Should Mourinho bring in a new 'attacking coach'

[Shark]

The only teams to have scored more goals than us in the Prem are City and Liverpool. In the Champions League group stage we scored more goals than Barcelona and more goals than Juventus (teams who are walking their domestic leagues). Yet according to the armchair managers on here we're supposed to be clueless going forward. Beggars belief some times.

People saying we should score more are idiots. You don't get more points for scoring more goals in a game. 1-0 or 10-0, its still 3 points.

Even armchair managers aren’t completely blind. In fact, you don’t need to know very much about football at all to see there’s a lot of decision making and stagnant issues with this team going forward, regardless of goals. It baffles me how there are people that can’t just use their eyes and admit that. Maybe we do score enough goals, but would you put that down to us being adventurous and fluid going forward, or simply being clinical in taking chances, which is fantastic. Maybe what the fans want us a bit of both, which isn’t an outlandish ask given the attacking options we have at our disposal.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

You said we should play like this

Lukaku
Rashford Sanchez Mata

You spoke about Son Alli and Eriksen. That 3 is similar to Rashford, Lingard and Mata. Everyone will admit that.

Which is what we do at home (Lingard in for Sanchez for most of the season). We score just as much as Spurs and Liverpool at home and have a better record. We do set up like that already, so I don't get your post rambling about we should play like we did vs Palace, when we have done that all season.

We set up like that on paper, but we hardly always play like how I said. When we do, we often create chances and look pretty balanced. Fact is, we don't always do that.

Yes, we've scored just as much as Spurs and Liverpool, but we've created a lot less chances. Our attack is not as fluid as the aforementioned teams. Shouldn't have to bring out stats to prove that. You just have to watch them.

 

[haram]

We set up like that on paper, but we hardly always play like how I said. When we do, we often create chances and look pretty balanced. Fact is, we don't always do that.

Yes, we've scored just as much as Spurs and Liverpool, but we've created a lot less chances. Our attack is not as fluid as the aforementioned teams. Shouldn't have to bring out stats to prove that. You just have to watch them.

So now you’ve changed it to “we set up like that on paper”. We do play like that the majority games at home. Our home record is good for a reason.

Criticise our away form and us on the break and our different set up in these games. Criticising us for setting out how you want, whilst still having a better record than the attacking ‘Gods’ Spurs and Liverpool is just you not admitting you were wrong.

 

[#07]

We were the better side until Nani sending off. Could have won at Bernabeu.

We were better at home. We were not better away.

Yes we could’ve won in Madrid had Van Persie not fluffed his lines, it was no way reflective of the away leg though.

We went to Spain and we set up as we should have, given Jose’s Madrid was a very good attacking team.

 

[Minimalist]

Our home record is about par unless you believe we're supposed to be a pushover or something.

We've scored a whopping 6 more goals at home compared to the away matches. Hardly remarkable.

 

[haram]

Our home record is about par unless you believe we're supposed to be a pushover or something.

We've scored a whopping 6 more goals at home compared to the away matches. Hardly remarkable.

We’ve scored 2 less than Liverpool and the same amount as Spurs at home despite playing a game less. People want to complain about everything.

 

[Minimalist]

We’ve scored 2 less than Liverpool and the same amount as Spurs at home despite playing a game less. People want to complain about everything.

You're the one having a bitch at people pointing out the bleeding obvious.

Goals scored and how we get there (chance creation, good attacking play) is two different things. Many of us feel this side should be banging in many more goals with the players we've got.

 

[haram]

You're the one having a bitch at people pointing out the bleeding obvious.

Goals scored and how we get there (chance creation, good attacking play) is two different things. Many of us feel this side should be banging in many more goals with the players we've got.

Spurs front 4 is comparable if not better than ours. You’re deluded if you think when Liverpool and Spurs drop points at home they are still playing magical beautiful football.

 

[Kag]

Why do people watch football every week and simply point to numbers to validate some clearly biased assessment of our football?

Our attacking football is nowhere near good enough. It's disjointed, often boring and in recent months we've struggled to create chances, especially during first halves and certainly against tough opposition.

