So Jose Was Right?

432JuanMata

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While I hated his football and his throw the toys out of the pram attitude he didn’t rate Martial either Rashford, called Shaw lazy, overweight and then Pogba was a virus. All seem to be close to true now.

While Jose might of been the wrong choice and threw his toys out of the pram in the 3rd summer transfer window as he didn’t get what he wanted he did prove we chose players over manager and if that happens this summer we are screwed.

Whoever the manager is he needs to be considered the right man and put ahead of players no matter what
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Those same players also saved his job against Newcastle.

So it's ironic.
 

432JuanMata

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Those same players also saved his job against Newcastle.

So it's ironic.
That is one match though. I’m not saying Jose was the right man as I feel he wasn’t but the point I made is that the players weren’t good enough and he was right yet they were chose over the manager.

If that is to happen going forward we won’t go anywhere anytime soon
 

BaneIsPain

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Yes, he was right especially on the football heritage comment. Hard pill to swallow for some at the time, but it was true nevertheless.
 

RedDevilCanuck

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If he was backed, he'd play defensive football, buy tall and or fast players that follow instructions. We'd probably shite house an FA Cup.
 

432JuanMata

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If he was backed, he'd play defensive football, buy tall and or fast players that follow instructions. We'd probably shite house an FA Cup.
Not the point I was making with the thread though as I agree Jose was the wrong man but his principles were right.
The manager we hire in the summer if we class him as the the man to take us to the top we need to back him over players instead of the opposite
 

In Rainbows

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Some of you need to get over Mourinho being sacked. What is the point in even bringing him up these days? The guy is fighting for a Europa League spot in Serie A.
 

432JuanMata

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Some of you need to get over Mourinho being sacked. What is the point in even bringing him up these days? The guy is fighting for a Europa League spot in Serie A.
I made it not to praise Jose but to the fact we kept him on in the summer off his last season yet didn’t back him and reports he wanted to sell Martial and Ed blocked it.
If that is to happen say with ETH we are screwed as if we have faith in the manager then we need to 100% back him which we have failed to do
 

Jackal981

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He was right but it was also a right decision to sack him.
 

Mindhunter

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He was right but also wrong? If you throw shite at a wall, some of it will stick. No points to Jose for being a soothsayer. Also there are multiple instances in his career where he said the same shite about other players which turned out to be completely wrong in the long run.

Overall, he was a toxic and rigid dinosaur who believed that the world needs to bend to his will. You will not be successful in any professional if you don't have basic people management skills and have the ego the size of Mt. Everest.
 

Ish

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I made it not to praise Jose but to the fact we kept him on in the summer off his last season yet didn’t back him and reports he wanted to sell Martial and Ed blocked it.
If that is to happen say with ETH we are screwed as if we have faith in the manager then we need to 100% back him which we have failed to do
Jose was backed though? If after spending “x” million after a couple years and you throw said players you spent it on (Pogba), under the bus, you’re part of the problem. Not the solution. No denying he was right about some players, but he needed to go.

Fact is, you’re stating the OP like the manager wasn’t backed, when in fact, he was. We don’t have infinite time or resources to “back the manager”. We’re not city.
 

He'sRaldo

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He was wrong and it’s partly his fault we’re in this mess.

Had he bothered to develop his young players instead of throwing them all under the bus, they’d be much better players for us right now. We’ve allowed monumentally shite coaches to waste all the young talent we’ve bought/promoted, through literal years of subpar coaching.

That said, Jose is old news. That was a dire period and we need to stop being stuck in the past and move on.
 

Greck

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Guy spends 400m and 3 years taking us further off track. What kind of criteria allows you to be a big part of the problem and still be right?
 

lex talionis

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Fukking hell, José was not “right”. We had a thread on this very point a few weeks ago. The toxic twat brought in players who turned out to be a disgrace. Or should we bring back Sanchez because José was so “right”?
 

Sky1981

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He was right on the problem.
He was wrong on the solution.

We were wrong on the seeing the problem as well, whats a small tumor we see as pimple.
And we stupidly put acne oil instead of having the tumor removed.

Now we will need a major surgery to remove everything that's been infected, anything less than throwing shaw pogba rashford out would tamper the new batch.

They say in management the hardest thing to do is changing culture, the past 5 years we have developed a laid back culture without consequences even the likes of ronaldo seems to be infected. Will take us a while to get back with proper surgery, but if we keep on thinking it's just pimple and keep on pouring acne oil it'll be too late
 

Jim Beam

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Should have been sacked right after that Sevilla post conference If there was anyone in our board who listened and cared about it.
 

Slysi17

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He was right on the problem.
He was wrong on the solution.

We were wrong on the seeing the problem as well, whats a small tumor we see as pimple.
And we stupidly put acne oil instead of having the tumor removed.

Now we will need a major surgery to remove everything that's been infected, anything less than throwing shaw pogba rashford out would tamper the new batch.

