Napoli which earned him a transfer to AC Milan

Well, "one of the best" is still a very big claim and he doesn't belong in the group of those I mentioned above.

Can you provide any of those ratings? Or is it based only on the fact of the transfer?

 

[harms]

Neither team inspires me with confidence but it's hard to look past that Rijkaard-Davids midfield base.

 

[Lord SInister]

well Carnasciali was a mistake. didn't research properly.

 

[idmanager]

Can you provide any of those ratings? Or is it based only on the fact of the transfer?

To be honest, I can't. I don't know where to look for ratings per season of 2 decade old seasons.
But the decline of Napoli is well documented from the season Maradona left and by the time Ayala arrived, almost all of the good lot left including the likes of Zola, Careca, Cannavaro, Ferrera, Crippa and many more.
In fact it led to their bankruptcy soon in less than a decade.

But Ayala was deemed to be a success at Napoli wherever I have read although I don't have match to match or season by season stats.
And yes, there were multiple top European teams interested in him on the back of him being a sucess at Napoli at lkeast individual performance wise and that eventually led him to Milan.

A few excerpts from the good old internet:

" Playing for the Partenopei for three years, Ayala soon became one of Europe’s best central defenders. But despite his good performances, his Napoli team was a mess. It was a slump that started right after Diego Maradona left in 1991.

With the passage of time, Napoli continued to regress despite the occasional Cup runs. Meanwhile, Ayala continued to impress and catch the eye of some of Europe’s top teams. In 1998, Napoli were finally relegated to Serie B after finishing bottom of the table, recording only two wins all season. As the club went down, Ayala jumped to AC Milan."


"As an Argentinian footballer who was succeeding, Ayala naturally moved to Italian football. His move wasn’t exactly straightforward, however. He was taken to Serie A by Parma, but the club had already met their quota for foreign nationals and couldn’t play him. Napoli then bought 50% of his playing rights in a co-ownership deal with Parma, allowing Ayala to play for them. And that’s Italian football.

Ayala was a success at Napoli and earned himself a transfer to AC Milan in 1998"

"S.S.C. Napoli crashed out of Serie A following a disastrous season. It only clinched 14 points out of 34 matches, despite having the services of several experienced Serie A players. Napoli went through four coaches over the course of the season, and hardly took a point in the second half of the season. Given the disastrous form of the team, Claudio Bellucci's ten goals were impressive, while thought top scorer Igor Protti was one of the largest disappointments of the entire series. The lack of defensive skills cost Napoli many points, and more than two goals were conceded on average. This was despite Roberto Ayala's brilliance, which earned him a transfer to A.C. Milan."

 

[idmanager]

well Carnasciali was a mistake. didn't research properly.

I don't mind you moving Torricelli to the centre and Carnasciali to the right since Torricelli did play a CB occasionally.
Or you could move Maldini to the centre.

Its still early in the game, so I wouldn't mind that. Cheers.

 

[idmanager]

Moving out for a couple of hours, will get back to the discussion. Cheers.

Looking for some interesting discussion on Recoba and how people think he would fare in this role. I have already explained above how I plan to use him. Quoted it below again.

He is not playing a central midfielder in a diamond. He is playing in an advanced role in the left and central areas with freedom to roam wherever he wants in those zones and join the attacks.
He has played a Number 10 and left winger quite well and this is a hybrid of the two roles. As I have mentioned in the write up, he has no defensive responsibilities.
He did have a wicked cross on him and with the strikers I have up front, he would be an asset both centrally and down the left.
His relative position to Davids and Rijkaard should make things clear.

 

[harms]

To be honest, I can't. I don't know where to look for ratings per season of 2 decade old seasons.

Okay, that's what I was looking for (the quotes), thanks. "One of the best" is still stretching it though.

There are some ratings on dbscalcio, and Ayala's Serie A seasons are not rated that highly (all below 6), but you have to access this information with care, of course.

 

[Oaencha]

Good luck to both of you.

It’s pretty clear that ID manager has the better overall team even though the defence is so-so and Ortega wasn’t at his best in Serie A.

Lord Sinister, what’s up with your formation? The spacing is all over the shop and it looks really messy.

 

[Lord SInister]

Good luck to both of you.

