Solskjaer's contract

[NasirTimothy]

The counter-argument to that is we have had the established managers before. LvG who was fresh off guiding what was at that point the worst Holland squad in recent memory (it's arguably worse now and since then, granted) to the semi finals of the World Cup, and Jose who won the title at a canter 18 months before he joined.

Both of those two were backed, and backed heavily (with £150m+ net summers) and ultimately didn't do enough to justify their jobs.

Ole meanwhile, has had much less support than either and his squad is still essentially comprised of academy players that Ole brought through like Greenwood and Williams, and players that Jose didn't rate (Shaw, Pogba, Martial), saw as squad players (McTominay, Rashford), or were borderline jokes (Fred). Of that Jose team who finished second the only regulars from it who are still playing an active role right now are DDG and Lindelof, and almost all of the main totems of it have either been sold or marginalised. He sold Lukaku, Fellaini, Sanchez, Smalling. He has also now marginalised Matic and Mata, while Jones is fully MIA and Lingard will most likely be gone in the summer. Ole's overseen and improved upon the players he had at his disposal. Something that LvG and Jose didn't really do much of in all their time here, or at least no examples of such are jumping out at me right now.

Added to all of that, Ole has had only three proper, first team signings in this squad (all of whom were purchased in his first full season - AWB, Maguire, and Bruno). That he's managed to get us punching where we are, is a testament to him and the players. And for me, he deserves proper backing now, to the extent that LvG and Jose got, to see where we can get to under his stewardship. It really wouldn't hurt to see where we end up with him considering he's more than proved he's deserving of that backing.

If after that, we're still at around 3rd or 4th, then by all means we should let him go and wish him all the best. But up until then, I frankly can't see how anyone can't at least give him the benefit of the doubt - not just because of his former status as a player (where he really and truly was a legend and always will be) but because of the strength of the job he has done. Two seasons of solid progress across that period, with all the constraints he's had with the board, is pretty damn good all things considered, IMO.

I’d actually push back against the bolded a little bit. LVG was a dinosaur who hadn’t managed in the club game for yonks and was thus out of touch (the club game and internationals are very different).

And Mourinho had been successful but he was never going to be accepted by the majority of United fans in the long run because his style of football was antithetical to their ideals.

However, it’s worth pointing out that both those guys, though unsuitable, won more trophies than Ole has up to this point.

I get the idea of choosing a manager who is younger and less established, but as I said before, it’s got to be someone who is exceptional for a club this size.

I don’t have a dog in this fight, so if Ole leads United to the league and the champions league in the next couple of years, I’ll happily hold my hands up and say ‘job well done sir.’ But I really can’t envisage that scenario and I don’t think it’s the most likely outcome. I’m just trying to be honest about what I see.

 

[VP89]

Come on. Better to spend 10m more on a quality player like Maguire than waste another 35m on an average defender. AWB has been a great signing. Defensively he's the best FB in the world. Going forward, he's improved quite a bit and I feel he will end up provide good quality offensively in another year or two.

James was a 15m punt. Not a world beater, but definitely has some use. If we're talking about the cheaper players, one can always say players like Shaqiri, Tsimikas, Minamino have been failures. But anyways, don't see this going anywhere, so will leave it here

No I disagree with this. Maguire wasn't even Leicester's best defender. We could have got Evans in for half the price who would have actually made the same impact or more (vastly underrated defender to be honest).
Yes, James was a punt, but that's my point. He hasn't been on the right side of this punt.
Klopp makes mistakes too, obviously. But he brought in Salah, Allison, Mane, VVD and Fabinho. These are gold level transfers over a couple windows. So far Ole has Bruno, and then the rest are not on the same level by way of impact. I don't think that's unfair to say.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Prove it. All the evidence provided is massively to the contrary. You were an active poster here at the time, so surely if it was that clear you'd have written something about it at the time.

Ok so away from your petty battle with me which is clearly obscuring your ability to rationally debate - what are your views on it? You seem obsessed with me being 'called out' and discredited. So I'll give you your victory, I'm a clueless internet fan who was chatting shit about Liverpool.

