Sheep Draft Q/F - Sajeev vs VivaJanuzaj

[Skizzo]

The Defence

My defence has been strengthened by Ruggeri joining, and he is exactly tailor-made to manage Batistuta. Bossis has moved to the left flank to bring more experience and composure to the task of taking Figo out of the game. Le Grand Max was a complete defender who could play any role across a back five, but he is a great match for the Portuguese. He wasn't the sort of rash defender a winger could have joy against, his reading of the game, superb positioning, pace and reaction meant he wasn't carded a single time in his career. Bossis kept the record for French caps, only to be overtaken by Amoros, a competent defender and man-marker but one who is expected to be doing far more going forward and, as such, will not be keeping a tight detail on Nedved who will have to be attended to by a covering Green Wall in Paul McGrath, and Márquez whenever he drifts into the centre. Amoros is actually more likely to keep tabs on Breitner through their constant coming and going up and down the pitch, but he will still usually be there to prevent Nedved pulling one of his covering defenders too far wide. That effectively leaves Nedved boxed in between them three: Amoros, McGrath and Márquez.

We understand some don't like Rafa Márquez and his ponytail, but bar Desailly there is hardly any other player in this draft who could execute that all-action DM->SW role as competently. As I was going over some of the videos, I was very highly impressed by his tackling, and his ability to operate in the central space. I guess he is under-rated here but I think he would have got much more recognition if he played for say Argentina instead of Mexico. Anyways, please do check this video for yourself, and you will conclude that not only is he suited for this role, but also that he will excel in it.

Spoiler

My defence provides a world-class basis for a strong team which can manage any attacking threat of the highest level, while also being exceptionally adept at providing a platform for attack.


The Midfield

As much as I hate saying it (as a very biased United fan) if I were being unbiased I would say that the players in my midfield constitute a better core midfied. Davids-Seedorf is as good as it gets for a diamond and Márquez provides a good platform for them to have the freedom to push up or out wide.



The Attack

Marco van Basten and Thierry Henry, three Ballon d'Ors and three European Golden Boots between them. Behind them, another Ballon d'Or winner, Rivaldo pulling the strings.

Spoiler

However good a defence there be, it is going to suffer against this quality of attack. And with due respect to the brilliant players on Viva’s team, I don’t think they will be able to stop my team from scoring goals.


"Width"

The important thing about width isn't having wingers but the ability to stretch the play if needed in order to create gaps in defence. Amoros on the right and Henry on the left can provide that, let alone Rivaldo roaming either side. Davids and Seedorf were also very effective at providing width, a hallmark of their midfield performances at Ajax. Bossis will be far more conservative than Amoros, which is fine as Henry is on that side.

I have a clear plan to deal with his threat from out wide, and two (up to three) excellent defenders in the middle who can cover any breakthrough. At the other end I can provide width, but what is breaking the camel's back is two very good CBs and DM dealing with two GOATs and their foil who is closer to greatness than any of the other three.

Why I Win

I have a robust defence that can deal with anything VivaJ throws at it, a dominant midfield and too much firepower upfront. Viva could choose to beef up his midfield to bring it to more even terms, but then his style would be even more gung-ho, and I can still soak it, and on the break I would pick him apart.

Team Sajeev

Team Viva

 

[Skizzo]

VivaJanuzaj tactics

Tactics:
Basic tactic - A very complete all round team built to improve the gung-ho 4-4-2 around Keane-Scholes. When United played 4-4-2 with Keane and Scholes, they normally had to curb their attacking runs and passing due to fear of being pulled out of position, we wanted to help them maintain the freedom to roam to the upper third of the pitch. How? Dunga, who is a DM who has ball abilities as well as marking abilities will sit more comfortably at the back of the midfield, allowing Keane to play the box-to-box role more comfortably, knowing he's got an extra man behind him, and letting younger Scholes burst into the box and dictating the play like he knows.
The idea is to play direct football, using quick counters through the wings and into the box for Batistuta/Scholes to finish it up.

The wings are better than what United used to have, Figo-Nedved is an improvement for Beckham-Giggs, with both of them very capable of scoring as well as playmaking alongside Scholes.