It’s pretty clear that ID manager has the better overall team even though the defence is so-so and Ortega wasn’t at his best in Serie A.

Lord Sinister, what’s up with your formation? Thr spacing is all over the shop and it looks really messy.

I have resubmitted to @2mufc0 , tbh I am at guilt for writing the write-up in hurry.

 

[Physiocrat]

@idmanager I'm rather confused about your midfield. Given the players it seems to bee suited to a 4222 or at least a lopsided 442 with Recoba wider than Ortega. Is this the intention? It does look diamond like on the teamsheet. Also why is Davids on the right and not the left?

 

[antohan]

Ehm, is he? Failed to establish himself at Parma (loaned to Napoli, where he ended up relegated) and Milan as a starter. Considering the fact that there are Baresi, Nesta, Cannavaro, Bergomi, Ferrara etc. in the pool he definitely isn't.

He isn't, not in that company, but he was very good for Napoli and started cementing his NT place around that time.

Napoli were a shambles though and after they sold Cruz and Boghossian in the same Summer it lost its spine going from conceding ~40 goals to ~70 goals and getting relegated.

It's a testament to his evident quality that Milan went for him, only to replace Capello with Zaccheroni who played 3-4-3 and therefore preferred Bruno N'Gotty (a RB really) in the RCB role.

It would be a bit cruel to judge players on the effects of shambolic management of their clubs, be it financial (Napoli) or transfer policies completely out of kilter with the coaches they kept hiring and firing (Milan, or read United post SAF).

Signori is at the very top tier here though. Ayala would need the rest of the defence to work well so he can solely focus on that.

 

[2mufc0]

I have resubmitted to @2mufc0 , tbh I am at guilt for writing the write-up in hurry.

Done.

 

[antohan]

My tactics are part of the player profiles and the image. Anything left unanswered can be answered. Presume that is what the threads are for.

I'd prefer to know how they are meant to function jointly rather than try read through the lines.

Ortega was most effective as a right forward or AM, not stuck centrally. Is that purely to draw him away from death by Maldini?

Recoba is too deep.

Don't get the logic of Davids on the right purely to cover Di Livio.

If Di Livio is constantly bombing forward, does that leave three at the back? I'm not sure I buy those three as a trio.

Who are your subs? It seems to me you would have been better off playing this differently.

 

[harms]

Pretty much what I expected to hear, @antohan, a good, even possibly the best CB on the pitch (Maldini excluded), but to say that he's one of the best in the draft — that's what got me going.

 

[antohan]

I have resubmitted to @2mufc0 , tbh I am at guilt for writing the write-up in hurry.

It should be Torricelli-Maldini-Carrera-Carnasciali if you ask me.

But then, it would be a bit odd to see all four change positions halfway through a game.

 

[idmanager]

Okay, that's what I was looking for (the quotes), thanks. "One of the best" is still stretching it though.

Perhaps true. In a draft with at least 32 CB's, I would have him in the top 8 here.

 

[idmanager]

It’s pretty clear that ID manager has the better overall team even though the defence is so-so

Taribo West is not what I would call a good member in my defense here, but the rest of it is very good and calling it so-so is doing them huge disservice.
Favalli was not picked early only because he doesn't offer much going forward and everyone else was looking for a LWB.
In pure defensive terms, there are not many in the pool better than him.

Di Livio is no nut defensively and has run flanks by himself in a balanced manner for Juve. We have already discussed quite a bit about Ayala.

If you replace West with a top stopper CB, that defense is quite ready to face any team.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Not sure about both teams. Neither Ortega/Recoba were known for their workrate. It feels more like a 4-2-2-2 with both AMs drifting wide. It's offset by the Rijkaard/Davids combo to a great extent though, but the balance is still off.

Sinister's defence esp the change is quite telling and I'm not sure of Torricelli as a fulltime CB.

Great attacking pairs from both teams.

I think idmanager's team will make the most use of whatever opportunities they get. But then Sinister has his tactica spot on. Sitting deep and narrow in middle and counter through wings is perfect for his team and will be a able counter to idm's AM's.

 

[idmanager]

@idmanager I'm rather confused about your midfield. Given the players it seems to bee suited to a 4222 or at least a lopsided 442 with Recoba wider than Ortega. Is this the intention? It does look diamond like on the teamsheet. Also why is Davids on the right and not the left?