I don't really care that we've scored roughly the same as Spurs, Chelsea or Arsenal. I care about United and the attacking football is a huge problem. We recorded some fortunate 4-0 wins early in the season and that has certainly inflated that statistic, anyway.

Labelling those with critical assessments as 'armchair fans' really misses the point.

As for the OP, I'd say no. Mourinho's sides historically score lots of goals. He is capable of sorting this out himself, which is why it's all the more frustrating for me that we're so shite.

 

[Minimalist]

Spurs front 4 is comparable if not better than ours. You’re deluded if you think when Liverpool and Spurs drop points at home they are still playing magical beautiful football.

Spurs were underperforming though, especially early on? And Liverpool have shite defenders (pretty average midfield too)? What's dropped points got to do with how they play in the final third when they're on form. We're talking about the average performance and also the top performances shown this season from each team. United even at their best this season have looked clunky.

If you think United have produced attacking football at any time this season that's as good as the top level of Liverpool, Spurs or City, you're the fecking delusional one.

 

[haram]

Spurs were underperforming though, especially early on? And Liverpool have shite defenders (pretty average midfield too)? What's dropped points got to do with how they play in the final third when they're on form. We're talking about the average performance and also the top performances shown this season from each team. United even at their best this season have looked clunky.

If you think United have produced attacking football at any time this season that's as good as the top level of Liverpool, Spurs or City, you're the fecking delusional one.

I never claimed that. We have played well at home though. We have scored as many goals. We were using the set up the guy wanted us to use. It’s not actually a problem.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

So now you’ve changed it to “we set up like that on paper”. We do play like that the majority games at home. Our home record is good for a reason.

Criticise our away form and us on the break and our different set up in these games. Criticising us for setting out how you want, whilst still having a better record than the attacking ‘Gods’ Spurs and Liverpool is just you not admitting you were wrong.

Wow!

When you said, 'we've been doing it all season', I said 'no, not all the time'. Yes, we've played a 4231, with Rashford, Lingard and Mata, but we haven't always played with a player hugging the touchline. That's what I meant when I said 'on paper'.

Home or away, our attack is not as fluid as Spurs and Liverpool. Anyone would tell you that. If you can't see that then I don't know what else to say.

 

[haram]

Wow!

When you said, 'we've been doing it all season', I said 'no, not all the time'. Yes, we've played a 4231, with Rashford, Lingard and Mata, but we haven't always played with a player hugging the touchline. That's what I meant when I said 'on paper'.

Home or away, our attack is not as fluid as Spurs and Liverpool. Anyone would tell you that. If you can't see that then I don't know what else to say.

There has always been a clear difference between the left and right hand side of our attack. Mata plays a lot on the right for a reason. When we want to stretch a deep lying defence Rashford and Martial get wider. It has happened all season especially at home. I never claimed our attack is as fluid. It is still just as good as breaking teams down who sit deep which happens alot at Old Trafford.

 

[Ban]

We score many goals despite

Wow!

When you said, 'we've been doing it all season', I said 'no, not all the time'. Yes, we've played a 4231, with Rashford, Lingard and Mata, but we haven't always played with a player hugging the touchline. That's what I meant when I said 'on paper'.

Home or away, our attack is not as fluid as Spurs and Liverpool. Anyone would tell you that. If you can't see that then I don't know what else to say.

It's not as fluid but nevertheless we're doing pretty good.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

It's not as fluid but nevertheless we're doing pretty good.

We are. Not saying we're not, but the discussion is about Mourinho bringing in an attacking coach. Not just positions, but movement off the ball, attacking plays, etc.

 

[Claudio Salinas Ruiz]

Yes, we need to do something, because at the moment, as I and others have said, we look clueless when we go forward.

There's no shape, no cohesion. Everyone seems to want to do the same thing, hence why we see no balance.

If I were Mourinho, I would stick to the same kind of format we saw against Palace in the second half.

He brought on Rashford, who kept the width and stretched Palace. To me, it made us look at more dangerous and less predictable. We could use the width, or sometimes mix it up and go through the middle.

