I'd agree with that, some judge him on his Dortmund days. I judge him on his time at United where he just hasn't even good enough.
Shinji Kagawa
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It's clear that some will never rate him for what he does and will think he's not cut out for a top club. That's fine with me. If you don't rate him, then so be it.
I see Kagawa as someone who makes a team better. He creates more options, controls the pace of the game, and makes a team more dangerous on the attack. He's not one who can create individual moments of magic or carry teams on his back, but he does make a team perform better. For this reason, he can be useful to any top club (whether they need him is another story).
I see Kagawa as someone who makes a team better. He creates more options, controls the pace of the game, and makes a team more dangerous on the attack. He's not one who can create individual moments of magic or carry teams on his back, but he does make a team perform better. For this reason, he can be useful to any top club (whether they need him is another story).
But do you think he always makes the team better, or only when others are already performing well?
He makes the team more fluid, provides other options, and improves the team's chance creation, but if the other players themselves aren't doing well (final ball isn't good, strikers missing chances, sluggish performances, etc.), then a good result won't be a guarantee.
For example, in Japan's match against Greece, Japan were more dangerous on the attack when Kagawa came on. Before he came on, they were unable to keep the ball in the middle and found it difficult to create good chances. However, when Kagawa came on, he improved the team's ability to keep the ball in the middle and made the full backs even more dangerous. Japan's best chances were created when Kagawa was in the team. However, that wasn't enough as Japan didn't play on the ground, the strikers were poor, and Honda was also poor in midfield.
Interesting. Do you think he does enough though, when the team isn't playing well, to justify inclusion? Personally, I don't. As I was saying earlier, I want a player who will come in, demand to get on the ball and drag the team, kicking and screaming through a game when they're not playing well. He doesn't do that, in my opinion. He's a tidy player, when things are going well. He'll make simple balls and move around a bit. I think there are a few positions where a team like United, who have ideas of winning big things, cannot have passengers. They need players who make things happen. Kagawa is a passenger more often than not, in my opinion.
That depends on the how Kagawa does. If his movement is too reserved, he loses the ball sloppily, the team's pace is slow, and we don't get more goalscoring opportunities, then his inclusion isn't justified. His matches against Hull and Southampton along with his performance against Cote d'Ivoire would be poor performances in my eyes.
Well obviously it depends on how he does. What I meant really was, do you think he deserved inclusion when team wasn't playing well this past two seasons? Because in my opinion on the majority of those games he was at best a passenger and at worst a downright liability. I just don't see this world class ability that some see. But hopefully shinji with help from Louis will have me eating my words next year.
Yes, I believe he deserved inclusion. He did what I wanted and expected him to do to this club: have us play fluid, free-flowing football at a faster pace. Given our setups in the last 2 seasons, he improved our pace, made us more fluid, and provided the others with more options, though he isn't enough to transform us into Borussia Dortmund or the Man. Utd. of old.
Ah. OK. We'll have to agree to disagree on that so, I guess you're seeing something completely different to what I see when I watch shinji thus far for United.
The opinions on Kagawa are ridiculously divided
A few points that are important to remember:
1. He's still fairly young.
2. He's not injury prone.
3. He's exceptionally hard-working.
4. Unlike the likes of Welbeck and Cleverley, he has a proven past of brilliance, playing football the United of recent years could only dream of, even under Fergie.
Kagawa has generally been great whenever United has been great. It's no secret by now that he needs good football to play well. Much more so than others. But in return, he really delivers when the team plays good football. You can look at pretty much every good United game where Kagawa has been in the starting lineup. Has he ever been worse than the team average? No, he hasn't. In fact, he's been the standout performer(or one of them) at least 5-10 times since he came to United. That's why he once became POTM(twice in here, if I'm not mistaken).
Kagawa's had one season with injuries while adjusting to the PL, and one season under Moyes(seriously, we should ignore the performance of every United player that season, except for the once who did well). So far, we haven't been able to see him finish a full season under a decent coach. That's why the opinions are so divided.
However, I will say this: everything so far suggests that Kagawa will be an absolute star, as long as the team performs well and he's allowed consistent playtime. If we go an entire season where we have both of these things, and Kagawa stll remains a 6/10 or 7/10 player, then I will admit "defeat". He must have been one of those weird players who peak at age 23 then.
