Solskjaer's contract

[VP89]

It was the only part worth responding to, but thanks a bunch for simplifying it for me anyway.

I dont think it was the only part, because you failed to actually digest the rest, since we are going round in circles here.

The fundamental issue here is that people still seem to think that Ole sends out 11 of his mates and tells them to enjoy themselves.

No. I never once said this, or insinuated this.

I'm obviously aware that there is a little bit more to top level football than buy good players -> win.

In your previous posts, that's pretty much all you boiled Klopp's success down to, so you were certainly insinuating it.

There have been numerous articles posted on here by writers that understand tactics far better than I do regarding how Ole is building the layers within this team, and even my untrained eye had spotted some of these. Mind you, Ole's philosophy doesn't have a fancy name so its probably not worth considering.

We know what Ole is building, and I never said he has failed to make positive impacts. The problem is, it is too differentiating and he has not found a trusted system and philosophy that he can hang his hat on that's sustainable in the long term. You will find many more articles to explain this, than you would about your "layers" in the team. So when you lazily compare to Klopp I think you need to get your ducks in a row and know that Klopp knew his system and philosophy long before Ole did, and that he knew his transfer targets a lot better than Ole does. It's very easy to point to Maguire or Sancho and say "I want them" and it's harder to find rough diamonds and polish them to world class players like Salah and Mane. So transfer acumen is important, philosophy is important, tactics is important and so is man management. Ole certainly has man management, and he's unproven on all the rest.

 

[Robbie Boy]

It is though isn't it? Anant completely took you apart on this with your own words. Your agenda back then was to dislike Klopp so you criticised him, which is fine (using far more hostile language than guff I might add). Your agenda now is to dislike Ole so you criticise him, which is fine too. It falls apart though when the same period of Klopps career you used to criticise you now praise to suit some other argument. It comes across as though you're making it up as you go along.

What did he take apart really? Plenty of those posts are defending our manager at the time against wummy Liverpool fans who were slating him and bigging up Klopp. Yes, amazingly I, as a United fan was defending our manager. I actually still had high hopes for Mourinho around that time so there you go. And yes, I happen to be a fan of Rodgers and early days, their records were quite similar so I posted that too. And yes, a-lot of it was silly tribalism against pretty irritating Liverpool fans. Worth noting too, that the amount of love our own fans were giving him was a wee bit sickening at times.

Soooo, what did he pull apart exactly? All he done was dig up old posts in an attempt to discredit me rather than debate the topic at hand. I personally haven't the will nor - and I think it's a-bit sad - the desire to go back through peoples old posts in an attempt to discredit them on the internet. Where does it end? Do we all just do this now for every debate. It's pretty clear several posters in here are now becoming personal with me as they have an issue with me. That's their cross to bare, not mine. They can continue their little campaign but I amen't in the slightest bit bothered.

Difference is, some are a lost cause but I always had you down as fairly rational. Not so sure now though mate. As I said, just because 'you've supported Ole from day one' - it makes zero difference to anyone. Sure, some of your like-minded pals may give you a pat on the back but no one else cares. It comes across as just being rigidly entrenched in a view point. The peole who bitch and moan the most about other posters are all stauch 'Ole in' - I honestly believe if some were just more flexible in their opinions about them, they would stop being so pent up all the time. I've also noticed your new habit whereby you take a sample piece from a post and attempt to discredit it while ignoring the rest of the post - as you did to me. You also tried telling me the other day that 'Ole ins' aren't as bad as the out crowd. Your mates have let you down badly the last few days, unfortunately - which again shows how desperate you are to see things from one side only.

For what it's worth, I don't agree with your overly positive views on Ole and think you spin positives out of anything. You also have a habit in talking in opinion in an attempt to discredit facts. I could have pulled apart your Rodgers post as agenda driven nonsense given that you chose to solely focus on his European record. Instead I praised it as it was better than some of the hysterical nonsense being posted about him. You see, I thought it's better for the forum as a whole to have at least a-few rational, non-hysterical 'Ole ins' to converse with.

Just to clear again, this is the part of a very balanced post which started your pals on another attempted witch hunt against me:

My problem is that it was far more evident exactly what Klopp wanted to do with Liverpool tactically, from his early days in the job. With Ole, it's nowhere near as evident

So yes, I said 'tactically' it was clear what he wanted to. I literally didn't say anything else about him and look at the absolute state of the responses...

 

[Bilbo]

In your previous posts, that's pretty much all you boiled Klopp's success down to, so you were certainly insinuating it.

Well Liverpool went from 75 & 76 points right up to 97 & 99 after they signed VVD, Allison & Fabinho. I absolutely do think that the most important reason for that giant leap forwards was the addition of those players, but at the same I obviously wasn't insinuating that Klopp wasn't also a factor. I hoped that would go without saying to be honest, given my backing of Ole couldn't possibly make any sense unless I thought managers were important.

My base belief in all of this is that Ole is also a capable coach/tactician, good enough for this club, and that we will take a similar leap forward in our win rate/progress/whatever when and if we are able to add the players that we so obviously need. Simple as that.

 

[rotherham_red]

Well, it looks special constable Robbie Boy is doing his level best to suck out any enthusiasm on this thread as per usual... Somehow, fans of the club aren't allowed to show any support for the job the manager is doing, and can only do so if we're "level headed" (no, I haven't got a clue what that means either). If we were in his vicinity, I wouldn't be surprised if he complained that we were breathing the wrong way.

Can the mods look into this please? @Sultan @Damien @golden_blunder, it's getting more than a tad tedious.

