only if you look at it from 1 angle, slowed down and freeze framed at a certain point which is where it ends and loops. if you look it in regular time from multiple angles never a red
So... Was it a red? (Casemiro / Hughes Royal Rumble)
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A lot of RAWK like posts in here. It's an inarguable red unless you're showing extreme bias.
Again, he put his hands up. That’s the relevant bit. The law states that’s a red
All the other stuff is irrelevant
VIOLENT CONDUCT: Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made. In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.
He never strikes his head or face, he grabs his kit, then puts his hand on his shoulder and then takes it off, all in less than a few seconds
Easy red. Whether it was collar or neck, you're never getting away with that.
Where his hands are is a matter of viewing angle and opinion. And there is actually no rule that says "your fingers cannot be X inches away from a throat"
If we ant to talk the rules, the rule says: "A player is guilty of violent conduct if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball. He is also guilty of violent conduct if he uses excessive force or brutality against a team-mate, spectator, match official or any other person."
I didn't see any excessive force or brutality.
Would it not fall under "excessive force" when not challenging for the ball?
Very, very soft. Naive from Casemiro but that was not for a red card.
Put his hands up. End of story. Easy one for me. What I’m pissed about is that more players didn’t get punished
If rules were to be followed it should have been several reds, and even more yellows in that brawl, that’s my point.
As I said, probably a red if it was a separate incident, but a good ref should see that this is a heated situation where many players are in the wrong, and just let it slide.
Also, if it was so obviously a red as you say, wouldn’t VAR just give it instead of having the ref go watching the replays?
I would argue that he did use excessive force
it will be interesting to hear MOTD thoughts tonight
@Dion It’s the use of the word “strikes” that differentiates what Casemiro did from a legitimate red card. He didn’t swing an arm, elbow or fist he didn’t even shove Hughes in the head or face. When you watch the full footage, in real time, you don’t see anything that merits being sent off for violent conduct.
Having said that, I don’t think it’s worth appealing. As they will only circle the wagons. That’s what they do.
Side note. There’s a fair bit of brutality in deliberately shoving an opposition player down a slope onto concrete. Yet that was only a yellow card.
Okay, I think we’re kind of agreeing after all
Oh yeah I agree the ref lost control and should have carded several
but as for the question that was posed “was it a red?”. In my opinion it is, he gave the ref no choice
I hope that when you guys discuss the incident in your cast, you restrain from talking about such minute details (although it's what the mob likes to hear) and instead focus on the bigger picture: the why and the what for of brawls, the example these give and how a much better system of outside help - see NFL f.e. - could handle these transparently, so as to completely rule out hotheaded players attempts at serving justice, which is the refs job. Of course, the ref was poor before, but that's an explanation for hotheadedness, not an excuse.
Exactly!
Cards festivals until they get it, and get it they will quickly.
Justin is wrong, the neck counts as part of the head/face.
You don't need to swing for it to be considered a "strike". Xhaka got done for a similar one where he reaches up and grabs the throat. The technical guidance on what constitutes a strike is attempting to touch another player when not challenging for the ball. It's why intentionally touching heads with an opponent even if you don't "butt" them is technically a red card.
There was absolutely zero violent intent or excessive intent in what he did. He held the guy for a couple of seconds and then said “calm down” to him and they both had an amicable exchange straight after it and moved on.
What the VAR panel did was ridiculous. They basically did a directors cut, showing the worst angle, in slow motion with none of the context.
But should the ref then really give out three reds and six yellows (not exact numbers) in these situations, or should he, given the circumstances, reprimand the players and maybe give the two captains a yellow?
If we go back to the old united-arsenal games there wouldn’t be many players left at the field if you should follow the rule book as strict as you say.
Is that second paragraph correct? Cos someone else posted the wording on violent conduct earlier in the thread and it was:
In addition, a player who, when not challenging for the ball, deliberately strikes an opponent or any other person on the head or face with the hand or arm, is guilty of violent conduct unless the force used was negligible.
