Solskjaer's contract

[Bilbo]

Interestingly enough we've only conceded the first goal in 2 of the last 14 games

 

[Bilbo]

Fans need to realise that whoever the manager is, you're going to at times disagree with subs and in game tactics.

This doesn't mean the manager is wrong or has poor decision making.

Obviously there's a line, if the manager is constantly baffling the majority of fans and results are consistently poor, then yeah draw conclusions.

But there's definitely a trend amongst fans of believing a manager should at all times align with their own stance. Anything less therefore means a manager is inept.

You'll always disagree with a manager, no matter who it is. Even SAF. I'm just saying keep that in mind when deciding if a manger is upto the job.

Remember all the ocaaaions Ole made a change you wouldn't have and it turned out well.

Exactly. This has only become a thing due to the high volume of posters on here looking for things to be critical of. It's all a bit Chinese whispers

 

[Pickle85]

Very true on statistics. Luck definitely played it's part. I read somewhere the reason for our drop off since January has basically been the inability to keep that statistical anomaly going with regards to continually going behind then getting back into matches. It was never sustainable and what we have seen recently is just normal service resume, but with the continued going behind occasionally.

This is what it's felt like to me too...there was always going to be a time where we gave ourselves too steep of a mountain to climb.

I don't think it's about "being a pro" argument he's bringing up here. It's about the fact that fans are mostly wrong but we just don't realize it because we have 10 different view points, 1 of which might be correct. Hell, look at matchday threads. We start moaning the second lineups are out, but more often than not, it has worked out.

And for your 2nd point, that we go behind more often than not - We've gone behind 12 times this season. Only CIty, Chelsea and Spurs have gone behind fewer times.

City in the 5 times they've gone behind, they've never won the game, drew twice and lost thrice. Chelsea in the 10 games they've gone behind, they've won twice, drew twice and lost others. Spurs gone behind 11 times, won twice lost 9 times.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.in/premier-league/punktenachrueckstand/wettbewerb/GB1

It's easy to say "But we shouldn't have gone behind to X", but teams go behind to a poorer side more often than most people realize. Games aren't won on paper with the better side winning 3-0 every time. Quite often, the underdog does take the lead, and quite often they manage to hold on to the lead as well

Can't argue with much here...that stat about going behind the fourth fewest times is an interesting one as it's felt like an every week thing. I guess there are certain decisions he's made , coupled with often leaving subs pretty late (or making odd ones/three or four at once) that I've had issues with. Impossible to say how things may have planned out differently though, of course, and hindsight is always 20/20.

I'm not trying to be patronising with the 'bloke on armchair' comment. Im simply saying that criticising substitutions comes down to him not doing what you think he should be doing, and your opinion is beyond reproach because we'll never know what would have happened if he'd made different choices, hence why the points won or lost statistics is a fair barometer.

There have been moments when I thought 'we could do with X on here' but it's a fleeting thought. The volume of criticism on here about in-game management is well over the top. The Fred vs PSG issue aside, there isn't really anything that's worthy of any scrutiny.

Fair enough, point taken. As above, I do have some issues with subs that go beyond the Fred Vs PSG example (though that was particularly egregious) and as you say, we seem to have fallen out of the habit of conceding first by and large (long may that last!)

 

[welshwingwizard]

Ole has done very little "wrong" and though he may not always have got things "right" he has constantly strove to improve the team and the players. Wheras Moyes, LVG and Jose were simply doing a job, and most of the time thats how it looked, Ive always had the impression that Ole sees being manager of Manchester United as a priviledge and something that has to be desired. Ole may not in the final analysis "get it right" ala SAF but he will most certainly do his utmost to achieve this and what ever happens, in football terms he'll leave Manchester United a far better outfit than when he started his managerial reign.

I've read things like this a couple of times and don't get it. Do people really think professional managers don't all hugely care. Maybe they don't love the club but does that matter? Their professional pride and desire to win will always override anything. Looking at Mourinho it was his downfall because things became toxic in his desire to win (and thus do well for the club).

