Should we renew De Gea's contract?

Renew?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

SAFMUTD

New Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
11,787
It’s funny… the internet breeds polarization. There is no nuance. Seriously, you wouldn’t have DeGea here as a backup on 10k wages/week? Really? You’d rather have Butland at 35k a week as backup?

I agree, it’s time to move on from Dave. But let’s not pretend that he was shite, always shite, never had a good season. To me, in the last 30 years, it’s Schmeichel, VDS, DDG in that order. I’d still take DDG over Barthez or Howard, Roy Carroll, Bosnich, all that drivel. It’s not even close. Ben Foster? Gotta be kidding me!

Absolutely, we need to move on from Dave as our no.1. He’ll never be as good as VDS or Schmeichel. But let’s be honest, he was an above average GK for most of his career, had some great seasons sprinkled in amongst the mediocrity.

It’s like the Caf feels compelled to kick him in the nuts on his way out.
Its an exageration obviously for 10K i'd had him. But being realistic there's no way that happens, De Gea wont accept a second choice role nor second choice wages. He was absolute class for about 4-5 years but that was a long time ago. He's been riding on his reputation for some time now. Since 2018 he's been no more than average with multiple stupid and costly mistakes in big stages and key matches.

I'm not as old as you it seems, I only watched Schmeichel, Barthez, Howard, VDS and DDG. I agree DDG is 3rd from the ones I've seen, but he's really a step down from Schmeichel and VDS which is a big fall as 5-6 years ago many of us thought he had a case for being our best ever.
 

DSG

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
2,461
Location
A Whale’s Vagina
Henderson's save percentage in his season with us (76.5%) was better than any of De Gea's last five seasons (71.9%, 74.8%, 68.9%, 70% and 70%). This season with Forest is worse than any of them though (65.9%), so it could be just a relatively small sample size (12 and 18 games in his two seasons), a decline in his ability to make saves, or the difference between being in goal for Man Utd and Forest. I also don't think it's that great a stat.

Henderson is quite poor with his passing himself, although personally I wouldn't say any worse. He does have good distribution with his throws though, and is also much more eager to sweep and takes a higher starting position.

I checked out a couple of Forest forums a few weeks ago (before the match against us) and while it certainly wasn't unanimous there was a fairly obvious majority who thought Henderson had been better than Navas was for them.

Of course, I do want to stress again that I'm not actually saying I want Henderson as our goalkeeper. It's just that he is better than what he gets credit for here and IMO better than De Gea so if it does come down to the two of them I'd prefer him. However I actually want better again, and don't think we'd have to break the bank to get that.
Balanced post and mostly agree. Diogo Costa is going to cost €50-70m… maybe more.Our squad is so thin, I’d want a stopgap solution for 1-2 years on the cheap, along with buying a top young GK for 15-20m. We’ve got so many holes in our squad, it seems like breaking the bank on the hottest GK is questionable. I see another CB, CMs at least, probably an established striker and a young backup. A backup for Bruno is sorely needed.
 

arthurka

Full Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2010
Messages
18,741
Location
Rectum
Anyone thinking that ETH doesn´t know his faults is greatly mistaken. He is probably trying to sort out the importance of each position and possible players to add to the squad. DDG is well past his BBF date but he isn´t spoiled or rotten yet so I guess there are other positions that need urgent attention.

2 years and no guarantees might be ok.
 

SAFMUTD

New Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
11,787
I’m aware of all of these stats. When you start breaking these down, it gets messy very, very quickly. How many times have we looked at xG versus real results and questioned the metric? It’s one of many tools to evaluate a keeper’s performance. The PSxG +/- has DDG the third best GK last season!!!! Troll back to the 17/18 season and DeGea posted a PSxG +/- of +13.4!!! Was he that good that season? It’s better than any single season that Alisson has ever had! Does that mean DeGea is a better GK? I would say no.

Nuance. That’s all I ask.
De Gea was absolute class in that 17/18 season. It was his last great season. De Gea was actually the 4th best last season but with only +1.1 PSxG. Its not about places its about how many goals you prevent.
 

JagUTD

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
3,223
Yes, the first (18/19) and last (22/23) seasons that I listed aren't perfect comparisons as there were quite different defensive set-ups in those years. The middle three years are more comparable since the defensive line and play-style were largely the same.

De Gea himself has to take some blame for the weakness of our defence, with his lack of basically doing anything to help except save shots (and even that not to a particularly great ability anymore). That's where a more solid all-round keeper will help out, sweeping, coming for crosses/set pieces, stronger leadership and communication, less possession given away, etc. Once again, we even saw that first hand when Henderson came in and our defence as a whole simply looked more solid and comfortable. It's certainly not all on De Gea of course, but he's a fairly significant contributor to the issues.
Without being able to remember in detail every part of the past 5 season, and some of that is intentional, I have felt most at ease watching United when we have had a defensive base consisting of De Gea, Varane, Martinez and Casemiro.

If each defensive line is broken, there's a sense the next one will stop the attack.

It's not always worked of course. While they've been together for some of our best defensive performances, they've also been together for our worst.

They certainly have trust in each other which in turn, builds confidence. It feels a million miles away from the absolute chaos we have had in the past.
 

DSG

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
2,461
Location
A Whale’s Vagina
Its an exageration obviously for 10K i'd had him. But being realistic there's no way that happens, De Gea wont accept a second choice role nor second choice wages. He was absolute class for about 4-5 years but that was a long time ago. He's been riding on his reputation for some time now. Since 2018 he's been no more than average with multiple stupid and costly mistakes in big stages and key matches.

I'm not as old as you it seems, I only watched Schmeichel, Barthez, Howard, VDS and DDG. I agree DDG is 3rd from the ones I've seen, but he's really a step down from Schmeichel and VDS which is a big fall as 5-6 years ago many of us thought he had a case for being our best ever.
Agree with this and I know we’re all angry with Dave right now. My point is, it’s time to move on, let’s understand that Dave was a good club servant, never reached the top level of Schmeichel and VDS, was overpaid, error-prone at times, but in a period where we weren’t at our best had brief periods of excellence.

