That link takes me to his stats V Palace, remember the game where Palace didn't turn up in the EFL cup?
Sofyan Amrabat | 2023/24 Performances
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
- Start date
Interesting and makes absolute sense in theory. But I guess it would be quite a bold move to drop both Bruno and Casemiro from midfield, would you keep them in the club? What about Amrabat? Keep as option or stop the transfer?
And your backline would then be Todibo - Varane - Martinez - Shaw with Diomande being 1st reserve?
(I realize this sounds as if its fingerpointing but it is a genuine question. I like your thinking but my feeling is, that this plan would be considered as pretty bold by many. Again, I totally think we are at a point where bold might be necessary, but I think many supporters wouldn't make such deep changes)
Would confirm the observation, the thing is: we don't really know what ETHs overall plan is. Looking at City over the years shows how you can maintain the correct numbers in midfield even if you play to nominal attacking mids. Overall workrate has to be high (which is potentially possible with Bruno and Mount), FB could tuck in (a role, Shaws skillset sounds very good for) or like last year, a CB could push up (with Martinez certainly possible). I am with you, currently it looks like nothing is working at all but I wonder how much of that is really down to the system ETH has in mind. Yesterday Dalot went into midfield on occasion, so thats that - there is a plan, it just isn't working at the minute which can be down to a) the plan being shit, b) ETH not being great at communicating the plan, c) the players too thick to understand the plan and d) the players ETH had in mind when coming up with the plan being injured. My favorites are c) and d) but I guess that could be wishful thinking. Still can't believe, that ETH would really insist on a plan that is so dysfunctional as it is right now.
But at the end of the day, it was fecking Sheffield United and they did play at least just as good as us in the 1st half. In 2nd we upped the urgency and they dropped back. It gets easier to control a midfield if it is barely contested.
I am seriously worried about that as well. He can have a good game if we keep it tight and stick close to each other. If we play like yesterday, I am really worried...
But we have seen the same game didn't we? It was a pretty bad game, individual numbers from a bad game without context. Of course it is Statman Dave once again.... Would be interesting to see Norwoods numbers next to it. Or the ones from Eriksen and McTominay. I mean, the guy needs content and calling something great or awful will provide more engagement than calling something "moderately positive" but I feel, some of those numbers get a little too much weight in discussions. Not an accusation of course, it is an endless effort to dig through all the polarisation of opinions. And finding common ground isn't something that seems to be very appealing with many.
You can only play what's in front of you, and the others haven't managed to control games against equally bad midfields. Nobody thinks we have signed a prime Sergio Busquets but Amrabat is a step in the right direction. So was Casemiro and that did work until his legs gave up on him.
All we need to do is get the balance right in midfield and let the others in the team start playing properly. The star midfield signings can come later.
Thought he played well. We played high up when looking for the second goal and he was very good at cutting any threat through the middle. Sheffield United resorting to long balls over the top and panicked clearances was a testament to that
We will definitely sign him you don’t pay £9m loan for a season without an obligation for a further £20m he’s a more than able squad member, and let’s be honest this guy gives a F…, he’s not the best in the world but at 27 we’ll get 4 good years out of him and he can get round the pitch if he can smack 3 or 4 in the net, as he’s got a thunderous shot on him, then fir me good business all round maybe when Casemiro finds his form the two of them will sit in a double pivot and allow Eriksen/Mount/Bruno to occupy two spaces in a Simons midfield as we clearly don’t have any decent wingers right now !
The world of football is a crazy place. Came here injured, no pre season, had to introduce himself to a very different and difficult league, at LB....started only second or third game at Cm and fans are criticising him.
I bloody give up...
I bloody give up...
I can see his skillset, but for me it has a place in the lower end of the top half of the table which is obviously exactly where we are and how we are playing right now.
Amongst so many of our midfielders, the one thing none of them have is that ability to just send it to the forwards in one or two touches.
As a squad player going forwards I'd certainly have him but if this is our solution to an ongoing midfield problem since Carrick lost his legs, then we're fecked.
You can see why EtH had such a hard on for De Jong, it's just a shame that every other signing has been so vastly different in what they offer, including Amrabat.
Amongst so many of our midfielders, the one thing none of them have is that ability to just send it to the forwards in one or two touches.
As a squad player going forwards I'd certainly have him but if this is our solution to an ongoing midfield problem since Carrick lost his legs, then we're fecked.
You can see why EtH had such a hard on for De Jong, it's just a shame that every other signing has been so vastly different in what they offer, including Amrabat.
