Sheep Draft Q/F - Sajeev vs VivaJanuzaj

[harms]

@harms I don't see any reason why in order to play Dunga I have to play the exact setup like Brazil did, I mean come on people this is a fantasy draft - think outside the box occasionally! If we keep playing the same partnerships in the same setups like they did in reality than the drafting process has no value whatsoever. If Dunga can only play with Mauro Silva, or Scholes-Keane can only play 4-4-2 than the "fantasy" part is redundant and we're completely wasting our time here.

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is

• I'm not sure about how I, personally, rate Dunga outside that Brazil team and his partnership with Silva, for example. He was a great player, but I tend to think that Marquez was too - around the same level. Maybe I'm overrating Marquez and/or underrating Dunga here
• I'm sure that I don't like Dunga with Keane and Scholes like you pictured - not because I can not think outside the box, but because he isn't the right player here. As Chester said earlier, Silva, an inferior player, would've been a better fit here. Like Balu said, it would've been better to have Scholes ahead of Keane and Dunga pair
• You would've been better off with someone like Stielike here - someone, who provides cover for "gung-ho" Fergie pair and don't screw their chemistry

I'll stop discussing Dunga though. It feels like I'm stuck on one thing that I don't like about your team and just pointing and pointing at it - doesn't seem fair.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Also, I don't like the fact that Sajeev and antohan assume that either one of my wingers can be contained by nothing else than a GOAT defender. Come on, have you forgotten how awesome and unstoppable this guys were? Figo was incredibly two footed, leaving defenders on the ground so many times scoring so many goals outside the box. If you'll skip the first minute of this vid you'll see a few of those - Check it out, he comes from the middle, he comes from the left, he comes from the right.


And Nedved, was so complete. Have you completely forgot about the damage he can do the a defender that you think McGrath can stop him by himself with so much space on that flank?
I want to remind you that Figo & Nedved will be changing wings, and when Figo faces McGrath too...

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

re crappy's post of Sajeev:

I'll gladly allow his midfield to control this game as it would play for my advantage. My team will be deadly going into the counter and moreover, it will be impeccable defensively against that setup when defending with numbers and I will easily stack up the central midfield and defense resulting at his players frustrating for not having options out wide.

I don't know how you guys don't see it, Sajeev's formation with his tactics is attacking suicide:

So simple: He controls possession, I stack the middle with only Amoros as the width option handled by Breitner, Scholes-Keane-Dunga making the midfield incredibly stack and Berthold adds to the central defense with no threat whatsoever from Sajeev's LW. Rivaldo-Henry-VB with no real room to operate and have to rely on personal brilliance.
When I get the ball, either Scholes or Breitner or even Dunga can send the ball forward where Figo-Nedved-Batistuta face Marquez-Bossis-McGrath-Ruggeri. My odds of scoring here are very high.

quoting this for page #2

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think he should play Scholes at the tip of a midfield triangle with Keane next to Dunga. That would look more natural for the players in my opinion, even though you miss out on placing Keane next to Scholes in the formation, which probably is a visual vote winner here. I agree that Silva was more the destroyer/holding midfielder, while Dunga was more of a CM, whose ability to keep the game ticking is often underrated in these draft games.

Aye, I'd rather see that: Play Scholes (younger version) as a dedicated AM (linking up more clearly with 'Stuta too, which is a good thing, I reckon) in front of Keano-Dunga as a CM/DM pairing of sorts. That ain't bad at all for my money - and a better utilization of the resources.

Something like this:

Spoiler: Dunga-Keane-Scholes

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Aye, I'd rather see that: Play Scholes (younger version) as a dedicated AM (linking up more clearly with 'Stuta too, which is a good thing, I reckon) in front of Keano-Dunga as a CM/DM pairing of sorts. That ain't bad at all for my money - and a better utilization of the resources.

