Should we just accept that this is Arsenal's level?

[Fortitude]

I thought this might be better as its own topic because it's a talking point in its own right.

Arsenal have always been judged as a Big 4 club with pedigree. It's been a long time since the general status quo has been disrupted, longer than my lifetime, anyway, but now? They really are a poor side, one you can't think of as an automatic CL qualifier any longer. The FA Cup is about the highpoint of a season they can hope for now, and even that is dependent on how many of the top dogs they avoid.

For years, we've judged them in relation to what 'Arsenal' represent as the giants of English football they've pretty much always been, but is it time that stopped?

If you consider that the performance they put on tonight is actually their level, a better sense of perspective about them is gleaned.

True of false?

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

The teams around them have gotten better and hired better managers. That's been key in their decline.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

With how Arsenal is starting to look we may need to retire the whole "top 6" term.

 

[Ravelation]

I thought this might be better as its own topic because it's a talking point in its own right.

Arsenal have always been judged as a Big 4 club with pedigree. It's been a long time since the general status quo has been disrupted, longer than my lifetime, anyway, but now? They really are a poor side, one you can't think of as an automatic CL qualifier any longer. The FA Cup is about the highpoint of a season they can hope for now, and even that is dependent on how many of the top dogs they avoid.

For years, we've judged them in relation to what 'Arsenal' represent as the giants of English football they've pretty much always been, but is it time that stopped?

If you consider that the performance they put on tonight is actually their level, a better sense of perspective about them is gleaned.

True of false?

They are a fringe team, capable of finishing top 4, but equally capable of finishing outside it, much like I beleive Tottenham will revert to being.

 

[Paxi]

They have been regressing steadily for past decade and they've finally bottomed out. Until Wenger and Kroenke goes it'll be more of the same. Good times.

 

[Sky1981]

They did well to get into the finals. Losing against city isn't a sin.

Now its 6 team for top 4, im sure they'll be there or therebouts next year under wenger. Under any manager with the same budget though... it could have been uglier than this.

Nobody is too big for a catastropic season of finishing in midtable these days. Liverpool Chelsea united has recently finished outside top 4.

 

[krazyrobus]

Income wise are they not a giant and punching under their weight? I believe at the very least they earn more than Liverpool or Tottenham.

 

[Kostur]

They've missed Miki today.
lol

 

[spiriticon]

I haven't been scared of Arsenal as a team since Patrick Vieira left. That was a LONG time ago.

 

[VP89]

They've missed Miki today.
lol

you didn't need to. They're already down ffs

 

[SirAF]

Yes.

 

[Robbie Boy]

They've missed Miki today.
lol

 

[adexkola]

I find the histrionics over Arsenal's "state" tiring. Especially when the debate descends into a discussion on cojones, rah-rah, and whatever nonsense comes out of armchair psychology weekly.

They have problems no doubt. They've also won 3 FA cups in the last 4 seasons. More than Liverpool and Spurs.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I find the histrionics over Arsenal's "state" tiring. Especially when the debate descends into a discussion on cojones, rah-rah, and whatever nonsense comes out of armchair psychology weekly.

They have problems no doubt. They've also won 3 FA cups in the last 4 seasons. More than Liverpool and Spurs.

It is really annoying that "mentality" and such dominates the discussion with Arsenal. Their issue is they lack the quality of the other top clubs.

 

[el3mel]

Yes. They have been scrapping 4th place for some years now it was inevitable they'll finally fall like this. I don't think they'll play in CL any time soon with all the 5 other teams are up their gear while Arsenal have a terrible squad (except attack). Even if Wenger leaves now, they'll still need minimum 3 years of rebuilding this shite.

 

[Infordin]

It is really annoying that "mentality" and such dominates the discussion with Arsenal. Their issue is they lack the quality of the other top clubs.

I don't think that Liverpool is really a better team than Arsenal (man for man), Klopp is just better than Wenger.

 

[ZAGREB RED]

Gary Neville certainly didn't hold back in his assessment of them today, thought he was pretty spot on.

 

[bosnian_red]

6th is their level right now, yes. They are however getting worse every year instead of better. And losing 3-0 in a cup final isn't anyone's level. It's just putting in a shite performance.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I don't think that Liverpool is really a better team than Arsenal (man for man), Klopp is just better than Wenger.

They are both lacking in midfield and defense but, Liverpool's front three blows the attacking players Arsenal have out of the water.