So now we can engage more rationally I hope. Forget my views here, and tell me whether the general consensus in the media and amoung Liverpool fans was that Klopp had a very clear tactical plan very early on? That's all I want to know.

 

[anant]

Sure

I don't think Ole is not among top 98 managers. This is what you said, fair to assume you think he's in the top 100 even though your double negative makes it confusing. You didn't really answer my question though. Do you think Ole will ever reach top ten level?

Literally no one knows. But if the guy is beating those top 10 managers consistently, I'd assume that he has the potential to reach that level.

 

[Amir]

Literally no one knows. But if the guy is beating those top 10 managers consistently, I'd assume that he has the potential to reach that level.

Sam Allardyce beat top managers too. With a lot less money.

 

[Bilbo]

It's not in perfect hinsight, what sort of a bizzare point is this? I showed articles that explained his development. I barely ever posted in the Klopp thread, so just because I didn't type out any words, I must not have thought it? feck sake this is such bent logic, it's just too much now.

My reason for asking is simple. Everyone is having their say about our future prospects under Ole at a early(ish) stage of a complete overhaul of the squad/team. By claiming that it was so obvious that Klopp's rebuild had more potential than our current one you are using that as a qualifier for knowledge based on experience - in other words you saw things then that you don't see now. Its easy to say it now when things have worked out pretty well for Liverpool. Being wise after the event is not the same as seeing things at the time.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Literally no one knows. But if the guy is beating those top 10 managers consistently, I'd assume that he has the potential to reach that level.

Of course no one knows but i just asked for your opinion. But its all good, words like assume and potential tell me enough. I think it's safe to say whatever happens this window most ole contract extenders will still not really expect the title next season.

 

[VP89]

My reason for asking is simple. Everyone is having their say about our future prospects under Ole at a early(ish) stage of a complete overhaul of the squad/team. By claiming that it was so obvious that Klopp's rebuild had more potential than our current one you are using that as a qualifier for knowledge based on experience - in other words you saw things then that you don't see now. Its easy to say it now when things have worked out pretty well for Liverpool. Being wise after the event is not the same as seeing things at the time.

And to be clear, my view on Klopp was always that he would do big things in the PL.

If you cast your searches back to posts about him before he was Liverpool manager, we were all itching for him. Why? Because he is a manager who has a track record and pedigree of building a system that can win silverware. You don't need hindsight for that.

For what it's worth even after he joined Liverpool I felt he'd be a success. Granted I didn't know he'd do a CL and PL so quickly but I knew he'd be a success on some level. That's not about hindsight, it's just from knowing how he is as a manager from seeing the impact he had with Dortmund.

 

[Desert Eagle]

My reason for asking is simple. Everyone is having their say about our future prospects under Ole at a early(ish) stage of a complete overhaul of the squad/team. By claiming that it was so obvious that Klopp's rebuild had more potential than our current one you are using that as a qualifier for knowledge based on experience - in other words you saw things then that you don't see now. Its easy to say it now when things have worked out pretty well for Liverpool. Being wise after the event is not the same as seeing things at the time.

If you really think this is early into the great Ole rebuild after two plus seasons, 4 windows and 300 million euros spent then it is what it is.

 

[Bilbo]

Ok so away from your petty battle with me which is clearly obscuring your ability to rationally debate - what are your views on it? You seem obsessed with me being 'called out' and discredited. So I'll give you your victory, I'm a clueless internet fan who was chatting shit about Liverpool.

So now we can engage more rationally I hope. Forget my views here, and tell me whether the general consensus in the media and amoung Liverpool fans was that Klopp had a very clear tactical plan very early on? That's all I want to know.

I'm not trying to discredit you, or Klopp. All I'm asking you to do is back up your claim that it was obvious back then what he was doing.