The line of argument also has a big weakness in that we are comparing someone in a job currently (and supposedly in part of their process) with those at their lowest points in our memory. If next year everything falls apart for Ole (as it could have done last season if Bruno hadn't come in) then no one can possibly say we are in a better place than Mourinho just after we had won the Europa and come second in league with high points total. Similarly, to when we got 4th with LVG and we had the summer of positivity with his drunk toasting. In both those occasions I felt more progress from those managers than where we are currently with Ole. He end of their time has just diminished how we viewed them. Especially with mourinho.

I am also not sure we will look back on the transfers and see a huge difference to the amount wasted previously.

 

[Marwood]

Exactly. This has only become a thing due to the high volume of posters on here looking for things to be critical of. It's all a bit Chinese whispers

Yeah agree.

I'd also add that yes there are times Ole has made mistakes. Again though this doesn't mean he's a bad manager. It means he's a human and like every manager in history has made a mistake.

Some fans seem to demand perfection. Anything less and the guy needs sacking.

 

[RUCK4444]

OGS is a fascinating case study for all sports and business to reflect on.

United are a better team since Ole came in. Better players. Young talent coming up. Future looks pretty decent. Yet he is still viewed as lacking in quality. So what is missing? Ah yes the infamous “philosophy”. The big words. The demeanour on the side lines. Maybe the slick coat too?

This case just shows how much people need to be made to “feel” something from their leaders no matter if it is without substance and has little effect on improving them. It explains the rise in “philosophy” managers who talk a big game about where they want to go and how they want to play. At the end of the day the proof is in the pudding. Ole has done nothing but improve United and you would be mad to replace him now. He has earned a shot to continue improve this team.

This. A good example of this is when a leader is voted into power, the overwhelming majority will tend to vote for the leader who is better looking.

The voters are swayed in the following order
Beauty/Looks
Trustworthiness
Policy

People are fickle in the extreme.

 

[Beachryan]

My worry with Ole is simple: he's gotten good results, but doesn't play great football. Normally that catches up to a team.

Success with OGS would feel miles better than any random coach brought in, so of course I want it to work out. And it might. But I see no reason to judge that now.

By the end of the season if we easily hold onto second and actually win a semi final, great, progress. If we continue to wet the bed in the league and fall out of the top 4, its a very different picture of his performance. So let's wait til then. I can see no downside whatsoever.

 

[anant]

My worry with Ole is simple: he's gotten good results, but doesn't play great football. Normally that catches up to a team.

Success with OGS would feel miles better than any random coach brought in, so of course I want it to work out. And it might. But I see no reason to judge that now.

By the end of the season if we easily hold onto second and actually win a semi final, great, progress. If we continue to wet the bed in the league and fall out of the top 4, its a very different picture of his performance. So let's wait til then. I can see no downside whatsoever.

I've heard the "great football" argument quite often, but I'm not sure what people call great football.

LVG's 2nd season football and Mou's football 2nd season onwards definitely wasn't great. But surely a side that has scored 2nd most goals, scored 3+ goals in PL more than any other team can't be accused of not playing good football?

 

[anant]

Can't argue with much here...that stat about going behind the fourth fewest times is an interesting one as it's felt like an every week thing. I guess there are certain decisions he's made , coupled with often leaving subs pretty late (or making odd ones/three or four at once) that I've had issues with. Impossible to say how things may have planned out differently though, of course, and hindsight is always 20/20.

That's because some of these things have been repeated so often that they just feel as if they're the truth.