Mourinho recognised this and identified it in the post match conference saying, "and immediately he created dangerous situations and immediately brought to the side and opened more spaces between defenders where our attacking players could make runs and penetrate these gaps".

So, not only did Rashfod staying wide create space for himself and stretch palace, but as Jose said, he also "opened more spaces between defenders where our attacking players could make runs and penetrate these gaps", which made it easier for the likes of Lukaku, Pogba, Mata and co. to play within.

Going forward, we should stick with an out and out winger. Someone who stretches play like Sane for City. That, with a roaming wide man and a 10 that gets in behind the striker.

We finished the Palace game with:

Lukaku
Rashford Sanchez Mata

If/when we play a 4231, I'd like to see something like that. Obviously Martial can come in for Rashford and Lingard for Sanchez, but I'd like to see something like that. Width, a runner and a roaming playmaker.

As I've mentioned before, very similar to the way Spurs set up, with Son (width), Alli (runner) and Eriksen (roaming playmaker).

in agreement, when it is played by the bands and with fast and unbalancing players like rashford, Martial and Sanchez we create more occasions, and spaces so that Lukaku can be accommodated in the area, and even can be shot from outside, like Pogba and Matic. For this, I think that Sanchez's game side must be changed, the game on the left with Pogba becomes very predictable for the opponent, so it happened with Crystal Palace and Chelsea and at times against Sevilla by UCL.

 

[Adisa]

I am at a loss to how we can improve it tbh.
I am not sure Jose is really going to want an attacking coach.
To be honest, this thread is the first time I've heard of one.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

I asked before and nobody answered:

Do attacking coaches actually exist? If so, which teams have one and who are these attacking coaches?

Could an attacking coach work in such a way that doesn’t completely contradict the way the manager wants the team to play?

 

[Boycott]

Formations and set-ups are overstated. The best teams to watch are the ones who have quick rotation of positions and of course the ball. Formations are in basic terms just a starting point. A 4-2-3-1 on paper can be interpreted as 4-4-2 or 3-4-3 depending on positional heat-maps. You build that synergy and patterns of play through rigorous repetition. Now some managers emphasise it more than others. Some emphasise defensive positional play more. The point is just saying "change the formation" won't change everything instantly.

Also if you're going to judge attacking play based on goal tally you may as well not watch the game. Stick to livescore. Because the manner of how goals come about, and how many chances determine attacking play for me and others in here - the process is just as important as the outcome. Football is expensive and you pay your money to go to games and hope for a good spectacle.

People won't hesitate to slate the defenders in spite of the good goal conceded tally because you watch the games and see De Gea save them often. Can't pick and choose when to apply that line of thought.

 

[Adebesi]

I asked before and nobody answered:

Do attacking coaches actually exist? If so, which teams have one and who are these attacking coaches?

Could an attacking coach work in such a way that doesn’t completely contradict the way the manager wants the team to play?

I hadn't seen this thread and asked this question in another one.

As far as I know, no. I can't think of any examples of managers hiring attacking coaches. Maybe someone will come along and prove me wrong, but I doubt it. It'd be like having a plumber who hired an assistant to help him because he's not very good with spanners.

 

[haram]

I read a book about his time at Real and the players said it was incredibly basic what they were taught and that whilst he was excellent at coaching counter attacking football when it came to facing teams which park the bus.. he was clueless.

When teams park the bus at OT now we break them down, so what now? I’m aware this post was made in April 2017 but we have clearly improved.

The problem now is building from deep positions against a press and countering away from home. Mourinho has done it before and will fix it here.

 

[Raees]

When teams park the bus at OT now we break them down, so what now? I’m aware this post was made in April 2017 but we have clearly improved.

The problem now is building from deep positions against a press and countering away from home. Mourinho has done it before and will fix it here.

I genuinely think our attacking play still looks heavily undercooked and it looks under coached. To the naked eye anyone can see that we just don't look cohesive and fluid in attack and it is down to moments of individual magic or random moves off the cuff that lead to our goals.

What Jose still has is an eye for knowing how to change things up and spotting a weakness in oppositions set up and his changes have usually been good. But our attack is still imo the worst coached out of the top 4.

