Sir Robert Charlton

Floyd

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You lost me at Gerrard...
I didn't mention quality, did I? Playing style and position I said.

I just knew some morons would get their knickers in a twist when I mentioned Gerrard. :rolleyes:
 

Classical Mechanic

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Watch the 68 European Cup final. Best got all the hype but Sir Bobby scored two really well taken goals you would expect from a top class centre forward.
 

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I love watching clips of his goals, some thunderbolts.
 

Floyd

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I love watching clips of his goals, some thunderbolts.
Interestingly, it seems like he preferred using his left when running with the ball, before smashing in into the top corner with his right. :drool:
 

charlton66

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Interestingly, it seems like he preferred using his left when running with the ball, before smashing in into the top corner with his right. :drool:
He started off as a left winger.
 

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Lots of votes for him in this thread:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-greatest-manchester-united-player.426607/page-2#post-20490091

For you oldies who've seen him play, how was he like? Was he what we now refer to as an "8" or was he a "10"? Any recent players he reminds you of when it comes to playing style, and position? From the little I've seen I'm thinking Gerrard but I could be way off.
Gerrard is an awful comparison - Charlton was much better technically and, most importantly, had impecable understanding of the game - while you can argue than tactical naiveness was always Gerrard's biggest weakness. They only thing they share are they goalscoring records.

He began career as an inside forward, scoring for fun (71 goal over 3 seasons from 58 to 61), then was hailed as arguably the best outside left (left winger) in the 1962 World Cup, but his peak was as a creative (and goalscoring) central midfield playmaker. He is usually shoehorned as a #10 in all sorts of all-time XIs but he was much more than that, and the fact that he spent most of his career in midfield makes his goalscoring records for England and United absolutely unique.

Match compilations from 1966:
Semi-final against Eusebio's Portugal
Final against Beckenbauer's Germany (btw, notice how Beckenbauer #4 is always near Charlton when he gets the ball)

Not sure who of today's players can be compared to him. Pogba has technical attributes to become someone similar, actually, although probably not as good, and there's also a mental side of the game, in which Pogba is vastly inferior. Add to that ball-carrying skills and elegance of Micky
 
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Floyd

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Gerrard is an awful comparison - Charlton was much better technically and, most importantly, had impecable understanding of the game - while you can argue than tactical naiveness was always Gerrard's biggest weakness. They only thing they share are they goalscoring records.

He began career as an inside forward, scoring for fun (71 goal over 3 seasons from 58 to 61), then was hailed as arguably the best outside left (left winger) in the 1962 World Cup, but his peak was as a creative (and goalscoring) central midfield playmaker. He is usually shoehorned as a #10 in all sorts of all-time XIs but he was much more than that, and the fact that he spent most of his career in midfield makes his goalscoring records for England and United absolutely unique.

Match compilations from 1966:
Semi-final against Eusebio's Portugal
Final against Beckenbauer's Germany

Not sure who of today's players can be compared to him. Pogba has technical attributes to become someone similar, actually, although probably not as good, and there's also a mental side of the game, in which Pogba is vastly inferior. Add to that ball-carrying skills and elegance of Micky
Thanks for taking your time writing this nice post. Good shout about Charlton's ball-carrying-skills, it looks very Mhkitarian-esque.
 

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Although he often wore the 9 shirt it would be totally misleading to thing of him as a striker. Personally I reckon you could best describe his position as 'playing in the hole'. Mind you his heading ability was almost non existent and you would never be describe him as a tackler. He did however have a marvellous engine and his change of pace was electrifying. He would just give that proverbial dip of a shoulder and off he'd go. It appeared effortless the way he seemed able to simply glide past defenders. It really was breathtaking to watch when he was in his prime. Best of all however is that he was genuinely two footed favouring neither right nor left - mores the pity that there are few players today who have that genuine talent. He did sometimes get criticised in the 60's for what was considered to be 'hollywood' passing - the 30/40 yard ones but having said that he was a genuinely good passer.

Of course its impossible to say how he would fare in todays game and really that does not matter. All I know is that It was a privilege to see him play. Ah they were the days but then again every generation end up saying that.;)
 

Floyd

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Although he often wore the 9 shirt it would be totally misleading to thing of him as a striker. Personally I reckon you could best describe his position as 'playing in the hole'. Mind you his heading ability was almost non existent and you would never be describe him as a tackler. He did however have a marvellous engine and his change of pace was electrifying. He would just give that proverbial dip of a shoulder and off he'd go. It appeared effortless the way he seemed able to simply glide past defenders. It really was breathtaking to watch when he was in his prime. Best of all however is that he was genuinely two footed favouring neither right nor left - mores the pity that there are few players today who have that genuine talent. He did sometimes get criticised in the 60's for what was considered to be 'hollywood' passing - the 30/40 yard ones but having said that he was a genuinely good passer.