They say in management the hardest thing to do is changing culture, the past 5 years we have developed a laid back culture without consequences even the likes of ronaldo seems to be infected. Will take us a while to get back with proper surgery, but if we keep on thinking it's just pimple and keep on pouring acne oil it'll be too late
For me its the last chance really with this managerial appointment. If the club get it wrong, I don't see a way back unless the owners sell up in that instance. 5 wrong managerial appointments while not giving them all freedom would be too much to come back from.
 

smi11ie

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If Utd can get rid of the lazier defeatist players and replace them with harder-working resilient pros then that would be a huge help to the incoming manager. I really hope Utd can perform some major surgery this summer and improve the team work ethic.

Jose was right but he didn't help improve team spirit.
 

FattyFooty

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He was wrong and it’s partly his fault we’re in this mess.

Had he bothered to develop his young players instead of throwing them all under the bus, they’d be much better players for us right now. We’ve allowed monumentally shite coaches to waste all the young talent we’ve bought/promoted, through literal years of subpar coaching.

That said, Jose is old news. That was a dire period and we need to stop being stuck in the past and move on.
We given our young players so much time to develop its insane. We played Rashford, Greenwood, Mctominay, Elanga, Lingaard, Blackett, McNair and some of them even got old here. And none of them has proven that they can be consistent at a top Premier League club.

If you want to become a top footballer, you cant blame one manager for beeing mean.

A football career is filled with ups and downs, if our young players cant deal with that. They cant really deal with top football either.

While Jose isnt the answer, but it certainly isnt that we havent given them time either. They just isnt that good. And alot of them was given way to high contracts before they where even close to deserving it.
 

Sky1981

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If Utd can get rid of the lazier defeatist players and replace them with harder-working resilient pros then that would be a huge help to the incoming manager. I really hope Utd can perform some major surgery this summer and improve the team work ethic.

Jose was right but he didn't help improve team spirit.
Circle of evil. New manager who wants to rid the bar apple would be sabotaged. Good manager that dont rid the bad apples would not go far, bad manager would pander to the bar apple to keep their job.

It's a simple problem if it's 1 or at most 2 player. But when it has spread to 3 or more players it's very hard to fix
 

kouroux

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That is one match though. I’m not saying Jose was the right man as I feel he wasn’t but the point I made is that the players weren’t good enough and he was right yet they were chose over the manager.

If that is to happen going forward we won’t go anywhere anytime soon
Yes but honestly everything was lined up for him to get sacked, if there ever was a game to down tools and get rid of him, it was that one.
 

smi11ie

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Circle of evil. New manager who wants to rid the bar apple would be sabotaged. Good manager that dont rid the bad apples would not go far, bad manager would pander to the bar apple to keep their job.

It's a simple problem if it's 1 or at most 2 player. But when it has spread to 3 or more players it's very hard to fix
I agree the new manager will have difficulty to achieve it himself. He will need help from the club, I hope Ralf will help him create a more competitive professional squad.
 

Andersonson

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Mourinho knows what kind of mentality is needed for big titles, doesn't matter if he managing Roma now or whatever. If you ain't good enough he's gonna let you know.

Pogba isn't the answer, neither is rashford, shaw, Darmian or the others he called out. He wasn't being backed in terms of being a contender, If you think that you think the current stock is good enough with the right manager. Which is wrong.
..
 

432JuanMata

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Why is he remembered for his virus comment on Pogba and not on buying him for a world record fee?
You can do that with every manager though. Ole with Maguire SAF with Veron. I’m not sticking up for Jose at the time I couldnt wait to see the back of him but he is right about certain players even though he was toxic too
 

Mercurial

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He likes players that follow instructions devoutly, old-school player mentality required. Evidently he was a mismatch for the team he built and took over and couldn't adapt to the disarray and recruited poorly, he lost his 2nd man that tapped out. His best days are gone and his style not what people ultimately wanted.

But sure with full backing he would get a more devout team, win something(s), perhaps leave an older/aged but less bitchy backbone. Also still had the best trophy yield post SAF, and also right call on a good few players attitude (he bought some of them).

With the board and owners being as they are and him being tight lipped afterwards, we will never fully know what happened behind the scenes. Mou, a known quantity, isn't a nurturing 10+ year coach and neither the board. He tackled the job less than elegantly given pretty free reigns, as evident by the fallout.

We are pretty much a hill coaches come to die on post SAF, unless something changes, the cycle will continue.
 

RedCurry

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He’s outdated as a football coach, but his reading of players’ mentality is second to none.
 

devilish

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United's biggest problem lies in the layer between CEO and manager. We take ages to take decisions (ex hiring and sacking managers), most of the decisions taken are wrong (we keep switching to different football styles which makes most of the team built redundant), we overpay in terms of salaries and fees, we keep signing the wrong players and our player staff turnout is ridiculously low which means that we're forced to give contract extensions to players that don't deserve it. This leads to complacency as we end up needing our players more then they need us. There's no fear of losing the job as United are unable to buy 7-8 players per summer to replace the amount of deadwood we've got swiftly.

If you ask me we need to change everything in that bracket. I'd say bring a new sporting director, sack the DOF and bring someone else and hire an experienced head of recruitment. Rangnick, Campos and Mitchell are the first to come in mind.
 

