Will hit a new low on Thursday.
Should we just accept that this is Arsenal's level?
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The problem with what you're saying is that it does not acknowledge them getting better as a club and a squad and you getting worse. It's Spurs that look like the club who can make shrewd signings that integrate well, it's Spurs that have the upward trajectory whilst it's your club who have neglected things for so long that you've actually put yourselves in this position where you seriously look like the Europa League and 5th or below is a valid position.
I think you underestimate how long a rebuild might take and also the expenditure if you get it wrong. We've gone through multiple managers and wasted so much money on duds and it's been 5yrs since Fergie left. Unless you get the right man in after Wenger, and unless you're prepared to spend a fortune to get back on top, you're going to have to wing it and pray things work out, not only that, but Spurs and someone else retarding or reversing their growth.
There's a hell of a lot of what ifs and umms and ahhs in there. Even with a perfect storm, it might take you 2-3 years to get yourselves competitive again.
Fight; looking like a top 4 team. Arsenal are looking exceedingly out of their depth as a top-level side, which has got nothing to do with City. Arsenal charge the highest prices in the country and yet they look like a Europa League level side. Things are very wrong at that club.
It is the exact reason why I thought Mikhi is a great fit for them. They've got the 'quality' but not the mental quality. They prove that every single season.
They've underachieved since Lehmann got himself sent off in the Champions' League final twelve years ago. Basically since they left Highbury and had to cut costs from the stadium move. Since then, Wenger's had three big goes at rebuilding the side and not one of them has looked capable of sustaining itself for a single season. The odd cup here and there has papered over the cracks of just how far they've regressed in recent years and how with every big departure - from Fabregas to Nasri to Van Persie to Sanchez - they've repeatedly fallen away and built up an inferiority complex. The fact that City, Chelsea, Liverpool, United and Spurs have all improved during this time makes Arsenal's current situation look even worse. It all comes down to Wenger and the people who continue to employ him, and the truth is that since 2006 they've been capable of so much but have achieved very little in the grand scheme of things. A change of manager in the summer would be a start but the changes need to be more fundamental before results on the pitch start to appear.
I think it'd be naive to say that Arsenal have bottomed out, they are still dropping off every season so I wouldn't be surprised if the new manager came in in a years time and in his first season they came 10th-12th.
As a club they have history and actually they won more trophies recently than Spurs or Liverpool.
They took the right steps recently hiring Sven Mislintat, but as you can see even with good moves recently on the market their problems remain the same.
Without watching what happened today or recently vs Ostersund, I can say as respectfull Arsene Wenger history is at Arsenal, reality is and I am not joking here, if you put the same players in the hands of Ostersund manager, Graham Potter at least their football would be better even if today is impossible to say he could win trophies there.
They took the right steps recently hiring Sven Mislintat, but as you can see even with good moves recently on the market their problems remain the same.
Without watching what happened today or recently vs Ostersund, I can say as respectfull Arsene Wenger history is at Arsenal, reality is and I am not joking here, if you put the same players in the hands of Ostersund manager, Graham Potter at least their football would be better even if today is impossible to say he could win trophies there.
Not the whole picture. They got worse. They used to be able to attract quality potential players. They can't even do that now to replace their outgoing key players nowadays and end up with dross and some luxurious players.
That has more to do with their attempt to keep some prehistoric wage structure. It's simply too low. I know Tottenham pay less but their manager/ability to recruit younger and less known players overcomes that. They're stuck in limbo where they can't afford to match United/City and clubs like Chelsea/Tottenham/Liverpool are just better at finding gems. Honestly they'll keep getting worse as long as Wenger is there. He simply doesn't comprehend how the game works in this era (not tactics wise but player recruitment wise).
I'd argue they're not that much worse now than they were two or three years ago. But the teams around them are much better than they were in that they have far superior managers and not the likes of Hodgson, Rodgers, Sherwood, Moyes and Van Gaal in charge.
Also, they attracted Aubameyang, who has one of the best goal scoring records in Europe. Their recent recruitment of players has been poor, but the problem stems from Wenger, who is stuck in 2003. Nice guy, but he really has spoiled his legacy.
You can add City there if arabs feck off.
Yup, I agree. The problem is obvious and it's that they haven't spent near as big as any of the other big clubs over the last 10 years.
