Sheep Draft Q/F: Enigma/TRV vs Edgar

Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?


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Pat_Mustard

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Team Enigma/TRV:

Formation:- Zona Mista/4-2-3-1. Direct & Counter-Attacking.
Defensive line:- Normal.
Style:- Solid defensive line marshaled by Scirea, counter attack at every opportunity. Amancio and Nílton to provide width down the flanks and stretch the game so that it would allow space through the middle for the likes of Puskas, Zidane and Greaves to exploit.

GK:- Michel Preud'homme - One of the best and complete goalkeepers in the 80's and early 90's. Phenomenal reflexes and he was great organizer at the back and always dependable in collecting crosses and in the air.

Tucked-in RB:- Claudio Gentile - The Italian defender wore his reputation as a tough, uncompromising defender, or as the more clickbait YouTube video titles would have you believe, ‘The Hardest Man in Soccer’, as a badge of honour. One of the best, if not the best man-markers in the history of the game. Very few could boast of marking Diego Maradona and Zico out of the game like Gentile did. It is impossible not to admire the tenacity and discipline with which he played the game, as well as his innate ability to consistently play on the very precipice of what was acceptable over 90 minutes. The contrasting defensive pairing with Scirea in terms of style, which expertly combined silk and steel together with the experienced Zoff as the last line of defence, saw Juventus claim the 1974/75 title. Gentile played 29 of 30 league games and was integral to a Bianconeri side which only conceded three goals at home in the league all season.

Libero:- Gaetano Scirea -
One of the greatest defenders to have graced the game of football. Marshaled the defense two of the most iconic sides of all time in 1980s Italy NT & 1980s Juventus. A leader amongst men, Scirea was a master at organizing the defense the back yet at the same time, initiate plenty of swift attacks from the back and often step up in the midfield when needed in a true libero role at his peak.

LCB:- Karlheinz Förster - One of the most brilliant, yet often overlooked defenders in German football's rich history is Karlheinz Förster. Although his time came after the glory years of the 1970s, he was perhaps Germany's most important defender in the early 1980s. An outstanding marker who could negate any striker out of the game.

LWB:- Nílton Santos - One of the greatest left backs in the history of the game. Blessed with immaculate technique, engine and passing, Nílton Santos was the true pioneer of the attacking full-backs, which has become such a common theme in modern era. But at the same time, he was a brilliant defender as well.

DM:- Dave Mackay - George Best called him “the hardest man I have ever played against – and certainly the bravest”; while Mackay’s former team-mate Jimmy Greaves described him as “the most complete professional footballer I’ve ever known. He was a genuinely hard bastard and a truly gifted footballer, a combination which is so rare.” Although standing only 5ft 8in, the sturdily built Mackay’s presence was such that he seemed taller. Uncompromising in the tackle, he was driven by an intense desire to win, and was unimpressed by attempts at intimidation.

Sir Alex Ferguson:- "I know he was the bravest man in the world but he was a fantastic footballer, he was skillful. His personality, his intensity, his desire to win could make any team."

CM/Box-Box:- Yaya Toure -
An absolute midfield dynamo, Yaya Touré was a midfield powerhouse. Built like a tank but moved so swiftly, it was nearly impossible to stop Yaya once he made up his mind to attack. Players bounced off him whenever he made driving runs from the midfield into the opposition box. Such was his strength and power. At his peak, he was world class and one of the greatest midfielders in the Premiership era. However, he made a name for himself in world football as a defensive holding midfielder with Barcelona where he played an integral part in Pep Guardiola's first season in charge when they won the treble. He was the holding midfielder who allowed the license to Xavi and Iniesta to do what they do best. Fast forward four years, in the first season under Manuel Pellegrini, Yaya evolved into a marauding box-box attacking midfielder who created havoc in the final third. He scored 20 Premier League goals and registered 9 assists for his teammates in 35 outings. One of the most complete midfielders of modern era, Yaya Touré was the perfect definition of the term "beast".



RW:- Amancio Amaro - Spain's best ever Right Winger, Amancio Amaro played alongside Francisco Gento for nine years at Real Madrid and seven years for Spain. Despite being a winger, Amaro won the Pichichi Trophy as Spanish footballs top scorer twice, and scored a total of 173 goals in 344 games for Real Madrid and 11 goals from 42 caps for Spain. Amancio was the best player for Spain when they won the Euros in 1964 and his exploits with Spain and Real Madrid helped him finish 3rd in Ballon d'Or voting that year.

AMC:- Zinedine Zidane -
A Rolls-Royce of a midfielder, Zinedine Zidane is one of the greatest players to have stepped foot on a football pitch. A true big-game player who thrived when the stakes were higher. Scorer of important goals, Zidane was blessed with immaculate technique, fantastic vision and range of passing.