 

[Bilbo]

What did he take apart really? Plenty of those posts are defending our manager at the time against wummy Liverpool fans who were slating him and bigging up Klopp. Yes, amazingly I, as a United fan was defending our manager. I actually still had high hopes for Mourinho around that time so there you go. And yes, I happen to be a fan of Rodgers and early days, their records were quite similar so I posted that too. And yes, a-lot of it was silly tribalism against pretty irritating Liverpool fans. Worth noting too, that the amount of love our own fans were giving him was a wee bit sickening at times.

Soooo, what did he pull apart exactly? All he done was dig up old posts in an attempt to discredit me rather than debate the topic at hand. I personally haven't the will nor - and I think it's a-bit sad - the desire to go back through peoples old posts in an attempt to discredit them on the internet. Where does it end? Do we all just do this now for every debate. It's pretty clear several posters in here are now becoming personal with me as they have an issue with me. That's their cross to bare, not mine. They can continue their little campaign but I amen't in the slightest bit bothered.

Difference is, some are a lost cause but I always had you down as fairly rational. Not so sure now though mate. As I said, just because 'you've supported Ole from day one' - it makes zero difference to anyone. Sure, some of your like-minded pals may give you a pat on the back but no one else cares. It comes across as just being rigidly entrenched in a view point. The peole who bitch and moan the most about other posters are all stauch 'Ole in' - I honestly believe if some were just more flexible in their opinions about them, they would stop being so pent up all the time. I've also noticed your new habit whereby you take a sample piece from a post and attempt to discredit it while ignoring the rest of the post - as you did to me. You also tried telling me the other day that 'Ole ins' aren't as bad as the out crowd. Your mates have let you down badly the last few days, unfortunately - which again shows how desperate you are to see things from one side only.

For what it's worth, I don't agree with your overly positive views on Ole and think you spin positives out of anything. You also have a habit in talking in opinion in an attempt to discredit facts. I could have pulled apart your Rodgers post as agenda driven nonsense given that you chose to solely focus on his European record. Instead I praised it as it was better than some of the hysterical nonsense being posted him. You see, I thouht it's better for the forum as a whole to have at least a-few rational, non-hysterical 'Ole ins' to converse with.

Just to clear again, this is the part of a very balanced post which started your pals on another attempted witch hunt against me:



So yes, I said 'tactically' it was clear what he wanted to. I literally didn't say anything else about him and look at the absolute state of the responses...

You've taken this far too personally. I don't have a problem engaging with you, otherwise I'd have you on ignore. This has all come about because you objected to my use of the word guff . Clearly you've riled up some people on here because your old posts have been searched and they haven't done you any favours on this particular subject. Personally I think its great when people go through old posts. If someone has said something, own it. If you can find an old post you made that supports your view that you could 'see what Klopp was trying to do', rather than the wonder of perfect hindsight, then dig it up and put it out there.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Well, it looks special constable Robbie Boy is doing his level best to suck out any enthusiasm on this thread as per usual... Somehow, fans of the club aren't allowed to show any support for the job the manager is doing, and can only do so if we're "level headed" (no, I haven't got a clue what that means either). If we were in his vicinity, I wouldn't be surprised if he complained that we were breathing the wrong way.

Can the mods look into this please? @Sultan @Damien @golden_blunder, it's getting more than a tad tedious.

There you go making up shite again mate. You're the one getting personal with me and trying to get anyone you can to turn against me. Pretty clear what you are...

 

[VP89]

Well Liverpool went from 75 & 76 points right up to 97 & 99 after they signed VVD, Allison & Fabinho. I absolutely do think that the most important reason for that giant leap forwards was the addition of those players, but at the same I obviously wasn't insinuating that Klopp wasn't also a factor. I hoped that would go without saying to be honest, given my backing of Ole couldn't possibly make any sense unless I thought managers were important.

I've addressed this so many times now - it's not just the transfers, but the fact that he had a consistent tactical style and philosophy that the entire squad was tuned into, which helps when bringing in the final pieces of the puzzle. You don't just jump 20 points from 3 players alone without having the right playing style already factored in.

So for the nth time now, no, the transfers alone were not the "most important reason". See Lampard as an example of how big players can walk in and still feck up the team.

My base belief in all of this is that Ole is also a capable coach/tactician, good enough for this club, and that we will take a similar leap forward in our win rate/progress/whatever when and if we are able to add the players that we so obviously need. Simple as that.

Then you clearly don't listen to the man himself, because he himself said that he does not put too much value in tactics as much as other managers.
And even if that is a belief it's fine to say it but please, do not make lazy comparisons to Klopp when he's there is feck all pedigree to rest on for such an insinuation.

 

[Robbie Boy]

You've taken this far too personally. I don't have a problem engaging with you, otherwise I'd have you on ignore. This has all come about because you objected to my use of the word guff . Clearly you've riled up some people on here because your old posts have been searched and they haven't done you any favours on this particular subject. Personally I think its great when people go through old posts. If someone has said something, own it. If you can find an old post you made that supports your view that you could 'see what Klopp was trying to do', rather than the wonder of perfect hindsight, then dig it up and put it out there.

I'm taking it personally? Wow, I think you'll find it's people getting personal with me.

And no, those posts done nothing to discredit what I wrote, as pointed out in my detailed post.