They should buy back Fabregas, and Arsene Wenger should get angrier at his players for doing crap sometimes. This is a 100% foolproof solution.
lel
They had to cut back financially when they moved to the Emirates. This was and has been the excuse for the manager and players to drop a couple of notches in terms of expectations and performances ever since.
They just switch it back on anymore except for a few matches.
As a United fan, its frustrating watching this club slide into an above top 8 type club. They are one of the few top clubs that actually earn their own money.
They just switch it back on anymore except for a few matches.
As a United fan, its frustrating watching this club slide into an above top 8 type club. They are one of the few top clubs that actually earn their own money.
YES, to the OP. Since we are not Arsenal fans.
They have definitely fallen behind, the whole top 6 thing is a bit of a misnomer this year, City are miles ahead. Then you have 4 teams all at very much a similar level in Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea, us. Then Arsenal adrift, sort of carrying that spot between those 4 teams and the rest of the league. Which I think tbf is about their level atm.
As for a shift for the club over the long term, of course since the time of Henry they have regressed. But it would be tough for any team to be as good consistently. If they win the Europa league is the season still a massive failure in Arsenal fans eyes? I consider top 4 gone for them, they will be in mix for that Europa league spot.
It's been the rise of Spurs and the mega bucks of City which has probably hurt them the most. Wenger would be happily sitting in 4th securing CL without those 2 teams.
As for a shift for the club over the long term, of course since the time of Henry they have regressed. But it would be tough for any team to be as good consistently. If they win the Europa league is the season still a massive failure in Arsenal fans eyes? I consider top 4 gone for them, they will be in mix for that Europa league spot.
It's been the rise of Spurs and the mega bucks of City which has probably hurt them the most. Wenger would be happily sitting in 4th securing CL without those 2 teams.
Arsenal are definitely a top four club - maybe not this instant, but they have enough resources to get there assuming they have the right manager and group of players in place.
They are the new Everton.
I see where you' coming at. I was talking about longer period, and this means IMO Wenger should have left 2-3 years ago when they won the first FA Cup after years of trophyless. That team back then had a motivated Alexis and other players were younger. The FA Cup may not be huge an achievement but a good foundation for the new coach to build on given Arsenal was still comfortable for top 4 back then. Now Wenger won more FA Cup which means the new coach needs to have something to show the fan for this rebuild period. The other teams overtook them in top 4 race so the next coach just had too much to deal with.
I don't disagree with Wenger is doing more damage the more he stay. My take is nowadays they can't attract the best potential players than they used to be able in the past. Aumabeyang IMO is Wenger 's desperate signing to replace Alexis, which means they ain't improving. Unlike Alexis, Aubameyang is more dependent on the system.
They will struggle until they get a replacement for Wenger and provide enough money to rebuild that squad. Wenger did build a brilliant team right after he took over, but he had a fantastic defensive unit there already with a top goal keeper in David Seaman to build on. For all his ability to create a good attacking football team, his problem is with his defense, and has been for many years.
This.
They are definitely under performing with Wneger. Competing for top 4 is their level now though. The season when Leicester won the league was their best shot to win the PL title once again and they blew it. I used to love the SAF - Wenger, Utd - Arsenal rivalry but just feel sorry for Wenger now. He needs to be put out of his misery.
I'd agree that like for like their squad isn't worse than Liverpool's. They need a better manager who will improve their weaknesses
Rather, we should accept this is Wengers level. That team is in desperate need of new blood and fresh ideas at the helm
This is what happens when you surround yourself with the same people for way too long. Everything becomes routine like and there is not fresh ideas/challenges which makes you think twice.
Wenger also lacked the ruthlessness of SAF which in my opinion is what SAF so successful. Apart from surrounding himself with experts and fresh ideas, SAF's greatest strength was his ability to motivate and be ruthless when it was needed. I'm hoping Mourinho is embracing new ideas as well because i read somewhere that his inner coaching circle is tight knit and has always been the same individuals.
Wenger also lacked the ruthlessness of SAF which in my opinion is what SAF so successful. Apart from surrounding himself with experts and fresh ideas, SAF's greatest strength was his ability to motivate and be ruthless when it was needed. I'm hoping Mourinho is embracing new ideas as well because i read somewhere that his inner coaching circle is tight knit and has always been the same individuals.
Arsenal are making the same mistake with Wenger as Forest did with Clough.
Think another manager would get far more out f the same players.
I actually think he'll go if they don't win the EL.