As far as the substitution point is concerned, compared to other top managers in PL, Ole's subs have come in sooner when we're behind, and apart from our 2nd and 3rd sub when our scores are level, even that point is not backed by numbers

https://kwestthoughts.substack.com/...mpaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=twitter

 

[Leftback99]

So wait, you're saying he doesn't? For the record, yes, I think he has been lucky at times (which manager hasn't) but that doesn't explain away that stat that you so cavalierly misuse. The fact that we've gone behind early in a significant number of games that we should be winning comfortably, only for us to get our shit together late on in them to (surprise) come back and win is not a testament to Ole's in-game management. It's a testament to the fact that our team is often better than the team that we've been losing to and that we shouldn't have fallen behind in the first place. To use an analogy: say I run a 1500 m race against an eighty four year old with emphysema and fall behind over the first four hundred metres because I'm day dreaming and don't hear the starting pistol. Say I then finally realise that my geriatric opponent has left the blocks and I start running, finally overtaking them in the last hundred metres. Does that mean I've got excellent in-race management or does it mean that I should have paid more attention to the sound of the pistol?

You can make statistics say a lot of things but I think you'll find the majority of folks on the caf agree that Ole's in game management leaves something to be desired. His subs are often late and, when they come, are occasionally baffling. He's left players on the pitch that he'd have been better off resting and sometimes when we've been in need of a little attacking momentum has not been as positive as he should have. Again, I don't want to paint too negative a picture of his tenure because I think there have been some positives but I also think we can call out certain aspects of his coaching that need work.

In other words he can't win. If we lose/draw it's down to Solskjaer's poor in game management, if we win it's because we have a better team.

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[Bilbo]

That's because some of these things have been repeated so often that they just feel as if they're the truth.

As far as the substitution point is concerned, compared to other top managers in PL, Ole's subs have come in sooner when we're behind, and apart from our 2nd and 3rd sub when our scores are level, even that point is not backed by numbers

https://kwestthoughts.substack.com/...mpaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=twitter

Theres a great thread in my head called Debunking Redcafe Myths, but I can't be arsed to write it

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

OGS is a fascinating case study for all sports and business to reflect on.

United are a better team since Ole came in. Better players. Young talent coming up. Future looks pretty decent. Yet he is still viewed as lacking in quality. So what is missing? Ah yes the infamous “philosophy”. The big words. The demeanour on the side lines. Maybe the slick coat too?

This case just shows how much people need to be made to “feel” something from their leaders no matter if it is without substance and has little effect on improving them. It explains the rise in “philosophy” managers who talk a big game about where they want to go and how they want to play. At the end of the day the proof is in the pudding. Ole has done nothing but improve United and you would be mad to replace him now. He has earned a shot to continue improve this team.

That’s nonsense to be fair. You ”feel” he is improving and that the future is bright, there’s absolutely zero substance there, it’s just a feeling you have.

As for ”young talent coming up”, what does all this mean in reality? How much of the young talent coming up is he even responsible for?

We ripped Liverpool to bits for years for permanently thinking on these terms, ”next year la’”.

Currently in his second full season he’s having a similar season to Leicester City and is 14-17 points behind the leaders.

That’s why he’s still questioned, and no philosophy is changing that. I mean, feck me how can you even think this when that’s exactly what LVG banged on about non-stop yet that didn’t help him from the media and fans doubting him and wanting him out as quick as humanly fecking possible.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Theres a great thread in my head called Debunking Redcafe Myths, but I can't be arsed to write it

I can see the trajectory that would take...

 

[Beachryan]

I've heard the "great football" argument quite often, but I'm not sure what people call great football.

LVG's 2nd season football and Mou's football 2nd season onwards definitely wasn't great. But surely a side that has scored 2nd most goals, scored 3+ goals in PL more than any other team can't be accused of not playing good football?

We shouldn't compare ourselves to, well, our worse selves. We should be looking at Bayern, City, PSG - those are the teams we should be aspiring to play like. We have one of the highest wage bills in world football. That should be the barometer.

Even though we've obviously had better results this season, I can think of numerous teams in the premier league alone that play 'better' football than us. I realise how that sounds, but we'll see if we can maintain our points to performance ratio.

 

[anant]

Theres a great thread in my head called Debunking Redcafe Myths, but I can't be arsed to write it

It's like a poster posted some views on the team, based on one game - that view got stuck with a lot of posters and now we're having completely baseless myths about the team backed by neither data nor a considerably high sample size.