Beans

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While I hated his football and his throw the toys out of the pram attitude he didn’t rate Martial either Rashford, called Shaw lazy, overweight and then Pogba was a virus. All seem to be close to true now.

While Jose might of been the wrong choice and threw his toys out of the pram in the 3rd summer transfer window as he didn’t get what he wanted he did prove we chose players over manager and if that happens this summer we are screwed.

Whoever the manager is he needs to be considered the right man and put ahead of players no matter what
Rashford can be very effective in a counter attack. But pretty much he was right.

Problem is, the club weren’t prepared to clear the team out.

Anyway I’m glad Jose is gone I don’t want to watch his football.
 

NoPace

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For me its the last chance really with this managerial appointment. If the club get it wrong, I don't see a way back unless the owners sell up in that instance. 5 wrong managerial appointments while not giving them all freedom would be too much to come back from.
Nah, the club is too rich and big to fail unless somehow the Glazers sell it to someone who won't spend at all and just wants to get revenue in and sell it off in a few years or something insane I can't predict. Though if there's a European super league you can't rule out us being relegated from it.
 

Greck

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Lukaku for example is failing hard at Chelsea. This is one of the players Jose swore by and made front and center of his team. Right mentality my butt, it was two sides of the same shite coin. People want to just gloss over the fact he was giving favoritism to certain players and made them above having to earn their starting position. Entitlement culture and locker room favouritism started with him. Ole was in turn right to move Jose's players, getting one thing doesn't remove you from the problem, not when you're this deeply embedded in the cause.
 
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stw2022

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Those same players also saved his job against Newcastle.

So it's ironic.
It isn’t really. Part of the reason behind the decline has been how we ignore form and think a one off performance or goal is proof of how good a player is and why we should ignore what’s sometimes months and months of awfulness


Basically be shit all season, pop up with a goal and at least half the Caf will gloat that it ‘shuts the haters up’
 

MadDogg

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Players, especially young players, need leadership to help produce a good working environment and dressing room culture. That will help develop their own mental strength and help them react properly when things go wrong.

If you have a toxic culture throughout your workplace it is going to destroy morale and confidence, and cause performance levels to drop. That's true in any workplace, but especially so for anything that requires physical attributes at an elite level. Small percentages are so important at this level that even a small drop in performance levels are massively important.

Jose played a huge part in developing that terrible dressing room culture, spending two and a half seasons throwing players under the bus and going out of his way to destroy the confidence of half his players so he could be 'proven right'. He didn't care about the players, he didn't care about the club, his priority was avoiding as much blame for the problems as he could. And he was more than happy to do this publicly for the world to see (the disgraceful scenes of him deliberately waiting for the media to be there before stripping a confused Pogba of the vice-captaincy on the training ground). Then Ole came in and went to the opposite extreme, blowing smoke up everyone's arse and not actually developing a constructive and strong mentality. Five and a half years between these two, half of some players top flight careers. It's left a group of players who are incredibly mentally fragile, who can look good when things are going well but the instant things go poorly they fall apart.

Some players are naturally that mentally weak. For instance, I'm not sure if even Fergie would have been able to get the best out of Martial. But the reality is that most players will move towards the average of the team. If you drop 90% of players into the mess that we currently have, after a while they will end up looking like they are a problem as well. Rashford is probably the best example - if he'd spent most of his career with a manager and a dressing room that promoted a strong culture and mentality, it's highly unlikely he'd look like the lazy, can't-be-bothered player that he currently appears. Whether it's too late for him to change or if he's now stuck in his ways is one of the more interesting things to find out going forward.

The question is how easily can it be turned around when things have gotten as bad as it has? Personally it's a huge reason I think we need a significant rebuild. Bring in five or six decent players with a good mentality to go along with the new manager, while letting a similar amount of players leave, and it'll allow us to completely reset the dressing room culture. The new manager and players can set the new 'normal', and the players who remain will hopefully lift to that level.
 

Lecland07

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He was right but also wrong? If you throw shite at a wall, some of it will stick. No points to Jose for being a soothsayer. Also there are multiple instances in his career where he said the same shite about other players which turned out to be completely wrong in the long run.

Overall, he was a toxic and rigid dinosaur who believed that the world needs to bend to his will. You will not be successful in any professional if you don't have basic people management skills and have the ego the size of Mt. Everest.
But it seems all of it is sticking - that wall has been expertly plastered now.

I don't see any problem with bringing this up, considering how ardent people were about Mourinho being wrong. Turned out that that was not the case in the slightest with these players. These players have no will power - it showed with how upset they got with criticism during Mourinho's time. They could not take it and threw their toys out of the pram. They have constantly refused to take any blame, and the fans aided in this during that time.

It is pretty clear, despite people putting all the blame on Mourinho at the time, that the players played a far bigger role than people were willing to admit back then. This was particularly the case after the short period directly after Mourinho was sacked. They wanted to show him, but got bored of that and resorted to the norm after about 2 months.

It just showed a refusal to see the obvious at the time: the players have always been a problem.