Something like this:

Spoiler: Dunga-Keane-Scholes

Nah mate, that's playing into his strengths. I love the fact that I can allow Keano the freedom he deserves, enough with making him focus on defense in these drafts! Keane essentially plays that role a bit, and I'll explain how. We've both agreed that Sajeev will try to control possession, and I agreed to concede possession while moving my team deep and hitting on the break. Keane will do just that and like my formation posted above shows, when I defend Keane will operate in a deep role, the reason why him and Scholes are together isn't in order to please United fans by saying "look there's Scholes and Keane together in the midfield", no. It's for suggesting that they will both have the freedom to go up and down like they did for United, except here they won't leave the defense hanging up to dry. Plus, Scholes isn't supposed to be a pure AM here, he's supposed to help with the defending bit against that possession controlling side, than pick his moments to go forward like he loved and joining the box for a Figo/Nedved cross on the counter.

 

[Theon]

Based on quality, Marquez so out of place in this midfield battle.

Aye, sums it up.

There isn't a dedicated #10 for Viva but I think Scholes bursting forward would cause Marquez problems, as would Nedved drifting centrally.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I don't see any post regarding Ruggeri-Batistuta either.
From Sajeev's tactics it seems he is willing to let Ruggeri man mark alone Batistuta - that will be madness. As capable as Ruggeri was, Batistuta scored with much less support against the likes of Maldini, Cannavaro, Nesta, Bergomi etc on the daily basis when he was in Italy. He pretty much scored against every GOAT defender there is, but Ruggeri will man mark him. Funny.
And when has he ever had a single passer as good as one of Figo/Nedved/Scholes? Let alone 3 of them.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Aye, sums it up.

There isn't a dedicated #10 for Viva but I think Scholes bursting forward would cause Marquez problems, as would Nedved drifting centrally.

@Isotope
Yes, and that's exactly why Nedved started on the LW and not Figo. And that's why the arrows are there. Nedved and Scholes will have so much space to do damage, whereas Rivaldo on the other hand(whose also facing the weaker midfielder in my team) has a very crowded central midfield-defense to operate in, in which he can't do as much as he normally can.

My opponent's tactics is suicide.

 

[mazhar13]

This matchup is too close for me. I think I might have to skip out on voting in this match because there really isn't anything between these two sides, for me.

Viva has a good system in place for the players that he has. I do believe that quick counters will be problematic for Sajeev's team given that most of the players will commit forward. Keane is really tough to shake off, and with the freedom that Dunga provides him, he'll make it tough for Rivaldo and Seedorf in midfield. Dunga, himself, is very good at covering up the gaps on the pitch, and he's quite a good reader of the game. Dunga combined with Keane is a midfield that can take care of a large portion of the pitch, defensively, with energy, tactical acumen, intelligence, and strong defensive skills. On the counter, Dunga's great at launching quick attacks. Likewise with Keane with his underrated passing ability. Scholes, himself, is very well-known for playing at a fast tempo, and his ability to play a quick diagonal out to the wide areas has the potential to cause problems, particularly with Batigol occupying Ruggeri and one of Marquez/McGrath. Then, you have his late, ghosting runs into the box to deal with.

Having said all of this, however, Sajeev's team is well-set to handle Viva's more defensive setup. van Basten will always be able to score goals, no doubt. Henry is difficult to shut down himself, and he will always be a threat. Rivaldo will definitely give Dunga and Keane a tough time with his amazing ability to hold the ball, dribble past players, and ghost into goalscoring positions. Seedorf and Davids is a very balanced partnership as well, like Keane and Scholes, and if they get quite a bit of time on the ball, I would see them having quite an influence in the match, particularly Seedorf. Marquez getting the ball in the deeper areas will be useful as he can launch some nice passes forward to van Basten, Henry, or Rivaldo, potentially catching out Ferrara/Vierchovod. His defensive setup looks fairly okay to deal with Viva's counterattacks, particularly as Davids and Seedorf are very energetic, physical midfielders.

Yeah, this is a draw for me, so far. I don't really know which team will win. Help me decide @sajeev & @VivaJanuzaj .

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Nah mate, that's playing into his strengths. I love the fact that I can allow Keano the freedom he deserves, enough with making him focus on defense in these drafts! Keane essentially plays that role a bit, and I'll explain how. We've both agreed that Sajeev will try to control possession, and I agreed to concede possession while moving my team deep and hitting on the break. Keane will do just that and like my formation posted above shows, when I defend Keane will operate in a deep role, the reason why him and Scholes are together isn't in order to please United fans by saying "look there's Scholes and Keane together in the midfield", no. It's for suggesting that they will both have the freedom to go up and down like they did for United, except here they won't leave the defense hanging up to dry. Plus, Scholes isn't supposed to be a pure AM here, he's supposed to help with the defending bit against that possession controlling side, than pick his moments to go forward like he loved and joining the box for a Figo/Nedved cross on the counter.