Mate, I've taken some out-there positions in the past. I did then and still do believe that we should have given Moyes another season, and I'll defend that opinion because it was mine even if it makes me look foolish. If I was to claim now that Moyes was obviously in over his head and someone found posts to the contrary, I'd be in a similar spot, no?

 

[Crashoutcassius]

The summary of why he shouldn't be renewed is now 'ignore what he has done this season, think about what I predict he will do next season, but don't take into account how wrong my prediction for this season has just been'

 

[devilish]

Our situation reminds me of what happened in SAF's last years with goalpost slightly moved. United were in a steady decline on and off the pitch. The few who complained were silenced by the majority who were just happy to just close both eyes as long that trophies were won. That situation remained up until we fount ourselves 7th place. The current situation is no different. Our football is dire, more and more players are leaving the club and they are doing well (Lingard, Lukaku etc) and our transfer strategy this summer was anything but shocking. However the majority will be happy with all of that as long as we make it to top 4. Things will nosedive very quickly once we won't.

 

[Bilbo]

If you really think this is early into the great Ole rebuild after two plus seasons, 4 windows and 300 million euros spent then it is what it is.

Yeah I think its quite early, but then again I'm an incredibly patient person if I believe something is worth giving time to. Using recent examples it took two outstanding managers in Pep and Klopp time and a lot of money to build great sides. Going even further back, and why not as we're United fans, it took Ferguson even longer. It is what it is.

 

[anant]

Sam Allardyce beat top managers too. With a lot less money.

Did we have a winning record against say Fergie? How often was he winning these games?

I'm not talking about one-offs. If you're beating this City side consistently, there can be just two possibilities: 1. Ole isn't that bad tactically as many like to think; 2. Pep is incredibly naive in his games vs us.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I'm not trying to discredit you, or Klopp. All I'm asking you to do is back up your claim that it was obvious back then what he was doing.

Mate, I've taken some out-there positions in the past. I did then and still do believe that we should have given Moyes another season, and I'll defend that opinion because it was mine even if it makes me look foolish. If I was to claim now that Moyes was obviously in over his head and someone found posts to the contrary, I'd be in a similar spot, no?

Bilbo, those earth shatteringly 'calling out' posts were made after you called the below 'guff':

My problem is that it was far more evident exactly what Klopp wanted to do with Liverpool tactically, from his early days in the job. With Ole, it's nowhere near as evident

So before the witch hunt had started, you called this point guff. The point merely said from a 'tactical' standpoint and I said nothing further on it. So I'll ask again, would you agree that Klopp had a more defined, identifiable tactical system than Ole which was evident very early in his reign? That's what all of this is about but has been twisted for some reason. Whether I thought he did or not is fine, but would you agree it's a factual statement?

I don't care about being wrong mate, I'm here over ten years and have posted some twaddle I thought Mourinho would have us a title by his second season ffs. That's not what this is about though and you know it. Some have chose to personally attack me rather than debate what was a rather innocuous, inoffensive post.

 

[Dec9003]

The only problem with looking at it as a long term overhaul of the squad is that last summer we didn’t really improve the squad, and in January we didn’t get anyone. Hopefully Van De Beek comes good, but if not we haven’t moved forward as far as overhauling the squad goes sadly.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Yeah I think its quite early, but then again I'm an incredibly patient person if I believe something is worth giving time to. Using recent examples it took two outstanding managers in Pep and Klopp time and a lot of money to build great sides. Going even further back, and why not as we're United fans, it took Ferguson even longer. It is what it is.

Pep, Fergie and Klopp all did things outside the premier league that make direct comparisons between them and Ole pointless at best and disingenuous at worst. You can find a hundred examples of managers who won a top league/achieved great success in their first year at a club. It doesn't in any way suggest we should only give managers a year just like your bad examples don't suggest the reverse.

 

[Ish]

Bilbo, those earth shatteringly 'calling out' posts were made after you called the below 'guff':



So before the witch hunt had started, you called this point guff. The point merely said from a 'tactical' standpoint and I said nothing further on it. So I'll ask again, would you agree that Klopp had a more defined, identifiable tactical system than Ole which was evident very early in his reign? That's what all of this is about but has been twisted for some reason. Whether I thought he did or not is fine, but would you agree it's a factual statement?