When attacking, Breitner will be the one overlapping and aiding the attack while Thomas Berthold, the WC winning RB with West Germany, who is known for his defensive abilities more than his offensive ones, will stay back. Nedved and Breitner will overload the LW and Nedved will often cut inside, while Figo will have the RW as his domain to bully any LB put against him.

Route to goal - Our routes to goal are very diverse, we've got either Figo/Nedved cooperating with Scholes to put a through ball to Batistuta's immense movement off the ball, a cut inside from either winger with both having great scoring threat(more than 100 career goals each), a cross from either winger/Breitner to a very aerially capable Batistuta and bursting in-Scholes, or a classic Scholes' long shot.

When defending - We've got a very strong defending unit, Ferrara-Vierchowod is a top class CB pairing. When Ciro Ferrara had Montero as his partner he thrived, and Vierchowod is a very upgraded Montero, a classic stopper who used to dive into challenges and execute them perfectly, both used to mark out some of the best players in the game in the 80-90's Seria A. These two, will be protected from midfield by Dunga and Keane. Dunga will play the DM role and although he was at his best with Mauro Silva next to him, Dunga doesn't need another DM to be an excellent protection to the defensive line, Keane will help him with his incredible defensive abilities and together, with Scholes assistance is a whole lot of protection. Dunga will sit
On the wings, we've got Berthold, a WC winning RB known for his defending, who won't need too much assistance as he proved playing in Germany's 5-3-2 dominating the RB role without any winger's assistance, allowing Figo to stay forward. Breitner on the other hand, will be given much more freedom to roam forward, but with a work-horse like Nedved there, and the cover from midfield and CBs I'm not concerned to get caught on the left side.

Proven partnerships - In defense - apart from Breitner, our entire defensive line and keeper speak Italian. We've got CL winning trio of Peruzzi-Ferrara-Vierchowod who won the 1996 CL together. Even Berthold had it's time in Italy playing for Roma & Verona, so he'll fit in comfortably.
In Attack - We've got the obvious known partnership of Keane-Scholes and our team is built around it. Keane & Scholes were a dominating force in European football for many years, but their problem was always the fact that they couldn't offer enough defensively while going forward so well, that is what Dunga is here to improve, and the known partnership of Keane-Scholes will thrive thanks to it.

The opponent - Sajeev's team is superb, wether he'll play a diamond, 5-3-2 or even a 4-3-3 he's got amazing attacking players in his squad. What I'm hoping to achieve here is taking advantage of his defensive relative weakness in the wings. In any formation Sajeev will go, his lack of width will be something felt, meaning his full backs(Alaba & Amoros) will be forced to bomb forward and provide width. Problematic at both wings thanks to my incredibly strong wings. Figo against Alaba.. Well, I love Alaba and admire his leadership and talent, but the young LB has never faced a RW as good as Figo at his prime, and if he was instructed to keep tabs with Figo throughout the match, I guess that would've limit Figo a bit, but nowhere near enough. Now that he's the main width provider for his team, Figo, who doesn't need to track back, will catch him off guard time and time again. Even with a CB covering for him, I don't think any of Sajeev's CBs are good enough to hold off primed Figo. At the second wing, Breitner will be given plenty of license to marshall forward, while Nedved has the ability to choose wether to overwhelm with him the wing covered by a(yet again) roaming Amoros, or cut inside pulling a CB away from Batistuta. Davids-Seedorf will offer great engine to Sajeev's team, and will have a great influence on the game and on Scholes-Keane attacking contribution, but I see Scholes breaking loose from them a few times throughout the match.
Overall, Sajeev's attacking trio is a bit better than mine, but I think my defense is much better because the weakest player on pitch is Alaba(and the second is Marquez if he starts), but my midfield is much better suited to create chances, and my attack vs Sajeev's defense is much more likely to score than his(better) attack against my(better) defense and that's the bottom line.

 

[Skizzo]

@sajeev @VivaJanuzaj

Good luck to both of you

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

With Dunga on Rivaldo, I don't see anyone else with playmaking ability on Sajeev's team. Seedorf maybe?
With Scholes and Nedved, I see a distinct advantage for Viva.