Side note: for me, I never thought he was the best ever, or best GK in the world. His lack of command of the box, lack of bravery in the air and poor distribution was always a worry. Most instinctive shot stopper I’ve ever seen. But as a total package, never touched the heights of Buffon, Neuer, Cech IMHO.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,714
All the cards stacked against De Gea? Ole was loyal to a fault, yet even he ultimately dropped De Gea for Henderson in the first season they were both options. It was only Henderson getting long Covid which gave De Gea back the spot the following season, and De Gea did actually step up and looked something like his old self until after Ole was sacked and a month or two into Rangnick's reign.

You've mentioned a few times about Henderson letting in a lot of goals with Forest without putting it in context. It was one of the most randomly put together squads in the history of the PL, and every man and their dog knew they would struggle to gel at the beginning of the season. Then ended up conceding 21 goals in the first 8 games. However they then only conceded 10 in the next 10 games with Henderson in the goal. Since he's been injured they largely fell apart again, conceding 31 goals in 17 games (despite his replacement being a multiple CL
Oh there were ample pressure at the time by the Brexit administration and their mates from the class of 92 to have Henderson replacing DDG. The way he clawed back his place back was quite remarkable although it might be less remarkable considering the many times Henderson kept picking the ball off his net this season.

Howard was a started for 1 year. Same with Carroll. Foster for what? 2 months?

And actually these examples just justify the reason to bin now DDG. When we actually brought a great GK we stopped going out of Europe due to GK mistakes. DDG has cost us in 3 European runs. He
I wasn't comparing DDG with those keepers. I am just reminded people what a shit goalkeeper truly looks like. DDG is in decline but he's a decent keeper who can serve us well for another season. We'll need that considering the many challenges we'll be facing (new ownership, a takeover which will probably be completed during mid summer, FFP restrictions etc)
 

JagUTD

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
3,223
What do you base that on? I spoke with Forest fans when we went there last month and they were looking forward to him being fit and hoping he came back in ahead of Navas, who the majority didn't overly rate (sods law he went on to have a great game). Someone else on here went through the Forest forum at the time and the views on there were in line with what I'd been told too.
Just chatting with Forest fans. Got some family down there. They don't think he's been poor, they just expected a bit more basically. Big reputation and all that.

Might also be down to their poor run before beating Saints, which can offer cloud fans judgement. Wasn't a big sample size tbf.
 

johnnyteutonic

Full Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2023
Messages
296
Location
Melbourne, Australia
That's fair enough mate. Like I've said i'm also waiting to see how things develop and hopefully things go well. All the successful DoFs utilise data, which makes their scouting much more effective. Liverpool built their data department up in 2012, when they hired Damien Comolli as their DoF and he brought over Ian Graham and his team who he got to know at Spurs, due to Spurs hiring the services of the company Ian Graham and his team of data scientists were working for. Edwards was also at Spurs and hence Comolli brought them all over from Spurs before he was sacked. They've left us far behind and we're just playing catch up a decade later.
As a data scientist myself, I was very shocked to find out how far behind we are in such area.
I remember reading an article that outlined some of the work Liverpool did, which was actually headed by a Physics PhD a few years back that involved a pitch control model that helped them understand the dynamics that occur on the field of play and basically, given the current game state and the positioning of other players on the field, how can the player with the ball make optimal use of space (and time).
Very interesting work and I wish we had people like that at our club.


With United, I'm not really sure what hires they've made beyond hiring Dominic Jordan but a successful team of such scale will involve data engineers who will be tasked with producing and curating databases to work with for downstream analysis, data analysts, and data scientists who specialise in making proprietary models (that's more what I do).

I don't see why you would feel that we cannot implement such a structure at this club in time, given new ownership?
 

DSG

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
2,461
Location
A Whale’s Vagina
De Gea was absolute class in that 17/18 season. It was his last great season. De Gea was actually the 4th best last season but with only +1.1 PSxG. Its not about places its about how many goals you prevent.
Yes, but these stats are not perfect. Eye test for me: DeGea needs to go. We definitely should shake his hand and pat him on the back though, not kick him in his ass on the way out.

I always felt we treated Valencia poorly when he left too. All he did was give his heart and soul to the club, changed positions which probably cost him money, and was, for 2-3 seasons one of the best RBs in the world.
 

JagUTD

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
3,223
Oh there were ample pressure at the time by the Brexit administration and their mates from the class of 92 to have Henderson replacing DDG. The way he clawed back his place back was quite remarkable although it might be less remarkable considering the many times Henderson kept picking the ball off his net this season.



I wasn't comparing DDG with those keepers. I am just reminded people what a shit goalkeeper truly looks like. DDG is in decline but he's a decent keeper who can serve us well for another season. We'll need that considering the many challenges we'll be facing (new ownership, a takeover which will probably be completed during mid summer, FFP restrictions etc)
I meant to quote your earlier post. I certainly remember those days, desperately trying to replace Schmeichel Some absolute shockers turned out for United in goal between him and Van Der Sar.

I really hope replacing De Gea involves some planning. I'm very wary of stop gaps as well because... Well, look at our record with stop gaps.
 

quadrant

Full Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2023
Messages
417
I meant to quote your earlier post. I certainly remember those days, desperately trying to replace Schmeichel Some absolute shockers turned out for United in goal between him and Van Der Sar.

I really hope replacing De Gea involves some planning. I'm very wary of stop gaps as well because... Well, look at our record with stop gaps.
History has been so harsh on Barthez.
 

SAFMUTD

New Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
11,787
Yes, but these stats are not perfect. Eye test for me: DeGea needs to go. We definitely should shake his hand and pat him on the back though, not kick him in his ass on the way out.

I always felt we treated Valencia poorly when he left too. All he did was give his heart and soul to the club, changed positions which probably cost him money, and was, for 2-3 seasons one of the best RBs in the world.
I get your point, also there's no statistic, as far as Im concerned, for prevented chances. How many shots/goals would've been prevented if De Gea actually came out for crosses? That's a huge liability and puts our whole defense under pressure as opponents know De Gea is rooted to the goal line. As you said, eye test says more than anything.
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,635
They are pretty much equal in importance for me. Striker is obviously the highest priority and will have the biggest impact on the team as a whole, but keeper and a #8 are next in line.