SS:- Ferenc Puskás - The Galloping Major, is one of the greatest footballers to have graced the game. He was the captain of the legendary Mighty Magyars in the fifties and led them to winning a gold medal in the 1952 Olympics and a silver medal in 1954 World Cup. Even though he was out injured for few games, he still ended the 1954 World Cup with the Golden Ball as well as Bronze Boot. Till date, he remains the only footballer to have scored more than one hat-trick in the European Cup/UEFA Champions League Final, a feat he had achieved with Real Madrid when he was past his peak. Not only was he a prolific goalscorer but also a brilliant playmaker as well. This quote by Jeno Buzanszky, The Mighty Magyars' right back, gives a brief idea about the genius of Ferenc Puskás:- "If a good player has the ball, he should have the vision to spot three options. Puskás always saw at least five."

ST:- Jimmy Greaves - Greaves went on to become one of the greatest goal scorers ever in the history of the English game. His incredible ability to find the net saw him make a name for himself, not just on these shores, but across Europe too. The ultimate goal-scoring machine, still remains the highest scorer in the history of English top-flight football and has also netted more hat-tricks for England than anyone else. So deft was the forward when rounding defenders and beating goalkeepers, that his playing style was once described as the football equivalent of closing the door on a Rolls Royce. By his own admission, Greaves didn’t spend lots of time practicing his finishing, but instead relied on his sheer pace, incredible dribbling ability and a natural instinct when it came to finding the net.

Defence:- Marshaled by Gaetano Scirea at his peak, alongside his partner in crime in Claudio Gentile we have a proven fit, especially when it comes to pairing him with one of the best stoppers ever in Förster. Nilton Santos is the attacking left-back - commanding the left flank and providing width in attack as well as being the creative outlet from the left wing.

Midfield:- Mackay and Yaya form a double-pivot in the midfield. Mackay would be the defensive holding midfielder. A hard tackler but had really good defensive nous and passing ability. Alongside Mackay, we have an all-action packed, perfect box-box midfielder in Yaya who would complement Mackay really well. Both would provide the base for our attacking quartet to decide the game. Ahead of them, we have Zidane, one of the finest playmakers of all time to dictate the game for us and pull the strings. With Zidane as the No 10, we have a midfielder who can link-up with the attack and provide the necessary service as well. Amancio brings width on the right flank with his pace and creativity and also another goalscoring threat in attack considering his goalscoring output during his peak.

Attack:- We possess the best attack in the draft. A front-two of Greaves - Puskás is as good as it gets. Two outstanding goalscorers but could score goals in variety of ways. Greaves would run the channels and with his pace and finishing ability would be a constant threat playing on the shoulders of the last defender. Puskás on the other hand was an all-around forward who not only scored goals for fun but also created a shit load of chances for others as well. Playing on the left channel in a slightly left forwardish role, Puskás would be the perfect foil for Greaves.

vs Edgar Allan Pillow:- Two very similar formations and teams and most likely the personnel would decide the game, especially in the defense. We have a much superior defense, and more importantly players in their ideal roles in the zona mista formation. EAP lacks a sweeper like a Scirea or Baresi or Beckenbauer to maximize the complete potential of a zona-mista set-up. Cannavaro and Maldini are good but none of them can play that Scirea role. We also undoubtedly have a much better keeper in Preud'homme, compared to Weidenfeller. Midfield its close but I feel our central-midfield is much more balanced. Coming to attack, we have the superior attack especially with that trident of Zidane - Puskás - Greaves.



vs

Team Edgar:



The goal is manned by Roman Weidenfeller, Dortmund's finest ever goalkeeper. A key member of Klopp's freewheeling, high-pressing side around the turn of the decade and crucial in the double-winning 2011/12 campaign, he combined excellent shot-stopping with a preternatural domination of his penalty area. With that defence in front of him, he is sure to have a "grandoise spiel gespielt".

Ahead of Roman stands the GOAT pair of Centre Backs in Paolo Maldini & Fabio Cannavaro. No introduction needed for either of them. One of the strongest CB pairs in this draft and a rock solid base for the team.

Leo Junior
joins the team as the new left back. A classy versatile player who can play full back, wing back and Defensive Midfielder comfortably. In 1985 Platini got the Ballon d'Or and top scorer in Serie A for a third consecutive year, yet it was Leo Junior awarded with Serie A Best Player. He is also the joint record holder for Bolas de Prata in Brazil, along with none other than Zico. though he prefers to drift in and use his passing skills as a additional playmaker, he is also comfortable providing overlapping width when necessary. Tarcisio Burgnich, one of Italy's best defenders compeltes the back line. An old fashioned no nonsense defender. Excellent man-marker and a hard tackler, who was difficult to beat in one on one situations. Crucial part of famed Herrera's Grade Inter team.

Claude Makelele joins the team to provide defensive steel. A all action, hard working midfielder who specializes in snuffing out attacks and shielding the defence. He's partnered by Marcos Senna another defensive midfield maestro whose impressive passing range and outstanding shooting ability will help bringing the ball out of the defence quickly. Between these two they form a impregnable wall in front of my GOAT CBs.

Attack is modeled around the Juventus side that Michel Platini excelled in. He has two hard working midfielders behind him doing the dirty work and freeing him up to run the game. Beppe Signori is super quick and lethal left sided forward who is adept at scoring himself or stretching the defence opening them up for Platini's goals. Jairzinho one of the best RWs of all time mans the flank and the attack is spearheaded by none other than United own Denis Law. It is a lethal and lightning fast attack that will terrorize any defence with wide spectrum of attacking possibilities.