A 4-2-2-2 is indeed a good fit too. Maybe even better against some opponents.

The bold part is more near to what I wanted to portray. It is a sort of a diamond but not in the pure sense of the term w.r.t formation.

Regarding Davids, to be very honest I don't think it matters much which side he played on.
When I started drafting the team, the idea was to play him on the left, but Recoba is someone I wanted to experiment in this role for both providing width and creativity through the centre.
Besides, Davids made sense in supporting Di Livio as well.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

West must be in contention for one of the worst hairstyles of all times!

 

[idmanager]

Ortega was most effective as a right forward or AM, not stuck centrally. Is that purely to draw him away from death by Maldini?

I did contemplate putting up a 4-2-2-2 at a point and watched quite a bit of Ortega in the last few days, but I felt Sinister's midfield was for the taking over here.
Rijkaard and Davids would have already won that battle, but a packed midfield would have made it impossible to counter.

The Maldini bit, no. I expected him to start in the centre and from a tactical point of view, that was a big blunder for LS IMO.
Probably Toricelli not playing much at LB might have forced it, but I would have taken the risk either ways considering how I went in hindsight with no RW.

 

[idmanager]

Recoba is too deep.

Okay, my inspiration for playing Recoba in this role was @Raees
I had a look before if someone did play him in that role and it turns out, he did in the Americas draft
Of course, people didn't buy it and rightly so because he didn't choose the right formation to do it.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-americas-draft-r1-onenil-vs-raees-7-5.421751/

But I did really like the general idea.
Is he really deep here? No. He just has a free role to roam about.
The mistake I didn't do and Raees did was not providing him the space to go about it and express himself.

Here, he has enough space all over the left side of the pitch. More importantly, he has Rijkaard and Davids behind for him to not worry about defensive duties.

Raees used the example of Silva which although I don't agree is a perfect match, player wise, but role wise, I think it makes good amount of sense. Especially w.r.t a younger David Silva

He might be a bit deeper than you like in the picture, but the love with symettry among people here is not lost on me and putting him a couple of inches below helps me show the space ahead he would have to exploit.

Went for it despite the bad reception for Raees because I honestly felt its a role he would do good justice.

 

[idmanager]

Don't get the logic of Davids on the right purely to cover Di Livio.

Its not purely to cover him. Davids is a good enough to keep his levels up on either side. From a balance point of view, he looked better on the right to me.

 

[idmanager]

Neither Ortega/Recoba were known for their workrate. It feels more like a 4-2-2-2 with both AMs drifting wide. It's offset by the Rijkaard/Davids combo to a great extent though, but the balance is still off.

Actually, Recoba and Ortega make perfect sense only because of Rijkaard and Davids. With those two around, Ortega and Recoba would have all the space and freedom to express themselves.
I don't think anyone would demand work rate out of them in that midfield.

 

[Raees]

Okay, my inspiration for playing Recoba in this role was @Raees
I had a look before if someone did play him in that role and it turns out, he did in the Americas draft
Of course, people didn't buy it and rightly so because he didn't choose the right formation to do it.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-americas-draft-r1-onenil-vs-raees-7-5.421751/

But I did really like the general idea.
Is he really deep here? No. He just has a free role to roam about.
The mistake I didn't do and Raees did was not providing him the space to go about it and express himself.

Here, he has enough space all over the left side of the pitch. More importantly, he has Rijkaard and Davids behind for him to not worry about defensive duties.

Raees used the example of Silva which although I don't agree is a perfect match, player wise, but role wise, I think it makes good amount of sense. Especially w.r.t a younger David Silva

He might be a bit deeper than you like in the picture, but the love with symettry among people here is not lost on me and putting him a couple of inches below helps me show the space ahead he would have to exploit.

Went for it despite the bad reception for Raees because I honestly felt its a role he would do good justice.

Agree with all your points, also you have more defensive cover for him whereas he was almost a left wing back in mine which didn't do him justice at all. Deservedly lost that match.

 

[idmanager]

Agree with all your points, also you have more defensive cover for him whereas he was almost a left wing back in mine which didn't do him justice at all. Deservedly lost that match.

Cheers mate.