Isn't that quite obvious? One of the single most important aspects of being able to maintain a high line is having a keeper behind that has a high starting position himself and comes out to act as a sweeper. Otherwise it leaves way too much space for opposition teams to play long balls and through balls in behind the defence for strikers to run onto.

Put De Gea into City or Liverpool and their defence instantly has to drop deeper to compensate. Which then has the knock-on effect of their entire pressing system not working so well as there is more space between the lines and they can't win the ball back so often and so quickly. Likewise put a sweeper keeper into our team and our defence is able to stay higher (which we already saw in a small sample size when Henderson was first choice at the end of 20/21). People put a lot of focus on distribution and passing ability, but many really do sleep on how important a sweeper keeper is to a team. Even if the actual quality of what they do with the ball isn't that much better than De Gea, the very fact that they are there covering for their defence is extremely important. Pope is a great example of that.
Not really. The single most important aspect on high defensive line is your team can maintain high ball possession. We can have Neuer, one of the best Gk sweeper, but if the players in front of him are shit in possession and shit on pressing/winning the ball back (which we are), the defensive line would still be lower.

How do you maintain high defensive line when your team are shit in possession and in pressing/winning the ball back??
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,714
I meant to quote your earlier post. I certainly remember those days, desperately trying to replace Schmeichel Some absolute shockers turned out for United in goal between him and Van Der Sar.

I really hope replacing De Gea involves some planning. I'm very wary of stop gaps as well because... Well, look at our record with stop gaps.
Schmeichel used to call the role as the loneliest and the hardest role in football and he was right. If a defender commits a mistake then the goalkeeper will either cover for him or he'll probably share the blame. GKs have no backup plan. One mistake and suddenly half the world will be laughing at them while most of their fans would want their head. Its very hard to find a keeper with the talent and the character to do such job especially at a club like United were every word, every move, every breath taken is scrutinized.
 

Oranges038

Full Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
12,251
I meant to quote your earlier post. I certainly remember those days, desperately trying to replace Schmeichel Some absolute shockers turned out for United in goal between him and Van Der Sar.

I really hope replacing De Gea involves some planning. I'm very wary of stop gaps as well because... Well, look at our record with stop gaps.
It's not stop gaps.

The likes of Carroll, Ricardo, Goram, Taibi were stop gaps, signed as backup, never destined to be no.1. But were played out of necessity due to injury or loss of form of the number 1. Ferguson had no problem dropping his keeper when he wasn't playing well.

Bosnich, Barthez, Howard, Foster weren't signed to be stop gaps. They were signed to be no.1, they weren't good enough so they were moved on until the right one was found. That's really how it should work.
 

JagUTD

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
3,223
Schmeichel used to call the role as the loneliest and the hardest role in football and he was right. If a defender commits a mistake then the goalkeeper will either cover for him or he'll probably share the blame. GKs have no backup plan. One mistake and suddenly half the world will be laughing at them while most of their fans would want their head. Its very hard to find a keeper with the talent and the character to do such job especially at a club like United were every word, every move, every breath taken is scrutinized.
Absolutely. Few positions are subject to the success of failure of their teammates quite like the goalkeeper.
 

JagUTD

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
3,223
It's not stop gaps.

The likes of Carroll, Ricardo, Goram, Taibi were stop gaps, signed as backup, never destined to be no.1. But were played out of necessity due to injury or loss of form of the number 1. Ferguson had no problem dropping his keeper when he wasn't playing well.

Bosnich, Barthez, Howard, Foster weren't signed to be stop gaps. They were signed to be no.1, they weren't good enough so they were moved on until the right one was found. That's really how it should work.
Sorry, wasn't referring to back in the day but our recent record in all positions. Buying someone to fill a spot rather than buying the right player.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,714
Absolutely. Few positions are subject to the success of failure of their teammates quite like the goalkeeper.
That's why I am a bit reluctant in removing DDG on a whim. Sure he's in decline. However he's still a very decent keeper and he's got the character to pick himself up. I think we should wait at least another 12 months and revisit the issue once we've got the money to get the very very best.
 

Oranges038

Full Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
12,251
Sorry, wasn't referring to back in the day but our recent record in all positions. Buying someone to fill a spot rather than buying the right player.
Then only position recently where that's really been happening is at CF. Ibra, Cavani, Ronaldo, Ighalo, Weghorst etc.. this season you've had Eriksen on a free and Sabitzer on loan.

Every other position the players have been brought in for big money or the wrong money if you want to look at it that way. It just so happens that the players haven't been good enough for the position they were brought in for.
 

JagUTD

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2022
Messages
3,223
Then only position recently where that's really been happening is at CF. Ibra, Cavani, Ronaldo, Ighalo, Weghorst etc.. this season you've had Eriksen on a free and Sabitzer on loan.

Every other position the players have been brought in for big money or the wrong money if you want to look at it that way. It just so happens that the players haven't been good enough for the position they were brought in for.
That'll be what's done it, scared me for life. Even if they end up decent enough, they're old and need replacing immediately :lol:

Just a revolving door of stop gaps.
 

MadDogg

Full Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
15,972
Location
Manchester Utd never lose, just run out of time
Oh there were ample pressure at the time by the Brexit administration and their mates from the class of 92 to have Henderson replacing DDG. The way he clawed back his place back was quite remarkable although it might be less remarkable considering the many times Henderson kept picking the ball off his net this season.
Brexit administration :lol:

Class of 92 pressuring to have Henderson? If anything it was the opposite. These are quotes from the 20/21 season:

Dean [Henderson] is a million miles away from replacing De Gea, the level of scrutiny playing for Manchester United is another level. He should focus on cup competitions.