Why I'll win:

1. Better attack: Puskas is clearly the star of Enigma's team, but Law, Platini and Jairzinho are all better than their counterparts in Enigma's team. Also Puskas is playing in a new role without wingers he usually prefers (Czibor/Gento).

2. Makelele on Zidane: There are few peers to Makelele against traditional #10s like Zidane. It will be an even matchup but having Makelele there would definitely prevent Zidane from influencing the game too much. With a astute partner in Senna, they will make sure creativity from midfield is snuffed out at the earliest limiting my opponent greatly.

3. Platini: Platini is faced by two all action midfielders, but lack of a dedicated DM would be crucial point in my favour. Platini will find it possible to stamp his authority in this game that Zidane could not.
 

harms

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The contrasting defensive pairing with Scirea in terms of style, which expertly combined silk and steel together with the experienced Zoff as the last line of defence, saw Juventus claim the 1974/75 title. Gentile played 29 of 30 league games and was integral to a Bianconeri side which only conceded three goals at home in the league all season.
I think that he played more on the left that season with Cuccu on the right. Just saying — I'm not questioning his fit as a tucked in right back, obviously, but this is hardly a relevant season.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Good team and all the best @Enigma_87

Two very similar formations and teams and most likely the personnel would decide the game, especially in the defense. We have a much superior defense, and more importantly players in their ideal roles in the zona mista formation. EAP lacks a sweeper like a Scirea or Baresi or Beckenbauer to maximize the complete potential of a zona-mista set-up. Cannavaro and Maldini are good but none of them can play that Scirea role. We also undoubtedly have a much better keeper in Preud'homme, compared to Weidenfeller. Midfield its close but I feel our central-midfield is much more balanced. Coming to attack, we have the superior attack especially with that trident of Zidane - Puskás - Greaves.
Have to disagree with pretty much everything.

Both Maldini and Cannavaro are good on the ball and well rounded CB's and that works well in place of classic sweeper/stopper formation. Both are tactically intelligent, comfortable drifting out to respective flanks, Quick, agile and dominant on the ground and in the air. They are complete CBs and I doubt not having a classic sweeper makes any kind of impact herein.

As to attack, excepting Puskas....Law, Platini, Jairzinho are clearly better than their counterparts in your team. And though Puskas may be a better overall player, Signori fits the tactics and scheme much better than Puskas. My attack is definitely superior. And Platini > Zidane ;)

Puskas played with AdS, but everyone knew who the boss was. It was a functional partnership, but not really peak Magyar level Puskas. Same would happen here on a much worse scale as Zidane is not really as tactically mobile as AdS. Signori will be a perfect foil (similar to Boniek role) who can work well in tandem with Platini moving in to score or stepping out to open spaces for each other.

As to defensive midfield, Makelele is the best player on the pitch. He's the perfect opponent to negate a #10 like Zidane. Your team lacks such a player who can put a handle on Platini. Senna is competent enough to handle whenever Yaya breaks forward and spring open the counter with a quick pass.
 
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Enigma_87

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I think that he played more on the left that season with Cuccu on the right. Just saying — I'm not questioning his fit as a tucked in right back, obviously, but this is hardly a relevant season.
Yeah. Gentile was at his peak in the exact same position either tucked in RB or CB on the right side - both for the national team and Juve - after Cuccu waned or was moved in midfield on occassion. We wanted to highlight his earlier form even before his peak and that he often gets underrated in grand scheme of things considering how vital he was for club and national teams.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Some earlier quests on Signori from one of his biggest fans in this forum :p

11. Giuseppe “Beppe” Signori - It was a time when the Italian League was peerless and was the best championship in terms of quality. Signori played against world class defenders and legends of the game such as Baresi, Maldini, Cafu, Cannavaro, Costacurta, etc, etc..(Luckily he won’t have to play against Cannavaro here as well, he he). Beppe was beating offside traps before Fillipo Inzaghi had grown hairs on his chest and was the consummate striker.

Despite his lack of medals to show for it, Signori was a wonderful striker. He was Serie A top scorer in three seasons and Coppa Italia top scorer twice. In 1993, he won the Guerin d’Oro as the player in Serie A with the highest average rating, beating off the likes of Roberto Baggio, Paolo Di Canio, Franco Baresi, Marco van Basten and other such legends. He was fast, sharp, excellent dribbler of the ball, capable of scoring anywhere in and off the box, added with the fact that he was one of the best free kick takers in the 90’s. He was loved at every team he played. In 1995 rumours surfaced that he was to be sold by Lazio to Parma - the news caused rioting among the Biancocelesti fans, marching to Via Venato and pressuring management to halt the transfer. President Sergio Cragnotti eventually accepted the pleas to keep Signori in the team, breaking the multi-million-pound deal.
Signori as well is known to find space and also unlock tight defences.
 