I hope, we do put a little bit more due dilligence into it. 20 odd million might sound like a good deal but it is 20 million that you can't use for any other player. I know Uniteds recruiting is as basic as it gets and shouldn't be expected too much from which at the end of the day make you agree with you but all in all it isn't a great way of building a squad. Money should be used to bring in people who show the potential to be future starters and stars. And that doesn't necessarily limits the scope to well known talent. Players that can do a job shouldn't be bought - this group should consist from loanees, youngster from the academy, former starters.
If Amrabat really shows potential until the end of the year, then we can talk but if not, buying just because the rest even worse makes no sense. Our midfield recruitment has been pretty shortsighted for a while, Casemiro, Eriksen, Bruno - they all will (or are already) declining physically. Mount is the only one that looks like a potential mainstay for us (at least age wise). So there is already a gap. And even if one of Hannibal or Mainoo will have an impact, we are still short of at least one player close to approaching his prime.
Its part of the game. Especially at a big club, especially if the mood is already tense. Some of the criticism might be a bit OTT. Some of the praise might be OTT. Pretty sure 95% of people would agree that it doesn't make sense to evaluate at least until end of the month, but what are you going to write in such a thread then? Criticism is fine as long as it doesn't turn into abuse.
Amrabat is averaging 11 progressive passes per 90 already, which is the most of our players who have played in deeper midfield. By comparison McTominay averages less than 2. His pass completion is also the best of the 5 midfielders and he attempts the most passes per game. He averages the most touches too, not afraid of the ball, again considerably more than McTominay with the others somewhere in between the two.
He's not it. Squad player at best but don't think he belongs at a club really pushing to win honors.
I think all that was clear yesterday, particularly in the second half and we're not used to seeing it from one of our midfieders. I'm not entirely sure where the resistance to the idea that he did well yesterday and could provide a bit of a platform going forward comes from. The eagerness to write off his stats yesterday because it was Sheffield United or because they were shite or because he was bald or whatever is a bit weird. We've been pretty rubbish against everyone lately and the centre of our midfield has been incredibly porous so any change, in any context has to be a good thing, right?
Yep, he's hardly the best midfielder in the world but if you have an area of the team that is so deficient and you have a player that's performing at a good level, it's an immediate improvement. Part of the problem with our midfield is that it's full of flashy players and lacks substance, whereas Amrabat is the sort of midfielder that adds that substance and lets others shine.
Seems like by reading this thread that if a player doesn't do well within 5 games from joining then we may as well chuck them in the bin.
Amrabat had no pre-season, came to a new country injured, had to play left back and is now only getting to play in his proper position. Thought he played really well last night, broke up the play, kept the ball unlike some and was unlucky not to score.
Amrabat had no pre-season, came to a new country injured, had to play left back and is now only getting to play in his proper position. Thought he played really well last night, broke up the play, kept the ball unlike some and was unlucky not to score.
McTominay made 6 passes didn't he? Don't know about Norwood.
We know McTominay's stats in general as well so there's a bit of context there.
I think he was good yesterday. Needs someone next to him though. Think he will do better with eriksen there.
Thought he held his shape well and is a capable passer and heady player when he split the two CBs and helped move up the pitch.
Thought it was a good tactical move to position the FBs, especially Lindelof, in central midfield when on the ball, which caused Sheffield to give up space outside, play in thr channels, or switch.
He also was the second man coming into close down and win the ball back when a players was being stood up.
Thought it was a good tactical move to position the FBs, especially Lindelof, in central midfield when on the ball, which caused Sheffield to give up space outside, play in thr channels, or switch.
He also was the second man coming into close down and win the ball back when a players was being stood up.
I think that's true of all midfielders though. They need another one next to them. Best way to make a CM look shit is to isolate them.
Even City last season, it wasn't until Stones moved closer to Rodri that they really started to play well.
You could see in the second half he started coming much deeper to pick the ball up, was struggling to get on it in the first 30 with their energy and made a few mistakes while being rushed, looked a bit pedestrian in that phase of the game.. However in the last 10 mins of the first he started to get into it, their pressing dropped off and he carried that on in the second half. What I liked was his willingness to play more aggressive passes, there were 3/4 he played between the CB and FB that set up dangerous attacking situations, he also has a good engine and keeps doing the basics to a good standard.
I think against better teams he might struggle with the lack of space, but we will see.
I think against better teams he might struggle with the lack of space, but we will see.