'I think De Gea is the No 1 as Henderson has a lot to do in mind. I don't get carried away by a young and talented goalkeeper at Manchester United. I've seen it before over the last 25 years where there have been young and talented goalkeepers who have threatened to come in but to stand in those goals at the club, in particular when fans come back into the stadium, then they are big, big boots to fill. Only Edwin van der Sar and Peter Schmeichel have filled those boots in my time, while David de Gea has now.

'I think he's [De Gea] probably been better this season. I was nervous about him towards the end of last season and I think even Ole would've been looking at him and thinking "you're not far away from being left out". But I think now he's stuck with him, which I think is the right thing to do. If you're going to take someone like him out then you have to make sure that you're absolutely certain because once you take him out of the team you really are moving his confidence away and he may as well leave the club.

'For me, I think it's exciting that Henderson is coming through but I reserve my judgement on whether he can become somebody who can go in Manchester United's goal in the next 10 years.'

"I don’t see David’s decline as big as what people have been making out. I think he’s still a top goalkeeper. I think the introduction of Alisson and Ederson as well as the form of Man City and Liverpool hasn’t helped him but he’s a top goalkeeper.

"I’ve played with him and I’ve coached him, he’s a brilliant goalkeeper but he has made a few more mistakes than he has done in the previous five or six years. I think he’s had a very unsettled defence in front of him and that hasn’t helped him; that wouldn’t help any goalkeeper no matter how good you are.

"He’s a top, top goalkeeper. When you start messing about in the goalkeeper position as we found out when Peter [Schmeichel] left it can be tricky. I don’t think he’s at a stage where you need to think about changing him."

“He’s unrecognisable from the goalkeeper that won (club) player of the year four years out of five years. He’s making mistakes. A confident, assured, on-form De Gea saves all three (goals),”

“If I was Solskjaer, then I would be worried because of his performance levels. They’ve dipped and his inconsistency is costing United games. “I wouldn’t leave him out yet. His credentials are still up there with the best in the world. He’s just lost all his confidence.”

Scholes was a bit more even, saying it was time for Henderson to get a chance after De Gea made yet more mistakes and then saying he did well in his first few matches, but he quickly changed his tune and started calling for De Gea again (it's spread over three different interviews so can't be bothered quoting them all).

I also don't know what is so remarkable about De Gea 'clawing his place back' with half a season of good performances while his competitor was suffering from long covid, before quickly dropping right off again.
 
Last edited:

MadDogg

Full Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
15,972
Location
Manchester Utd never lose, just run out of time
Not really. The single most important aspect on high defensive line is your team can maintain high ball possession. We can have Neuer, one of the best Gk sweeper, but if the players in front of him are shit in possession and shit on pressing/winning the ball back (which we are), the defensive line would still be lower.

How do you maintain high defensive line when your team are shit in possession and in pressing/winning the ball back??
This is a chicken and egg situation. The reality is that neither truly come first, but they build on each other and you need both to be able to do it properly.

A high defensive line makes it easier to press and win the ball back as it compresses the space. It makes it far more difficult to press successfully if you are playing a low defensive line with more space all throughout the field. However a high line by itself obviously isn't enough, you also need to be able to press well tactically else it won't work and the high line will be forced backwards.

The keeper is vital for a high defensive line to work, as he's the one who has to reduce as much of that space in behind them as possible. However obviously the players throughout the rest of the team also have to be actually doing their job properly as well. But if the outfield players are doing their job but the keeper is refusing to come out, that also stops it from working as you instantly are put in the position where your defence has to drop (therefore you are no longer playing a high line) or you get ripped apart by any pacy counter-attacks.
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,635
This is a chicken and egg situation. The reality is that neither truly come first, but they build on each other and you need both to be able to do it properly.

A high defensive line makes it easier to press and win the ball back as it compresses the space. It makes it far more difficult to press successfully if you are playing a low defensive line with more space all throughout the field. However a high line by itself obviously isn't enough, you also need to be able to press well tactically else it won't work and the high line will be forced backwards.

The keeper is vital for a high defensive line to work, as he's the one who has to reduce as much of that space in behind them as possible. However obviously the players throughout the rest of the team also have to be actually doing their job properly as well. But if the outfield players are doing their job but the keeper is refusing to come out, that also stops it from working as you instantly are put in the position where your defence has to drop (therefore you are no longer playing a high line) or you get ripped apart by any pacy counter-attacks.
Keylor Navas was Madrid Gk when winning CL 3 times in a row ( a feat that never happened). I don't recall him as sweeper Gk or anything more that DDG, but that didn't stop Madrid
 

MadDogg

Full Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
15,972
Location
Manchester Utd never lose, just run out of time
Keylor Navas was Madrid Gk when winning CL 3 times in a row ( a feat that never happened). I don't recall him as sweeper Gk or anything more that DDG, but that didn't stop Madrid
I'll be honest I didn't watch them enough to know for sure, so just checked out his stats. In his last two seasons at Madrid in La Liga (which is as far back as the stats go) he was certainly sweeping quite a lot. In 17/18 he was in the 77th percentile for defensive actions out the penalty area and 89th percentile for the average distance out of the box those actions were. In 18/19 he was 83rd and 91st percentile for those. De Gea this season in comparison in in the 24th and 39th percentile for the two. So Navas was certainly playing a much higher line than De Gea does for us. He does seem to have dropped off quite a bit since though.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,714
Brexit administration :lol:

Class of 92 pressuring to have Henderson? If anything it was the opposite. These are quotes from the 20/21 season:

Dean [Henderson] is a million miles away from replacing De Gea, the level of scrutiny playing for Manchester United is another level. He should focus on cup competitions.

'I think De Gea is the No 1 as Henderson has a lot to do in mind. I don't get carried away by a young and talented goalkeeper at Manchester United. I've seen it before over the last 25 years where there have been young and talented goalkeepers who have threatened to come in but to stand in those goals at the club, in particular when fans come back into the stadium, then they are big, big boots to fill. Only Edwin van der Sar and Peter Schmeichel have filled those boots in my time, while David de Gea has now.