Let me hear more discussions before voting either way.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Good luck @sajeev , @antohan
Bossis is a great pick for LB from Sajeev, definitely more capable of limiting Figo than Alaba is. But the real question is, will that be enough?

Both of my opponets' full backs have arrows suggests that like any other diamond, they'll be the ones creating width from team Sajeev. But I don't see either of them capable of both maintaining the only width for the opponent while doing any real job on Figo/Nedved.

That leads to the fact, that one of the two options are opt to happen:
1. They do provide the width like arrows suggest: Lets just assume for a minute that only one of them will provide width and not both of them, Amoros/Bossis(whichever provides width in this scenario) goes forward leaving Nedved/Figo to capitalize. If Marquez does stay really back, than it's a 3 vs 4 counter attack with Nedved-Figo-Batistuta against Marquez-McGrath-Ruggeri-Amoros/Bossis. That's pretty good odds. Plus,defending against one side of width is pretty easy. And that's not even bringing up the point that they will both pretty much need to create the width.
2. They don't provide the width like arrows suggest: If they don't provide with well, that would make their defense a tough nut to crack because it will mean he will have a very steady 5 men defense. But that will lead to a very static and slow attack, who won't be really capable of playing into his amazing front three's abilities. Without any possession because there is no width and very few attackers against a great defense, I can't imagine myself conceding. And that tough defensive nut? I can snap it with plenty of ways, Batigol's presence in the box will still be undisputed, and Nedved+Breitner and Figo on both wings can really do damage to that defense.

What's my point? Sajeev has created a great diamond with an amazing attack, but with my team's setup and balance in wings, the diamond is simply a tactical problem against my team.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Also, I have voted to myself so @sajeev you can do the same. I'll reply to your tactics one you're here so you won't get a chance to reply back.

 

[antohan]

With Dunga on Rivaldo, I don't see anyone else with playmaking ability on Sajeev's team. Seedorf maybe?
With Scholes and Nedved, I see a distinct advantage for Viva.

Let me hear more discussions before voting either way.

Bossis and Marquez passing from deep.

Davids-Seedorf are very dynamic players who can make things happen, just not creative geniuses like Rivaldo.

You are also making the ridiculous assumption of Dunga somehow neutralising Rivaldo. It's far more likely that Scholes will be neutered by Davids and Nedved has three men keeping a firm eye on him. Everywhere he likes drifting there's someone to pick him up.

 

[Cutch]

Really like Sajeev's side and glad to see he's adjusted his formation now with another forward and a GOAT at that in Van Basten. Has a nice balance to it throughout. Marquez is a bit underwhelming at this level but i don't see him particularly exposed given the likes of Davids around him. Think Rivaldo and Henry could link up pretty well in the inside left channel and with MVB leading the line i think his attack looks pretty good.

Viva also has a class side but 1 or 2 things don't quite sit right with me. Seeing Scholes and Keane in anything other than a 4-4-2 leaves me a bit uncertain, and i always associate Batistuta with having a Rui Costa type behind him, or a Lopez/Crespo alongside him. Still a cracking team but i marginally prefer sajeev's.

 

[antohan]

Good luck @sajeev , @antohan
Bossis is a great pick for LB from Sajeev, definitely more capable of limiting Figo than Alaba is. But the real question is, will that be enough?

It is. From a defensive standpoint he is the best LB in the draft.

Both of my opponets' full backs have arrows suggests that like any other diamond, they'll be the ones creating width from team Sajeev. But I don't see either of them capable of both maintaining the only width for the opponent while doing any real job on Figo/Nedved.

That leads to the fact, that one of the two options are opt to happen:
1. They do provide the width like arrows suggest: Lets just assume for a minute that only one of them will provide width and not both of them, Amoros/Bossis(whichever provides width in this scenario) goes forward leaving Nedved/Figo to capitalize. If Marquez does stay really back, than it's a 3 vs 4 counter attack with Nedved-Figo-Batistuta against Marquez-McGrath-Ruggeri-Amoros/Bossis. That's pretty good odds. Plus,defending against one side of width is pretty easy. And that's not even bringing up the point that they will both pretty much need to create the width.
2. They don't provide the width like arrows suggest: If they don't provide with well, that would make their defense a tough nut to crack because it will mean he will have a very steady 5 men defense. But that will lead to a very static and slow attack, who won't be really capable of playing into his amazing front three's abilities. Without any possession because there is no width and very few attackers against a great defense, I can't imagine myself conceding. And that tough defensive nut? I can snap it with plenty of ways, Batigol's presence in the box will still be undisputed, and Nedved+Breitner and Figo on both wings can really do damage to that defense.