A progressive pass is :
"
A pass is considered progressive if the distance between the starting point and the next touch is:
- at least 30 meters closer to the opponent’s goal if the starting and finishing points are within a team’s own half
- at least 15 meters closer to the opponent’s goal if the starting and finishing points are in different halves
- at least 10 meters closer to the opponent’s goal if the starting and finishing points are in the opponent’s half
or by FBREF's definition
" Completed passes that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 10 yards from its furthest point in the last 6 passes or any completed pass into the penalty area. Excludes passes from the defending 40% of the pitch"
Partey, Amrabat, Maddison, Jorginho and then Rodri make up the highest averages for progressive passes from midfielders playing more than 90 mins of football so far this season in the premier league and in that order.
I dont think Rodri is the 5th best of those 5 and Bissouma is 9th despite being the other outstanding central midfielder so far this season. Ward-Prowse is in there for one of the best too and I didnt see his name in the top 40 but he's clearly playing a lot better than Amrabat. Bernardo Silva would be 26th and Odegaard 38th from my quick scan of midfielders...
So how useful is progressive passes as a stat? Any pass into the penalty box is good for sure, thats why theres a count of it on its own. Maddison, Elliot, Bruno, Cole Palmer and Partey would be the top 5 midfielders for that alone. Amrabat isnt on any top lists for that part so you can forget about that.
So hes 2nd on the list of those 5 initial names by moving the ball at least 10m futher forward than its deepest point in the last 6 passes. I dont think Im crazy for not being impressed by that as a stat. Matic would do that being deep in midfield and picking up the ball off the defenders the same way too. Isnt playing passes at least 10m forward from the deepest position in the last 6 passes something you would automatically do as a deep midfielder? The deepest position would be Onana or our defenders and then within 3 or 4 passes you'd expect a midfielder to be getting a touch. If its taken 6 youve probably overplayed. But okay during the 6 passes you, as a deep midfielder have successfully taken in a pass. Now any pass you make is surely going to be 10m further than that deepest point in the chain. What am I missing here? Regardless even if it was as simple as how many times you pass the ball forward at least 10m you can still do a lot of that playing an easy ball out wide to someone 10m ahead of you. Which is generally the best thing Amrabat does, a nice switch from one side to the other and usually that will go forward enough to count too.
It would be much more useful to have a count of the amount of passes midfielders play, probably more than 10m, but through the middle between opposing players to an advanced teammate. Thats some real progress from your central midfielder with risk enough that when you get it right it should be lauded. Its not a key pass but those arent always on from the half way line and is one of the next best things and can free up your teammate to make a key pass. I dont know where such a stat is listed, but thats one where if Amrabat is in the top 5 for midfielders it would actually be impressive.
Of course stats can tell any story you want. Amrabat's stats looked good yesterday, apparently they're not the right stats. He was constantly available in the second half particularly, took, gave it, took it again, gave us a bit of calmness, a bit of control, mixed it up with a number of accurate long balls, broke up play a number of times, hit the bar. I'm not too bothered about the stats. He gave us something yesterday that we've lacked and it's a start.
Sounds like line breaking passes. Casemiro ranked highly for those last season.
He had a good shot and was pretty good in the 2nd half. Our midfielders in the first half other than McTom scoring were bad.
Always amazes me the way (some) people go to such tortuous lengths to try and discredit any stats that make a player they’ve decided not to rate look good. Absolutely no chance of giving credit where it’s due. Not when that might mean that maybe, just maybe they’re not as good a judge of a player as the club or manager.
This wall of text is an absolute classic of the genre.
You'd think that's something you'd do... yet McTominay has played in deep midfield for years and even in his best season never even got close to half as many as Amrabat? Matic never had as many as that either. It's a small sample size this season and against weaker opposition you'd expect it to fall down. But still it's a sign that we have a player who is trying to do the right things.
I dunno why a player with similar stats to as you mentioned Partey, Rodri, Maddison and Jorginho would be considered a bad thing.
Its not.
But he has more of these "progressive passes" than them which is odd dont you think? When you take out the automatically counted "passes into the penalty area" which is obviously a good thing without much room for debate then he suddenly he isnt among them. Thats something they are doing and he isnt. And obviously if we look at Maddison he's an AM so lets not pretend Amrabat has to have as many as that type of player. But the rest of them? Well yeah if we're going to talk him up for being in the top 5 of a stat, being among the top of those same players in the more important and less debatable part is more important than making sure your pass ends up more than 10m from the deepest teammate in the last 6 passes.