'I think he's [De Gea] probably been better this season. I was nervous about him towards the end of last season and I think even Ole would've been looking at him and thinking "you're not far away from being left out". But I think now he's stuck with him, which I think is the right thing to do. If you're going to take someone like him out then you have to make sure that you're absolutely certain because once you take him out of the team you really are moving his confidence away and he may as well leave the club.

'For me, I think it's exciting that Henderson is coming through but I reserve my judgement on whether he can become somebody who can go in Manchester United's goal in the next 10 years.'

"I don’t see David’s decline as big as what people have been making out. I think he’s still a top goalkeeper. I think the introduction of Alisson and Ederson as well as the form of Man City and Liverpool hasn’t helped him but he’s a top goalkeeper.

"I’ve played with him and I’ve coached him, he’s a brilliant goalkeeper but he has made a few more mistakes than he has done in the previous five or six years. I think he’s had a very unsettled defence in front of him and that hasn’t helped him; that wouldn’t help any goalkeeper no matter how good you are.

"He’s a top, top goalkeeper. When you start messing about in the goalkeeper position as we found out when Peter [Schmeichel] left it can be tricky. I don’t think he’s at a stage where you need to think about changing him."

“He’s unrecognisable from the goalkeeper that won (club) player of the year four years out of five years. He’s making mistakes. A confident, assured, on-form De Gea saves all three (goals),”

“If I was Solskjaer, then I would be worried because of his performance levels. They’ve dipped and his inconsistency is costing United games. “I wouldn’t leave him out yet. His credentials are still up there with the best in the world. He’s just lost all his confidence.”

Scholes was a bit more even, saying it was time for Henderson to get a chance after De Gea made yet more mistakes and then saying he did well in his first few matches, but he quickly changed his tune and started calling for De Gea again (it's spread over three different interviews so can't be bothered quoting them all).

I also don't know what is so remarkable about De Gea 'clawing his place back' with half a season of good performances while his competitor was suffering from long covid, before quickly dropping right off again.
Gaz seriously? The guy criticised DDG when he was in his prime. And of course they were a Brexit administration. It was the time when they kept reminding us how 'important a British core was' and a time when we were told that it was a good idea spending 80m on a CB with no pace and zero football IQ. Till this very day the class of 92 finds it tough to criticise Maguire.

DDG was on the way out partly down to his fault but mostly down on how much hyped Henderson was. DDG clawed his way back and there was nothing Dean had done that remotely show that he is at United's level. Actually he spent much of his loan at Nottingham either injured or picking the ball from their net.
 

MadDogg

Full Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
15,972
Location
Manchester Utd never lose, just run out of time
Gaz seriously? The guy criticised DDG when he was in his prime. And of course they were a Brexit administration. It was the time when they kept reminding us how 'important a British core was' and a time when we were told that it was a good idea spending 80m on a CB with no pace and zero football IQ. Till this very day the class of 92 finds it tough to criticise Maguire.

DDG was on the way out partly down to his fault but mostly down on how much hyped Henderson was. DDG clawed his way back and there was nothing Dean had done that remotely show that he is at United's level. Actually he spent much of his loan at Nottingham either injured or picking the ball from their net.
So I show you quotes from Gary and the others when they were directly comparing the two keepers and saying the De Gea should be #1, but according to you they were actually playing 3D chess and were strongly pushing Henderson because Gary apparently criticised De Gea back when he was in his prime. Yep, makes sense.

De Gea was 'on the way out' due to being absolutely terrible for well over over two years and directly costing us numerous cup runs and CL qualification through his feck-ups, combined with the fact we had a highly rated young keeper that had done well at every stage that he could at that point. There's not a well-run club in the world that wouldn't have either made that change earlier than us or just went out and signed a different keeper to move ahead of both of them. The fact that you think it was some media-pressure thing (when in reality it was the fans that wanted the change while the media and ex-players constantly defended De Gea) is truly astounding.
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,635
I'll be honest I didn't watch them enough to know for sure, so just checked out his stats. In his last two seasons at Madrid in La Liga (which is as far back as the stats go) he was certainly sweeping quite a lot. In 17/18 he was in the 77th percentile for defensive actions out the penalty area and 89th percentile for the average distance out of the box those actions were. In 18/19 he was 83rd and 91st percentile for those. De Gea this season in comparison in in the 24th and 39th percentile for the two. So Navas was certainly playing a much higher line than De Gea does for us. He does seem to have dropped off quite a bit since though.
Yeah. The percentile is for their respective league, where Madrid was expected to dominate the game most of the time. But i don't recall Navas was famous as sweeper Gk, but more of agility type, ala DDG.

Anyway, I'm still not convinced that Gk is the cause of us to not playing defensive highline, or even attacking possession football this season. I don't think having any Gk in all era would turn us into that type this season.

Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't upgrade DDG.
 

caid

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
8,332
Location
Dublin
History has been so harsh on Barthez.
Thought similar but I remember him and wes brown having a lot of comedy errors between them and just bringing out the absolute worst in each other. Might be memory playing tricks at this point. Think he was better than most of the other examples
Probably similar situation today with a lot of players like De Gea and Maguire being a bad mix and making each other look worse than they are. Or just them not working well with our tactics, throw the pair of them in a low block and they'd probably fare better.
 

Belisarius

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2021
Messages
655
Location
Ontario, Canada
I kind of wish Sergio Romero was still our backup keeper. He wasn't the most talented. But, he could handle the pressure and was good in knock-out competitions.
 

Gazza

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2000
Messages
32,644
Location
'tis a silly place
So I show you quotes from Gary and the others when they were directly comparing the two keepers and saying the De Gea should be #1, but according to you they were actually playing 3D chess and were strongly pushing Henderson because Gary apparently criticised De Gea back when he was in his prime. Yep, makes sense.

De Gea was 'on the way out' due to being absolutely terrible for well over over two years and directly costing us numerous cup runs and CL qualification through his feck-ups, combined with the fact we had a highly rated young keeper that had done well at every stage that he could at that point. There's not a well-run club in the world that wouldn't have either made that change earlier than us or just went out and signed a different keeper to move ahead of both of them. The fact that you think it was some media-pressure thing (when in reality it was the fans that wanted the change while the media and ex-players constantly defended De Gea) is truly astounding.
In dev's world it does!
 