Fair enough. I understand what you're aiming for, I just don't think it's a sound strategy. Dunga isn't right for his role, nor is Scholes capable of providing the sort of defensive contribution you seem to want from him.

It's not a hopeless approach, though, by any means - more a case of not quite having enough to pull it off.

"Not quite right" more than "way off", if you know what I mean.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I don't see any post regarding Ruggeri-Batistuta either.
From Sajeev's tactics it seems he is willing to let Ruggeri man mark alone Batistuta - that will be madness. As capable as Ruggeri was, Batistuta scored with much less support against the likes of Maldini, Cannavaro, Nesta, Bergomi etc on the daily basis when he was in Italy. He pretty much scored against every GOAT defender there is, but Ruggeri will man mark him. Funny.
And when has he ever had a single passer as good as one of Figo/Nedved/Scholes? Let alone 3 of them.

Not madness. It's a fairly even battle which can go either way. Ruggeri is a GOAT defender and one of the greatest pure stoppers ever. In fact there aren't too many better suited to dealing with Batistuta's gameplay, esp his aerial ability, than 'Big Head' Ruggeri. Not that Batistuta is an one dimensional aerial striker, but it a key aspect of his game, particularly with Nedved's and Figo's deliveries being one of your prime forms of service.

I would actually have been pleased with the lack of posts on Batistuta-Ruggeri if I were you tbh .

 

[Annahnomoss]

Dunga would definitely be a very free defensive midfielder to utilize his best abilities but overall both teams are very even and Dunga is a far better player than Marquez who I don't rate at all to be honest. With Scholes and Keane being overly offensive that defensive midfield role would be much more of the ilk of a regular central midfielder role.

If Scholes or Keane gets the chance to push inside the box they'd take it, and by then you'd rather want someone who can form a midfield duo with the remaining one than a pure defensive midfielder. Scholes and Keane already has enough energy in it as well, I don't think adding someone like Silva would be better than someone like Dunga who was more about great positioning and reading the game perfectly.

Sajeev's offensive trio are slightly better than Vivas here, but Marquez is an eye-sore at this stage and he'll make sure that the midfield battle goes hands down to VJ.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Not madness. It's a fairly even battle which can go either way. Ruggeri is a GOAT defender and one of the greatest pure stoppers ever. In fact there aren't too many better suited to dealing with Batistuta's aerial ability than 'Big Head' Ruggeri. Not that Batistuta is an one dimensional aerial striker but it a key aspect of his game, esp with Nedved's and Figo's deliveries being one of your prime forms of service.

I would actually have been pleased with the lack of posts on Batistuta-Ruggeri if I were you tbh .

I don't buy it. In that case - Vierchowod who is also one of the best stoppers in the game and clearly a GOAT defender, can completely stop Van Basten. But you don't see me claiming it because I think it will be BS.

 

[mazhar13]

So far, Viva's convinced me with his arguments. I still think that Davids and Seedorf, particularly Davids, have the energy to recover, but Viva's attacks may be too fast for Sajeev to handle.

I'll give @sajeev one last chance to convince me.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Sajeevs team has very little width, but is very well setup to counter VJs width.

Marquez managed to shut out Zico (lol) but faces a greater and different challenge here, in terms of the sheer final third space utilization by VJ.

On the other hand, Dunga is being underrated here, he'll certainly not be in Rivaldos pocket, though I expect the latter to have an edge.

Van Basten will score. Henry will provide enough distraction to help towards that.

Batistuta will also score, I can't see the supply to him being cut off at all.

The midfield duos on either side will effectively cancel each other out IMO. At best, one side will enjoy a slight advantage at different times but it's not a game breaker at all.

Ultimately, the creativity on vivas team is varied and comes from different areas of the pitch and that for me separates the two teams. Will vote for him but still waiting for some game changing tactical alterations.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Sajeevs team has very little width, but is very well setup to counter VJs width.