 

[anant]

It’s fair to say that people doubted Klopp before his success with Liverpool, but there are key differences between him and Ole

1) Klopp had already proven that he was a top class manager prior to joining Liverpool. This makes it more logical to give him time to build something

2) Klopp had more tangible success early on in cup competitions, reaching finals IIRC, something that Ole still hasn’t yet done (we’ll see if he manages it this year)

Giving a guy you know is a great manager time to work things out is different from giving a guy who hasn’t proven anything at the highest level time to work things out.

And no one's doubting that. That's one of the reasons why making a direct comparison between the two is unfair as Klopp has shown pedigree in the past.

However, winning something in the past does not guarantee future success and vice versa. Hell, it took Klopp 2 seasons to figure out that he can't play with the same intensity in PL as he did in BuLi because of lack of Christmas break here. If you're jumping from SAF to Moyes to LVG to Mou to Ole, you'd need to give the managers time because a lot of the players brought under previous managers are going to be useless under the new one.

As far as progress is concerned, surely, people do realize that despite us not having a bench comparable to City or Chelsea, we've done extremely well this season - when we've had to play literally every single mid-week.

I thought Klopp would be a success - even though I did post some bants along the way when he was struggling, as any rival supporter would. I also had a lot of respect for Rodgers even at his absolute worst when he was the butt of all jokes on the caf, maybe it's just the open attacking style I have a soft spot for!

Let's be honest, no one here was confident of that. Everyone knew he's a good manager, but everyone doubted whether that playing intensity would work here, and it didn't. He had lost 5 or 6 finals and everyone had labelled him a bottler.

He got a top class CB and a top class GK to actually turn the fortunes around. People assume that Klopp built the side from nothing but it's not true. He's spent quite a lot of money in getting in not just those two but also Fabinho, Keita, AOC, Shaqiri to improve the depth and quality.

To beat the current City side you need a squad as strong as them, or have a starting XI better than theirs, and go through a season with no injuries (like Pool did)

 

[b82REZ]

Funny that some of the saintly 'Ole in' crowd are acting like childish bully boys looking to get their like-minded pals to get involved in a good old fashioned pile-on.

The mask is slipping lads.

Happened to me a few weeks a go, by the exact same poster. Can't remember what thread it was but a post by me calling Ole a charlatan after our loss to Burnley got piled on by all the usual suspects piling on you now. Cancel culture is very much an issue on the Caf nowadays.

I see you continue to fight the good fight, you must have the patience of a Saint.

 

[VP89]

Let's be honest, no one here was confident of that. Everyone knew he's a good manager, but everyone doubted whether that playing intensity would work here, and it didn't. He had lost 5 or 6 finals and everyone had labelled him a bottler.

You are pointing to caf logic after Liverpool hire managers though.

If you wanted to know what our genuine views about Klopp was - just revisit his threads before he was announced as Liverpool manager. He was absolutely adored and we all wanted him here. And that's because he had managerial pedigree, an attractive philosophy and charisma.

He got a top class CB and a top class GK to actually turn the fortunes around. People assume that Klopp built the side from nothing but it's not true. He's spent quite a lot of money in getting in not just those two but also Fabinho, Keita, AOC, Shaqiri to improve the depth and quality.

To beat the current City side you need a squad as strong as them, or have a starting XI better than theirs, and go through a season with no injuries (like Pool did)

Ergh not this again. No one is denying his transfers were game-changers but they were by no means the sole driver of his fortunes. Also no one denied he brought in players either, (by the way AOC was free, Shakiri was peanuts and Fabinho was a VDB esque fee).

What he had that differentiated himself from the rest was his style, tactics and man management. Think about it - before they finished 2nd in the league, no one said "that Liverpool team were not just 2-3 players away from matching City". No one fecking saw that leap coming, so it's clearly more than just adding a couple of players in and calling it a day. There was a lot more into the achievements than just the transfers and I think that needs to be acknowledged.

So going back to the Ole parallel, it's really annoying when people say " look at how it turned out with Klopp" because 1) the philosophy needs to be clear 2 years in, as it was with Klopp and 2) the transfers have to be spot on. Under Ole, he's certainly overpaid for some talent which arent at the required level and he's not exactly getting the best out of new signings this campaign. And he's not got the set philosophy either, I don't know what to expect from us in any given game. We are sometimes great to watch and other times lethargic. We sometimes play 4321, or other times 532 and random times earlier, a diamond. I'm not sure even he knows.

 

[Bilbo]

I've addressed this so many times now - it's not just the transfers, but the fact that he had a consistent tactical style and philosophy that the entire squad was tuned into, which helps when bringing in the final pieces of the puzzle. You don't just jump 20 points from 3 players alone without having the right playing style already factored in.

So for the nth time now, no, the transfers alone were not the "most important reason". See Lampard as an example of how big players can walk in and still feck up the team.

Then you clearly don't listen to the man himself, because he himself said that he does not put too much value in tactics as much as other managers.
And even if that is a belief it's fine to say it but please, do not make lazy comparisons to Klopp when he's there is feck all pedigree to rest on for such an insinuation.

You do jump 20 points from 3 players alone. When you are able to add a defensive foundation of the quality of those 3 players, you'd improve 20 points whether it was Klopp or Mike Bassett leading the team.

United have improved a dozen points just by adding Bruno - and that's even without having, in your opinion, 'a consistent tactical style and philosophy that the entire squad was tuned into'. We may even have reached a 20 point improvement ourselves if Cavani was a 27 year old player.

Feel free to throw this post back in my face next season. If United can add 2 more quality players this summer and we don't come across as having 'a consistent tactical style and philosophy that the entire squad was tuned into', with better patterns of play, an easily identifiable playing style and all that other crap, then I'll gladly eat a huge slice of humble pie

 

[golden_blunder]

Funny that some of the saintly 'Ole in' crowd are acting like childish bully boys looking to get their like-minded pals to get involved in a good old fashioned pile-on.