Enigma_87

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@Edgar Allan Pillow have to underline the gulf of quality in keepers - first and foremost.

Preud'homme has undoubtedly been one of the best keepers of the 80's and early 90's.

A world-class, elegant, efficient, and consistent goalkeeper, regarded as one of the greatest goalkeepers of all time, Preud'homme was mainly known for his excellent shot-stopping abilities, quick reflexes, agility, strength, tenacity, handling and his ability to come off his line to collect crosses, as well as his tendency to produce spectacular and decisive saves.
Preudhomme was the best keeper in the world in 94 winning a plethora of awards:

He was also second in 1989, 1990 behind Zenga in IFFHS' World's Best Goalkeeper of the Year and 4th in 1995, competing with the likes of Dasayev, Pfaff, Schmeichel and the likes.

On the other hand Weidenfeller has always been a bit of calamity at the goal and has made some serious mistakes along with not really been one of the outstanding keepers even in Germany during his time:
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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@Edgar Allan Pillow have to underline the gulf of quality in keepers - first and foremost.
Since you have nothing else to highlight, eh? :lol: Really moot point behind that defensive line. Agree that Preud'homme is a better kepper, but then Weidenfeller's peak was short but pretty stellar. CL and Don Balon winner to boot.

Yeah. Gentile was at his peak in the exact same position either tucked in RB or CB on the right side - both for the national team and Juve - after Cuccu waned or was moved in midfield on occassion. We wanted to highlight his earlier form even before his peak and that he often gets underrated in grand scheme of things considering how vital he was for club and national teams.
Gentile is good fit there. No question about that.

But in this match when you look at whom they are facing a classic LB like Nilton is much easier to handle for Burgnich than a free for all drifting LB like Junior who can popup anywhere and run the game with his passing and playmaking abilities. He's the wildcard whom I believe your team will find it difficult to handle.
 
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Enigma_87

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Good team and all the best @Enigma_87

Have to disagree with pretty much everything.
Cheers you too mate, probably we will disagree on many points though :p

Both Maldini and Cannavaro are good on the ball and well rounded CB's and that works well in place of classic sweeper/stopper formation. Both are tactically intelligent, comfortable drifting out to respective flanks, Quick, agile and dominant on the ground and in the air. They are complete CBs and I doubt not having a classic sweeper makes any kind of impact herein.
They don't really surge forward from the CB position though, hence not really perfect defensive line for a zona mista. Add to that a playmaking full back in Junior and your defence is far from optimal from the gameplan presented here.

As to attack, excepting Puskas....Law, Platini, Jairzinho are clearly better than their counterparts in your team. And though Puskas may be a better overall player, Signori fits the tactics and scheme much better than Puskas. My attack is definitely superior. And Platini > Zidane, esp in a Zona Mista ;)
Puskas is by far the best attacker on the pitch. He's a GOAT striker and doubt anyone can argue about that. As for Law and Greaves and Zidane and Platini I think it's really tough to separate in terms of individual quality. Greaves is up there with Law - he's one of the greatest goalscorers in Britain and has made the Ballon D'or lists on numerous occasions, however never had the chance to star in EC due to playing for lesser team in Spurs.

Puskas played with AdS, but everyone knew who the boss was. It was a functional partnership, but not really peak Magyar level Puskas. Same would happen here on a much worse scale as Zidane is not really as tactically mobile as AdS. Signori will be a perfect foil (similar to Boniek role) who can work well in tandem with Platini moving in to score or stepping out to open spaces for each other.
On the contrary Signori was never a fan of playing as a LWF and that was one of the reasons for his row with the manager in 94'. Here he's in a bit of too congested forward line which doesn't really get the best out of your players. Jairzinho is more of a wing forward than orthodox winger and has enjoyed playing alongside overlapping full back in Carlos Alberto - here he has a tucked in RB who won't provide much going forward. Signori has played in a 4-4-2 at his best not 4-2-3-1 shunted on the left. Platini played alongside Bettega and Boniek - two very industrious forwards, whilst here he has Signori and Jairzinho. On top of that you have 2 holders and no true box to box player like Tardelli who will bring the running and physical presense in midfield.

As to defensive midfield, Makelele is the best player on the pitch. He's the perfect opponent to negate a #10 like Zidane. Your team lacks such a player who can put a handle on Platini. Senna is competent enough to handle whenever Yaya breaks forward and spring open the counter with a quick pass.

I believe both tactically and man-to-man, I have a better team and better fit to the Zona Mista.
You don't have very functional midfield IMO - both Senna and Makelele are at their best as holders - you don't need one of them in this set up. Not really optimal base for Platini here and both are a bit slow on the mark.
 

Enigma_87

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Since you have nothing else to highlight, eh? :lol: Really moot point behind that defensive line. Agree that Preud'homme is a better kepper, but then Weidenfeller's peak was short but pretty stellar. CL and WC winner to boot.
:lol:

He was runner up at the CL and has 4 apps for the NT - neither at the WC.

It isn't really a moot point. The gulf in quality is really big between the keepers. Easily deciding factor on its own ;)

Gentile is good fit there. No question about that.

