Sheep draft - NoPace vs Edgar Allan Pillow
- Thread starter Balu
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I bet NoPace doesn't know what to do here, I agree it's EAP's fight that really makes you want to vote for him.. If EAP will win this, he'll be a real force for next rounds, so many GOATs!
I got it from the below quotes from OP.
I took it that Liedholm will mostly be operating from deep. Without a full roaming licence, he is restricted to a area and so more easier for Pantsil. I don't expect Pantsil to take him out of the game completely. Just enough nuisance factor to disrupt a smooth game.
Desailly would just drop Tshabalala's "detail".
I think you should seriously consider Joga's points. Sort of:
And my biggest advantage, is that I have a far better opportunity:score ratio. With such a high conversion ratio, I can outscore him.
I think it looks like that already, except I figured Rummennige would be more dangerous starting from the center-left rather than center-right, since he's then a greater threat to Beckham's crosses, but I always imagined Rummennigge in a free role, going wide to run at the CB's. He's got the platform to do so, with my banks of 4 behind him.Desailly would just drop Tshabalala's "detail".
I think you should seriously consider Joga's points. Sort of:
I do envision Liedholm having to drop a bit deeper than usual since EAP has built a narrow and frontloaded side. If his 2 strikers are up against my CB's and Muller is playing as a 10 marked by Yaya and Camacho is on Jairzinho and Angloma on Rocco, then it only seems natural for Liedholm (and Beckham and Tshabalala) to help out a bit.
EAP's attack is strong and numerous. Liedholm, Toure, Camacho and Angloma will not be constantly bombing forward, but they are smart, skilled and mobile enough to cause massive problems and deliver the telling pass when they do.
Exactly this. Liedholm and Becks would make terrific side mids with their industry and vision whilst being excellent in wider areas as well. Toure also less burdened defensively and will be afforded more freedom. Rummenigge with his powerful runs from the channels/out wide, causing chaos and helping to take the heat off Sanchez.Desailly would just drop Tshabalala's "detail".
I think you should seriously consider Joga's points. Sort of:
Basically makes his system more fluid and makes EAP's job of coping with it a lot harder, without particular defensive width and a meh halfback duo.
Anyway I'll leave it at that as I don't really want to influence the match esp when it's already so close. It's harsh on EAP but I was paired with NoPace for the injury round and had to work out how his team would have set up. So just gave my thoughts on that and I do feel for him as he has several underappreciated players.
This is much less dramatic than you make it out to be. Sanchez and Rummennige have better goal records than anyone on youer team but Gerd Muller and Beckham, Liedholm and Toure all have 16+ goal seasons. I have 5 serious goal threats and you have 4.
More importantly, I have a team that can get the ball to my strikers. Yours will have significantly less service.
And I still don't see how your team isn't losing possession and struggling to deal with the subsequent breaks and poor defensive transitions with the middle 4 of Rocco-Ancelotti-Pantsil-Jairzinho, of whom only player was comfortable on the ball (Jairzinho), one defensively (Ancelotti).
I've got a solid team in a coherent setup with a left-winger who isn't that good. Your side is begging to get hit on the break.
You just can't leave a professional footballer unmarked in the box, can you? Tshabalala has 12 goals for South Africa and some 1 in 3 seasons at club level.
You've done well to distract people from the fact the emperor has no feckin' clothes so far, I'll give you that.
Ancelotti is very underwhelming GIVEN THE CONTEXT, is what I said. And he fecking well is, no matter how many fairytales you manage to stuff down people's throats. A midfield duo of Ancelotti and Paintsil indeed. It's not underwhelming, it's utter shite - and there it is.
Close enough, at least. You could update the formation pic if you think it'd make a difference - never know. To me, though, it would be a pretty much cosmetic change. It's obvious that Beckham isn't a standard, line hugging winger and that Rummenigge does a fair bit of drifting - but hey, if what it takes is a very visual representation, then why not.
I don't think I can edit the post, but how about this:
HALFTIME CHANGES:
1. RUMMENNIGGE IS INSTRUCTED TO DRIFT AND LOOK FOR OPPORTUNITIES TO GET WIDE AND RUN AT EAP'S DEFENDERS.
2. BECKHAM IS INSTRUCTED TO TUCK IN A BIT SO AS TO SOMETIMES COVER FOR LIEDHOLM'S RUNS FORWARD.
Post the new formation here and I update the op. But don't forget the goalkeeper this time
.On the bolded bit above, even if Liedholm gets passes through Sanchez/KhR, they have the wall of Desailly-Baresi-Montero (plus shielding of Ancelotti) to get through. As Joga mentions, it is not an easy route by any means.