A few points that are important to remember:
1. He's still fairly young.
2. He's not injury prone.
3. He's exceptionally hard-working.
4. Unlike the likes of Welbeck and Cleverley, he has a proven past of brilliance, playing football the United of recent years could only dream of, even under Fergie.
Kagawa has generally been great whenever United has been great. It's no secret by now that he needs good football to play well. Much more so than others. But in return, he really delivers when the team plays good football. You can look at pretty much every good United game where Kagawa has been in the starting lineup. Has he ever been worse than the team average? No, he hasn't. In fact, he's been the standout performer(or one of them) at least 5-10 times since he came to United. That's why he once became POTM(twice in here, if I'm not mistaken).
Kagawa's had one season with injuries while adjusting to the PL, and one season under Moyes(seriously, we should ignore the performance of every United player that season, except for the once who did well). So far, we haven't been able to see him finish a full season under a decent coach. That's why the opinions are so divided.
However, I will say this: everything so far suggests that Kagawa will be an absolute star, as long as the team performs well and he's allowed consistent playtime. If we go an entire season where we have both of these things, and Kagawa stll remains a 6/10 or 7/10 player, then I will admit "defeat". He must have been one of those weird players who peak at age 23 then.
That's where those of us who think he's overrated disagree. I think numerous times when the team has played well with him in it he has been distinctly average. He's had about two standout games in my opinion. More often than not, he's average. It's hilarious. Team plays well when he's in it and it's because he makes it more fluid. When they play badly, is everyone else's fault, not his.The opinions on Kagawa are ridiculously divided
A few points that are important to remember:
1. He's still fairly young.
2. He's not injury prone.
3. He's exceptionally hard-working.
4. Unlike the likes of Welbeck and Cleverley, he has a proven past of brilliance, playing football the United of recent years could only dream of, even under Fergie.
Kagawa has generally been great whenever United has been great. It's no secret by now that he needs good football to play well. Much more so than others. But in return, he really delivers when the team plays good football. You can look at pretty much every good United game where Kagawa has been in the starting lineup. Has he ever been worse than the team average? No, he hasn't. In fact, he's been the standout performer(or one of them) at least 5-10 times since he came to United. That's why he once became POTM(twice in here, if I'm not mistaken).
Kagawa's had one season with injuries while adjusting to the PL, and one season under Moyes(seriously, we should ignore the performance of every United player that season, except for the once who did well). So far, we haven't been able to see him finish a full season under a decent coach. That's why the opinions are so divided.
However, I will say this: everything so far suggests that Kagawa will be an absolute star, as long as the team performs well and he's allowed consistent playtime. If we go an entire season where we have both of these things, and Kagawa stll remains a 6/10 or 7/10 player, then I will admit "defeat". He must have been one of those weird players who peak at age 23 then.
Even me as one of his biggest fans on here can't be too arsed to defend him anymore... He's an excellent player on form and confident but he doesn't seem to have the mentality for a club the size of United. Goes missing too often. Also with Mata being a better player, where is he going to play if he's first choice? I'd rather see pace and trickery on the wing so would prefer if we sign Sanchez and play him and Nani or Januzaj on the wings. I'd rather us sign Pjanic too for midfield.
Hope he does well and finds a role, whether it is here or somewhere else, where he can shine, but there's simply no space for him to be first choice with Mata at the club.
Hope he does well and finds a role, whether it is here or somewhere else, where he can shine, but there's simply no space for him to be first choice with Mata at the club.
Could you give a few examples?
I'm talking about strong team performances, when the team average was a solid 7(+). Not just games we've won. It's possible to win games while playing like crap.