The mask is slipping lads.

Give over or get thread banned. You’ve made your point

 

[rotherham_red]

Give over or get thread banned. You’ve made your point

Thanks Golden, much appreciated.

 

[anant]

You are pointing to caf logic after Liverpool hire managers though.

If you wanted to know what our genuine views about Klopp was - just revisit his threads before he was announced as Liverpool manager. He was absolutely adored and we all wanted him here. And that's because he had managerial pedigree, an attractive philosophy and charisma.

Ergh not this again. No one is denying his transfers were game-changers but they were by no means the sole driver of his fortunes. Also no one denied he brought in players either, (by the way AOC was free, Shakiri was peanuts and Fabinho was a VDB esque fee).

What he had that differentiated himself from the rest was his style, tactics and man management. Think about it - before they finished 2nd in the league, no one said "that Liverpool team were not just 2-3 players away from matching City". No one fecking saw that leap coming, so it's clearly more than just adding a couple of players in and calling it a day. There was a lot more into the achievements than just the transfers and I think that needs to be acknowledged.

So going back to the Ole parallel, it's really annoying when people say " look at how it turned out with Klopp" because 1) the philosophy needs to be clear 2 years in, as it was with Klopp and 2) the transfers have to be spot on. Under Ole, he's certainly overpaid for some talent which arent at the required level and he's not exactly getting the best out of new signings this campaign. And he's not got the set philosophy either, I don't know what to expect from us in any given game. We are sometimes great to watch and other times lethargic. We sometimes play 4321, or other times 532 and random times earlier, a diamond. I'm not sure even he knows.

I don't care about caf's feelings about a manager before they were hired. I'm pointing out 3 years after signing for Pool, not many recognized whether the style he was playing with could give them titles. Managerial pedigree and charisma means nothing if it doesn't translate into progress and eventually success.

As far as signings point is concerned - (AOC was 35m signing btw) what these players did was provide them with depth to actually compete over 50-55 games.

No one's saying they saw Pool's rise coming from 75 odd points to CL win+97 in the league, but a lot of it was actually down to the players they bought. Defence which was their biggest concern now had one of the best goalkeepers instead of Karius, VVD was now there for a season, Robertson had now become familiar with his role and TAA was coming into his own.

Sure tactics and man management played a role, but if he stuck with the same style of play and philosophy and everything (which was evident from day 1 with the benefit of hindsight), it was just the players that changed, no? So, it would have been just the players who pushed the side up?

And lastly, I'm not comparing Klopp to Ole - Klopp is among the top 2 managers in the world, Ole won't be in top 98 in most people's lists (as he wont get a job in any of the big 5 leagues as per most people). But the thing is squad genuinely matters if you want to be successful. Pep went from 78(?) points to 100 points by adding players that suited his philosophy. We went from 34 in 24 to 66 in 38 by adding Bruno, and so on.

As far as the philosophy part is concerned, you don't need some unique play style to be appreciated. If you're able to switch things around, with players being competent in this tactic, who am I to say anything on it? Obviously, if it doesn't work well, obviously the manager is the one who'd have to answer the tough questions

 

[VP89]

You do jump 20 points from 3 players alone. When you are able to add a defensive foundation of the quality of those 3 players, you'd improve 20 points whether it was Klopp or Mike Bassett leading the team.

No, you don't.

United have improved a dozen points just by adding Bruno - and that's even without having, in your opinion, 'a consistent tactical style and philosophy that the entire squad was tuned into'. We may even have reached a 20 point improvement ourselves if Cavani was a 27 year old player.

Feel free to throw this post back in my face next season. If United can add 2 more quality players this summer and we don't come across as having 'a consistent tactical style and philosophy that the entire squad was tuned into', with better patterns of play, an easily identifiable playing style and all that other crap, then I'll gladly eat a huge slice of humble pie

It's not crap though. I don't think anyone is denying here that Bruno has made such a massive impact on our team, but our team was underperforming before he joined too - chronically in fact. Lets see how it goes, and I haven't ruled Ole out to be clear - I've just said it's ridiculously premature to start drawing parallels to Klopp.

 

[Bilbo]

No, you don't.

It's not crap though. I don't think anyone is denying here that Bruno has made such a massive impact on our team, but our team was underperforming before he joined too - chronically in fact. Lets see how it goes, and I haven't ruled Ole out to be clear - I've just said it's ridiculously premature to start drawing parallels to Klopp.

And I never did that. Not once. This whole blow up started because I called out Robbie solely for being the latest poster (in a long line of them) to claim to have a clear understanding that they could see what Klopp was doing, which surely by extension would mean that they wouldn't be critical of him during his less successful early period.

Lets be honest, the only reason anyone ever claims that is not from adoration of Klopp, but rather from a position of wanting to critique our own manager. Klopp -> top coach that struggled by gets it. Ole -> poor coach that doesn't.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Looks like we've agreed anyway that tactically it was clear what Klopp wanted to do with Liverpool from early on, as his style had been successful with two separate clubs in the Bundesliga and he also done well in CL.

With Ole, I don't see his style as being nearly as clearly identifiable almost 2 and a half years into a job. Klopp's early issues were clearly with his keeper and defence. However, two and a half years in and our issues are still all over several areas of the pitch which is worrying. It's hard to nail down just what areas we should invest in come the summer given we need quite a-lot by the looks of it - but likely won't have a huge war chest.