NLunited

Full Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
3,801
Location
US
People do underestimate how many mistakes he makes but also the amount of pressure he creates especially when the going gets tough.

It might of been the Spurs game but in the 2nd half.. he seemed to only hoof it and it practically always went to Spurs. Inviting more and more pressure.
He was hoofing it so much, it must have been instructions he was following.
 

TheLittleOne

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
355
Location
Zürich
I kind of wish Sergio Romero was still our backup keeper. He wasn't the most talented. But, he could handle the pressure and was good in knock-out competitions.
He was excellent value for money and in many ways better than our No.1. I never felt uncomfortable having him in goal.

Cant remember what De Gea's wages were at that time but it must have been like 250k. Romeros was at like 80k iirc. I would have gave him 120-140k and the number 1 spot and let De Gea go instead of giving him 375k a week. The drop off in quality in shot stopping was there but not so big that it was concerning while Romero was better in other aspects of the game to even it out. Not only do you save directly in wages but you also lower the expectations of incoming future players. Imaging coming into the club knowing very well the goal keeper earns 375k a week?! You are gonna ask for a lot of money. It does set a bad presedent.
 
Last edited:

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
29,893
Location
England
As a data scientist myself, I was very shocked to find out how far behind we are in such area.
I remember reading an article that outlined some of the work Liverpool did, which was actually headed by a Physics PhD a few years back that involved a pitch control model that helped them understand the dynamics that occur on the field of play and basically, given the current game state and the positioning of other players on the field, how can the player with the ball make optimal use of space (and time).
Very interesting work and I wish we had people like that at our club.


With United, I'm not really sure what hires they've made beyond hiring Dominic Jordan but a successful team of such scale will involve data engineers who will be tasked with producing and curating databases to work with for downstream analysis, data analysts, and data scientists who specialise in making proprietary models (that's more what I do).

I don't see why you would feel that we cannot implement such a structure at this club in time, given new ownership?
The data science strategy will be implemented and we're of course late to the party, over a decade late in comparison to Liverpool. Liverpool's strategy in that regard came about after they hired Damien Comolli, who was formerly of Spurs and he brought over the data science team working for Spurs to Liverpool. Even Michael Edwards who was brought to Spurs by Harry Redknapp, ended up at Liverpool to work under Comolli. Comolli was sacked a short while after but his past association with Spurs provided FSG the tools to evolve their recruitment structure backed up by a data science strategy, which took a few years to evolve and and it peaked under Klopp after much criticism in the early years.

So far we have Dominic Jordan and Alex Kleyn (joins at the start of next season) who are confirmed. With more personnel expected to join the aforementioned two.
 

TheLittleOne

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
Messages
355
Location
Zürich
Wanted to put this in a separate thread as a summary of exactly why replacing David de Gea should in fact be our no. 1 priority this summer. (Yes, a striker is crucial as well, but I'll get to that).
I'll just leave it here instead, and by chance it might spark some further debate -- going beyond "I want him to go because of his passing/I want him to stay because of his shot stopping or legendary status".

WHY AND HOW DE GEA IS OUR BIGGEST LIABILITY AND HINDRANCE TO EVOLVING OUR STYLE OF PLAY
De Gea is our biggest problem, and he has been for years.
De Gea's problem isn't the shot stopping, or the fact that he's prone to the occasional clanger.
Every single goalkeeper is prone to that, even the very best like Allison and Ederson.
The problem is much bigger than that.

He is the root of the entire issue of why we struggle to control games, and dominate possession. It all starts with him, and he gives away the ball all the time. We are without any chance to sustain control of the game against the better sides, when we have a goalkeeper who is unable to effectively recycle possession. It's like trying to play tennis with a smartphone.

De Gea will boot the ball into the opposition 9/10 times. Right there, we are losing an insane amount of possession.
And whenever we win it back, we hoof it to Rashford, who loses it frequently.
That's a hopeless tactic to sustain over a 38 game season, if we want to win the league.
It wastes too much energy, and sees us chasing the ball half the time, instead of controlling the game.

And that's without mentioning his complete lack of commanding the box and picking up dangerous crosses and high balls.
He is statistically and anecdotally one of the the biggest liability for chances against in all of Europe's top 5 leagues because of this and his lack of ability on the ball.
We have one of the very worst possible goalkeeper for a possession based football side.
And at the same time, he is the best paid goalkeeper of all time, ever.
It's a catastrophic combo.

Teams like City, Liverpool, Arsenal and Brighton all average 60-65 percent possession throughout the entire season.
This means they effectively control their games most of the time, while also minimizing chances against, and maximizing chances created.
You can not concede if you have control.
And, you can't score when you don't have the ball.

Not to mention how much energy we waste trying to constantly regain possession.
No wonder we're often tired in the second half.
The team who has the ball always uses less energy.

How do the best teams do this? Simple, really...
They have a goalkeeper and a back four who can play and pass off the press and are press resistant.

A lot of fans want us to challenge and improve de Gea, by bringing in a better no2.
But, if you think bringing in competition will significantly improve de Gea, you're missing the essential point.
Alas, it worked for Luke Shaw, some might say?

Yes, that worked because Shaw is inherently technically gifted and a great footballer with the ball in his feet, but is prone to motivational problems.

De Gea, on the other hand, lacks the technical and tactical acumen of a modern goalkeeper required to play possession based football.
No amount of "competition" can ever change that. In fact, at his age, no amount of coaching can significantly change that either.
When was the last time you saw a 30+ year old goalkeeper dramatically change his game? Hardly ever, if not never.