What's my point? Sajeev has created a great diamond with an amazing attack, but with my team's setup and balance in wings, the diamond is simply a tactical problem against my team.

Read the OP. It is clearly stated that:

1. Bossis will largely be staying behind
2. It's no big deal because Davids, and Henry in particular, can stretch the play on that side.
3. Amoros will largely be engaged ina constant back and forth with Breitner.

That leaves a back three of Bossis, Ruggeri and McGrath, shielded by Marquez to deal with Figo-Nedved and Omar on the break.

I prefer the odds there over Vierchowod, Ferrara and Berthold shielded by Dunga facing Rivaldo, Henry and van Basten.

Our defensive unit is better and our attacking trio is more dangerous on the break.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Seeing Scholes and Keane in anything other than a 4-4-2 leaves me a bit uncertain

That's a bit conservative is it? Canceling a thought because you're not used to seeing it like this? Other wise, if we did have them in a 4-4-2 you'd say it's too gung ho.

You are also making the ridiculous assumption of Dunga somehow neutralising Rivaldo. It's far more likely that Scholes will be neutered by Davids and Nedved has three men keeping a firm eye on him. Everywhere he likes drifting there's someone to pick him up.

I agree completely Dunga will not neutralize Rivaldo whatsoever. But, I don't buy this "3 men keeping a firm eye on Nedved" thing. It's like saying: "well no one is marking him but we are closing him nevertheless".

 

[antohan]

@Skizzo can you get rid of that broken record at the beginning of sajeev's tactics? While you are at it bold Defence and add The before it.

fecking copy pastes

 

[antohan]

I agree completely Dunga will not neutralize Rivaldo whatsoever. But, I don't buy this "3 men keeping a firm eye on Nedved" thing. It's like saying: "well no one is marking him but we are closing him nevertheless".

It is what it is. No one is man-marking him because he roams and drifts infield a lot. Subject to what he is up to and how play is shaping up any out of Amoros/Marquez/McGrath and Seedorf will be dealing with him.

That's actually how football works, you rarely see a defender gluing himself to a player like Nedved and chasing him all over the pitch. You keep your shape and whoever has to take him on does so.

The point is there's no wide open space Nedved can drift into unchallenged.

 

[antohan]

Anyhow @VivaJanuzaj I'll leave this for Sajeev and you to have your own bout.

I've just driven for 2-3 hours and the wife isn't happy I'm glued to my phone typing on Redcafe. I think she would actually be happier if it were a mistress.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

The point is there's no wide open space Nedved can drift into unchallenged.

Really? With Amoros being given freedom to roam forward plus needing to cover for bursting runs from the great Breitner, so for most of the game it's not really Amoros/Marquez/McGrath and Seedorf dealing with him. That's a lie . To be reason and "how football actually works", allowing Amoros to bomb that flank mean Nedved will often finding himself against a much slower McGrath and I bet he can beat him several times. Seedorf will have his own business in midfield with Keano, Marquez will need to aid either McGrath, Ruggeri(with Batistuta, whose beaten better defenders than him), or Davids with Scholes

 

[Cutch]

That's a bit conservative is it? Canceling a thought because you're not used to seeing it like this? Other wise, if we did have them in a 4-4-2 you'd say it's too gung ho.

Nah you're speaking to the wrong man. Had both in a previous draft and stuck stubbornly to 4-4-2 all the way (though i didn't win it so you may have a point). Just so used to seeing Scholes inparticular getting on the ball from deep and benefitting from having his own space in the middle. I do like the targets he has wide though i'd much prefer to see a Rui Costa type player in that side rather than Dunga who i don't really see contributing much to this game.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Nah you're speaking to the wrong man. Had both in a previous draft and stuck stubbornly to 4-4-2 all the way (though i didn't win it so you may have a point). Just so used to seeing Scholes inparticular getting on the ball from deep and benefitting from having his own space in the middle. I do like the targets he has wide though i'd much prefer to see a Rui Costa type player in that side rather than Dunga who i don't really see contributing much to this game.