I don't care about being wrong mate, I'm here over ten years and have posted some twaddle I thought Mourinho would have us a title by his second season ffs. That's not what this is about though and you know it. Some have chose to personally attack me rather than debate what was a rather innocuous, inoffensive post.

Way more than i am able to remember Robbie .

Hope you're well bud.

 

[Bilbo]

Bilbo, those earth shatteringly 'calling out' posts were made after you called the below 'guff':



So before the witch hunt had started, you called this point guff. The point merely said from a 'tactical' standpoint and I said nothing further on it. So I'll ask again, would you agree that Klopp had a more defined, identifiable tactical system than Ole which was evident very early in his reign? That's what all of this is about but has been twisted for some reason. Whether I thought he did or not is fine, but would you agree it's a factual statement?

I don't care about being wrong mate, I'm here over ten years and have posted some twaddle I thought Mourinho would have us a title by his second season ffs. That's not what this is about though and you know it. Some have chose to personally attack me rather than debate what was a rather innocuous, inoffensive post.

I called it guff then and I call it guff now. In the non-stop merry-go-round of this ridiculous Ole in/Ole out civil war, I've seen countless posts - always by posters on the Ole out side - trying to discredit Ole by claiming that it was really clear what Klopp was trying to do, as though it couldn't fail and was always going to lead to a 100 point season and CL win.

I was around here then, and the general consensus was that he wasn't in fact capable of that. He was mocked relentlessly for losing 5 finals in a row. Called a choker when it mattered just like Ole is being now. Sure, some of that was Liverpool banter, but in the midst of it all I don't recall too many people brave enough to write posts claiming what you are claiming.

I've said all I can on it now. Thread well and truly derailed. Congrats Ole on the new contract. Well deserved IMO.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I called it guff then and I call it guff now. In the non-stop merry-go-round of this ridiculous Ole in/Ole out civil war, I've seen countless posts - always by posters on the Ole out side - trying to discredit Ole by claiming that it was really clear what Klopp was trying to do, as though it couldn't fail and was always going to lead to a 100 point season and CL win.

I was around here then, and the general consensus was that he wasn't in fact capable of that. He was mocked relentlessly for losing 5 finals in a row. Called a choker when it mattered just like Ole is being now. Sure, some of that was Liverpool banter, but in the midst of it all I don't recall too many people brave enough to write posts claiming what you are claiming.

I've said all I can on it now. Thread well and truly derailed. Congrats Ole on the new contract. Well deserved IMO.

Ok so you won't answer a fairly simple question, as you were.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Way more than i am able to remember Robbie .

Hope you're well bud.

Way too many mate.

All good here, hope you're keeping well too

 

[Ish]

Way too many mate.

All good here, hope you're keeping well too

Hahaha don't worry, i have at least twice as much twaddle that i've posted. . No complaints man, just waiting on club football to resume.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Hahaha don't worry, i have at least twice as much twaddle that i've posted. . No complaints man, just waiting on club football to resume.

Couldn't agree more! The international breaks are a killer, not to mention that we (Ireland) have just been beaten by Serbia and fecking Luxembourg

 

[Amir]

Did we have a winning record against say Fergie? How often was he winning these games?

I'm not talking about one-offs. If you're beating this City side consistently, there can be just two possibilities: 1. Ole isn't that bad tactically as many like to think; 2. Pep is incredibly naive in his games vs us.

I don't expect a Bolton manager to regularly be beating Man United. It's rather different when United face City.

Ole isn't bad tactically in certain situations. It's just not enough because sides like United need to find a system that will serve them most of the time.

 

[crossy1686]

Sam Allardyce beat top managers too. With a lot less money.