Of course its impossible to say how he would fare in todays game and really that does not matter. All I know is that It was a privilege to see him play. Ah they were the days but then again every generation end up saying that.;)
He did score with a great header in the 68' final. :)

Interesting to read though, thanks.

You mention his prime, when was that, was that around 66, when he was 28/29?
 

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Saw a lot of his mates die in a plane crash which traumatized him. Within a decade had won everything in the game and became the leading goalscorer for club and country, winning the World Cup and European Cup on the way. I dont give a feck how many goals anyone else scores, the character of Charlton as a player is there in black and white. Just a ridiculous career.

As for his heading ability, probably a blessing considering the amount of players from that era who suffered problems due to heading the ball. That ball was stupidly heavy.
 

harms

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You mention his prime, when was that, was that around 66, when he was 28/29?
Yeah. Probably between 1964 and 1968. Ballon D'Or ratings for clearer picture - 1965 5th, 1966 winner, 1967 2nd, 1968 2nd.
 

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Fair to say that he was the heart and soul of the club for quite a few years.

I first saw him pre-Munich when he was an ' inside left ' and although he was still young, he wasn't really on the same level as some of the other youngsters such as Eddie Colman, David Pegg and of course Duncan Edwards. He could, however, score spectacular goals.

The season post-Munich, he was, by default, one of our senior players with Dennis Violet, Harry Gregg and Bill Foulkes even though still quite young and maybe it was these circumstances which caused him to become well known and almost a ' personality ' as he became an England regular as an ' inside left '. Around that time, we bought Albert Quixall from Sheff Wednesday and he and Sir Bobby were as good a pair of ' inside forwards ' as anywhere in the league. And it was about this time that he started to get his reputation for scoring from long range with ' thunderbolts '

After that, there was a spell when he was used almost as an ' outside left ' and although he was never really fast, it seemed to suit him and that went on for another couple of years. Although his goal ratio dipped a bit, he was still oor top scorer or second top scorer between the early 60s and the arrival of Denis Law.

His rise to Global Superstar really started when Denis and Pat Crerand joined us and he had switched back to basically an attacking midfielder. Add George Best a couple of years after that, and we became a fantastic team - Foulkes and Stiles at the back; Crerand and Charlton midfield; Law and Best up front. By then, he was playing the best football of his career - combining a midfielder's energy and work rate with a regular supply of goals. I don't recall any tap-ins, not too many headers, but usually hard hit shots from either outside or just inside the penalty area. His two goals in the 68 win over Benfica were, in fact, both very untypical Bobby Charlton goals.

The really strange thing is that throughout his career with us, he was always much more loved and appreciated by England football fans rather than United supporters, although we always did have a soft spot and appreciation of his talents. I guess he just lacked the superstar charisma of Denis and George.

As the 68 team began to unravel, his form started to dip as he found himself surrounded by players of much lesser quality and I remember his final days at OT were in a midfield of himself, winger-turned-midfielder Willie Morgan, and all-round journeyman Alan Gowling. Not Charlton's fault, but week after week we were terrible and getting worse and, of course, we eventually got relegated with a team that really did deserve to be relegated. And in the end, there was a feeling that he hung on at OT a bit too long and his final couple of seasons he was fairly ineffectual and holding back promising youth players. A lesson there for Wayne R, perhaps....

Whatever, he is a genuine United Legend of course, but, more importantly to me, has always been modest about his career as one of history's best players. An all round classy person.

And best of all, he's probably as big a United Fan as most of us who post on here.
 

arthurka

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I didn't mention quality, did I? Playing style and position I said.

I just knew some morons would get their knickers in a twist when I mentioned Gerrard. :rolleyes:
I knew I would get these reactions mentioning Gerrard...:D
 

dave1956

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Fair to say that he was the heart and soul of the club for quite a few years.

I first saw him pre-Munich when he was an ' inside left ' and although he was still young, he wasn't really on the same level as some of the other youngsters such as Eddie Colman, David Pegg and of course Duncan Edwards. He could, however, score spectacular goals.

The season post-Munich, he was, by default, one of our senior players with Dennis Violet, Harry Gregg and Bill Foulkes even though still quite young and maybe it was these circumstances which caused him to become well known and almost a ' personality ' as he became an England regular as an ' inside left '. Around that time, we bought Albert Quixall from Sheff Wednesday and he and Sir Bobby were as good a pair of ' inside forwards ' as anywhere in the league. And it was about this time that he started to get his reputation for scoring from long range with ' thunderbolts '

After that, there was a spell when he was used almost as an ' outside left ' and although he was never really fast, it seemed to suit him and that went on for another couple of years. Although his goal ratio dipped a bit, he was still oor top scorer or second top scorer between the early 60s and the arrival of Denis Law.