We shouldn't compare ourselves to, well, our worse selves. We should be looking at Bayern, City, PSG - those are the teams we should be aspiring to play like. We have one of the highest wage bills in world football. That should be the barometer.

Even though we've obviously had better results this season, I can think of numerous teams in the premier league alone that play 'better' football than us. I realise how that sounds, but we'll see if we can maintain our points to performance ratio.

Comparing to PSG, City and Bayern would make sense when you have a team as good as them, depth as good as them and even a footballing structure (and I mean not just manager and coaching staff but DoF, owners, everything) as good as them. The side that we're having right now was built by 4/5 different managers each of them with a play style very different from their predecessors.

As far as comparing to other PL teams is concerned, you can try that stuff off when fans don't expect you to win every week and pragmatism can be thrown out of the window like Leeds and Southampton, but while I believe the side can play better football, I don't think comparing our style to those sides is even a fair thing

 

[cyberman]

Really surprised its only 2 years today when Ole took over. You would think he was in charge for 10 if you read posts on here

 

[NasirTimothy]

From an outsider’s perspective, the problem with Ole is this (just my opinion):

IMO, if you’re going to choose a manager for one of the biggest and most storied clubs in the world, they need to be either

a) Highly decorated and generally successful or;

b) Have proved they can punch significantly above their weight at a high level with a smaller club (eg. Fergie with Aberdeen, Klopp with BD)

There’s a third category that clubs sometimes opt for, which is;

c) Choose a guy who was a club legend as a player with little to no managerial experience and hope his knowledge of the inner workings of the club bears fruit

Sometimes this works spectacularly (Pep with Barca, Zidane with Madrid; but it helps if you have a collection of truly world class players at your disposal) and sometimes it doesn’t (Lampard, Pirlo etc.).

OGS is nominally a part of this third category, but in truth he’s not, because he’s far from being a novice.

Choosing the inexperienced club legend is usually a leap of faith, because you have no idea how they will fare with top level management. But Ole was a manager for nearly 10 years before taking over at United, and his record was distinctly average (a couple of trophies in the 22nd ranked European league his only achievements).

Basically, I can’t think why a guy who has been average would suddenly become great at a club where the pressure is 50 times greater and the level that much higher.

He’s had some money to spend and not had to let too many of his assets go, so he’s going to do alright (I’m not saying he’s terrible). But to get Man United to where they want to be (multiple league titles and champions league wins)? I personally don’t see it.

Just my thoughts, please don’t be mad Ole fans....

 

[Bilbo]

From an outsider’s perspective, the problem with Ole is this (just my opinion):

IMO, if you’re going to choose a manager for one of the biggest and most storied clubs in the world, they need to be either

a) Highly decorated and generally successful or;

b) Have proved they can punch significantly above their weight at a high level with a smaller club (eg. Fergie with Aberdeen, Klopp with BD)

There’s a third category that clubs sometimes opt for, which is;

c) Choose a guy who was a club legend as a player with little to no managerial experience and hope his knowledge of the inner workings of the club bears fruit

Sometimes this works spectacularly (Pep with Barca, Zidane with Madrid; but it helps if you have a collection of truly world class players at your disposal) and sometimes it doesn’t (Lampard, Pirlo etc.).

OGS is nominally a part of this third category, but in truth he’s not, because he’s far from being a novice.

Choosing the inexperienced club legend is usually a leap of faith, because you have no idea how they will fare with top level management. But Ole was a manager for nearly 10 years before taking over at United, and his record was distinctly average (a couple of trophies in the 22nd ranked European league his only achievements).

Basically, I can’t think why a guy who has been average would suddenly become great at a club where the pressure is 50 times greater and the level that much higher.

He’s had some money to spend and not had to let too many of his assets go, so he’s going to do alright (I’m not saying he’s terrible). But to get Man United to where they want to be (multiple league titles and champions league wins)? I personally don’t see it.