Whereas you have it written as 'intentional contact'. I'm not sure you could argue that Casemiro struck him could you? Especially with force that was more than negligible?
I wouldn't call it 'violent conduct', but he put his hands around someone's neck. If you do that, you're asking for trouble. If that happened to one of our players, most people here would ask for a red card to be given. Casemiro is an idiot for doing what he did. I expect more from him and our other experienced players. He's a big miss for the next 3 games.
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Sorry, it’s completely nonsense. The laws of the game has no single word like you said.
Correct. Which is why I also mentioned that he didn’t shove him either. I refuse to believe that technical guidance exists which states that merely touching another player is always considered as striking them.
I don’t remember the Xhaka one but maybe that ticked the “excessive force or brutality” box? I mean, if Casemiro had Homer Simpson’d him by the neck then I wouldn’t be arguing against the red card at all.
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Yellows would have sufficed - both for Casemiro and Ayew.
I hate that anytime a player touches someone's face then red cards get shown - like when someone goes head to head and a player gets sent off. I've always been frustrated at it.
I hate that anytime a player touches someone's face then red cards get shown - like when someone goes head to head and a player gets sent off. I've always been frustrated at it.
Having got home from the match, and seen the footage in real time I cannot comprehend how that was deemed a red card. But I've also seen footage of the slowed down still that the ref was shown and it's looks like his is choking Hughes. VAR is a disgrace, you can show something in a freeze frame which is out of context. Casemiro is holding up one hand telling Hughes to calm down, then they end up hugging.
On the bright side, Casemiro gets some much needed rest before Barcelona away. And the EFL final, so at least we can be thankful for that.
On the bright side, Casemiro gets some much needed rest before Barcelona away. And the EFL final, so at least we can be thankful for that.
Some great quotes from ten Hag here, I really like this man
Sadly, but its a red.
Can't grab a neck in almost any context really. Vibes are simply too murder-y. Probably costs us points against Leeds once, though Sabitzer looked fit enough to be solid there and Fred is in good form.
Ayew should probably get a game or 2 from what it looks like.
Ayew should probably get a game or 2 from what it looks like.
There were many people a lot more violent than him in that melee.
He had both hands on the Palace player, sure, but I don't get why that is considered more of an offence than the number of players there full on shoving other players with all their strength. I also don't get why his was the only action reviewed among many.
He had both hands on the Palace player, sure, but I don't get why that is considered more of an offence than the number of players there full on shoving other players with all their strength. I also don't get why his was the only action reviewed among many.
The one should be punished is the referee. When Anthony was bumped violently by Schulop, he didn’t intervene. It’s the reason the followings occurred.
100% agree with this
Stop talking nonsense. He didn’t grab Hughes’s neck!
41% think it a red card. This place is laughable!
In isolation yes. In the middle of a brawl no.
Absolute bullshit. Nobody here was whining about the Crystal Palace players throwing punches prior to Casemiro's sending off.
There’s zero chance the red card will be overturned. But it’s not hard to see the punishment being reduced to a one match ban. If, that is, an appeal if filed, which I would encourage. There was clearly no violent intent, but it’s also clear that a player cannot grab the throat of another player.
I have quoted that rule multiple times in the thread already myself
. The confusion you have is you're working on a definition of strike which doesn't match what the referees use. It's intentional contact with another player when not challenging for the ball. That's it, that's all strike means in that context.It is, which is why there are caveats for excessive force or brutality when it's not at the head/face.
Striking someone isn't an offence in and of itself, it's when it's excessive, brutal or on the head/face.
Jordan Ayew has Fred round the neck. No card??
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Eriksen out for the rest of the season. No card given for this?
Martinez elbowed in the eye. No card given for this?
Eriksen out for the rest of the season. No card given for this?
Martinez elbowed in the eye. No card given for this?
It's a red, he was stupid for putting his hands around another player's throat. Anyone arguing against it either doesn't understand the rules or is letting their bias get the best of them.
Wise up, chill out, he'll be rested for the more important fixtures coming up.
Wise up, chill out, he'll be rested for the more important fixtures coming up.