I get where you come from, but it sounds to me like you you remember only latter years' Scholes and not the young version who liked to play at the final third and burst into the box to finish team moves from the wings.

 

[antohan]

Really? With Amoros being given freedom to roam forward plus needing to cover for bursting runs from the great Breitner, so for most of the game it's not really Amoros/Marquez/McGrath and Seedorf dealing with him. That's a lie . To be reason and "how football actually works", allowing Amoros to bomb that flank mean Nedved will often finding himself against a much slower McGrath and I bet he can beat him several times. Seedorf will have his own business in midfield with Keano, Marquez will need to aid either McGrath, Ruggeri(with Batistuta, whose beaten better defenders than him), or Davids with Scholes

I'm lying? If anything you are twisting the truth, particularly re:McGrath. For shame!

We've been very clear and precise in the write-up. Amoros WILL mostly be dealing with Breitner. On occasion though, he will be dealing with Nedved if he comes wide. It's obvious.

When Amoros is way up the pitch and potentially caught out McGrath does indeed cover, and he in turn gets covered by Marquez. That's the point of Marquez, he is a spare man coming in support wherever he may be needed, as opposed to Dunga facing the ungodly task of man-marking Rivaldo.

That is one thing that makes our defence more robust because Marquez will be more effective at his job of covering gaps than Dunga will be with his futile man-marking mission. The other of course is having better defenders well suited to the challenges faced.

 

[Cutch]

I get where you come from, but it sounds to me like you you remember only latter years' Scholes and not the young version who liked to play at the final third and burst into the box to finish team moves from the wings.

Probably true to be fair. Scholes is a funny one in these drafts as there's so many different versions of him offering the complete package overall but never at the same time if you know what i mean. Obviously we remember the latter years Scholes better but at the start he played upfront and i never even thought he'd end up in midfield.

Really? With Amoros being given freedom to roam forward plus needing to cover for bursting runs from the great Breitner, so for most of the game it's not really Amoros/Marquez/McGrath and Seedorf dealing with him. That's a lie . To be reason and "how football actually works", allowing Amoros to bomb that flank mean Nedved will often finding himself against a much slower McGrath and I bet he can beat him several times. Seedorf will have his own business in midfield with Keano, Marquez will need to aid either McGrath, Ruggeri(with Batistuta, whose beaten better defenders than him), or Davids with Scholes

Now you're guilty of the same thing as you're suggesting i am. McGrath slowed down in later years but had plenty of pace at his peak, many talk of him being the best natural athlete they've seen. I'm not sure if Nedved is quicker than him at all.

Kevin Moran
"He had what very few players have. It's what we call an overdrive. It's the ability to be running at high pace with someone and all of a sudden, from nowhere, it's like a fifth gear kicks in. Boom, the turbo comes on. And he could just wipe out the opponents to get there.''

 

[Isotope]

Based on quality, Marquez so out of place in this midfield battle.

 

[harms]

I really see a glimpse of my team in sajeev's - but much better balanced. And I already convinced myself that even my team could've won it, if I were a little smarter. Voted for him - Viva's team is top heavy but something just doesn't feels right for me - I can't quite put it in words though, which isn't fair to him.

Also, I'm not sure if Marquez is that much worse that Dunga. Especially considering that Marquez can drop back and Dunga can not - which is a great bonus.

 

[antohan]

Based on quality, Marquez so out of place in this midfield battle.

Based on quality, Rivaldo shits on Dunga, while no one is "battling" Marquez to begin with: he is a spare DM/SW ready to support wherever needed from that central position. Viva's spare man is Berthold, marooned out wide, and no better than Marquez as a defender, let alone in that role or on the ball.

Seriously, watch the bloody clip, most times at Barca he was a last man standing defence in his own right. You won't find a Barca fan who wouldn't bite your hand off if you offered them prime Marquez today.

Just think how much safer he would be with Ruggeri and McGrath behind him, Bossis and Amoros either side, and Davids-Seedorf ahead.