Anyhow, it's not been a bad season all things considered and a second place finish and a EL win would make it a pretty good one in all honesty. He was the right man for the job at hand but I'm still not convinced he's the right man to bring us back to the top. No matter what happens though, his time here will be classified as a relative success given the mess he inherited from Jose.

 

[VP89]

I don't care about caf's feelings about a manager before they were hired. I'm pointing out 3 years after signing for Pool, not many recognized whether the style he was playing with could give them titles. Managerial pedigree and charisma means nothing if it doesn't translate into progress and eventually success.

But it's a flawed approach, because the caf will shit on anything related to Liverpool even if the player or manager has merit. Look at how the caf adored Klopp before Liverpool to see what their actual view of his credentials were. And no, generally speaking managerial pedigree and positive charisma counts for a lot - I can't think of an example of a manager coming into a big club with those 2 assets, and who then failed to win trophies?

As far as signings point is concerned - (AOC was 35m signing btw) what these players did was provide them with depth to actually compete over 50-55 games.

No one's saying they saw Pool's rise coming from 75 odd points to CL win+97 in the league, but a lot of it was actually down to the players they bought. Defence which was their biggest concern now had one of the best goalkeepers instead of Karius, VVD was now there for a season, Robertson had now become familiar with his role and TAA was coming into his own.

Noted on AOC, and again, we are on the same page in saying the transfers made a big deal. But there is a huge factor by way of the development of the players and tactical ability. And you also need to get transfers spot on on top, which Ole has so far failed to do.

Sure tactics and man management played a role, but if he stuck with the same style of play and philosophy and everything (which was evident from day 1 with the benefit of hindsight), it was just the players that changed, no? So, it would have been just the players who pushed the side up?

Yes, the players helped but as I've already explained, he did tweak his pressing to control games more when he had the right players. So any comparisons to Ole (not by yourself but generally), are far-fetched, because Ole hasn't even started such a system.

And lastly, I'm not comparing Klopp to Ole - Klopp is among the top 2 managers in the world, Ole won't be in top 98 in most people's lists (as he wont get a job in any of the big 5 leagues as per most people). But the thing is squad genuinely matters if you want to be successful. Pep went from 78(?) points to 100 points by adding players that suited his philosophy. We went from 34 in 24 to 66 in 38 by adding Bruno, and so on.

We're on the same page then, but my point is that it's hugely presumptuous to think Ole will make the same jump.

As far as the philosophy part is concerned, you don't need some unique play style to be appreciated. If you're able to switch things around, with players being competent in this tactic, who am I to say anything on it? Obviously, if it doesn't work well, obviously the manager is the one who'd have to answer the tough questions

I agree wholeheartedly, however there is too much change in Ole's system. I don't know what his first choice center back pairing is when Baily is fit. And I don't know why he had a period moving Pogba around left and right wing. There are random things he does that I don't quite understand and I don't really see them as working elements either, which is why I get a bit confused by what he's trying to implement. Some things do work out, e.g. Pogba on the left when we beat Milan. Other things don't, like Pogba on the right vs Liverpool, as examples. Another example would be VDB starting box to box, doing well, then dropping him for 3 months and putting him in a 10. Or having James start in games where we know he's not needed, eg. Newcastle, or Chelsea. Where he had to be hooked off before we made a difference.

 

[Robbie Boy]

And I never did that. Not once. This whole blow up started because I called out Robbie solely for being the latest poster (in a long line of them) to claim to have a clear understanding that they could see what Klopp was doing, which surely by extension would mean that they wouldn't be critical of him during his less successful early period.

Lets be honest, the only reason anyone ever claims that is not from adoration of Klopp, but rather from a position of wanting to critique our own manager. Klopp -> top coach that struggled by gets it. Ole -> poor coach that doesn't.

Again, no one was 'called out' - it was abundantly clear 'tactically' what Klopp wanted to achieve as he played that football at both Mainz and Dortmund. I specifically said tactically in my post so no, no one was called out. If anything, you possibly misread or misconstrued what I wrote.

Yes, it was great having a laugh at him initially as he looked quite naive at times trying to transfer his playing style from the Bundesliga to the PL. But it was still clear from a tactical perspective how he wanted Liverpool to play. Sure, it took time and resources and we had some doubts. I can't imagine Liverpool fans had many doubts two and a half years into his reign though - which would be a better barometer. There's a reason why he's probably the most talked about rival manager on here - bar Wenger- and it was because people were genuinely worried he would turn Liverpool into a good side. Sure, we all had banter about it but it was obvious people were actually worried.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I don't care about caf's feelings about a manager before they were hired. I'm pointing out 3 years after signing for Pool, not many recognized whether the style he was playing with could give them titles. Managerial pedigree and charisma means nothing if it doesn't translate into progress and eventually success.

As far as signings point is concerned - (AOC was 35m signing btw) what these players did was provide them with depth to actually compete over 50-55 games.

No one's saying they saw Pool's rise coming from 75 odd points to CL win+97 in the league, but a lot of it was actually down to the players they bought. Defence which was their biggest concern now had one of the best goalkeepers instead of Karius, VVD was now there for a season, Robertson had now become familiar with his role and TAA was coming into his own.

Sure tactics and man management played a role, but if he stuck with the same style of play and philosophy and everything (which was evident from day 1 with the benefit of hindsight), it was just the players that changed, no? So, it would have been just the players who pushed the side up?