 

[Blind]

They're clearly capable of playing superb stuff, they do it in fits and starts every season but they're so stagnant under Wenger that there's zero progress. He's let their defence regress in recent seasons and his eye for a player has gone.

 

[Camilo]

They've a decent squad, a great stadium and a strong fanbase. They need to move on from Wenger though. If they're not going to spend big they need someone who can bring in the solidity they need, and make the most of the great talent they do have.

 

[goons]

We need 2 centrebacks, 1 defensive midfielder and 1 winger and we’ll have a team as good as anyones in this league (except for city)... oh and of course a new manager if we are to compete.

Honestly though to actually win the title we would probably need a new owner as well. Kroenke doesn’t really give a... and is only really here to make money. Hopefully our awful record lately will have him consider selling soon though because he’s been shocking for us since he took over.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

They've a decent squad, a great stadium and a strong fanbase. They need to move on from Wenger though. If they're not going to spend big they need someone who can bring in the solidity they need, and make the most of the great talent they do have.

They’ve been stagnating with him;they can rebuild without him. Simple enough

 

[padr81]

Somewhere and somehow people have to realise that this team is less than the sum of its parts and thats on the manager. They can't and don't keep buying duds its impossible.

Just last season any club in England would be over the moon at a selection of attacking players that includes Lacazette, Aubameyang, Ozil. I'm not buying for one minute they are weaker than Liverpool for example. Unlike the other top 6 teams who perform to or above the level of their current playing staff, Arsenal don't unless they are 2-0 up at home to some minnow. That starts and ends with the manager.

Take a comparison with Liverpool, from the start of the season

Cech v Mignolet or Karius
Koscielny & Mustafi vs VVD & Matip
Bellerin vs Clyne
Monreal vs Milner/Robertson
Xhaka vs Can
Wilshere vs Ox
Ramsey vs Lallana
Ozil vs Mane
Lacazette vs Salah
Aubameyang vs Firminio

I have Arsenal weaker in very, very few of those positions. Where they are though much weaker is in the manager department

 

[Guy Incognito]

They aren't a team built for the league. Ironically Wenger has assembled a decent enough cup side, but when the chips are down they throw in the towel.

Wenger's system is a disaster because the players he has can't think for themselves. The squad he inherited could.

Get a new manager and things could look rosier.

 

[hobbers]

There's a top five and Arsenal are no longer even close to any of them.

 

[Jed I. Knight]

With how Arsenal is starting to look we may need to retire the whole "top 6" term.

It was always a temporary thing. I liked the old top four term and constellation much better. I think the teams were, generally speaking, quite a bit stronger back then. That goes double for Arsenal, even if they haven’t done much of note since the beginning of that phase.

 

[Fitchett]

Somewhere and somehow people have to realise that this team is less than the sum of its parts and thats on the manager. They can't and don't keep buying duds its impossible.

Just last season any club in England would be over the moon at a selection of attacking players that includes Lacazette, Aubameyang, Ozil. I'm not buying for one minute they are weaker than Liverpool for example. Unlike the other top 6 teams who perform to or above the level of their current playing staff, Arsenal don't unless they are 2-0 up at home to some minnow. That starts and ends with the manager.

Take a comparison with Liverpool, from the start of the season

Cech v Mignolet or Karius
Koscielny & Mustafi vs VVD & Matip
Bellerin vs Clyne
Monreal vs Milner/Robertson
Xhaka vs Can
Wilshere vs Ox
Ramsey vs Lallana
Ozil vs Mane
Lacazette vs Salah
Aubameyang vs Firminio

I have Arsenal weaker in very, very few of those positions. Where they are though much weaker is in the manager department

You missed out Welback and Mkhitaryan

 

[Random Task]

Somewhere and somehow people have to realise that this team is less than the sum of its parts and thats on the manager. They can't and don't keep buying duds its impossible.

Just last season any club in England would be over the moon at a selection of attacking players that includes Lacazette, Aubameyang, Ozil. I'm not buying for one minute they are weaker than Liverpool for example. Unlike the other top 6 teams who perform to or above the level of their current playing staff, Arsenal don't unless they are 2-0 up at home to some minnow. That starts and ends with the manager.