@Adebesi @Cliche Guevara

Unlike Rugby which has specialised coaches for every position - in football we employ more generalists but even under the umbrella term of 'first team coaches' .. there is a splitting up of duties in terms of people's strengths. Though you do get the occasional specialisation and someone gets mentioned as working with the 'strikers'. So you'll get someone who is reknowned more for their defensive drills and others known for their attacking drills and some who are all rounders. Just like with managers who are known more for their attacking strategies or defensive tactics and people in between. Many managers were coaches first so would have had to run the attacking or defending drills.. Mourinho for instance was highly praised by LVG for his ability to run elite defensive drills in his formative years as a coach and he would entrust him to take first team sessions. In contrast Brendan Rodgers was praised for his attacking sessions.

So a new first team coach well known for his attacking drills is what I think would be a nice addition to the coaching staff. How one goes about looking for such a coach I have no idea in the real world .. in FM they rate coaches based on their attacking/defensive coaching skills, but how they get that info I do not know but if there is a real life way of being able to assess that and have that info on hand, then great - we could do with a fresh face in the coaching set up who takes our attacking football to the next level.

 

[Adebesi]

I genuinely think our attacking play still looks heavily undercooked and it looks under coached. To the naked eye anyone can see that we just don't look cohesive and fluid in attack and it is down to moments of individual magic or random moves off the cuff that lead to our goals.

What Jose still has is an eye for knowing how to change things up and spotting a weakness in oppositions set up and his changes have usually been good. But our attack is still imo the worst coached out of the top 4.

@Adebesi @Cliche Guevara

Unlike Rugby which has specialised coaches for every position - in football we employ more generalists but even under the umbrella term of 'first team coaches' .. there is a splitting up of duties in terms of people's strengths. Though you do get the occasional specialisation and someone gets mentioned as working with the 'strikers'. So you'll get someone who is reknowned more for their defensive drills and others known for their attacking drills and some who are all rounders. Just like with managers who are known more for their attacking strategies or defensive tactics and people in between. Many managers were coaches first so would have had to run the attacking or defending drills.. Mourinho for instance was highly praised by LVG for his ability to run elite defensive drills in his formative years as a coach and he would entrust him to take first team sessions. In contrast Brendan Rodgers was praised for his attacking sessions.

So a new first team coach well known for his attacking drills is what I think would be a nice addition to the coaching staff. How one goes about looking for such a coach I have no idea in the real world .. in FM they rate coaches based on their attacking/defensive coaching skills, but how they get that info I do not know but if there is a real life way of being able to assess that and have that info on hand, then great - we could do with a fresh face in the coaching set up who takes our attacking football to the next level.

Would that mean sacking or demoting Rui Faria? Because if so I dont think it will happen.

(This was actually the conversation I had in mind when I created the Rui Faria thread but it didnt really develop that way.)

 

[haram]

I genuinely think our attacking play still looks heavily undercooked and it looks under coached. To the naked eye anyone can see that we just don't look cohesive and fluid in attack and it is down to moments of individual magic or random moves off the cuff that lead to our goals.

You said the Real players said Mourinho was clueless when it came to breaking down teams who park the bus. That clearly isn’t the case with this United team.

 

[Adebesi]

You said the Real players said Mourinho was clueless when it came to breaking down teams who park the bus. That clearly isn’t the case with this United team.

Was it the case with that Real Madrid team? The one that broke goal scoring records?

I guess the counter argument is: "Yeah but they had Ronaldo." But not sure that's really a good enough answer.

 

[sp_107]

We don't have traditional wingers and we don't have best full backs!!! End of the story !!

With out these it's difficult to play attacking football!!

Alexis, Martial, Mata, Rashford, Lingard, they all lke to play in middle and not natural wingers !!


Almost 500 millions in last 5 years and it's sad that we don't have proper wingers and full backs and a proper balanced central midfield system !!

 

[Raees]

Would that mean sacking or demoting Rui Faria? Because if so I dont think it will happen.

(This was actually the conversation I had in mind when I created the Rui Faria thread but it didnt really develop that way.)