 

[antohan]

Also, I'm not sure if Marquez is that much worse that Dunga. Especially considering that Marquez can drop back and Dunga can not - which is a great bonus.

Exactly, and Dunga is facing the most challenging job anywhere on the pitch, or thereabouts considering poor Pietro has to shut out van Basten, somehow.

Marquez has complete freedom to offer support wherever required, he is in his element.

 

[antohan]

WATCH THE MARQUEZ CLIP FFS, then tell me what better players there are for that free defensive cover role (other than Desailly, whose passing isn't anywhere close).

 

[Isotope]

Based on quality, Rivaldo shits on Dunga, while no one is "battling" Marquez to begin with: he is a spare DM/SW ready to support wherever needed from that central position. Viva's spare man is Berthold, marooned out wide, and no better than Marquez as a defender, let alone in that role or on the ball.

Seriously, watch the bloody clip, most times at Barca he was a last man standing defence in his own right. You won't find a Barca fan who wouldn't bite your hand off if you offered them prime Marquez today.

Just think how much safer he would be with Ruggeri and McGrath behind him, Bossis and Amoros either side, and Davids-Seedorf ahead.

No one in the world would take Marquez over Dunga, unless you're Barca fans. And I'd take my defence protected by Dunga and Keano, than Marquez and Davids.

And looking at the midfield battle, I'm sure Marquez would have more than a hand full supporting his team against Keano-Scholes-Nedved, more so 'to support as DM and SW as he pleased, just because the opponent doesn't have a dedicated AMC". And he's 'just' fecking Marquez who's relatively slow, not Summer or Beckenbauer.

 

[crappycraperson]

Viva's team is well set up to counter sajeev's.

- Having Figo on right and combo of Nedved+Brietner on wings mean, neither full backs would truly get to provide an outlet out wide.
- Dunga may not be able to mark out Rivaldo out of the game but it is blood good having him closing out the space he can do damage from.
- Viva also has a purely defensive right back which will again help out against Henry drifting wide or Rivaldo attacking the left channel.
- Call me biased but I favor combo of Keane-Scholes over Davids-Keane especially since in a diamond, both Davids -Seedorf will also have an additional charge of going wide at times to cover.
- @Cutch assertion about no Rui costa is also not correct with Scholes in there, who had one of the best seasons of his career playing behind RVN.
- Only sticking point is Van Basten. You can't stop him so that goal has to be to cut off his service which I do think Viva's defensive unit is largely doing here.

With Figo and Nedved out wide, I think game will have sajeev's side largely being reactive with the 442 diamond falling back to 5-2-1-2 (3-4-1-2). So it basically comes down to, as anto says, if you believe sajeev's side can withstand the threat from Batigol, Figo, Nedved, Scholes and hurt the opposition on counter. That sounds pretty good until you remember that Viva has at least 4 players always staying back in his 2CBs, RB and Dunga, and even Keane many times, to starve off any counters.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

That's a bit conservative is it? Canceling a thought because you're not used to seeing it like this? Other wise, if we did have them in a 4-4-2 you'd say it's too gung ho.

Keane and Scholes have become typecast, I think, to an extent you don't see with many other players - who also flourished in particular systems, yet are being freely used in completely different systems without anyone reacting wildly to it.

I think it's unfair. It's almost like you can't do anything to upgrade the Fergie formula if you happen to sport Keane + Scholes. And yet everyone will expect you to do just that - upgrade it, that is. And how do you do that without fielding a third man in the middle? The system IS hung-ho by definition, almost - and as such it is not something you want to be stuck with against any and all opponents. Eventually you'll lose - it's not a winning formula in a fantasy draft.

That said, I'm not sure Dunga is the right man here. Not sure about that at all. I love Dunga, but there is something about the mix/balance as such which doesn't quite do it for me.

 

[NoPace]

WATCH THE MARQUEZ CLIP FFS, then tell me what better players there are for that free defensive cover role (other than Desailly, whose passing isn't anywhere close).

Like, in general? Restricting myself to the modern players who I've actually seen more then the odd game and off the top of my head: Sammer, Hierro, Busquets, Makelele, Mascherano, Deschamps, Lahm and De Rossi. Then there's guys who had great peaks (like Marquez) like Javi Martinez and Matic in recent years (and this is on peak, yes?). And then probably some CB's you think would thrive in that role, as the above are mostly DM's.