Which should absolutely tell you that there isn't much between managers at an elite level and it's more down to the players, club culture, work environment and other intrinsic values we can't measure. So swapping the manager out and resetting those things for someone who wears vest jackets and talks about passing triangles is a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Siorac]

Did we have a winning record against say Fergie? How often was he winning these games?

They got promoted in 2001 with Allardyce and they won at Old Trafford in both 2001/02 and 2002/03. That's quite impressive, really.

 

[Amir]

Which should absolutely tell you that there isn't much between managers at an elite level and it's more down to the players, club culture, work environment and other intrinsic values we can't measure. So swapping the manager out and resetting those things for someone who wears vest jackets and talks about passing triangles is a waste of everyone's time.

It tells me mostly that football is so much bigger than one-off games, and that creating a really top team normally requires having something special.

 

[crossy1686]

It tells me mostly that football is so much bigger than one-off games, and that creating a really top team normally requires having something special.

Yeah, a tonne of money and a consistent recruitment strategy of hiring the right personalities and mindsets.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Which should absolutely tell you that there isn't much between managers at an elite level and it's more down to the players, club culture, work environment and other intrinsic values we can't measure. So swapping the manager out and resetting those things for someone who wears vest jackets and talks about passing triangles is a waste of everyone's time.

In top level sports the two most important factors are talent of the players and tactics/coaching. Sports at the top level keeps evolving. We need modern ideas, people at the cutting edge not a tribute act and constant attachment to the past.

 

[anant]

They got promoted in 2001 with Allardyce and they won at Old Trafford in both 2001/02 and 2002/03. That's quite impressive, really.

That's two wins and against just one side. Our record, like it or not, is incredible against top sides. Just think about it for a moment - a winning record vs City and Chelsea, Spurs, Leicester. An equal record vs Pool, PSG

 

[Amir]

That's two wins and against just one side. Our record, like it or not, is incredible against top sides. Just think about it for a moment - a winning record vs City and Chelsea, Spurs, Leicester. An equal record vs Pool, PSG

We're Manchester United. We kind of have the resources that mean those records shouldn't be so stunning.

 

[Siorac]

That's two wins and against just one side. Our record, like it or not, is incredible against top sides. Just think about it for a moment - a winning record vs City and Chelsea, Spurs, Leicester. An equal record vs Pool, PSG

He did it with Bolton though, so there's that. Though I'm sure someone will perk up to claim they had a better squad than we do now, or something.

 

[VidaRed]

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Our situation reminds me of what happened in SAF's last years with goalpost slightly moved. United were in a steady decline on and off the pitch. The few who complained were silenced by the majority who were just happy to just close both eyes as long that trophies were won. That situation remained up until we fount ourselves 7th place. The current situation is no different. Our football is dire, more and more players are leaving the club and they are doing well (Lingard, Lukaku etc) and our transfer strategy this summer was anything but shocking. However the majority will be happy with all of that as long as we make it to top 4. Things will nosedive very quickly once we won't.

your argument is that Lukaku and Lingard are doing well.

you are easily one of the most negative posters on here, and are always coming up with mental gymnastics to have a go at the club.

this is bad even for you.

 

[red4ever 79]

Without getting into all manners of a debate I would just say this. Watching Utd this season barring the odd game here or there, has been incredibly dull. Our style of play is nauseating and this playing two holding midfielders every game is a brand of dinosaur football. I dont think we are any better to watch today then we were when Jose was here.

 

[rotherham_red]

I’d actually push back against the bolded a little bit. LVG was a dinosaur who hadn’t managed in the club game for yonks and was thus out of touch (the club game and internationals are very different).

And Mourinho had been successful but he was never going to be accepted by the majority of United fans in the long run because his style of football was antithetical to their ideals.

However, it’s worth pointing out that both those guys, though unsuitable, won more trophies than Ole has up to this point.

I get the idea of choosing a manager who is younger and less established, but as I said before, it’s got to be someone who is exceptional for a club this size.

I don’t have a dog in this fight, so if Ole leads United to the league and the champions league in the next couple of years, I’ll happily hold my hands up and say ‘job well done sir.’ But I really can’t envisage that scenario and I don’t think it’s the most likely outcome. I’m just trying to be honest about what I see.

