Valencia over Rafael? Are you touched in the head?
So the 3-5-2
- Thread starter Ole's_toe_poke
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I'd also prefer Rafael. Though I have a feeling Valencia will be first choice (as a wing back) not a full back, mostly down to stamina, in the 3-5-2. As I said in my original post, this is what I think we might see, not what I would want.
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Why would Valencia be more suitable as a wingback than Rafael?
Because... I can't even think of one single reason why Valencia could be better than Rafael.
Stamina. That's about it. Though as a wing back that's arguably the most important attribute to have.
Stamina? It's a game if football, not the London marathon.
Valencia should have a sponsorship deal with TEFLON.
Yes, I'm quite aware of that but when you're playing as a wing back in such a system, stamina is extremely important, more-so than any other position on the pitch. No need to get on my back. I'm just stating my guess as to what I think we'll see. By no means do I consider Valencia a better all round footballer than Rafael, and especially not in any other system that uses full backs.
Rafael is a right back who is used to running up and down the wing when he plays. He constantly makes those forward runs overlapping the winger. Im pretty sure he will be fine in the stamina department.
No matter the formation, I keep seeing Valencia as our only realistic out let from the right. You can only hope Rafa comes back and is fit for the whole season.
I agree. More important than pace for a full back IMO.
I just dont see why Van Gaal would be committed to us playing with 3 at the back, it isnt an important component of his "philosophy", it isnt something he has played with often in his career and he has not been such a strong advocate of the system that he stands to lose face by abandoning it. He said our squad lacked balance and we had too many number 10s and not enough - or perhaps insufficient quality - defenders and defensive midfielders. He has now at least partially rectified that. With the new additions he has made he has various other options he didnt have before which he can now experiment with. If he can find a shape the players are more comfortable with, enabling them to focus on learning how he wants to play (again, distinguishing, as he does, between the formation and the philosophy, which are two entirely different things) it would make a lot of sense to do that.
Maybe he sees learning the 3 at the back system as a useful case study in tactical flexibility, maybe he thinks it will help the players develop, maybe he has even decided in the twilight of his career that this formation is particularly strong and is not just a way of masking the limitations of a weak squad, as it seemed to be with Holland and with us when he first joined. But I just cant see it.
I have no idea if Van Gaal is the kind of person who cares what other people think, whether he would keep doing something because he wouldnt want to be seen as backtracking. But whether he does it for his own reasons or for perception doesnt matter, he has an out either way. If its all about what he thinks, he now has more options. If its all about what others think, the arrival of the new players changes the facts sufficiently that he can deny he has done a U Turn. Whichever it is, he now has the options and the excuse to drop it and move to 433 or 4231.
Maybe he sees learning the 3 at the back system as a useful case study in tactical flexibility, maybe he thinks it will help the players develop, maybe he has even decided in the twilight of his career that this formation is particularly strong and is not just a way of masking the limitations of a weak squad, as it seemed to be with Holland and with us when he first joined. But I just cant see it.
I have no idea if Van Gaal is the kind of person who cares what other people think, whether he would keep doing something because he wouldnt want to be seen as backtracking. But whether he does it for his own reasons or for perception doesnt matter, he has an out either way. If its all about what he thinks, he now has more options. If its all about what others think, the arrival of the new players changes the facts sufficiently that he can deny he has done a U Turn. Whichever it is, he now has the options and the excuse to drop it and move to 433 or 4231.
Jonathan Wilson has a crack at working out why he seems intent on persisting with the formation in this article.
No really useful conclusions, other than "the combination of a recent convert to a different shape and his inheritance of a squad that was incomprehensibly unbalanced."
Yeah I saw that article.
I dont see anything in our transfers that indicate we will stick with 3 at the back. That article mentions Rojo but I can easily see him playing CB, or Shaw being dropped considering his fitness has already been called into question.
Maybe he'll stick with it a bit longer to see if the new players can make it work but I dont think Van Gaal will allow this season to be written off, dogmatically sticking to this formation. It was only ever supposed to be the solution to a problem, not some kind of ideological nirvana he has always worked towards.
I dont see anything in our transfers that indicate we will stick with 3 at the back. That article mentions Rojo but I can easily see him playing CB, or Shaw being dropped considering his fitness has already been called into question.
Maybe he'll stick with it a bit longer to see if the new players can make it work but I dont think Van Gaal will allow this season to be written off, dogmatically sticking to this formation. It was only ever supposed to be the solution to a problem, not some kind of ideological nirvana he has always worked towards.