But in this match when you look at whom they are facing a classic LB like Nilton is much easier to handle for Burgnich than a free for all drifting LB like Junior who can popup anywhere and run the game with his passing and playmaking abilities. He's the wildcard whom I believe your team will find it difficult to handle.
Junior is the playmaking type of LB. He is really a poor fit for zona mista. There isn't enough presence on the left at the moment and if you shunt Signori to the left he won't really like that role or would it be his best use.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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One team got the left back right, one team got it wrong.

Other than that, quite even Stevens. Jairzinho a better attacker on the right, but Scirea an extra body in midfield unlike Cannavaro, both are advantages as well.

Glaring difference only the LB though. Both teams beg for someone like Nilton and not like Junior.
 

Enigma_87

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Since you have nothing else to highlight, eh? :lol:

as for replying on this one I do feel we have much better interpretation to the zona mista here.

If we dissect each line:

Defence - you have a solid one and a tucked in RB who will be a good fit for that role. However we have Scirea who is really the cornerstone of that formation and is the libero type who will make those midfield runs to really highlight the formation. Neither Cannavaro or Maldini will do that. It's not about being good on the ball (either of them are inferior to Scirea in that sense).

We have two brilliant markers in Forster and Gentile who excelled in the roles and Gentile/Scirea is a proven fit in this exact formation. Maldini is playing in his second best position here (not that he's a poor CB of course) but no doubt stylistically we have much better set up.

On top of that Nilton is the much better fit to Facchetti - both were the first overlapping full backs in their time and capable of manning their flanks.

Junior again is a bit of a ill fit in a zona mista. He's a playmaking full back who later excelled as a midfielder and followed the career path of Breitner rather than someone who would expect to make constant runs up and down the flank.

Midfield - Senna and Makelele aren't really an optimal duo for me. Neither is dynamic enough to replicated Tardelli's engine, nor will compliment Platini well in this set up. With Yaya and Mackay we have far more balanced double pivot who would be able to control the midfield and generally dovetail well with Zidane.

Attack - Platini played with very industrious players around him or at his best for France he only had 2 (again one very industrious one in Six) forwards next to him. Here he has 3 - Law, Signori and Jairzinho - it's a bit of a congested space to work in.

On the other hand we have Puskas who excelled in 5 man attacks and also as you mentioned has proven that he can function with a dominant playmaker (AdS) and also pure goalscorer in Kocsis.

Amaro is someone he again has played with and the type of winger who can consistently stretch the defence on the right.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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As for Law and Greaves and Zidane and Platini I think it's really tough to separate in terms of individual quality. Greaves is up there with Law - he's one of the greatest goalscorers in Britain and has made the Ballon D'or lists on numerous occasions, however never had the chance to star in EC due to playing for lesser team in Spurs
Sorry, no offence to Greaves or Zidane, but I know who I'd pick everytime. Both Law and Platini are better, simple as.

On the contrary Signori was never a fan of playing as a LWF and that was one of the reasons for his row with the manager in 94'. Here he's in a bit of too congested forward line which doesn't really get the best out of your players. Jairzinho is more of a wing forward than orthodox winger and has enjoyed playing alongside overlapping full back in Carlos Alberto - here he has a tucked in RB who won't provide much going forward. Signori has played in a 4-4-2 at his best not 4-2-3-1 shunted on the left. Platini played alongside Bettega and Boniek - two very industrious forwards, whilst here he has Signori and Jairzinho. On top of that you have 2 holders and no true box to box player like Tardelli who will bring the running and physical presense in midfield.
He came into his own as a Left striker in Zeman's 4-3-3. Moving him into a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2 would be a gross misuse, but as a tucked in left striker, it really is the same as his peak position.

You don't have very functional midfield IMO - both Senna and Makelele are at their best as holders - you don't need one of them in this set up. Not really optimal base for Platini here and both are a bit slow on the mark.
Senna comes from the Spanish camp, which is all about recycling the ball and playing flowing football. He certainly was the deepest player, but lumping him as a pure holder same as Makelele is not really a true description of his capabilities.
 

Enigma_87

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One team got the left back right, one team got it wrong.

Other than that, quite even Stevens. Jairzinho a better attacker on the right, but Scirea an extra body in midfield unlike Cannavaro, both are advantages as well.

Glaring difference only the LB though. Both teams beg for someone like Nilton and not like Junior.
Cheers mate. I know very few care about goalkeepers but IMO that's a clear advantage there, especially since United fans as a whole witness these years with De Gea being our best player and keeping us in games on numerous occasions.

Alan Kennedy would probably be the better fit for LB given Edgar's roster.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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as for replying on this one I do feel we have much better interpretation to the zona mista here.
That really means nothing.
followed the career path of Breitner rather than someone who would expect to make constant runs up and down the flank.
Good thing he's not expected to do that, eh? I doubt with him moving infield and linking with Platini, you really have no DMs who can cover this scenario.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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One team got the left back right, one team got it wrong.

Other than that, quite even Stevens. Jairzinho a better attacker on the right, but Scirea an extra body in midfield unlike Cannavaro, both are advantages as well.