Double digit points behind 4th is incredibly low.
Double digit points behind 4th is incredibly low.
I still think they can win Europa League.
They can but there are a lot of good teams.
AC Milan are in good form. Can't see them going through easily.
There's also Napoli, Dortmund, RBL and Atletico Madrid.
Tough ask.
But isn't Arsenal the only one who needs to win Europa to advance to CL?
Giving 100% for Europa by giving up the league games can be a big difference as we saw with Jose last season.
The whole Wenger farce has to finally come to an end. Mourinho is absolutely right when he points out that half a season of underachieving at Chelsea gets him fired whereas half a decade of underachieving at Arsenal doesn't get Wenger fired is laughable. I'm not one who thinks you should fire the manager immediately but what Arsenal is doing is ridiculous. It's been obvious for some years now that Wenger doesn't know how to make this team a winning team again so unless the board and fans are happy with complete decline into mediocrity they need to look for a new manager.
Napoli crashed out on away goals.
But yes, winning the EL is not trivial in terms of difficulty. I still fancy them to go past Milan. After that it's a crap shoot.
They need to start resting players in the Premier League. They play City again on Thursday night and I can't see them winning, putting them 9-10 points off top 4 with 10 games to go - they aren't making that up. The other teams in the Europa League don't need to win it, bar their next opponents in AC Milan. This might be a slight advantage to Arsenal if they go full strength and take it seriously from now on. Obviously a tough ask, but a lot more likely than finishing 4th.
True. I don't really get expectations being any different or certain commentators/pundits gnashing their teeth in outrage at the gap that has opened up between the clubs and falsely attributing that to bottle or attitude. To compete yesterday, Arsenal would have needed a fair wind behind them - a defensive unit playing out of its skin and to gobble up any chances that came their way. That didn't happen and the outcome was inevitable.
Also ignoring the defeats City have handed out to superior sides.
It’s the way they’ve been run as a business first, before a football club. Wenger did incredibly well keeping them competing while they were paying off the stadium but that got the suits upstairs too accustomed to a stable profit stream without any significant investment. Year after year they went for the budget signings and consistently failed to add the finishing touches of quality to go up a level. You can’t expect that contentment in mediocrity not to trickle down to the players, lowering expectations and making failure more and more acceptable.
It’s also abundantly clear that Wenger has been left far behind by the current crop of managers, and all he’s doing by stubbornly refusing to leave is tarnish his own legacy and how people will remember him.
Traditionally they’re a top four club no doubt, but 2 consecutive years sitting out of Europe’s premier competition begin to do some damage.
It’s also abundantly clear that Wenger has been left far behind by the current crop of managers, and all he’s doing by stubbornly refusing to leave is tarnish his own legacy and how people will remember him.
Traditionally they’re a top four club no doubt, but 2 consecutive years sitting out of Europe’s premier competition begin to do some damage.
You expected Arsenal to fold like a deck chair before a ball was even kicked?
I don't think many would have had Arsenal as the victors before the game kicked off, but just giving up like that... it's either just the level they are, or, the cliche of mentality once again plays its hand.
Oooff, arsenal are not beating any of those.
They are weaker in more or less every position bar goalkeeper.
If you are taking start of the season, you should be taking out VVD and Aubameyang and inserting Sanchez and Coutinho though.
Arsenal have been about the same level for a long time now. The cracks were rather papered over in the past because usually a couple of the other big teams would take turns to have a total mare. This season though all the teams have had a solid season or better, and as a result Arsenal have been left behind. You can only get so far whopping poor teams at home. Bad enough that they're 27 points behind City, but they're 8 points of 5th at the mo (albeit with a game in hand).
In coming years its entirely possible for any of the teams above Arsenal to have a crap season, maybe even two teams, in which case Arsenal under Wenger might squeak into 4th place from time to time. But I think that's the best they can hope for as thing stand.
In coming years its entirely possible for any of the teams above Arsenal to have a crap season, maybe even two teams, in which case Arsenal under Wenger might squeak into 4th place from time to time. But I think that's the best they can hope for as thing stand.
How that match panned out is more of a reflection of the gap between the sides rather than a difference in attitude. You're right in the OP - it's where they are now and I don't really buy the 'they wanted it more' line of argument. It's been overblown by fans and the media in this game because Neville went off on one because players were getting back into shape after a couple of sustained high-intensity bursts.