Thing thing is Becks, Yaya and Liedholm are all sitting deep. They won't have the same attacking threat as when they have a free role, a point which you conceded in the OP. My counter will be far more productive than yours.
Simply put Jairzinho will cause enough problems to Camacho that he would need the CB to pitch in and help.
Thank you. In real life, you can't just throw out a shitty fullback/midfield situation and succeed unless you sit deep enough that you're just defending in numbers and counting on your strikers to create on the break. United fans should know this better than most.
You can't play coherent, 2-way football with 3 strikers, 3 centerbacks and between them guys like Rocco, Ancelotti and Pantsil. Jairzinho can start from deeper than usual and help build attacks on the right, but he's not going to give a feck defensively, is he?
New Formation:
Hat tip to Joga and Antohan for the advice.
Hat tip to Joga and Antohan for the advice.
Difference being you already have Tshabalala on the left and you want to pull Montero wide. Beckham won't do that, Kalle will, expertly in fact. Then watch Beckham arrive on the edge of the box unmarked...
Him helping out a bit when not in possession doesn't mean you don't want him to slalom run through the middle when in possession. His only challenge is Pantsil FFS, you can't NOT exploit that.
Your beloved Chump-ito for starters
done.New Formation:
Hat tip to Joga and Antohan for the advice.
Tbh, I think the new formation helps me more. Highlights his defensive weakness more.
Camacho is a good defender, but he will be hard pressed to stop a prime Jairzinho. He would need KhForster for support and that would open spaces for Muller.
Similarly on the other side, a drifting Baggio and Muller will definitely combine with have joy. Yaya is not a defensive pivot to provide that kind of shielding.
Camacho is a good defender, but he will be hard pressed to stop a prime Jairzinho. He would need KhForster for support and that would open spaces for Muller.
Similarly on the other side, a drifting Baggio and Muller will definitely combine with have joy. Yaya is not a defensive pivot to provide that kind of shielding.
How many managers am I playing against here 
Your beloved Chump-ito for starters
If anyone ever wanted to understand the meaning of shellshocked, I would point them to this thread and the knee-jerk tactics in it. It is indeed a game to take the initiative and put your rival under immense pressure, not one to try fluke a goal ont he break. EAP will score once either way, arguably more if it's a soak and counter approach (not set up to do that effectively). The question is whether NoPace can muster a brace, which he won't just appealing to great passing from deep.
Rocco's new artistic name is Havejoy?
Edit my post out of it mate. Just deleted mine. Too harsh on EAP (and NoPace as wellIf anyone ever wanted to understand the meaning of shellshocked, I would point them to this thread and the knee-jerk tactics in it. It is indeed a game to take the initiative and put your rival under immense pressure, not one to try fluke a goal ont he break. EAP will score once either way, arguably more if it's a soak and counter approach (not set up to do that effectively). The question is whether NoPace can muster a brace, which he won't just appealing to great passing from deep.
) I don't want him to think I'm ganging up on him or anything but I just wanted to reply to Chester that it wasn't just merely the formation pic that was the issue.Why I didn't go in that direction:
1. When a team is as set up to be murdered on the counter as EAP's is (by having technically deficient players, players who won't track back/aren't clever defensively and a high-risk tactical system), you let them come forward a bit then press, you don't spread the game out.
2. Baggio and Jairzinho would be scary in a completely wide-open game.
3. Liedholm, Toure and Beckham are all good enough passers to create chances for the attackers without being on the edge of the box and my strikers were great at getting on the end of longer passes. I can generate lots of offense without sacrificing solidity.
1. When a team is as set up to be murdered on the counter as EAP's is (by having technically deficient players, players who won't track back/aren't clever defensively and a high-risk tactical system), you let them come forward a bit then press, you don't spread the game out.
2. Baggio and Jairzinho would be scary in a completely wide-open game.
3. Liedholm, Toure and Beckham are all good enough passers to create chances for the attackers without being on the edge of the box and my strikers were great at getting on the end of longer passes. I can generate lots of offense without sacrificing solidity.
I don't expect him to have a stranglehold on possession, but I would expect his midfielders to use the ball far better than your midfield. I'd expect possession to shift alot in this match.