And lastly, I'm not comparing Klopp to Ole - Klopp is among the top 2 managers in the world, Ole won't be in top 98 in most people's lists (as he wont get a job in any of the big 5 leagues as per most people). But the thing is squad genuinely matters if you want to be successful. Pep went from 78(?) points to 100 points by adding players that suited his philosophy. We went from 34 in 24 to 66 in 38 by adding Bruno, and so on.

As far as the philosophy part is concerned, you don't need some unique play style to be appreciated. If you're able to switch things around, with players being competent in this tactic, who am I to say anything on it? Obviously, if it doesn't work well, obviously the manager is the one who'd have to answer the tough questions

Re the bolded, I don’t understand how you can accept this, and yet wonder why some United fans don’t want Ole? We all know that he wouldn’t have been employed by any other big club.

The point is that even if United spend more and further improve their squad, he may still lack the managerial and leadership skills to make Manchester United dominant in England and Europe. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable view, given the evidence of his managerial career thus far.

 

[anant]

Re the bolded, I don’t understand how you can accept this, and yet wonder why some United fans don’t want Ole? We all know that he wouldn’t have been employed by any other big club.

The point is that even if United spend more and further improve their squad, he may still lack the managerial and leadership skills to make Manchester United dominant in England and Europe. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable view, given the evidence of his managerial career thus far.

I don't think Ole is not among top 98 managers. Hell, the fact that we've beaten literally every team we've faced in his tenure at least once (bar Barcelona), tells me that tactically he is very good.

Look at his record against the top managers. vs Klopp, L1 W1 drew other games, vs Pep, we have a winning record, have lost and won same number of games vs PSG, won more games vs Chelsea than we've lost, and I can go on. Not having a set play style and not having tactical knowledge are two vastly different things

 

[Desert Eagle]

Well Liverpool went from 75 & 76 points right up to 97 & 99 after they signed VVD, Allison & Fabinho. I absolutely do think that the most important reason for that giant leap forwards was the addition of those players, but at the same I obviously wasn't insinuating that Klopp wasn't also a factor. I hoped that would go without saying to be honest, given my backing of Ole couldn't possibly make any sense unless I thought managers were important.

My base belief in all of this is that Ole is also a capable coach/tactician, good enough for this club, and that we will take a similar leap forward in our win rate/progress/whatever when and if we are able to add the players that we so obviously need. Simple as that.

Ole has spent about 300 million on 9 different players. He has had 4 transfer windows. If in this current window he signs a couple players for lets say 45 mil each would you say he's been given enough money and time?

 

[rotherham_red]

Re the bolded, I don’t understand how you can accept this, and yet wonder why some United fans don’t want Ole? We all know that he wouldn’t have been employed by any other big club.

The point is that even if United spend more and improve their squad, he may still lack the managerial and leadership skills to make Manchester United dominant in England and Europe. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable view, given the evidence of his managerial career thus far.

The counter-argument to that is we have had the established managers before. LvG who was fresh off guiding what was at that point the worst Holland squad in recent memory (it's arguably worse now and since then, granted) to the semi finals of the World Cup, and Jose who won the title at a canter 18 months before he joined.

Both of those two were backed, and backed heavily (with £150m+ net summers) and ultimately didn't do enough to justify their jobs.

Ole meanwhile, has had much less support than either and his squad is still essentially comprised of academy players that Ole brought through like Greenwood and Williams, and players that Jose didn't rate (Shaw, Pogba, Martial), saw as squad players (McTominay, Rashford), or were borderline jokes (Fred). Of that Jose team who finished second the only regulars from it who are still playing an active role right now are DDG and Lindelof, and almost all of the main totems of it have either been sold or marginalised. He sold Lukaku, Fellaini, Sanchez, Smalling. He has also now marginalised Matic and Mata, while Jones is fully MIA and Lingard will most likely be gone in the summer. Ole's overseen and improved upon the players he had at his disposal. Something that LvG and Jose didn't really do much of in all their time here, or at least no examples of such are jumping out at me right now.

Added to all of that, Ole has had only three proper, first team signings in this squad (all of whom were purchased in his first full season - AWB, Maguire, and Bruno). That he's managed to get us punching where we are, is a testament to him and the players. And for me, he deserves proper backing now, to the extent that LvG and Jose got, to see where we can get to under his stewardship. It really wouldn't hurt to see where we end up with him considering he's more than proved he's deserving of that backing.

If after that, we're still at around 3rd or 4th, then by all means we should let him go and wish him all the best. But up until then, I frankly can't see how anyone can't at least give him the benefit of the doubt - not just because of his former status as a player (where he really and truly was a legend and always will be) but because of the strength of the job he has done. Two seasons of solid progress across that period, with all the constraints he's had with the board, is pretty damn good all things considered, IMO.

 

[rotherham_red]

Ole has spent about 300 million on 9 different players. He has had 4 transfer windows. If in this current window he signs a couple players for lets say 45 mil each would you say he's been given enough money and time?

No he hasn't. He's spent £220m and about half of that figure (if not slightly more) was recouped from sales.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Ole has spent about 300 million on 9 different players. He has had 4 transfer windows. If in this current window he signs a couple players for lets say 45 mil each would you say he's been given enough money and time?

I think it's been fairly unanimously agreed for a long time now that bigger things are expected of him in his third full season. Afterall, Klopp won the CL in his third season and got 97 points in the PL. Their records have been competed on here for a long while now, so next season is a huge one for Ole.

 

[Desert Eagle]

I don't think Ole is not among top 98 managers. Hell, the fact that we've beaten literally every team we've faced in his tenure at least once (bar Barcelona), tells me that tactically he is very good.