But yes I agree with you on McTom, Amrabat is clearly better at that whilst McTom has clearly not been focusing on his "progressive passes" stat over the past couple of seasons. It wouldnt be what I'd have wanted him to either. It would be other aspects that I'm inclined to believe that Amrabat provides more of. Like switching the play from one flank to the other. If McTom was doing that more often I think he'd have been doing better the past few seasons.
There is a stat called packing out there, it is not too known nor applied. But it would be exactly what you mean.
Definition
They did look good. But they look especially good without comparison - without that you don't really know what the information is giving you other than some numbers with limited meaning. And also, stats are part of the picture but not the full picture. Another part is eye test and thats when a) we can say that the overall game was pretty much a drag and b) while Amrabat did cruise without too many mistakes, he didn't really pop up positively. At least as long as you do not compare him to McTominay.
This is of course subjective to a degree and yes, that might be a bit unfair or harsh or anything. But to me personally I am worried that he will be bought just on the basis of being a bit better than McTominay, heart-ill Eriksen or out-of-form Casemiro. There was a chunk of fans ready to pull the trigger on Sabitzer last year and I am glad we didn't. If Amrabat shows something, then I am happy to buy him but if his level is what we have seen so far (and yes, many factors speak against it but a few do speak in favor...) than I would consider it a mistake. 20 million more in last transfer window would have potentially brought us Todibo...
It isn't considered a bad thing per se. The other user and I just think that those (undoubtedly) good stats are generated by very basic play. Too basic to potentially justify a 20 million purchase of a 27 year old with next to no pedigree. Until today, I'd say that 95 from 100 passes from Amrabat where to the player that was the most obvious pass destination. Don't get me wrong, that has its values and being so reliable gained Carrick and Scholes part of their elite reputation. But they offered a little more apart from that. And I really hope to see that from Amrabat. Because if there isn't anything special, then there is no real point.
It is harsh, I can see that. But such transfers have been what made sure we had so much deadwood over that period. If you know a squad part is dire, you can't just buy someone just because he is a bit better than the player you already know aren't giving you what you need.
Last edited:
No issue paying 20 million to make Amarbat a squad player. We've just paid 60 Million to make Mount a squad player this deal seems value for money.
Last edited:
It's something that sounds quite simple but matters in breaking the lines consistently, last season the two teams with the most of those 10 metre passes were... Man City and Arsenal, the top two teams in the league. The next two are Brighton and Liverpool, again teams that use the ball far better than us that we would like to emulate more in possession.
Amrabat has certain qualities that we lack, it's all about squad building and what you're saying really isn't that much money, his wages are also about a fifth of Casemiro's for example, yet he potentially offers plenty of quality in depth. Imagine we didn't get Amrabat on deadline day, which looked likely at one point, what would the midfield have looked like last night? Recently turned 27 years old is a good age too, don't see that as an issue. Rodri is older than Amrabat and I expect him to be City's defensive midfielder for another 5 years.
Well he is driving people up the wall.
It is a underrated stat, but the team you play in means a lot. Rice make twice the amount per 90 min this year. Rodri now makes more than 1 per 90 min. At AM he was at 0,26 per på min. Amrabat has not played in a very good Man Utd-side so far.
I really dont have high hopes for Amrabat, but he look like a player with very different qualities than Fred and McTominay. And I think that could make him useful.
Yeah as I said, moving the ball reliably has its value, no question about that but when there is no penetration (and in my eyes, there absolutely isn't enough from Amrabat just yet), then the comparison with City and Arsenal breaks down. It isn't just Amrabat, no question about it, we don't have enough movement and so on. But while I would agree that we shouldn't negatively attribute it to Amrabat, we shouldn't just assume Amrabat would do this and that as soon as the conditions are better.
20 millions isn't much but as I said, it might be the difference of getting Todibo or not. Bringing in Casemiro was a bit shortsighted as well. Same with Eriksen. Every transfer made sense to a degree when you only look at the next season ahead. But squad building should be looking further into the future. If we wouldn't have got Amrabat - you act as if we would be lost. I mean, look at where we are. Not like we have been doing great, haven't we? We would have to field Mejbri or VDB more. Results might be even worse but who knows. But those are mistakes that have already been done, we can't do anything about it anymore. But for the future, we can at least try to prevent more money being burned. IF Amrabat becomes as good as Rodri, we will not have any debates here. But not all people are that optimistic about him.