Take a comparison with Liverpool, from the start of the season

Cech v Mignolet or Karius
Koscielny & Mustafi vs VVD & Matip
Bellerin vs Clyne
Monreal vs Milner/Robertson
Xhaka vs Can
Wilshere vs Ox
Ramsey vs Lallana
Ozil vs Mane
Lacazette vs Salah
Aboomerang vs Firminio

I have Arsenal weaker in very, very few of those positions. Where they are though much weaker is in the manager department

Fixed.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Its Wenger's current level. The club has more potential (still greater resources than Liverpool and Spurs, even Chelsea if Roman isn't spending for players) but just doesn't have the internal direction atm to unlock that potential. Need a need vibrant manager and new structure from the top down.

 

[Fortitude]

They are a fringe team, capable of finishing top 4, but equally capable of finishing outside it, much like I beleive Tottenham will revert to being.

It actually feels like they've switched places with Tottenham in the grand scheme of things now. There used to be a thread on here every single year where the Arsenal lot would celebrate Totteringham Day - the point in the season where it was mathematically impossible for Spurs to finish above them. Oh how the tables seem to have turned.

I think even the way teams look at facing off against Spurs vis-a-vis Arsenal has done a complete 180.

I don't know when last before this era Spurs finished above Arsenal, let alone perennially. It's all very odd.

 

[Giggs86]

They were a decent cup team that used to nick 4th spot and celebrate it like some sort of trophy every year despite constantly getting knocked out early of the CL in the following seasons.

Now that defeatist mentality finally bites them in the ass with teams around them getting stronger and them inevitably slipping down the table and missing out on CL football.

Wenger is burying them deeper and deeper in the mud each passing moment he stays in the club. Hopefully he never leaves.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Lads, it's Arsenal.

 

[matherto]

The lack of concentration they have is absolutely astonishing.

They have lapses like the one for Aguero's goal in EVERY game. They only get punished by much better teams so they rarely get found out.

Why are they just jogging around completely switched off?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

It actually feels like they've switched places with Tottenham in the grand scheme of things now. There used to be a thread on here every single year where the Arsenal lot would celebrate Totteringham Day - the point in the season where it was mathematically impossible for Spurs to finish above them. Oh how the tables seem to have turned.

I think even the way teams look at facing off against Spurs vis-a-vis Arsenal has done a complete 180.

I don't know when last before this era Spurs finished above Arsenal, let alone perennially. It's all very odd.

It would only be the second year in a row in decades. Arsenal's revenue still dwarves Tottenham even with their new stadium. They got a bit lucky with a golden era with Poch and Kane but last 4 years Arsenal still has 3 FA Cups while Spurs have nothing. In another 5 years this will just seem like Tottenham's rare best years ever and still without trophies. Once Wenger has moved on Arsenal will be fine.

 

[Gopher Brown]

Somewhere and somehow people have to realise that this team is less than the sum of its parts and thats on the manager. They can't and don't keep buying duds its impossible.

Just last season any club in England would be over the moon at a selection of attacking players that includes Lacazette, Aubameyang, Ozil. I'm not buying for one minute they are weaker than Liverpool for example. Unlike the other top 6 teams who perform to or above the level of their current playing staff, Arsenal don't unless they are 2-0 up at home to some minnow. That starts and ends with the manager.

Take a comparison with Liverpool, from the start of the season

Cech v Mignolet or Karius
Koscielny & Mustafi vs VVD & Matip
Bellerin vs Clyne
Monreal vs Milner/Robertson
Xhaka vs Can
Wilshere vs Ox
Ramsey vs Lallana
Ozil vs Mane
Lacazette vs Salah
Aubameyang vs Firminio

I have Arsenal weaker in very, very few of those positions. Where they are though much weaker is in the manager department

Xhaka Can

 

[padr81]

Xhaka Can

Ain't nobody better.

 

[shamans]

This can't be accepted due to the size of the club. Unlike other former big clubs in England, Arsenal has a truly global fan base. Their global reach could be compared to that of a poor man's Manchester United but that is really saying something.

I think they will be in and around the top 4 clubs for years to come. Don't write them off yet. A fresh new manager and a few top signings could see them right at the top again.

 

[GaryLifo]

They got beaten by the FM team playing on cheat mode with infinite money. Not sure what anyone was expecting.

 

[Jonno]

I think they have pretty much stood still for a few years, they aren't much different in quality. Difference is, City United Liverpool Chelsea and Spurs are just upgraded and bolstered on new levels.