Marquez managed to shut out Zico (lol) but faces a greater and different challenge here, in terms of the sheer final third space utilization by VJ.

On the other hand, Dunga is being underrated here, he'll certainly not be in Rivaldos pocket, though I expect the latter to have an edge.

Van Basten will score. Henry will provide enough distraction to help towards that.

Batistuta will also score, I can't see the supply to him being cut off at all.

The midfield duos on either side will effectively cancel each other out IMO. At best, one side will enjoy a slight advantage at different times but it's not a game breaker at all.

Ultimately, the creativity on vivas team is varied and comes from different areas of the pitch and that for me separates the two teams. Will vote for him but still waiting for some game changing tactical alterations.

I guess thats a fair breakdown, except the bold part

But I don't see anything about Figo and Nedved causing chaos here. How come it's being overlooked?

 

[RoadTrip]

There is no way I can decide who wins here.

 

[Joga Bonito]

I don't buy it. In that case - Vierchowod who is also one of the best stoppers in the game and clearly a GOAT defender, can completely stop Van Basten. But you don't see me claiming it because I think it will be BS.

No one's claiming that Ruggeri will completely stop Batistuta. Just claiming that it will be a fairly even battle and not madness. Anyway based on just the reductionist individual battle and ignoring the bigger tactical picture, I'll rate Ruggeri to have more joy against Batistuta than Vierchowod against Van Basten.

Too tight to call here with lots to like about both teams. Will try to vote later after hearing more from Sajeev/anto. Great game.

 

[antohan]

Viva's team is well set up to counter sajeev's.

- Having Figo on right and combo of Nedved+Brietner on wings mean, neither full backs would truly get to provide an outlet out wide.
- Dunga may not be able to mark out Rivaldo out of the game but it is blood good having him closing out the space he can do damage from.
- Viva also has a purely defensive right back which will again help out against Henry drifting wide or Rivaldo attacking the left channel.
- Call me biased but I favor combo of Keane-Scholes over Davids-Keane especially since in a diamond, both Davids -Seedorf will also have an additional charge of going wide at times to cover.
- @Cutch assertion about no Rui costa is also not correct with Scholes in there, who had one of the best seasons of his career playing behind RVN.
- Only sticking point is Van Basten. You can't stop him so that goal has to be to cut off his service which I do think Viva's defensive unit is largely doing here.

With Figo and Nedved out wide, I think game will have sajeev's side largely being reactive with the 442 diamond falling back to 5-2-1-2 (3-4-1-2). So it basically comes down to, as anto says, if you believe sajeev's side can withstand the threat from Batigol, Figo, Nedved, Scholes and hurt the opposition on counter. That sounds pretty good until you remember that Viva has at least 4 players always staying back in his 2CBs, RB and Dunga, and even Keane many times, to starve off any counters.

Well, if we're just going to make up shit on what people have been instructed....

We've been clear Amoros attacks to offer width on that side and keep Breitner busy. It's not for you to say he won't do it.

Davids-Seedorf aren't providing cover out wide, Marquez is (directly or indirectly by dropping and "covering the coverer"). Be careful what you assume based on diamonds with a Pirlo at the base. They do however push out to the flanks if convenient when we are in possession (e.g. Seedorf/Rivaldo running into the space left behind by Breitner).

 

[antohan]

Like, in general? Restricting myself to the modern players who I've actually seen more then the odd game and off the top of my head: Sammer, Hierro, Busquets, Makelele, Mascherano, Deschamps, Lahm and De Rossi. Then there's guys who had great peaks (like Marquez) like Javi Martinez and Matic in recent years (and this is on peak, yes?). And then probably some CB's you think would thrive in that role, as the above are mostly DM's.

Marquez might be the best long passer out of those guys (though Hierro was pretty strong), but I think you're going a bit over the top.

I said out of those left in the draft, although I disagree with half of those. Some aren't even defenders for starters so can hardly drop as 3rd CBs.

Hierro is the only one comparable but he was nowhere near as mobile as Marquez. I don't want to think what would have happened to Real leaving Hierro as the last line of defence unsupported. Marquez pulled that off week in week out, and here he is not even asked to do that but cover the gaps.