To be perfectly honest with you, I don't recall him having absolutely any outstanding games this season. He had a decent second half against Swansea, but januzaj was the main man there (along with early goal) but other than that I'm struggling to think of a game he excelled in. So, I'd say basically all the games he played in. Actually be was also good against leverkusen. I'm sure you'll give me loads of games where you think he was amazing, that his off the ball movement etc was the reason we were so fluid. I've even seem someone in this thread during the season claim his clever hand signals in one game were what upped the teams performance. And it's fair enough, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I just don't personally feel he has been effective. I feel the lack of games he's getting is not because of a witch hunt or because Rooney, rvp, Carrick etc weren't on the mighty kagawa wavelength but actually are because he simply hasn't done enough. I don't really think it's an argument that has much merit to be honest, we both simply have our opinions. We'll see what happens when Louis comes in and hopefully he gets something out of him, because God knows we need some players to stand up and be counted. Do I honestly believe kagawa is the man for that? No, given that even his most ardent fan admits he needs an entire team to be playing well before he's effective. Do I hope he's the man for it? Hell yes, he is our player after all.
He's flattered to deceive since joining United. But hey, he looks nimble, has a good first touch and so that's fine, few easy passes here and there and oh, what a great game he's had. I watched Kagawa at Dortmund and he was a good player there, a link man, he was never one to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and make things happen though. Since he moved to United, he's been underwhelming and playing on the wing has absolute nothing/or little to do with it, he plays there a lot for Japan. He gets so much leeway among United fans its ludicrous.
I can think of several other games where Kagawa was one of our standout performers this season.
- The two games at the end of the season where he and Mata bossed things completely(vs Newcastle and another team).
- The Sociedad game(s).
- The Bayern game(s)(it's mainly because of this performance that he became POTM April(or March, I don't remember which) in this forum).
And now I didn't include the Arsenal game, where most people in here thoght he was great(though I think he was decent at best). So we're looking at 5-8 games where he was the best player or one of the best players. And that's in his worst season ever, with inconsistent playtime and Moyes' dinosaur football.
You see why some of us are willing to give Kagawa the benefit of the doubt now?
Even after two seasons of not cementing a place in the team?
He did cement his place in the team under Fergie. He started 73% of the PL and CL games when he wasn't injured. Moyes didn't rate Kagawa. Who do you trust more: Fergie or Moyes? Every coach up until Moyes has rated Kagawa very highly and let him play regularly. Because they could all see the longterm benefits. Moyes couldn't, but then again he is a complete failure so....
But I'm off to work :P
In his time at United, he simply hasn't shown anything to suggest that he'll ever suit our style of play, or for that matter, adapt to it. Now, there has been a solid argument that Valencia flying in shit crosses around 100 times a half doesn't do wonders for a player like him, but unlike a player like Mata, he's failed show his quality when things aren't neatly set up for him to thrive. That's not good at all really.
You can make excuses for him all you like and I do love watching him play, but the truth is he's been incredibly disappointing so far in his career here.
Kagawa isn't leaving and Van Gaal won't sell him. I can see his performances improving a lot under Van Gaal.
He's been a massive let down because you can see the odd moment here and there where he does something great and you know he does have a lot of talent. In general though he seems to do very very little and if he went this Summer I wouldn't be too upset about it.
I think he'll get one more season under Van Gaal, it really is make or break for him though.
I think he'll get one more season under Van Gaal, it really is make or break for him though.
I think it's make or break for everyone who stays this season, because we'll have Van Gaal who'll sell under performing players.
I've ignored your posts in the last few pages because it's clear that you're distorting facts, but this is a ridiculous argument. You mentioned that you have not watched Japan a lot, yet you're making posts like this. If you watched them last year, you would see why they were great to watch. And even leading up the World Cup, they looked much better than the drivel they produced against Ivory Coast and Greece. Cross, cross, cross...
Rooney outperformed Kagawa last season in a system that suits him. Kagawa didn't play much as a #10, and when he did, he produced good/very good performances...
It is nonsense. In what world is Januzaj a better #10? He struggled to play in that role for us, bar one game against Norwich. He played little in that role and still has lots to improve on. There's no doubt that he'll end up as the better #10 and player. However, it's too much and desperate to suggest he's better.
We're not going to agree on this, so I'll leave it at that.
I've never blamed Moyes solely for Kagawa failing last season. Of course he did play a massive part, and that shouldn't be understated. But I've always maintained that it's due to a couple of reasons. I even cited Kagawa failing to perform at a higher level as one of the reasons for his "failure", so let's not pretend that I'm a fan of his because I'm far from that. Finally, his performances at Borussia Dortmund aren't the exception because he produced similar performances for us - consistently - towards the end of last season, for example.