Glaring difference only the LB though. Both teams beg for someone like Nilton and not like Junior.
Read my OP, I say it resembles a Zona Mista that Platini excelled in, but not really a exact recreation. A classic FB like Nilton would play right into Gentie's hands, but a free role LB like Junior would be far more difficult to handle. His movement and ability drift out or tuck in would pretty much be un-trackable and cause crucial overlaps that his team just cannot handle.

And Platini > Zidane, Law > Greaves, Makelele > Mackay/Toure... It may be slim margin, but I do have superior quality all over.
 

Enigma_87

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Sorry, no offence to Greaves or Zidane, but I know who I'd pick everytime. Both Law and Platini are better, simple as.
It's an argument that IMO has been done multiple times but many have Zidane as the better player. Frankly it's down to preference on both. I've seen Greaves rated at least as highly as Law but either way Puskas is the best by far and the difference between the other is marginal at best, which would tilt it in our favor.

He came into his own as a Left striker in Zeman's 4-3-3. Moving him into a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2 would be a gross misuse, but as a tucked in left striker, it really is the same as his peak position.
With Zeman he was much more central and closer to goal:

Here are some quotes:

Zeman saw in Signori something that previous managers had not; his dangerousness in front of goal. He recognised that the diminutive forward possessed a predatory instinct in the box that had not been utilised by other managers. At his previous clubs, Signori had been limited to the left wing by coaches who were keen to use his pace and crossing ability. As a result, Signori had scored only 17 goals in 115 games before Zeman signed him in 1989.

As a striker in Zeman’s 4-3-3 system, Signori flourished. He bagged 46 goals in 100 appearances for the club, earning promotion to the top flight for the first time in 1991. Once he broke onto Italian football’s primary stage, Signori began getting some real attention.
In the early to mid-1990s, in addition to Signori, Italy had an abundance of forwards, including Roberto Baggio, Zola, Vialli, Casiraghi, Daniele Massaro and Mancini. As a result, and much to Signori’s unhappiness, the Azzurri coach, Arrigo Sacchi, preferred to make use of Signori’s versatility by playing him in a left midfield role rather than through the middle, enabling him to accommodate some of other attacking options that the team had available at the time.

Senna comes from the Spanish camp, which is all about recycling the ball and playing flowing football. He certainly was the deepest player, but lumping him as a pure holder same as Makelele is not really a true description of his capabilities.
that doesn't really mean much though. Senna was usually the furthest midfielder on the pitch in relation to the goal and Makelele was the same. On top of that you have Junior tucking in from the side. It really isn't an optimal midfield by any means.
 

Enigma_87

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Read my OP, I say it resembles a Zona Mista that Platini excelled in, but not really a exact recreation. A classic FB like Nilton would play right into Gentie's hands, but a free role LB like Junior would be far more difficult to handle. His movement and ability drift out or tuck in would pretty much be un-trackable and cause crucial overlaps that his team just cannot handle.

And Platini > Zidane, Law > Greaves, Makelele > Mackay/Toure... It may be slim margin, but I do have superior quality all over.

Either way it isn't really functional mate. Especially the left flank and midfield. The attack doesn't really work like that either.

Platini wasn't the type of 4 man attacks with 3 other forwards/strikers - far from it. Same can be said on the right side with Jairzinho being the only one to stretch the play. Jairzinho enjoyed having Carlos Alberto constantly overlapping which enabled him to cut in and score goals like in that 70 WC. Here he has to be more of a winger that would be closer to the touchline.
 

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With Zeman he was much more central and closer to goal:

Here are some quotes:
It's exactly the role he's playing...a hybrid, IF/SS role in left...similar to wide forward in a 4-3-3. He's not a left winger.

Either way it isn't really functional mate. Especially the left flank and midfield. The attack doesn't really work like that either.

Platini wasn't the type of 4 man attacks with 3 other forwards/strikers - far from it.
Is that a throwaway comment or do you have insights on why it's not functional?

Platini's peak was more in same...with Boniek on left, Rossi ahead and Bettega on right. Law and Jairzinho are upgrades and Signori adds more goals than Boniek too.
 

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Hmm, I think I prefer Pillow's side. I feel the midfield is stronger in all three positions but perhaps more important, I'm having a hard time seeing Toure and especially Amancio in a zona mista. Toure doesn't seem disciplined enough. Amancio just seems like the wrong type of player for that industrious right midfield/forward hybrid role. Conti and Briaschi were different types of players than an old school outside right like Amancio.
 

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It's exactly the role he's playing...a hybrid, IF/SS role in left...similar to wide forward in a 4-3-3. He's not a left winger.
4-2-3-1 is quite different from 4-3-3 in terms of that attacking unit. It's really not the same.

Is that a throwaway comment or do you have insights on why it's not functional?

Platini's peak was more in same...with Boniek on left, Rossi ahead and Bettega on right. Law and Jairzinho are upgrades and Signori adds more goals than Boniek too.
Check the previous comments. I've tried to explain it in details. Signori and Jairzino are far from the same players like Bettega and Boniek.
 