 

[Moby]

Neither team looks very convincing tactically.

 

[idmanager]

Neither team looks very convincing tactically.

Have explained quite a bit about my team but saying LS' team tactically incorrect is plain and simple wrong.

He doesn't have the right personnel IMO to match my team man vs man but I think tactically and formation wise its spot on, especially the front 6.
(Except the Maldini bit most of it looks tactically correct to me)

 

[antohan]

Taribo West is not what I would call a good member in my defense here, but the rest of it is very good and so-so and doing huge disservice.
Favalli was not picked early only because he doesn't offer much going forward and everyone else was looking for a LWB.
In pure defensive terms, there are not many in the pool better than him.

Di Livio is no nut defensively and has run flanks by himself in a balanced manner for Juve. We have already discussed quite a bit about Ayala.

If you replace West with a top stopper CB, that defense is quite ready to face any team.

Agree with your assessment. Favalli didn't suit me, but I kept revisiting him as an LCB in a three option because he was very good indeed (basically, when not in a back four, swapping around how he and Sinisa played for Lazio). Di Livio is fine, your problem there is having Ayala as the covering RCB for a WB. It's precisely why Zaccheroni had him benched. Not a disaster, but not his strongest suit either. I would look at keeping Ayala in the other CB role and finding a different one to cover Di Livio.

But then, the other issue is your outball from the back. Bar Di Livio as a runner on the right, your ability to execute the transition from the back is suspect. That's where Davids on the left would also help. I suspect part of the reason for Ortega central and Recoba so deep was not getting accused of lacking creativity in the middle of the park. The team looks broken in halves, which is a shame when you have a very dynamic box-to-box player stuck on the right to help cover a wingback I rate but doesn't merit that sacrifice. I'll probably get lambasted, but I'm not entirely convinced Rijkaard>Davids in this context. Davids on the left would completely change your side's balance and ability to move up the pitch IMO.

You know I think Recoba is a highlights player, and however much I loved Ortega at River, he quickly nosedived with his off field habits. I would be very worried about the amount of responsibility you are assigning to two players which may not even show up. Yes, Recoba can get a hat-trick and destroy a title contender, like he did with Venezia against Fiorentina, but the odds on him not showing up are even, more so if you ask him to drop deeper and orchestrate everything. I have several years of watching my NT depending on his whim, it scars you for life.

That said, what little reaches Salas and Crespo I can see going to the back of the net at least a couple of times. I can also see those two (Crespo in particular) getting Recoba in the sort of positive/playful mood that can make him devastating. The defence they face was very ill-prepared for this game.

 

[antohan]

Neither team looks very convincing tactically.

Agreed. @Lord SInister got his back 5 all wrong. His forwards are a good pair though and the midfield will be fine, with tidy work in CM and aiming to bypass the double lock down the wings.

Hipster that I am, I think Conceição will have a good game here, doing exactly what he did so well for Lazio, while Leonardo is the huge question mark for me. I found him to be very one-paced at Milan and not working well as a winger but instead drifting in to play #10. I don't think this side needs that and Rijkaard would eat him alive. It is fortunate he has Signori, who can drop into that outside channel behind Di Livio's back and run at Ayala. Not by design, I suspect, but it could work very well so long as Leonardo doesn't try hog the ball too much.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Actually, Recoba and Ortega make perfect sense only because of Rijkaard and Davids. With those two around, Ortega and Recoba would have all the space and freedom to express themselves.
I don't think anyone would demand work rate out of them in that midfield.

My query was more related to your earlier reply...

but a packed midfield would have made it impossible to counter.

I get the dynamics behind your tactics, but feel that you lack to ability to stretch his defence. Sinister is playing a narrow sitting deep midfield and Maldini able to tuck in too. Having more bodies in same area will only increase the overlap and without someone to stretch and open the defence up, I don't think it'd be effecting in goal scoring despite you being able to enjoy a high possession %.

.......Salas.....Crespo.......
Recoba................Ortega
....Davids....Rijkaard.....

is how your team should look like imo. Kind of a narrow 4-4-2.
- Davids behind Recoba will have a more powerful effect in overloading Sinisters weak spot, his right defence.
- Rijkaard is better suited to drop back defensively against Leonardo and Signorini and support Di Livio.