I do see why some of you are willing to give Kagawa the benefit of the doubt. Absolutely I know why. I've always known why - as a lot of ye will come on here and make your arguments for him. And that's fair enough. Ye see things differently than I, and some others do. Knowing why ye give him the benefit of the doubt, however, is different to believing you're right to do so.
I saw those same games as ye, and I didn't think he was that good in those games to be honest. Just my opinion. I don't think he gives us enough. Tidy passing simply isn't enough for me, as I've said before. Hopefully he'll up it next season.
I think we've said all we can say on this one, you've your opinion, I've mine, neither will convince the other. Way it goes sometimes.
Rooney has been an absolutely integral member of the United team since he joined. Throughout that time, he has played a number of positions, in a number of systems. He has ALWAYS been one of our best players, and ALWAYS influenced things.
Kagawa, as all his fans admit, suits one system. One position. One system.
I think the signing of mata and the emergence of januzaj means the best thing for everyone is too sell kagawa this summer, I don't see him getting many games in his favourite position ahead of Rooney or mata as they both offer more goals and assists. He could play wide but he isn't as effective there and if we try to play him with RVP, mata and Rooney I don't think there is enough pace in the team and it allows teams to play with a high line and put pressure on our midfield and defence.
I am not distorting anything, i just don't have kagawa-driven agenda that's all. If he plays good, i'll praise him. If he does not, i don't look for some excuses like some of the people here.
I've said here already that asia groups are just very weak and friendly matches are not a real games, if you want a proof of that, just look at Englands friendly games results. Draw with Brazil, win over Spain etc. I've said from the start that Japan team is overrated and i don't believe it can produce flairish football in competitive games, and it surely looks i was right. I've seen them last year at Conf Cup, they had an okay game with Italy, but were comfortably the worst in their group. At WC they are what they are.
I also told i think that manager does not regard Kagawa as a vital player, a player he want's to built a team around, that why number 10 position in the center is given to Honda. And i think it has something to do with a fact, that Honda is more of a goal threat than Kagawa is. Some other user started to defend Kagawa, as always, saying that it's just Honda can't play on the wing, and manager wants to have them both. But what do we see in the real life? Exactly, Kagawa was dropped for second game. Which proves my point.
here we go again
@MoneyMay been workin the bag in the off season! Eye of the tiger!
Exactly. He's not a superstar player. He's a very good player and if we use him correctly, he can be a great player for us. If LvG decides to use a system that suits him, then he has a chance to flourish. If LvG chooses a system that doesn't suit him, then I guess it would be better to offload him.
This. Kagawa will never be a Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, RvP or Robben, but he will help the whole team play better football. I have no doubt LvG will want to keep Shinji and make him play better football at United.
The issue, at least fort much of last season was that United didn't play well at all. I saw from time to time Kagawa trying to create something by passing the ball and run into space just to see the ball played backwards or sideways. I honestly believe that if more of the Uniteitd players would hi the ball, then move quickly into space, not only would it resoult in more goals and chances, but also be more entertaining as a resoult.
Most fans seem to have forgotten the importance of passing, then moving, but Kagawa does this quite often...
Most fans seem to have forgotten the importance of passing, then moving, but Kagawa does this quite often...
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Looks like whole load of typical shinji pointless 5 yard sideways or backwards passes.
I'd sell him. We have Mata now and he really doesn't turn up for the big games.
I'd give him one more season under Van Gaal. If one man can bring Kagawa back to his Dortmund best its Van Gaal.
Such a daft statement. Did you watch the game? 6 shots, 4 key passes(passes which lead directly to chances to shoot), ridiculous Xavi- levle passing percentage, highest amount of tackles(more than the defenders), 4 crosses/long balls.
He lost the ball often, which was his only negative of the day.
Lucky we don't have to see these brainless posts in the "currently cool" players threads as well.
You should probably stop watching football.
Thought he was pretty good today. Hugely disappointing World Cup for him in general, though. Anyway, his United future should rest on his United performances, not his Japan performances. I've been a huge fan since his Dortmund days and I'm not giving up on him yet. Hope LVG isn't either.
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