Just my thoughts, please don’t be mad Ole fans....

It only really matters what he does while he's here. The time for analysing or even caring at all about what he did prior to this has long since come and gone. Its not relevant any more.

The guy can't really win can he? Wasn't fancied to finish top 4 last season, but managed it. Not backed to do any better than 4th this time, currently 2nd. He keeps hitting or surpassing reasonable targets and it's never enough. It's nonsense really.

 

[VP89]

It only really matters what he does while he's here. The time for analysing or even caring at all about what he did prior to this has long since come and gone. Its not relevant any more.

The guy can't really win can he? Wasn't fancied to finish top 4 last season, but managed it. Not backed to do any better than 4th this time, currently 2nd. He keeps hitting or surpassing reasonable targets and it's never enough. It's nonsense really.

Of course it's relevant. A manager brings a certain pedigree to a club, whether it's by way of tactical prowess (e.g. Pep when he took on Barcelona) or by way of track record (e.g. SAF with Aberdeen, or Tuchel with Dortmund, Klopp with Dortmund, etc.).

Ole has done well enough to keep his job so far but there's nothing to insinuate that he's a long term answer - that's what the poster was suggesting.

Also regarding target, a reasonable target was actually not letting City or Liverpool run away with the league in the manner it was done last season. As Neville said, a good second not a bad second. I'd rather we were 4th and within 7-10 points of the league leaders than finish 2nd and be 15 points off the league leaders.

I also expect a cup final now that he crashed out of the CL groups. The FA Cup exit is disappointing but I was actually pleased with the way we dispatched of difficult teams in that run, so it's not a major concern. But all in all, these are not unreasonable expectations for a manager 2.5 years in charge of Manchester United. He's not "surpassing" any target right now, so I think we need to keep the hype in check here.

 

[Bilbo]

Of course it's relevant. A manager brings a certain pedigree to a club, whether it's by way of tactical prowess (e.g. Pep when he took on Barcelona) or by way of track record (e.g. SAF with Aberdeen, or Tuchel with Dortmund, Klopp with Dortmund, etc.).

Ole has done well enough to keep his job so far but there's nothing to insinuate that he's a long term answer - that's what the poster was suggesting.

Also regarding target, a reasonable target was actually not letting City or Liverpool run away with the league in the manner it was done last season. As Neville said, a good second not a bad second. I'd rather we were 4th and within 7-10 points of the league leaders than finish 2nd and be 15 points off the league leaders.

I also expect a cup final now that he crashed out of the CL groups. The FA Cup exit is disappointing but I was actually pleased with the way we dispatched of difficult teams in that run, so it's not a major concern. But all in all, these are not unreasonable expectations for a manager 2.5 years in charge of Manchester United. He's not "surpassing" any target right now, so I think we need to keep the hype in check here.

There's plenty to suggest that he might be a long term solution, but that's the whole thing with this divide. People either see it that way or they don't.

 

[VP89]

There's plenty to suggest that he might be a long term solution, but that's the whole thing with this divide. People either see it that way or they don't.

No there isn't, because he hasn't brought any pedigree, nor has he over performed on balance. Patterns of play are also still very inconsistent 2.5 years in and there is a slightly annoying frequency of poor in-game management at this level.

Hes not failing by any means but he's not flourishing either. He won't get by on just top 4 achievements next year. In fact we said this last year too, so it's do or die coming up and I'd say his longevity whilst not in risk at this stage, is still very much in the balance.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Of course it's relevant. A manager brings a certain pedigree to a club, whether it's by way of tactical prowess (e.g. Pep when he took on Barcelona) or by way of track record (e.g. SAF with Aberdeen, or Tuchel with Dortmund, Klopp with Dortmund, etc.).

Ole has done well enough to keep his job so far but there's nothing to insinuate that he's a long term answer - that's what the poster was suggesting.