No need to sack him or demote him, just add a fellow first team coach to the overall unit.

 

[Raees]

You said the Real players said Mourinho was clueless when it came to breaking down teams who park the bus. That clearly isn’t the case with this United team.

Parking the bus is not an issue this United side faces because most teams think they can take us on in contrast to that Real side.

 

[Adebesi]

No need to sack him or demote him, just add a fellow first team coach to the overall unit.

Not sure it works like that, in practice. Maybe youre right, Im no expert. But my instinctive response to that is "too many cooks spoils the broth." I just think it would end up de facto demoting Faria and causing problems. Its obviously not the same, but reminds me of Evans and Houllier at Liverpool. Assistants are different to managers but on the other hand we are talking about someone being given responsibility for how we attack. That is pretty fundamental. It seems a stretch to me that anyone other than the manager himself could be given that kind of responsibility. But if it was, it would have to be (IMO) an assistant, one who was second only to the manager and had both an excellent relationship with the manager and pretty much unrivaled authority as second in command.

 

[Kostov]

We don't have traditional wingers and we don't have best full backs!!! End of the story !!

With out these it's difficult to play attaching football!!

Alexis, Martial, Mata, Rashford, Lingard, they all lke to play in middle and not natural wingers !!


Almost 500 millions in last 5 years and it's sad that we don't have proper wingers and full backs and a proper balanced central midfield system !!

No matter how simple and bizarre this may seem to some, I think it's hurting our attack more than we think. Especially a proper quality RW will make our attacking play much better.

 

[haram]

Parking the bus is not an issue this United side faces because most teams think they can take us on in contrast to that Real side.

When teams try to sit deep against us it doesn’t really work. That’s why our home record is good.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

I’ll be honest I’m not a massive Jose fan, nor do I particularly like the way we play. I just question a lot of the criticism.

There are some things that do frustrate me, though. I don’t think we flood the box enough, we don’t score enough from cut-backs, we rarely have someone coming in at the far post to finish and we don’t see the kind of one-touch stuff around the D and into the box to score that we used to. I love seeing all those things.

I do believe the players have to take a fair bit of responsibility. Players like Martial, Rashford and Lingard are still developing. Even Lukaku is going through a learning process. Sanchez is now having to be integrated against that backdrop.

Hopefully by the start of next season there will be more maturity, consistency and understanding amongst the front men. We need to work out the best system for who we have and stick to it.

I have to say I think we are also short of a right-winger, or an attacking right-back who can sling in dangerous crosses.

Overall I think there’s cause for some optimism as potentially the team can develop into an effective, exciting, machine once it all starts to click and the players start peaking.

There are definitely some questions around the direction we’re heading, though, I understand that. If we lived in a world where the club confirm who we are signing in the summer, that might go a long way to illustrate if we’re finally seeing the completion of the jigsaw, or whether we’re scrambling around hoping something sticks.

 

[Minimalist]

When teams try to sit deep against us it doesn’t really work. That’s why our home record is good.

Sevilla in our own stadium hardly parked the bus tonight did they? Only 3 shots on target all match for United.

Now what? Still a load of bollocks you reckon?

 

[haram]

Sevilla in our own stadium hardly parked the bus tonight did they? Only 3 shots on target all match for United.

Now what? Still a load of bollocks you reckon?

Was you waiting for us to lose at home to quote this?

 

[Skills]

How can you bring in attacking coach? Surely any top team spends a lot more time attacking than defending, so should be spending a lot more time coaching their attack than defence?

It sounds like your suggesting a new manager who will do the vast majority of coaching (attack) and then demote Mourinho to be the defensive coach.

 

[Minimalist]

Was you waiting for us to lose at home to quote this?

Your post was only on Friday. Didn't have to wait long did I?

How about your opinion on that great performance last night, in particular 3 shots on target for a team chasing (needing) goals.

 

[haram]

Your post was only on Friday. Didn't have to wait long did I?

How about your opinion on that great performance last night, in particular 3 shots on target for a team chasing (needing) goals.

I said it wasn’t good enough. That doesn’t mean we have an inherent problem at home.