On top of all of this, sticking with de Gea means that we will continue to be:
1) Extremely susceptible to conceding chances and goals against on crosses and set pieces, because De Gea does not command his box.
He is scared and weak in aerial duels, and teams who cross are a constant threat.
We also lose so much possession by then having to clear the ball, because our keeper can't come out and claim it.
2) Weak and scared in 1v1.
He will never throw himself at the feet of attackers, to prevent them getting a shot off.
Instead, he will adapt this ludicrous hockey style stance by going down on one knee, effectively pinning him to the ground and becoming static, making him easy to score against.
3) Lacking in communication and directing his back line.
This spreads insecurity across the entire back line, and often leads to confusion.
A good keeper will always yell and show defenders where the best passing lanes are.

If you want him to stay, you clearly don't see why Ederson make City so dominant in possession, and why City are so dominant inside their own box, which then leads to them being dominant further up the pitch.
Yes, it's because their entire team is great in possession and press resistant. But without a solid backline and goalkeeper who also are just as good in possession, with passing, and being press resistant, it won't really matter that much if the midfield and attackers are.

The pro-De Gea agenda is mostly based on pure nostalgic love for his beautiful saves, and his time spent at the club.
Truth is, he is the exact same keeper he always was.
He has always had these weaknesses ever since he was at Atletico Madrid, and he will never change.
Even Spain's national team understand his glaring weaknesses will prevent them from playing modern football, and therefore he is not even considered good enough to be their third choice goalkeeper.
Add to all of this: He is the best paid goalkeeper in the history of football, and is a giant money sink for our club.
Even on his newly reduced wages at 200 000 GBP a week... Simply a terrible choice to want him to stay, in every conceivable way, including financially.

HOW REPLACING DE GEA WOULD DRASTICALLY IMPROVE OUR ATTACKING FOOTBALL, AND OVERALL PLAY
Replacing De Gea with a goalkeeper who can effectively recycle possession, means that we will have much more of the ball, which in turn means we can create more chances than if we don't have possession.
Then, you later add to that by replacing outfield players who are wasteful in possession, and finally add a quality striker.

Build from the back, and you will gain control of the games much faster. Always start by building from the back, and preferrably, with your goalkeeper and centre backs.

Build from the front, like many are suggesting, and we end up with a quality striker like Kane or Osimhen, who will then not even get the ball that much.
That's the exaxt same problem we've had with all of our strikers since after van Persie.
De Gea is by far our biggest problem and liability when it comes to controlling possession and dominating games, which eventually leads to chance creation and scoring.

De Gea boots the ball long so many times every game, that our midfield and attackers inevitably end up chasing the opponent.
It also adds to the problem of players getting tired and more injury prone, because of all the needless high energy running they have to do out of possession.

I'm not suggesting that simply replacing de Gea, whilst ignoring the need for better attacking players, will fix our issues of scoring goals. It won't.
But it would be the very first step to ensure that our attacking players actually have the chance to create more, by ensuring progression of possession -- from the back lines, to the front.

You can add prime Ronaldo, prime Kane, prime Henry, and prime Rashford to this team.
But without a solid baseline with a goalkeeper that acts as that extra ball playing defender to create overloads in our defense, we can't reach that dominance in games that teams like City, Liverpool and at times, Brighton, can.

So, it should be pretty obvious exactly why replacing de Gea should be our main priority.
It improves us not only defensively, but also offensively.
It improves our overall play, and makes us more dominant and possessive of the ball.
We will strengthen our ability to control games, all over the pitch.
Then, you add that final piece of the puzzle, the world class striker.
That striker's chance of actually getting the ball in good positions can only improve if we have more possession.
And replacing de Gea is the very first step to ensure we gain more possession.

THE PROBLEM WITH AFFORDING A WORLD CLASS GOALKEEPER
Allison and Ederson
are today recognized as two of the very best goalkeepers in the world -- deservedly and rightfully so.
When Liverpool and Manchester City bought them, hardly anyone had even heard of them outside of their respective clubs' fanbases.
They were not considered anywhere near world class, outside of some well hidden metrics that no one was looking at, except the most fervent of stat-heads and scouting departments.
Well played Liverpool and City, that's some grade A scouting right there.

Barring we find a way to bring in almost a limitless cash flow (Qatar... that's another debate), or we do a Chelsea and tapdance our way around those FFP regulations, we might have to prioritize either a striker, or a goalkeeper.
Seeing as strikers are both:
a) Much harder to come by
b) More expensive


...It would be very wise to spend the money on a striker first. It's a gaping hole that everyone can agree needs to be filled. Arguably, we even need two new strikers.

The next move would then be to either do a proper worldie in the scouting market to find a fantastic, yet cheap, goalkeeper, something that our scouts never, ever do.
Our scouts landed on Wan-Bissaka as the best right back in the world out of a list of 800 potential targets. How? They obviously only looked at defensive stats to determine the worth of a full back based on a single skill trait: His 1v1 defending stats. Absolutely shocking scouting.

So, I don't trust our scouting department yet, even if it's been replaced. Maybe they can earn our trust this summer, but I reserve the right to not believe so.
Unless we can afford someone like Diogo Costa, or someone of similiar attributes, we can't just buy our way to a new number 1 this summer.
Many fans want want David Raya, and while good and a step up from de Gea, his passing and composure does actually leave a bit to be desired.

A POSSIBLE (SHORT-TERM) SOLUTION
Many of our fans don't rate (hate that word) Dean Henderson.
It's clear that they didn't really watch him at Sheffield United, in his back-to-back seasons.
He was their key player in securing promotion to the Premier League.
The following season, he was their key player in Sheffield United staying up by a comfortable margin.
He played every match that season in the Premier League, except of course for the two fixtures against United.
At the end of the season, he was among the top goalkeepers in the league across a wide variety of important metrics, even challenging the likes of Allison and Ederson.

When he then got a chance to fight against de Gea under Ole, he was only remembered for a couple of blunders. And yes, those were not good.
But, in his 26 games that season, he comfortably outperformed de Gea on almost every single stat, and conceded less than de Gea.
The defense -- which wasn't great, to be fair -- looked much more reassured and convincing when he played.
He made a string of world class saves, commanded his box, played out from the back more than de Gea, and was deservedly in the pipeline to be the starter for next season... then Covid hit. And it hit him hard. He contracted Long Covid, which kept him out of training for months.
De Gea was now back in goal, as there were no other viable options. He continued to play like he always does: Making beautiful saves, but not developing his awful attributes in every other area.