With Shaw fit on the left (and Blind available as cover), isn't it likely that Young would be preferred to Valencia for a role on the right. He, at least, can cross the ball. [Edit: Come to think of it, his crossing ability might also give him an edge over Rafael who is pretty poor in that department.]
Id be very surprised.
My opinion is that Van Gaal is trying to pioneer something. He has a blue print for a great tactic and he believes it will be successful once everyone gets it.
Young for RWB, really?
I was reading something where he was trying to take credit as a pioneer of the 4231 system. Tho maybe it was more about Bayern's application of the system than the system itself he was claiming credit for.
Its a reasonable theory @Pexbo, that he wants the kudos of having invented the next trendy system, but I dont think that's it, personally. I think he'd get more pleasure from adding a couple more names to his "young players bought through" collection, some more silverware (more success at the biggest club in yet another country) and seeing Man United infused with his "philosophy" (I constantly feel the need to put that word in quotation marks when it comes to LVG) - and continuing with it after he has gone. He talks about it time and again with Bayern and Barca, Im sure if in ten years United are winning things and people are tracing it back to him he will see that as a great achievement. That is his goal, I think.
I hope that is it. Because if you are right there's a much higher risk of him sticking to 352 as a dogma, long after it has ceased to be rational.
Its a reasonable theory @Pexbo, that he wants the kudos of having invented the next trendy system, but I dont think that's it, personally. I think he'd get more pleasure from adding a couple more names to his "young players bought through" collection, some more silverware (more success at the biggest club in yet another country) and seeing Man United infused with his "philosophy" (I constantly feel the need to put that word in quotation marks when it comes to LVG) - and continuing with it after he has gone. He talks about it time and again with Bayern and Barca, Im sure if in ten years United are winning things and people are tracing it back to him he will see that as a great achievement. That is his goal, I think.
I hope that is it. Because if you are right there's a much higher risk of him sticking to 352 as a dogma, long after it has ceased to be rational.
If we end up sticking with this formation I think this will turn out as our main line-up.
I personally think the introduction of Di Maria means a 4-4-2 may well suit the players we have more. Di Maria in my opinion is better in wide positions (See Germany game) and a player of that quality should be played where he's best. Potentially a 4-3-3 with him coming in from wide (and from what I've seen recently Im not sure he favours a wing - I always used to think left)
For me it should look like
-----------------------De Gea
--Rafael---Jones/Smalling---Evans/Rojo---Shaw
--Di Maria--Herrera---Blind---Januzaj/Young
-------Rooney/RVP---Falcao/Mata---
Or 4-3-3
-----------------------De Gea
--Rafael---Jones/Smalling---Evans/Rojo---Shaw
---------------Herrera-----Blind-------
------------------Mata/Rooney
------Mata/Rooney-----Di Maria/Januzaj/RVP
-----------------Falcao/RVP/Rooney
Will LVG change I'm not sure. But with the form Di Maria is in and has shown I think the team should be built around our most in form player.
For me it should look like
-----------------------De Gea
--Rafael---Jones/Smalling---Evans/Rojo---Shaw
--Di Maria--Herrera---Blind---Januzaj/Young
-------Rooney/RVP---Falcao/Mata---
Or 4-3-3
-----------------------De Gea
--Rafael---Jones/Smalling---Evans/Rojo---Shaw
---------------Herrera-----Blind-------
------------------Mata/Rooney
------Mata/Rooney-----Di Maria/Januzaj/RVP
-----------------Falcao/RVP/Rooney
Will LVG change I'm not sure. But with the form Di Maria is in and has shown I think the team should be built around our most in form player.
Has it been killed with fire yet?
Hiddink found out yesterday, it was crap and changed it after 40 minutes.
If Van Gaal doesn't do the same against QPR I would start to question his sanity.
With the injuries to Jones and Smalling LvG even has an excuse to switch to 4-3-3 without losing face.
I'd be very, very surprised if LvG changes anything. We're stuck with this 352 bollocks for a while yet lads.
Rafael is never fit. If he can go 3 games without being out for 4 months he would certainly be our best bet for the right side of any formation. But sadly he can't.
If Shaw's on the left I'd have Young over Valencia every time.
Why is the 3-5-2 bollocks though?