Granted neither Liedholm or Toure are strict Makelele types, but they bring differing and complementary attributes to their partnership. Toure in that deeper role isn't really easy to characterise, but he certainly wasn't a pure DLP. He brought a tonne of physicality to the role and could break up play with the best of them. Nopace has said "Liedholm and Yaya will NOT have the full license to go forward that they did in their best goalscoring years, but are still decent secondary goal threats and very capable of scoring after Sanchez and Rummennigge cause hurried clearances or last-ditch tackles" and that's actually a very reasonable vision of how this would pan out. Pantsil not being out of his depth is far less reasonable to be honest. And Beckham doesn't need to dribble past Rocco, although he's hardly incapable of doing that. If every bang-average wide midfielder was able to dilute his threat llike your suggesting, he wouldn't have been one of the world's most productive players from his position at his peak.
If a weaker team decides to park the bus and just put players behind the ball, the strongest team might find it difficult to break them down. Eventually they will if they manage to keep consistent pressure, but it'll definitely not be a waltz. Here I have 5 men in defensive duties, 6 if you include the negative tactics of Rocco. By playing a sitting deep tactics he will not be able to exert continuous pressure needed to break down my defence. Agreed, it is not an overwhelming defence, but it still has enough GOAT defenders to make the numbers game work in my favour, at worst break even.
I would count Jairzinho vs Camacho to be in my favour too unless Forster is ready to assist him. I Muller and Baggio I have 2 players who are comfortable drifting in middle and flanks and I don't think both of them could be effectively covered by Toure. I definitely see my attack convert more opportunities here.
The problem is that your attack (Müller-Baggio-Müller) seems like they're adrift in a sea of their own. Jairzinho doesn't look like a proper part of either attack or midfield - and he is the only thing resembling a proper link here.
You have no direction or leadership in that midfield section. The best proper midfielder you sport is a natural side kick whose best football consisted of anonymously keeping it ticking as part of a team machinery.
You claim that your edge here is "strength through the middle" - which is a bit hard to see. It's more like "strength at the back and up front and a huge, feckin' hole in the middle".
It's a team with so serious flaws that it simply won't do to try and play the numbers game - or anything of the sort. You need a minimum of quality in order to win this match - and you don't have it. NoPace's team isn't perfect, Yaya and Liedholm ain't ideal given the nature of your front men - all very true. But it's not decisive. He doesn't have to field a perfect team in order to win this match.
You have no direction or leadership in that midfield section. The best proper midfielder you sport is a natural side kick whose best football consisted of anonymously keeping it ticking as part of a team machinery.
You claim that your edge here is "strength through the middle" - which is a bit hard to see. It's more like "strength at the back and up front and a huge, feckin' hole in the middle".
It's a team with so serious flaws that it simply won't do to try and play the numbers game - or anything of the sort. You need a minimum of quality in order to win this match - and you don't have it. NoPace's team isn't perfect, Yaya and Liedholm ain't ideal given the nature of your front men - all very true. But it's not decisive. He doesn't have to field a perfect team in order to win this match.
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Applaud Edgar's effort here and he's done far better with those sheep than I thought he would, but those two halfbacks are an awful pairing.
I'm still confused what Müller light, as antohan put it, is supposed to do here.
5 or 6 men in defensive roles doesn't remotely count as 'park the bus' style tactics though. At the very least that requires 8+ players generally stayng behind the ball except on counters, and an organised shape. What you have is a brilliant three man defence, a supremely talented but not particularly hard-working or deep-roaming attack, and an abyss between those two units, with fecking Pantsil given a key tactical role in making it work!
A big part of your argument has been Rocco and Pantsil denying space to Beckham and Liedholm respectively, and frankly it just doesn't work. If players of Beckham and Liedholm's calibre could be neutralised by the likes of Rocco and feckin Pantsil then, well, they wouldn't be players of that calibre.
You're doing a fantastic job by the way here mate, and given the scoreline that's why a bunch of us are ganging up on you
. You've become a bit of a master at selling some unlikely arguments!There's one 'fecking' missing.
I'm not sure what inspired that courtesy towards fecking Pantsil, but at the end of the day he's a much better footballer than I'll ever be so maybe I owe him one mention without cursing him.I think Edgar has done a great job hiding the sheep away from the scan voters, they really don't pop up to the eye as much as two Mullers, Baggio, Baresi, Desailly and co.
Teamsheets 101. Some teams just lose because they are completely careless in how they display things. If you have two sheep and aa gaping hole int he middle just make it all sufficiently compact, no big distances between the lines, etc. When I played 3-2-3-2 I spread my wingers wide to make space for everyone. Why? Because they were all bloody good players. Now, imagine the impact of stranding Rocco all the way out wide on the left or having Ancelotti-Pantsil with any sort of significant gap between them and the defence!
@antohan how would you have lined up with my side.
Hmm. Guess I need to come up with something new to throw at Edgar since the sheep apparently aren't enough.