Henderson was loaned out again, this time to newly promoted Nottingham Forest. Quite frankly, one of the worst newly promoted teams we've seen in the Premier League the last decade, with a ramshackle squad consisting of no less than 23(!) new signings.

He still went on to become their most important player, consistently giving 8/10 performances. His matches against Spurs and Liverpool rank especially high.

Of course, Forest under Cooper have flat out refused to play out from the back, so his stats will not reflect his abilities with his feet, as he is forced to boot it long almost every single time.
But he kept delivering, and was at the start of the season after 10 rounds, among the top performing goalkeepers in the league.

Then injury hit, and Navas was brought in as an emergency replacement. It was estimated he would be back in March/April, and Cooper even said he would then be their no1 again, despite Navas still being at the club.
Navas is not a bad keeper, and has had a fantastic career. He is very athletic and energetic. But he is not doing well in the Premier League. He initially made some cracking saves, which is his game. But he is not enough of a presence with his small stature, and limited horizontal and vertical reach.

Henderson has now undergone surgery, and is likely to be fit for the pre-season, or at least in August.
Spending nothing on a new keeper, while allocating funds to a striker and perhaps a midfielder, seems like the smarter move.
I'd give him the next season to prove his worth, and let him be the no1 choice throughout, without a sulking de Gea breathing down his neck.
For those who don't think Henderson can hack it, my bet is you'll be comfortably surprised.
Those who have actually followed his career, and regularly watched his game (not just clips on YouTube or MOTD), know how good he is.

THE NOT-SO-IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT PISS SOME FANS OFF, BUT REALLY SHOULDN'T MATTER

I can understand some fans having reservations based on rumours that he was one of the leaks in the dressing room.
Might I remind you that there have been actually no proof of this.
What we do know is that the team line-ups are still leaking this season, and it is surely not Henderson leaking that.
We can assume Pogba leaked like a sieve, at least according to his brother and agent, who frequently spoke of United's inner operations in the media.
The only definitive proof of leaks we have is that Lingard was definitely leaking, because Scholes effectively outed him live on BT Sports.

There have been a ton of rumours that Rashford was among those who leaked, with a powerful PR team behind him. Countless stories of Rashford being dissatisfied with managers emerged on a yearly basis, and eventually led to Ole having to apologize and rescind some comments he had made about Rashford's focus due to his charity work.

Again, these claims are unsubstantiated. But no one gives Rashford any grief for it. So let's give the same nod to Henderson, another one of our youth products that we should be proud of, and has never had any substantiated claims of leaking anything against him.

He is the first actual goalkeeper in many years who has come through our academy, and developed into a quality Premier League goalkeeper.

Some fans will also have a thorn in their side because of his interview.
I watched the interview back then and right now before writing this, and I saw nothing wrong with it. He is being honest, and calling out Ole as a man manager. I would be just as pissed and open about it if I was him, and I undoubtedly still love our club.
After all we've heard from other players and sources regarding Solskjaer's man management, I am inclined to believe this.

Not to mention, if half of our fanbase can look past Mason Greenwood's... ehm, issues.
Then surely the majority of our fanbase can see past an interview with an angry Henderson calling out Ole.
And if not, good riddance.
One of the best post I read in a while. The reason noone reacts to it is because its too hard to argue against.
 

johnnyteutonic

Full Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2023
Messages
296
Location
Melbourne, Australia
The data science strategy will be implemented and we're of course late to the party, over a decade late in comparison to Liverpool. Liverpool's strategy in that regard came about after they hired Damien Comolli, who was formerly of Spurs and he brought over the data science team working for Spurs to Liverpool. Even Michael Edwards who was brought to Spurs by Harry Redknapp, ended up at Liverpool to work under Comolli. Comolli was sacked a short while after but his past association with Spurs provided FSG the tools to evolve their recruitment structure backed up by a data science strategy, which took a few years to evolve and and it peaked under Klopp after much criticism in the early years.

So far we have Dominic Jordan and Alex Kleyn (joins at the start of next seaso n) who are confirmed. With more personnel expected to join the aforementioned two.

Ten years late to the party is absolutely shocking. Thanks for the background info - I wasn't aware of the connection between Spurs' setup and Liverpool's one.
Based on what you're saying w/r/t to hires, it sounds like the wheels are turning very slowly. It seems as though Jordan was hired in early October 2021, yet we're only hiring a 2nd
person almost 2 years later!?
 

MadDogg

Full Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
15,972
Location
Manchester Utd never lose, just run out of time
Yeah. The percentile is for their respective league, where Madrid was expected to dominate the game most of the time. But i don't recall Navas was famous as sweeper Gk, but more of agility type, ala DDG.

Anyway, I'm still not convinced that Gk is the cause of us to not playing defensive highline, or even attacking possession football this season. I don't think having any Gk in all era would turn us into that type this season.

Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't upgrade DDG.
The percentile is when compared to all players in their position in the top five leagues, not just their own league. So even a player who isn't particularly noted as playing that way is still doing it far more often than De Gea.

No goalkeeper is going to single-handedly change our entire system (no single player in any position would), but it's as important as any others in moving towards that. Considering we have a player who is amongst the worst around in those attributes that contribute to being able to play a high line, it's one of the easiest upgrades we could make for those skills as literally well over 50% of all keepers out there (not just top keepers, but all keepers playing in the top 5 leagues) are better at it.
 

Desert Eagle

Punjabi Dude
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
17,258
In dev's world it does!
His compliments to De Gea are he's decent and he's very decent!

He's washed and even his defenders are starting to wake up to it. Henderson is so shit but somehow did better than de gea in every single metric when playing for us.

We need to bin this guy. He's the biggest coward I've ever seen play for this club and has cost us more than every other keeper we've had combined. The contract given to him by Woodward was criminal and we shouldn't give him a pound more. Release him on a free at the end of the season.

Great post ifightdragons.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.