Marquez might be the best long passer out of those guys (though Hierro was pretty strong), but I think you're going a bit over the top.

 

[Skizzo]

@Skizzo can you get rid of that broken record at the beginning of sajeev's tactics? While you are at it bold Defence and add The before it.

fecking copy pastes

Done

 

[crappycraperson]

Like, in general? Restricting myself to the modern players who I've actually seen more then the odd game and off the top of my head: Sammer, Hierro, Busquets, Makelele, Mascherano, Deschamps, Lahm and De Rossi. Then there's guys who had great peaks (like Marquez) like Javi Martinez and Matic in recent years (and this is on peak, yes?). And then probably some CB's you think would thrive in that role, as the above are mostly DM's.

Marquez might be the best long passer out of those guys (though Hierro was pretty strong), but I think you're going a bit over the top.

Yeah. Again, he showed for Mexico that he can play this role but let's not forget that he did concede that decisive penalty against Robben.

 

[kps88]

Trivial thing that is annoying me - how is Sajeev's formation graphic a different size when they both used the same website?

 

[harms]

Yeah. Again, he showed for Mexico that he can play this role but let's not forget that he did concede that decisive penalty against Robben.

Not sure how this counts as an argument. He was 35 and Robben dived there.

Definitely not the best modern player to play in this role - but in this draft particularly, I'd say, not much are better - a very solid pick. As I said, I don't know why he is considered as a weak spot, when Dunga isn't - I would consider them to be on the same level myself. Both are solid picks.

 

[harms]

Trivial thing that is annoying me - how is Sajeev's formation graphic a different size when they both used the same website?

sajeev removed the free space around the pitch and posted the picture, vj just posted the original link

 

[crappycraperson]

Not sure how this counts as an argument. He was 35 and Robben dived there.

Definitely not the best modern player to play in this role - but in this draft particularly, I'd say, not much are better - a very solid pick. As I said, I don't know why he is considered as a weak spot, when Dunga isn't - I would consider them to be on the same level myself. Both are solid picks.

Because many people see Dunga as one half of one of the best defensive partnerships to feature in a tournament in Dunga-Silva.

 

[harms]

Because many people see Dunga as one half of one of the best defensive partnerships to feature in a tournament in Dunga-Silva.

Yeah, I understand, I'm just talking about system/adaptability etc. VJ isn't playing like that Brazil did - and individually I don't think that Dunga stands out that much? Or am I underrating him?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yeah, I understand, I'm just talking about system/adaptability etc. VJ isn't playing like that Brazil did - and individually I don't think that Dunga stands out that much? Or am I underrating him?

I rate Dunga very highly. Very intelligent player and better on the ball + a better passer than he is generally given credit for.

I don't fancy him in that role, though. He sits too deep for me and doesn't look right as a sole DM/holder figure, even if he does get "help" in a very general sense from Keano.

Out of the famous pair, Dunga was clearly more of a central midfielder than Mauro Silva - who was largely a destroyer/purely defensive midfielder. In a sense HE would be a better fit in Viva's team, in that particular role, even though Dunga is obviously the better player.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Jesus, really hard answering to everybody especially with anto's multiple commenting.
@Cutch, maybe I am guilty of forgetting younger McGrath, but from what I do remember, even at his prime he doesn't have what it takes to completely mark out Nedved at his prime, especially Nedved who has lots of space and a bursting Breitner joining him.

@harms I don't see any reason why in order to play Dunga I have to play the exact setup like Brazil did, I mean come on people this is a fantasy draft - think outside the box occasionally! If we keep playing the same partnerships in the same setups like they did in reality than the drafting process has no value whatsoever. If Dunga can only play with Mauro Silva, or Scholes-Keane can only play 4-4-2 than the "fantasy" part is redundant and we're completely wasting our time here.