Tifo IR-L had a video, laying out our age structure in midfield (not just midfield actually). We are already heading into tricky waters because Bruno, Casemiro and Eriksen have good chances of not being starter quality sooner than later. We brought in Mount who is in the right age bracket, maybe one of Mainoo and Mejbri can be part of the plans. But next to them we already need an A-tier solution. (I'd argue even two..., there is just no way the funds for that should be reduced to bring in Amrabat IF he is only part of the bench squad anyways)
He can play a sitting DM and is a decent passer, that’s a profile we haven’t had in the squad for a long time. He won’t be best in the league but he’s a good player. All about maximising the sum of our parts and I think stylistically he’s the best we have for that role.
Casemiro is the A-tier player in terms of salary and transfer fee, it's a bit like on the wings with Antony and Sancho - United have to live with their decisions to buy those players. Unlike the other two, Casemiro has proven it over many years and was actually very good last season. This season he's not been but it's two months and plenty of time to turn it around. We'll see.
I am happy with Amrabat as a support to the main man as such. I don't think he's getting in the way of anything because he's a useful player to have and doesn't cost that much. Compared to say still we have Donny van de Beek there who never plays. He is the right age profile but it means nothing because he's not good enough. Have to get the right players, regardless of age.
That's because we're Agenda FC here at RedCafe where at least 20% of the posters want the manager sacked at any given time and the manager under whom a player was brought in determines whether the poster thinks they're good or shite.
If the goal is to develop the team within the positional play principles where playing through the thirds is a requirement, then it's important to have the correct profile of players who will aid the development of a play-style which requires the first phase players to evade and resist pressure in possession, as well as being adept at defending opposition transitions in a larger space. Casemiro fails in this regard and his signing only made sense due to the team that was left behind by the previous managers. EtH inherited a GK who wasn't good enough on the ball. He inherited Fred and McTominay who were never good enough in possession to play the system he wants in possesion. He also inherited a striker in Ronaldo who didn't believe in the out of possession concepts which are required to press high in coordination with your team mates. It's going to take a bit of time to change things because the problems were that big.
I don't think Bruno is going to be dropped anytime soon but I think they've already made the move to eventually phase him out by signing Mason Mount. And the central attacking role is crucial in the sense that it requires positional discipline and a technical security in possession along with the ability to press effectively without getting bypassed easily. And I think Mason Mount is better than Bruno at all those things and he fits the team dynamic better within the aforementioned principles which ten Hag implemented at Ajax. And those principles were put to the test in the Champions league hence he got the United job.
And what Gullit is saying below is something I completely agree with. There's players in the team who seem to be too concerned with upping their own numbers and it doesn't really benefit the team as a collective.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
As far as Amrabat is concerned, I think it will depend on how he performs for the rest of the season. Because it doesn't seem like Mayorga and Wells (Heads of recruitment) were sold on him and the plan seemingly was to sign a midfielder with physical and athletic capabilities hence it was reported that we approached Everton for Amadou Onana and even attempted to sign Yousouff Fofana from Monaco late in the window before settling on signing Amrabat. If the money was made available then Amadou Onana and Todibo would've been signed imo.
My backline would ideally be Todibo, Diomande, Martinez and Shaw. With Varane possibly being first reserve.
Obviously Mount was bought to be a starter and star player. He just hasnt and may not deliver that with his slow start.
Amrabat will end up 30 to keep him plus his paid loan fee. I dont think 30 is over the top for a rotated/squad player either, but only when you have your starting midfield places in great standing. Because you can find those squad players for a lot cheaper or use the young players. We have Mainoo and Mejbri for that. And more importantly they'll hopefully become better players than Amrabat, but its less likely if they have less chances to be on the pitch.
If City or Arsenal want to spend 30 million on a midfielder to sit on the bench and come on after 70 mins thats fine for them because their midfields are twice as strong as ours. We need our money to improve the first team in that area, or use the minutes for the young players to progress to hopefully the level of the kinds of players we would have bought with that money.
His stats from the game are really good. Pity he was partnered with such a complete non-entity in central midfield. Finding the best partner for him is going to be a recurring problem unless Casemiro gets his shit together
Mind you, against the weaker teams we should be ok to play him and Eriksen together.
Mind you, against the weaker teams we should be ok to play him and Eriksen together.
I don't really think Amrabat requires all the essays -- in terms of skillset, he quite clearly offers something in midfield we don't have. We just need a better version of what he offers.
He is very overrated here. Not a bad player, solid performances but i wouldn't be happy with him as first choice dmc.