His rise to Global Superstar really started when Denis and Pat Crerand joined us and he had switched back to basically an attacking midfielder. Add George Best a couple of years after that, and we became a fantastic team - Foulkes and Stiles at the back; Crerand and Charlton midfield; Law and Best up front. By then, he was playing the best football of his career - combining a midfielder's energy and work rate with a regular supply of goals. I don't recall any tap-ins, not too many headers, but usually hard hit shots from either outside or just inside the penalty area. His two goals in the 68 win over Benfica were, in fact, both very untypical Bobby Charlton goals.

The really strange thing is that throughout his career with us, he was always much more loved and appreciated by England football fans rather than United supporters, although we always did have a soft spot and appreciation of his talents. I guess he just lacked the superstar charisma of Denis and George.

As the 68 team began to unravel, his form started to dip as he found himself surrounded by players of much lesser quality and I remember his final days at OT were in a midfield of himself, winger-turned-midfielder Willie Morgan, and all-round journeyman Alan Gowling. Not Charlton's fault, but week after week we were terrible and getting worse and, of course, we eventually got relegated with a team that really did deserve to be relegated. And in the end, there was a feeling that he hung on at OT a bit too long and his final couple of seasons he was fairly ineffectual and holding back promising youth players. A lesson there for Wayne R, perhaps....

Whatever, he is a genuine United Legend of course, but, more importantly to me, has always been modest about his career as one of history's best players. An all round classy person.

And best of all, he's probably as big a United Fan as most of us who post on here.
An excellent summing up of a truly great player. Remember one of his thunderbolts. Chest height and the keeper clutched it to his chest, buyt such was the power that it carried keeper and ball back over the goal line.
 

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I've always wanted to know. Before his debut did he really to look at the stadium and get told buy a copper to go on after he said I'm playing here tomorrow?
I'm not sure about that one, but I know for a fact Duncan Edwards used to ride his bike to the game, chain it up outside the ground and then ride home after he was done.
 

MrPooni

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I've always viewed Sir Bobby as an amalgamation of Lampard, Gerrard and Scholes' best traits if you want to go down that route. Of course that's based entirely on anecdotal evidence so I could be completely off the mark too but that's the risk you run in threads like this, there's always a chance people will deify a legendary player beyond recognition.
 

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I've always viewed Sir Bobby as an amalgamation of Lampard, Gerrard and Scholes' best traits if you want to go down that route. Of course that's based entirely on anecdotal evidence so I could be completely off the mark too but that's the risk you run in threads like this, there's always a chance people will deify a legendary player beyond recognition.
He was a better player than then all though. Just the man to man against Germany's best. England shit the bed after he went off. Ask the ones (Scholes,Lampard,Gerrard) couldn't have lived with the Kaiser.
Bobby had him locked down.
 

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I'm not sure about that one, but I know for a fact Duncan Edwards used to ride his bike to the game, chain it up outside the ground and then ride home after he was done.
Just to add that this was before the days when cycling was a hobby - cycling was almost a necessity to get anywhere where there was no bus route.

And the story is that after one match at OT which we'd lost, Duncan ( by then an England international ) was stopped by a policeman as he rode home on his bike and fined 10 shillings ( nowadays, 50p ) for not having lights on it !!!
 

jackofalltrades

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A dirty sod. He went into the ref's book in one game:eek:

At kick off in the mid/late 60s I seem to remember it was Charlton in the centre and Best and Law on either side, not in all games though, as Best also started on the wing. Seeing Law, Charlton Best in the programme teamsheet used to be a delight.

I have a VHS video of a documentary which I think is called The Football Men (can't watch it nowadays) and he explains how he walked into town and paid for some of the players to go into the flicks with his first wage. Spent it all on that. Another anecdote from that is how frightened Edward's mother was because the team were going to play in a communist country and how she wouldn't let him buy a motorbike - too dangerous !

He also did his share of charity work and he came to our local church on Whit Lane one year.
 
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nobby the legend

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Paul Scholes is the footballer who resembled the most Sir Bobby IMHO from the recent generations. But Bobby was a gentleman - I don't remember a red card, better as attacking midfielder, taller and bolder :)
 

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In the 99 final Beckham dropped his shoulder and ran with the ball towards the end (maybe to get the first of the last two corners?) that I thought was brilliant.

Years later I got the 68' final on DVD, watched it and Saw Sir Bobby do something very very similar (and better) and was amazed. Not that I'm comparing the two players, just seemed to strike a chord with me weirdly.
 