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Hmm, I think I prefer Pillow's side. I feel the midfield is stronger in all three positions but perhaps more important, I'm having a hard time seeing Toure and especially Amancio in a zona mista. Toure doesn't seem disciplined enough. Amancio just seems like the wrong type of player for that industrious right midfield/forward hybrid role. Conti and Briaschi were different types of players than an old school outside right like Amancio.
You are missing the keepers as well though. Still very important position in the starting 11, especially when there is gulf in quality :)

Jairzinho, Junior and Senna/Makelele are far from perfect in that formation mate. Amancio's prime function is to stretch the play on the right. He isn't as industrious as the ones mentioned, but considering he has a playmaking full back who will tuck in and Signori who will also tuck in I think we won't need a Conti type considering who we face and the game mechanics.

Toure was pretty good for Barca in a much restricted role as a DM - he won two La Liga's and one CL (unlike Weidenfeller he actually played for his side :) ). He won some sort of a lazy label when he grew older but at his peak he was pretty phenomenal in Prem.
 

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precisely why I'm not playing a 4-2-3-1. Are you claiming Signori can't play a Boniek role?



And Puskas and Amancio are? :rolleyes:
If you are playing zona mista you got the wrong full back there. If it isn't zona mista it's much closer to 4-2-3-1 as you have 2 strikers, 1 WF and a #10 on the pitch.

Signori and Boniek are quite different type of players.

Amancio's main role is in attack as highlighted in my last posts. We are not facing a traditional LB/LW combo as both of your wide options on the left will most likely tuck in and in Signori's case you are clearly implying that.

Amancio would be excellent in that role, especially considering he has Gentile covering in defence.
 

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Steve McManaman said:
"the most important and yet least appreciated midfielder at Real"
Fernando Hierro said:
"he's been the best player in the team for years but people just don't notice him".
Zinedine Zidane on sale of Makelele said:
"Why put another layer of gold paint on the Bentley when you are losing the entire engine?"
A colossus in defensive midfield. A genius at harassing #10 and protecting the defence. He's harass Zidane all through and a better shield cannnot be found. Zidane will have a torrid time and will not be as influential as his normal.

And that is the game winning difference.
 

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Elephant in the room is Makelele on Zidane. Makelele will be one solid rock that will break most of your attacks.

On flip side, Platini will have a relatively free reign to dictate play.
Elephant in the room is Weidenfeller who might as well be a sheep in all time sense.

We're not man marking players as you are implying but defending zonally.

Makelele won't be able to fend off Zidane on his own. He wasn't the hound that would chase him all over the pitch. Why Makelele excelled was his reading of the game and as you mentioned breaking up attacks. On one on one I trust Zidane to get the better of him.
 

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You are missing the keepers as well though. Still very important position in the starting 11, especially when there is gulf in quality :)

Jairzinho, Junior and Senna/Makelele are far from perfect in that formation mate. Amancio's prime function is to stretch the play on the right. He isn't as industrious as the ones mentioned, but considering he has a playmaking full back who will tuck in and Signori who will also tuck in I think we won't need a Conti type considering who we face and the game mechanics.

Toure was pretty good for Barca in a much restricted role as a DM - he won two La Liga's and one CL (unlike Weidenfeller he actually played for his side :) ). He won some sort of a lazy label when he grew older but at his peak he was pretty phenomenal in Prem.
I thought one of the main reasons Pep didn't get on with Toure at Barca was that Toure wasn't disciplined enough for Pep's tastes. I don't think the role Toure played for City really maps over here. Same with Amancio really, IO don't think you need stretching play on the right as much as you need the industrious type like Juve had 82-86 or Conti was for Italy.

But then I didn't realize Pillow was going for a zona mista as well rather than just a standard 433. That does change things if he is also going for a zona mista as I don't think he is suited for that tactic either.
 

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If you are playing zona mista you got the wrong full back there. If it isn't zona mista it's much closer to 4-2-3-1 as you have 2 strikers, 1 WF and a #10 on the pitch.

Signori and Boniek are quite different type of players.

Amancio's main role is in attack as highlighted in my last posts. We are not facing a traditional LB/LW combo as both of your wide options on the left will most likely tuck in and in Signori's case you are clearly implying that.

Amancio would be excellent in that role, especially considering he has Gentile covering in defence.
That's surprisingly nonsensical, esp from you.

I'd say Signori is closer to Boniek role than Puskas, whose peak was Magyar not the RM version.
There absolutely is no aspect of the game Amacio is better than Jairzinho at. Good player, but the gulf in class can't be denied. Both are not really similar in style to Bettega tbh, but still Jairzinho will have more of an impact than Amancio.
 

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Makelele won't be able to fend off Zidane on his own. He wasn't the hound that would chase him all over the pitch. Why Makelele excelled was his reading of the game and as you mentioned breaking up attacks. On one on one I trust Zidane to get the better of him.
As against Mackay vs Platini, eh? :lol:

Platini will be running this game than Zidane. Makelele-Senna is a far more effective double pivot than Mackay-Toure.
 