 

[antohan]

Done

You now cut off the first paragraph.

 

[antohan]

Yeah. Again, he showed for Mexico that he can play this role but let's not forget that he did concede that decisive penalty against Robben.

This is players at peak, not has beens retired in MLS.

 

[antohan]

Because many people see Dunga as one half of one of the best defensive partnerships to feature in a tournament in Dunga-Silva.

The other half being the one better suited to this job.

Anyhow, it seems sajeev can't get on the thread and I'm going finished.

feck AMing, let alone when matchday scan voters will settle this. Poor choice by Sajeev to play this today.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

@antohan go back to your wife

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

The other half being the one better suited to this job.

Anyhow, it seems sajeev can't get on the thread and I'm going finished.

feck AMing, let alone when matchday scan voters will settle this. Poor choice by Sajeev to play this today.

ah... It's still half time and it's a draw.

 

[antohan]

Haven't even been able to read up. Locked in the toilet typing on a mini Samsung ffs.

All I can say is anyone basing a vote on Marquez is a giant bellend because he isn't even having to handle anyone in particular.

How can people keep ignoring the obvious mismatch between attacks and defences? Bati is shot here, so is Figo, and great as Nedved is he won't be as dangerous as Rivaldo, Henry andvan Basten against a very underwhelming trio of Vierch-Ciro-Dung who aren't even a good fit for the job they face individually, let alone as a unit.

Ta-ra, off to fish.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Haven't even been able to read up. Locked in the toilet typing on a mini Samsung ffs.

All I can say is anyone basing a vote on Marquez is a giant bellend because he isn't even having to handle anyone in particular.

How can people keep ignoring the obvious mismatch between attacks and defences? Bati is shot here, so is Figo, and great as Nedved is he won't be as dangerous as Rivaldo, Henry andvan Basten against a very underwhelming trio of Vierch-Ciro-Dung who aren't even a good fit for the job they face individually, let alone as a unit.

Ta-ra, off to fish.

Enjoy fishing

But I hardly agree. Vierchowod-Ciro is by no means underwhelming, and Figo is shot here? Really? By Bossis? I'd say he's against a very good defender but with my counter attacking setup he'll find plenty of space to run and these one on ones between them are bound to go for Figo's side plenty of times throughout the match, and when those happen it will have an enormous domino effect on that defense - Bossis left standing behind Figo after being beaten - Ruggeri/Marquez going for the cover leaving the latter with Batistuta - 2vs2 Batigol&Figo vs Ruggeri/Marquez? Yey - Goal.
Same goes for the other flank too, McGrath is bound to get beaten by Nedved on several occasions, causing a domino effect that will result in goals.

I can't reiterate it enough - Your team will probably score one with VB's wondergoals, but I'm confident I can outscore you. Keeping four men at the back when one of them is Marquez and non of the are GOAT defenders, against three amazing attackers like Figo-Nedved-Batistuta, with so much room to operate in and use their speed to their advantage is bound to have me scoring goals. lets not forget! THIS IS PRIME FIGO and PRIME BATISTUTA, give them room and they will take advantage of it over 90 minutes, and I'll definitely score 2-3 goals here.

 

[MJJ]

Haven't even been able to read up. Locked in the toilet typing on a mini Samsung ffs.

All I can say is anyone basing a vote on Marquez is a giant bellend because he isn't even having to handle anyone in particular.

How can people keep ignoring the obvious mismatch between attacks and defences? Bati is shot here, so is Figo, and great as Nedved is he won't be as dangerous as Rivaldo, Henry andvan Basten against a very underwhelming trio of Vierch-Ciro-Dung who aren't even a good fit for the job they face individually, let alone as a unit.

Ta-ra, off to fish.

 

[MDFC Manager]

I don't know about everyone else but I'm really disappointed that Marquez and Dunga are even being played here. Both the midfield duos of Scholes-Keane and Davids-Seedorf are more than capable of doing it all by themselves.

 

[crappycraperson]

Haven't even been able to read up. Locked in the toilet typing on a mini Samsung ffs.

All I can say is anyone basing a vote on Marquez is a giant bellend because he isn't even having to handle anyone in particular.