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About 20 years ago I was one of the photographers for the Bobby Charlton Sports school. He used to make sure he went around the groups, and spent a good half hour with each, doing some coaching himself. One time he was with a group of about 14/15 year olds, and some of them clearly didn't know his history (fans from other clubs who were as much there for the United connection as the Sir Bobby). He was talking about striking the ball and you could see some of them were about sceptical about his advice. As he walked away smiling a ball from another group came near him. Quick as a flash he turned and struck the ball into the back of the net. The speed, accuracy and force behind the strike was incredible. I looked at the lads who'd been sceptical and they were just stood there mouths open.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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Walter Crickmer started it all...
In the 1980's he played for our youth team in the Blue Stars Tournament. It was a friendly match and his name was A. Newman on the line-up.

A few of the United juniors were taking the piss a little when he was giving advice...so he got the ball, beat 2/3 opponents and smashed the ball into the net from 30 yards.

Everyone in the ground was astonished.

He then told our lads to get back into position. Every one of them did exactly as they were told for the rest of the game.

He was over 55years old.

Form is temporary...class is permanent.

He had the lot and could play anywhere...although as other people have mentioned his heading and tackling were weak points of his game. He was incredibly athletic and very fast contrary to some comments above. In speed sessions at the club in the early 1960's only Tony Dunne beat him in sprints.

He scored hundreds of goals for the juniors at inside-forward and centre-forward and played up front until about 1959/60 when his form dropped and Busby put him on the wing. England then did the same. He played as an orthodox winger from about 1960-1965 when Alf Ramsey moved him into midfield and United followed suit.

Because he didn't really have a physical game you can't really compare him to the likes of Gerrard or Robson but his passing was as good as Scholes if not better...but much more dynamic than Scholes.

I wouldn't like to compare him to anyone.
 

Floyd

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In the 1980's he played for our youth team in the Blue Stars Tournament. It was a friendly match and his name was A. Newman on the line-up.

A few of the United juniors were taking the piss a little when he was giving advice...so he got the ball, beat 2/3 opponents and smashed the ball into the net from 30 yards.

Everyone in the ground was astonished.

He then told our lads to get back into position. Every one of them did exactly as they were told for the rest of the game.

He was over 55years old.

Form is temporary...class is permanent.
:eek::lol:

That's a fantastic story, thanks for sharing.
 

harms

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About 20 years ago I was one of the photographers for the Bobby Charlton Sports school. He used to make sure he went around the groups, and spent a good half hour with each, doing some coaching himself. One time he was with a group of about 14/15 year olds, and some of them clearly didn't know his history (fans from other clubs who were as much there for the United connection as the Sir Bobby). He was talking about striking the ball and you could see some of them were about sceptical about his advice. As he walked away smiling a ball from another group came near him. Quick as a flash he turned and struck the ball into the back of the net. The speed, accuracy and force behind the strike was incredible. I looked at the lads who'd been sceptical and they were just stood there mouths open.
Reminds me of the Best/Puskas story
edit - Mr. Puskas
 

mark_a

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A decent tribute by MUTV for him: http://www.manutd.com/en/History/Th...o-tribute-messages-to-sir-bobby-charlton.aspx

With Bobby, you always hear that he remained down to earth and I know how kind & considerate he was to the United scout who discovered him and made sure he came to United, Joe Armstrong. Not least because Joe was my Grandad. He made sure he mentioned him in his Ballon D'or speech, always referred to him as "Uncle Joe" and made a lot of effort to see him when Joe had retired and was ill in the early 70s. There's nothing apocryphal in stories of Bobby being a good man.

For a man who's abilities were so far into the stratosphere, his feet remained on the ground, and I think his honest, down-to-earth manner & loyalty to his team mates, club & the game itself are what elevate him to being the greatest. I know Bobby himself always defers being the best to Duncan Edwards, but that itself speaks volumes. And of course the icing on the cake is the 1966 World Cup and the 1968 European Cup.
 

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I love Sir Bobby. He's one of my favourite players to watch. I'm way too young to have seen him play live, but I have seen plenty of clips and old footage of full matches just to see him and the likes of Best, Law, Aston, etc. He's like a mix of Scholes and Iniesta from what I've seen. His striking of the ball reminds me of Scholes (those thunderbolt goals!) and his close ball control and dribbling is similar to Iniesta's in the way that, from a standing still position, his acceleration and the way he turned his body whilst remaining in full control of the ball to evade opposition players was incredible. I wish I could've seen more of him.

I could be wrong about his style of play from my limited viewing of him and team itself, so if the likes of @charlton66 , @Full bodied red , @Moriarty , @Mr. MUJAC who actually watched him didn't see him as that type of player, feel free to correct me. :)