Look at his record against the top managers. vs Klopp, L1 W1 drew other games, vs Pep, we have a winning record, have lost and won same number of games vs PSG, won more games vs Chelsea than we've lost, and I can go on. Not having a set play style and not having tactical knowledge are two vastly different things

Most of this good record against top managers was at the start of his reign when other managers weren't sure about his style of football. You think Ole is amongst the top 100 managers in the world. It's possible i guess but a club of our stature and history should be aiming for the very least a top 10 mmanager if not a top 5. Do you think Ole will ever reach those heights?

 

[anant]

Noted on AOC, and again, we are on the same page in saying the transfers made a big deal. But there is a huge factor by way of the development of the players and tactical ability. And you also need to get transfers spot on on top, which Ole has so far failed to do.

If I'm to look at just the high cost transfers - Maguire, AWB have been successes, Bruno has been a massive success. It's only VDB who hasn't clicked.

If we compare that to Pool, AOC and Keita have been failures, although they've had more massive successes as well.

 

[Bilbo]

Again, no one was 'called out' - it was abundantly clear 'tactically' what Klopp wanted to achieve as he played that football at both Mainz and Dortmund. I specifically said tactically in my post so no, no one was called out. If anything, you possibly misread or misconstrued what I wrote.

Yes, it was great having a laugh at him initially as he looked quite naive at times trying to transfer his playing style from the Bundesliga to the PL. But it was still clear from a tactical perspective how he wanted Liverpool to play. Sure, it took time and resources and we had some doubts. I can't imagine Liverpool fans had many doubts two and a half years into his reign though - which would be a better barometer. There's a reason why he's probably the most talked about rival manager on here - bar Wenger- and it was because people were genuinely worried he would turn Liverpool into a good side. Sure, we all had banter about it but it was obvious people were actually worried.

Come on. From those posts that were put up you clearly didn't see anything at the time. Nothing was misconstrued - they were your own words. Just own it. The denial of it now is worse than any opinions about it would have been back then.

Listen, everyone's got their own opinions about what's going on at United right now. If these last few pages, few months, few years have proven anything its that nobody on the cafe is ever going to be swayed from their opinions at any given time. For me, the fact that this team have lost only 4 of the last 43 league matches (and 2 of those were basically our pre-season) shows that the structure, or foundations, of the team has improved considerably. Partly through management & partly through the natural progression of this team as it evolves.

Whereas some may contend, as I would, that Klopp built Liverpool from the front and needed those 3 defensive signings - arguably the best GK, CB & DM in the world no less - to complete his team, its my belief that Ole is building United from the back and requires his attacking signings to get us challenging. Its really that simple. If we managed to land those signings of equivalent quality - say Haaland & Grealish/Sancho for example - I'll eat my hat if we aren't nudging the mid-90's next season.

 

[VP89]

And I never did that. Not once. This whole blow up started because I called out Robbie solely for being the latest poster (in a long line of them) to claim to have a clear understanding that they could see what Klopp was doing, which surely by extension would mean that they wouldn't be critical of him during his less successful early period.

Lets be honest, the only reason anyone ever claims that is not from adoration of Klopp, but rather from a position of wanting to critique our own manager. Klopp -> top coach that struggled by gets it. Ole -> poor coach that doesn't.

I think my gripe is more to do with how you claim that it's a load of guff to insinuate Klopp had a more clear plan. As your bold bit below suggests no one can include the progression or nuances that he made, even though we did.
It's also a lazy comparison to insinuate that we will make jumps just because they did when they signed 3 players. Because no two transfers are the same. We barely jumped when we bought Maguire for the same amount as they did for VVD.

So yeah you did entertain the comparisons, I think that's why I needed to opine on the matter.

All due respect but that's a load of guff. I see this written on here all the time, naturally with perfect hindsight, as though the people who write it can put together a nice, detailed progression chart that includes all of the little nuances that he changed and how they positively affected the football. Nobody ever has or probably ever will.

What actually happened, in its simplest terms, was that they signed a fantastic goalkeeper and a brilliant centre back and the team immediately took a giant leap forwards. Just like we did when we signed Bruno. Just like we will when/if we improve the other obvious problems in our team.

Ole's already proved tactically that he can hold his own with his peers. The biggest leap forwards that this team can make is by buying players good enough to solve our problems. Watch how much better we immediately look when we do that.

 

[anant]

Most of this good record against top managers was at the start of his reign when other managers weren't sure about his style of football. You think Ole is amongst the top 100 managers in the world. It's possible i guess but a club of our stature and history should be aiming for the very least a top 10 mmanager if not a top 5. Do you think Ole will ever reach those heights?

I said that people on here don't regard him as top 100 manager. Never did I mention how highly I regard him. I believe he's among the middle tier of managers right now - below people like Poch and all, but a trophy win will take him on the same level as him in my view

 

[Bilbo]

Ole has spent about 300 million on 9 different players. He has had 4 transfer windows. If in this current window he signs a couple players for lets say 45 mil each would you say he's been given enough money and time?

As the quality of the team has improved so have expectations and that will continue to be the case.

 

[VP89]

If I'm to look at just the high cost transfers - Maguire, AWB have been successes, Bruno has been a massive success. It's only VDB who hasn't clicked.

If we compare that to Pool, AOC and Keita have been failures, although they've had more massive successes as well.

I disagree with this.

What is success - money well spent? I don't think anyone still see's Maguire as an 80m defender. AWB is a good defender but he's lacking in what Ole wants to implement offensively - we can see this from Ole's vision of fullbacks and the fact that we are linked with the likes of Tripper (or at least were). And yes VDB so far hasn't clicked. I don't think James is money well spent either.