How can people keep ignoring the obvious mismatch between attacks and defences? Bati is shot here, so is Figo, and great as Nedved is he won't be as dangerous as Rivaldo, Henry andvan Basten against a very underwhelming trio of Vierch-Ciro-Dung who aren't even a good fit for the job they face individually, let alone as a unit.

Ta-ra, off to fish.

Oh noes. People don't agree with 100% of what I say and they must be bellends.

Always amuses me how much better of a bellend you make out of yourself in these draft threads.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I don't know about everyone else but I'm really disappointed that Marquez and Dunga are even being played here. Both the midfield duos of Scholes-Keane and Davids-Seedorf are more than capable of doing it all by themselves.

I was planning to start a 4-4-2 looking like this:

Peruzzi
Berthold Ferrara Vierchowod Breitner
Figo -- Scholes Keane -- Nedved
Batistuta Crespo​

But with 3 players in that calibre of Sajeev's attack, whom non of them will do any defending, playing a 4-4-2 is suicide and I had to add that defensive twist.

 

[MJJ]

Oh noes. People don't agree with 100% of what I say and they must be bellends.

Always amuses me how much better of a bellend you make out of yourself in these draft threads.

Too harsh dude, too harsh.

 

[crappycraperson]

Too harsh dude, too harsh.

Its garbage. I was very bitter when I lost to you in manager draft but I did not go about calling people who voted against my team for any reason bellends

 

[Fergus' son]

He's right though.

 

[crappycraperson]

Sajeev says

Just let Viva know that if my defenders aren't GOATs capable of managing his attack, then his defence might as well pack it in and go home, since individually they are no where near the class of the attackers they are facing and also not as good as my defenders.

Also he can't keep talking about Marquez with Dunga where he is in his set-up.

Also @crappy, by aggressive, i meant as a midfield both Keane & Scholes were about making things happen rather than control

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I really love you crappy. You speak so straightforward its superb. I've had my fair share of dissing managers when I started but some players can't seem to lose fairly and rather talk plenty of shit all around and flood the match thread and earn votes that way. I guess its legit because its part of the game but sometimes it really is annoying facing someone like it.
I don't mind nowadays though. I know my team is better here and if I lose because anto is a better manager than I am in that manner, so be it

 

[crappycraperson]

He's right though.

He isn't. Marquez has a critical role in sajeev team as him dropping back into the defense allows either cb to cover the full backs. Or he could be one who takes on nedved if he moves to middle. To say you can't vote against sajeev iglf u think Marquez is a weak link is non sense

 

[Fergus' son]

But he isn't a weak link, there isn't much between him and Dunga.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Enjoy fishing

But I hardly agree. Vierchowod-Ciro is by no means underwhelming, and Figo is shot here? Really? By Bossis? I'd say he's against a very good defender but with my counter attacking setup he'll find plenty of space to run and these one on ones between them are bound to go for Figo's side plenty of times throughout the match, and when those happen it will have an enormous domino effect on that defense - Bossis left standing behind Figo after being beaten - Ruggeri/Marquez going for the cover leaving the latter with Batistuta - 2vs2 Batigol&Figo vs Ruggeri/Marquez? Yey - Goal.
Same goes for the other flank too, McGrath is bound to get beaten by Nedved on several occasions, causing a domino effect that will result in goals.

I can't reiterate it enough - Your team will probably score one with VB's wondergoals, but I'm confident I can outscore you. Keeping four men at the back when one of them is Marquez and non of the are GOAT defenders, against three amazing attackers like Figo-Nedved-Batistuta, with so much room to operate in and use their speed to their advantage is bound to have me scoring goals. lets not forget! THIS IS PRIME FIGO and PRIME BATISTUTA, give them room and they will take advantage of it over 90 minutes, and I'll definitely score 2-3 goals here.

Anybody claiming Ferrara and Vierchowod are underwhelming are just selling an agenda. They already proved on their way to a Champions League title that they could play great together and that was a 37 year old version of Vierchowod who was nearly a decade away from his peak. Ferrara and Vierchowod would be a brilliant pair, not far below the very top ranked ones at all.

 

[crappycraperson]

But he isn't a weak link, there isn't much between him and Dunga.

That's down to how one personally rates either player.