@antohan I've never said Dunga will man mark Rivaldo out of the match, never meant to imply it either. Yes, from Rivaldo and Dunga's positions they will probably clash often, that's fair, but that doesn't make Dunga man marking him - he'll focus on him yes, will he cancel him? no. Of course not because it's bloody Rivaldo. But in a system where Sajeev has width only on the right wing, and that width is being created by one player, you've got Breitner comfortably facing Amoros, while the rest of that amazing attack is stuck in the middle with no space to operate. That's the beauty of Dunga-Keane in my setup and Berthold as the RCB - Berthold(a WC winner in that role) has the options to either take a drifting Henry, help with Rivaldo or just stack up the middle, causing Rivaldo-Henry-Van Basten to operate in a really tight area with no room for movement.

I really don't see my opponents scoring here, well perhaps one because he's firepower is fecking amazing, but the setup will force his attack to play really predictable and only through the middle. When my team defends, it got Berthold-Ferrara-Vierchowod-Dunga-Keane all stacking up the central area, making the attackers severely suffer from lack of space to move in, and with no players to force my team to stretch out it will be really easy to defend against it.

 

[crappycraperson]

sajeev's reply since seemingly he can't post in the thread ???

With respect to NoPace's point about Marquez, the only player who can do that role better in his long list both attacking & defending is Sammer and maybe Hierro. Most of the others can't drop that well into defense and also can't pass as well as him.

Also crappycraperson makes the mistake of thinking again that the positions are static, while in reality, during the game, Amoros will have enough chances to move forward, since my midfield will dominate his, as much as you would like to think otherwise. Davids & Seedorf will manage the situation better compared to the more aggressive Keane & Scholes. My defence is well set-up to counter his attack both tactically as well as in quality of personnel, while his defence can't really cope with my attack through out the match.

 

[Balu]

I rate Dunga very highly. Very intelligent player and better on the ball + a better passer than he is generally given credit for.

I don't fancy him in that role, though. He sits too deep for me and doesn't look right as a sole DM/holder figure, even if he does get "help" in a very general sense from Keano.

Out of the famous pair, Dunga was clearly more of a central midfielder than Mauro Silva - who was largely a destroyer/purely defensive midfielder. In a sense HE would be a better fit in Viva's team, in that particular role, even though Dunga is obviously the better player.

Just my opinion, of course.

I think he should play Scholes at the tip of a midfield triangle with Keane next to Dunga. That would look more natural for the players in my opinion, even though you miss out on placing Keane next to Scholes in the formation, which probably is a visual vote winner here. I agree that Silva was more the destroyer/holding midfielder, while Dunga was more of a CM, whose ability to keep the game ticking is often underrated in these draft games.

 

[crappycraperson]

@sajeev I don't think positions are static but I am struggling to see how often Amoros will get forward since he is up against combo of Nedved and Brietner. The latter has pretty much no one to defend against here, Seedorf can go out wide to provide a presence but he is not going to run with the ball down the line.

I am not sure what you mean by 'aggressive' Keane and Scholes. Keane is playing is proper box to box role. He has managed against better players than Seedorf. Scholes against Davids is a fair fight and yeah I can buy Davids keeping a hold of Scholes. Overall the success of Keane and Scholes together does give them that edge against the dutch duo.

And to repeat myself from earlier- viva's defense is well set up to counter yours. He has a DM to sit back and cut off attacks through the middle (+Keane in a similar area), a designated defensive right back against a team with 2 attackers who like to peel off to the left. Van Basten is the wild card of sorts but he would be against any defense even with all timers. The key is to cut off his supply.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

re crappy's post of Sajeev:

I'll gladly allow his midfield to control this game as it would play for my advantage. My team will be deadly going into the counter and moreover, it will be impeccable defensively against that setup when defending with numbers and I will easily stack up the central midfield and defense resulting at his players frustrating for not having options out wide.

I don't know how you guys don't see it, Sajeev's formation with his tactics is attacking suicide:

So simple: He controls possession, I stack the middle with only Amoros as the width option handled by Breitner, Scholes-Keane-Dunga making the midfield incredibly stack and Berthold adds to the central defense with no threat whatsoever from Sajeev's LW. Rivaldo-Henry-VB with no real room to operate and have to rely on personal brilliance.
When I get the ball, either Scholes or Breitner or even Dunga can send the ball forward where Figo-Nedved-Batistuta face Marquez-Bossis-McGrath-Ruggeri. My odds of scoring here are very high.