I agree a lot of this comes down to Woodward and the money he puts down, but there are conversations held between how much x player will affect the budget for y and z. So Ole would have known how much we are stumping up for Maguire before signing off.

Bruno sure, massive success. Maguire? Good player but not worth the money. AWB? Flawed in the system Ole is looking for (it seems).

So it's still very much out there.

 

[Desert Eagle]

No he hasn't. He's spent £220m and about half of that figure (if not slightly more) was recouped from sales.

According to transfer market its about 310 million euros which works out to about 260 million pounds. United fans throwing out the net spend argument that used to be ridiculed here for years.

Maguire- 87

AWB- 55

bruno- 55

DVB- 39

Diallo- 21

James- 18

Telles- 15

Ighalo- 12

Pellestri - 8.5

 

[Robbie Boy]

Come on. From those posts that were put up you clearly didn't see anything at the time. Nothing was misconstrued - they were your own words. Just own it. The denial of it now is worse than any opinions about it would have been back then.

Listen, everyone's got their own opinions about what's going on at United right now. If these last few pages, few months, few years have proven anything its that nobody on the cafe is ever going to be swayed from their opinions at any given time. For me, the fact that this team have lost only 4 of the last 43 league matches (and 2 of those were basically our pre-season) shows that the structure, or foundations, of the team has improved considerably. Partly through management & partly through the natural progression of this team as it evolves.

Whereas some may contend, as I would, that Klopp built Liverpool from the front and needed those 3 defensive signings - arguably the best GK, CB & DM in the world no less - to complete his team, its my belief that Ole is building United from the back and requires his attacking signings to get us challenging. Its really that simple. If we managed to land those signings of equivalent quality - say Haaland & Grealish/Sancho for example - I'll eat my hat if we aren't nudging the mid-90's next season.

Tactically we could all see what he was trying to do. Come on you're twisting this mate. Having doubts about whether it could work is fine - but yes tactically it was obvious given that was his style and what he was known for.

Maybe for you, Oles style is abundantly clear but not for me and plenty of others. It's not a major criticism but it is what it is.

 

[Bilbo]

I think my gripe is more to do with how you claim that it's a load of guff to insinuate Klopp had a more clear plan. As your bold bit below suggests no one can include the progression or nuances that he made, even though we did.
It's also a lazy comparison to insinuate that we will make jumps just because they did when they signed 3 players. Because no two transfers are the same. We barely jumped when we bought Maguire for the same amount as they did for VVD.

So yeah you did entertain the comparisons, I think that's why I needed to opine on the matter.

Everything we are saying now though is in perfect hindsight. Its not the same thing at all. If you or anybody else can find a post you made at the time defending Klopp and observing the gradual improvement & potential of the team, then I'll hold my hands up and say well done for that. Nobody ever has. All we ever see, when people look, is the opposite.

 

[anant]

I disagree with this.

What is success - money well spent? I don't think anyone still see's Maguire as an 80m defender. AWB is a good defender but he's lacking in what Ole wants to implement offensively - we can see this from Ole's vision of fullbacks and the fact that we are linked with the likes of Tripper (or at least were). And yes VDB so far hasn't clicked. I don't think James is money well spent either.

I agree a lot of this comes down to Woodward and the money he puts down, but there are conversations held between how much x player will affect the budget for y and z. So Ole would have known how much we are stumping up for Maguire before signing off.

Bruno sure, massive success. Maguire? Good player but not worth the money. AWB? Flawed in the system Ole is looking for (it seems).

So it's still very much out there.

Come on. Better to spend 10m more on a quality player like Maguire than waste another 35m on an average defender. AWB has been a great signing. Defensively he's the best FB in the world. Going forward, he's improved quite a bit and I feel he will end up provide good quality offensively in another year or two.

James was a 15m punt. Not a world beater, but definitely has some use. If we're talking about the cheaper players, one can always say players like Shaqiri, Tsimikas, Minamino have been failures. But anyways, don't see this going anywhere, so will leave it here

 

[Bilbo]

Tactically we could all see what he was trying to do. Come on you're twisting this mate. Having doubts about whether it could work is fine - but yes tactically it was obvious given that was his style and what he was known for.

Maybe for you, Oles style is abundantly clear but not for me and plenty of others. It's not a major criticism but it is what it is.

Prove it. All the evidence provided is massively to the contrary. You were an active poster here at the time, so surely if it was that clear you'd have written something about it at the time.

 

[Desert Eagle]

As the quality of the team has improved so have expectations and that will continue to be the case.

Sure

I said that people on here don't regard him as top 100 manager. Never did I mention how highly I regard him. I believe he's among the middle tier of managers right now - below people like Poch and all, but a trophy win will take him on the same level as him in my view

I don't think Ole is not among top 98 managers. This is what you said, fair to assume you think he's in the top 100 even though your double negative makes it confusing. You didn't really answer my question though. Do you think Ole will ever reach top ten level?

 

[VP89]

Everything we are saying now though is in perfect hindsight. Its not the same thing at all. If you or anybody else can find a post you made at the time defending Klopp and observing the gradual improvement & potential of the team, then I'll hold my hands up and say well done for that. Nobody ever has. All we ever see, when people look, is the opposite.

It's not in perfect hinsight, what sort of a bizzare point is this? I showed articles that explained his development. I barely ever posted in the Klopp thread, so just because I didn't type out any words, I must not have thought it? feck sake this is such bent logic, it's just too much now.