It's far too early to judge the system, especially without our regulars in the team. LvG wouldn't chose that system without thinking it would suit our players. We have seen glimpses in pre season that it can have a lot of advantages, yet after losing against Swansea and drawing against Sunderland and Burnley with so many players injured, it is bollocks. Our season really starts against QPR on Sunday and with players like Herrera, Shaw and Rafael returning, we will look a completely different side. If we win comfortably on Sunday with the 3-5-2, everyone will be raving about the system and that it's the best thing since sliced bread.
A lot of people are talking about how we need to rebuild and make some significant changes over the summer, but these kind of things take time. We bought some class players, released others who had a lot of chances to prove themselves and suddenly we lose our 'identity'. We implement a new system to get rid of the pretty flat 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 formation and after a few games it's bollocks. We sign Falcao and Di Maria and suddenly RVP is in his decline and Mata a pure luxury player. We just need to be patient and let a proven world class manager like LvG work with the team.
It's far too early to judge the system, especially without our regulars in the team. LvG wouldn't chose that system without thinking it would suit our players. We have seen glimpses in pre season that it can have a lot of advantages, yet after losing against Swansea and drawing against Sunderland and Burnley with so many players injured, it is bollocks. Our season really starts against QPR on Sunday and with players like Herrera, Shaw and Rafael returning, we will look a completely different side. If we win comfortably on Sunday with the 3-5-2, everyone will be raving about the system and that it's the best thing since sliced bread.
A lot of people are talking about how we need to rebuild and make some significant changes over the summer, but these kind of things take time. We bought some class players, released others who had a lot of chances to prove themselves and suddenly we lose our 'identity'. We implement a new system to get rid of the pretty flat 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 formation and after a few games it's bollocks. We sign Falcao and Di Maria and suddenly RVP is in his decline and Mata a pure luxury player. We just need to be patient and let a proven world class manager like LvG work with the team.
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Please be 4-3-3.
Please!
Please!
You don't need 3-5-2 to shoehorn Mata, Di Maria, Falcao, Rooney and RVP (one of the latter two will have to be sacrificed)
--------------DDG----------
-Rafael--Jones--Rojo--Shaw
------------Blind-------------
---Herrera------Di Maria---
------------Mata-------------
----Rooney------Falcao-----
There! See, simples!
--------------DDG----------
-Rafael--Jones--Rojo--Shaw
------------Blind-------------
---Herrera------Di Maria---
------------Mata-------------
----Rooney------Falcao-----
There! See, simples!
The Van Gaalacticos. That is brilliant, that has to stick.
Not bad, but still think there's a lack of width and a lack of pace out wide.
It's similar to what Liverpool play, but they have so much pace and movement. We don't have electric pace with these three, and I don't see any of them moving out wide in the same way.
Get the system in place, then drop whoever needs dropping. No point shoehorning players into a lesser system.
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I would go with that diamond myself. Di Maria has to work hard to provide width on the left and Rafael has to get up and down on the right.
Or 4321
Same at the back, then Blind and Herrera in front of them, Di Maria, Mata and Januzaj ahead of them and Falcao or Rooney up front.
Same at the back, then Blind and Herrera in front of them, Di Maria, Mata and Januzaj ahead of them and Falcao or Rooney up front.
This is better, I think. It simply has to be one up top, in my opinion. Get some proper width into the side while keeping us solid in the centre. Plus Rooney/Falcao are solo strikers at best. Essentially it's very similar to 4-3-3 too, with the major difference coming off the ball.
I'd aim to put Di Maria in Mata's place and look for a pace merchant for the opposite wing to Januzaj though.
For some reason, I have complete trust in LVG on this. I don't expect us to play fantastic football all of a sudden, we just need some time on the training ground and on the pitch for it work. The players look like they share the same belief too, so that's good enough for me. It is a complete contrast from last season when it felt like we had no direction and motivation. Right now, I'm willing take whatever bullshit from our detractors and haters, especially from the Scouse cnuts with their retarded football memes and twittertalk. Once our football get rolling, it will be fecking beautiful seeing them shut their mouths.
I think it's the diamond
Blind
Herrera Di Maria
Rooney
v.Persie Falcao
Blind
Herrera Di Maria
Rooney
v.Persie Falcao
De Gea
Rafael - Blackett/Evans - Rojo - Shaw
Blind - Herrera
Di Maria
Januzaj - Falcao - Rooney (not as a winger but as left forward)
Rafael - Blackett/Evans - Rojo - Shaw
Blind - Herrera
Di Maria
Januzaj - Falcao - Rooney (not as a winger but as left forward)