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Since you have nothing else to highlight, eh? :lol: Really moot point behind that defensive line. Agree that Preud'homme is a better kepper, but then Weidenfeller's peak was short but pretty stellar. CL and WC winner to boot.



Gentile is good fit there. No question about that.

But in this match when you look at whom they are facing a classic LB like Nilton is much easier to handle for Burgnich than a free for all drifting LB like Junior who can popup anywhere and run the game with his passing and playmaking abilities. He's the wildcard whom I believe your team will find it difficult to handle.
C'mon :lol:
 

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But then I didn't realize Pillow was going for a zona mista as well rather than just a standard 433. That does change things if he is also going for a zona mista as I don't think he is suited for that tactic either.
It's just what Enigma claims. It is based on template that Platini excelled in, but you'd not find any reference in OP that I'm playing a Zona Mista.
 

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That's surprisingly nonsensical, esp from you.

I'd say Signori is closer to Boniek role than Puskas, whose peak was Magyar not the RM version.
There absolutely is no aspect of the game Amacio is better than Jairzinho at. Good player, but the gulf in class can't be denied. Both are not really similar in style to Bettega tbh, but still Jairzinho will have more of an impact than Amancio.
Signori isn't close to Boniek in terms of style mate, I really find that surprising comparison :confused:

We aren't doing 1:1 replica either, and have tried to explain the roles of each of our attackers. The point is our set up is much more coherent between the lines, whilst your attack is really congested and clustered together.

Jairzino excelled in that WC. Other than that he really didn't replicate that form. And compared to the Brazil 70' set up he doesn't have an overlapping full back here. It's far from ideal for him.
 

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It's just what Enigma claims. It is based on template that Platini excelled in, but you'd not find any reference in OP that I'm playing a Zona Mista.
You mentioned it in the main thread, and much resembles to what you are trying to describe :lol: Why on earth will you compare Signori to Boniek then?

Platini didn't really excel in 4 man attacks mate. Come on.
 

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We aren't doing 1:1 replica either, and have tried to explain the roles of each of our attackers. The point is our set up is much more coherent between the lines, whilst your attack is really congested and clustered together.
Signori - Tucked in left forward.
Law - Centre Forward
Jairzinho - Right Winger
Platini - All action AM

It's pretty straight forward. You keep portraying Signori as some kind of left winger when both in tactics and in picture, I have made it clear he is not.
 

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I thought one of the main reasons Pep didn't get on with Toure at Barca was that Toure wasn't disciplined enough for Pep's tastes. I don't think the role Toure played for City really maps over here. Same with Amancio really, IO don't think you need stretching play on the right as much as you need the industrious type like Juve had 82-86 or Conti was for Italy.

But then I didn't realize Pillow was going for a zona mista as well rather than just a standard 433. That does change things if he is also going for a zona mista as I don't think he is suited for that tactic either.
He was a bit restrained at Barca as it took away from his game and his playmaking having to be a holder. He was in much more focal role at City where he excelled at both ends. Mackay is a very good partner for him and Yaya played in a basically two man midfield yet being able to contribute forward.
 

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Signori - Tucked in left forward.
Law - Centre Forward
Jairzinho - Right Winger
Platini - All action AM

It's pretty straight forward. You keep portraying Signori as some kind of left winger when both in tactics and in picture, I have made it clear he is not.
so how many attackers in there?

Because he's not played as a Left Winger, but rather as a Left Forward. You really need to read my OP rather than make these claims.


What 4 man attacks?
You do realize there is a difference between being a left forward in 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1? :) Comparing Signori's role in Zeman's 4-3-3 isn't really what we have here as you have a classic #10 in Platini, who also was even sort of a 9.5 at his peak considering how important his goals were and how close to goal he was at times.

Either way Signori at his best was SS or a complete #9. Not left winger or left forward.

Here's what Zeman's 4-3-3 was:

http://www.youcoach.it/en/article/a...-3-3-system-wingback-overlapping-zdeněk-zeman

Description
  1. The playmaker 4 comes to receive the pass from defender 5
  2. The playmaker 4 passes the ball to defender 6; the left winger 11 runs forwards diagonally
  3. The central defender 6 passes to the winger 11 who comes to the ball after moving away and checking back
  4. The winger 11 lays the ball back for the right midfielder 10 who is supporting
  5. The midfielder 10 completes the give and go with 11 moving inwards the field to lose his marker
  6. The winger 11 passes the ball to the playmaker 4 who steps forward to support
  7. The playmaker 4 passes the ball vertically to the midfielder 10
  8. The midfielder 10 controls and carries the ball to the box; the left wingback begins to overlap; The right winger 7 runs diagonally into the field
  9. The midfielder 10 passes to the wingback 3 overlapping; the winger 7 becomes centralized with a diagonal run; The striker 9 peels to the edge of the box in line with the back post
  10. The wingback 3 crosses into the box; the midfielder 10 attacks the far post zone; the winger 7 cuts the defensive lines to attack the near post zone; the central striker 9 moves into the box reading the possibility of a second ball for a shot