LvG won the title and got the the CL final with Bayern just before taking that Holland job on. He also won the Dutch league with Alkmaar immediately before that too. I dunno, when you look at the weight of evidence, it isn't of someone who was a dinosaur. Short-term? Definitely, but his methods seemed to work everywhere he went until he came to Utd, which arguably says more about us and our board, than him IMO.

Don't disagree on Jose either, but his recent record was still that of excellence. Won the title at every club he went to, except us. Again, that tells me more about the club than it does him, and I say that as someone who hated Jose and his brand of football for most of the time he was at the club.

Both managers needed backing but both managed to feck it up for themselves by being belligerent. We needed someone like Ole. Someone canny enough to negotiate the different stakeholders but also someone who can maximise the resources he has at his disposal. I'd argue he's done both very well, but make no bones about it, this squad was already not fit for purpose before he arrived and despite him doing his side of the bargain, the board haven't done theirs. When you look at the big picture, I'm really not sure where these complaints are coming from. It looks like he'll have Top 4 for two seasons in a row, something we haven't achieved since SAF. He's drastically reduced the age profile of the squad, and cleared out the deadwood - something we as fans were begging for, for years. He's also taken us from 6th to 2nd (albeit helped by the circumstances) in just over two years. And he's done all that without proper backing from the board.

All I'm saying is, give him the tools to succeed or fail, and we can then make a judgement on him. If it doesn't work out then by all means, let him go and wish him all the best but to think that there is a manager out there who can work with the mess that we have in senior management (and a squad that was as incoherent as ours was) better than what Ole had done during this interim period, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

 

[rotherham_red]

I called it guff then and I call it guff now. In the non-stop merry-go-round of this ridiculous Ole in/Ole out civil war, I've seen countless posts - always by posters on the Ole out side - trying to discredit Ole by claiming that it was really clear what Klopp was trying to do, as though it couldn't fail and was always going to lead to a 100 point season and CL win.

I was around here then, and the general consensus was that he wasn't in fact capable of that. He was mocked relentlessly for losing 5 finals in a row. Called a choker when it mattered just like Ole is being now. Sure, some of that was Liverpool banter, but in the midst of it all I don't recall too many people brave enough to write posts claiming what you are claiming.

I've said all I can on it now. Thread well and truly derailed. Congrats Ole on the new contract. Well deserved IMO.
Agreed. Up until he got Fabinho and Allison, no one on here was thinking Klopp was going anywhere but maintaining Top 4, which was tbf what, from the outside looking in, seemed to be FSG's plan.

 

[Luffy]

Without getting into all manners of a debate I would just say this. Watching Utd this season barring the odd game here or there, has been incredibly dull. Our style of play is nauseating and this playing two holding midfielders every game is a brand of dinosaur football. I dont think we are any better to watch today then we were when Jose was here.

Jose's last year brought much more miserable football than Ole.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Yeah I think its quite early, but then again I'm an incredibly patient person if I believe something is worth giving time to. Using recent examples it took two outstanding managers in Pep and Klopp time and a lot of money to build great sides. Going even further back, and why not as we're United fans, it took Ferguson even longer. It is what it is.

What would your thoughts be if instead of Ole taking over when he did we employed someone with no affiliation to the club and we are in the exact same position we're in now.

It's probably true we've played some of our best football since SAF but those games are very few and far between with the majority of the games falling below the standard expected from us as a club. A rebuild can only be used as an excuse for so long and many on here think the time already given with our standard of play generally isn't where we think it should be which I know is where your opinion differs but would you have the same patience if it was big Sam sitting in the hotseat and not Ole?

 

[pocco]

Jose's last year brought much more miserable football than Ole.

Agreed. But the season before? Very similar. We've spent so much since then too, not to mention hiring Ole who many said would bring back exciting football and clear out the bad characters. So what has it all achieved since that season?