Also regarding target, a reasonable target was actually not letting City or Liverpool run away with the league in the manner it was done last season. As Neville said, a good second not a bad second. I'd rather we were 4th and within 7-10 points of the league leaders than finish 2nd and be 15 points off the league leaders.

I also expect a cup final now that he crashed out of the CL groups. The FA Cup exit is disappointing but I was actually pleased with the way we dispatched of difficult teams in that run, so it's not a major concern. But all in all, these are not unreasonable expectations for a manager 2.5 years in charge of Manchester United. He's not "surpassing" any target right now, so I think we need to keep the hype in check here.

Yes, that’s my point. Ole will prove the doubters wrong when he wins the league and/or the champions league, not before. Obviously a lesser cup would be a good start, but that’s not the ultimate goal. What we’ve seen so far is inconsistency from his team, periods of success followed by periods of mediocrity. You can’t win big like that.

Also, his tactical grasp of the game and general philosophy and stylistic MO have been questioned. He hasn’t done anything in the past (pre United) that suggests he’ll definitely get it right at the elite level in the future. I’m not trying to be harsh or troll, it’s just my genuine observation

People can defend him as much as they like, but the requirements for a club like this are really very straightforward. It’s a ruthless business, especially in the superclub era.

 

[VP89]

Yes, that’s my point. Ole will prove the doubters wrong when he wins the league and/or the champions league, not before. Obviously a lesser cup would be a good start, but that’s not the ultimate goal. What we’ve seen so far is inconsistency from his team, periods of success followed by periods of mediocrity. You can’t win big like that.

Also, his tactical grasp of the game and general philosophy and stylistic MO have been questioned. He hasn’t done anything in the past (pre United) that suggests he’ll definitely get it right at the elite level in the future. I’m not trying to be harsh or troll, it’s just my genuine observation

People can defend him as much as they like, but the requirements for a club like this are really very straightforward. It’s a ruthless business, especially in the superclub era.

Exactly.

I'm not saying Ole hasn't done any good, or that his impact has been negative. It's the opposite, I think he was the right man to stabilize the ship and create a dressing room ethos that is more aligned to the club. However to get to the level we require he now has to either 1) have a very well drilled coaching staff capable of handing the tactical side of things or 2) start drilling the team himself in how he wants us to play better, for example integrate an actual pressing system, or a way to play out from the back, etc.

Can he do that? Maybe, but those strongly in favour of something can only say "he's building something" for so long. If it gets to year 3 and he still looks miles off the top, that's it. There's no saving him - so it's crunch stage.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Really surprised its only 2 years today when Ole took over. You would think he was in charge for 10 if you read posts on here

Serious question: Why sometimes is it ok to only mention when he took over permanently and other times, to include his caretaker spell? Personally, I judge his tenure from the moment he took on the caretaker role. So, this December, he'll be 3 years in the job.

 

[SirReginald]

There's plenty to suggest that he might be a long term solution, but that's the whole thing with this divide. People either see it that way or they don't.

The way your fan base is split and how fans of other teams look at Manchester United right now, he is doing a reasonably unspectacular job and unless something dramatic happens it just doesn’t feel like he will get you competing with Europe’s elite clubs.

Obviously there’s a chance it may happen but there’s been nothing to suggest he won’t be considered any more than the man who restructured your playing squad (for someone else to reap the benefits and take the plaudits).

 

[Robbie Boy]

Yes, that’s my point. Ole will prove the doubters wrong when he wins the league and/or the champions league, not before. Obviously a lesser cup would be a good start, but that’s not the ultimate goal. What we’ve seen so far is inconsistency from his team, periods of success followed by periods of mediocrity. You can’t win big like that.

Also, his tactical grasp of the game and general philosophy and stylistic MO have been questioned. He hasn’t done anything in the past (pre United) that suggests he’ll definitely get it right at the elite level in the future. I’m not trying to be harsh or troll, it’s just my genuine observation

People can defend him as much as they like, but the requirements for a club like this are really very straightforward. It’s a ruthless business, especially in the superclub era.

Agreed.

 

[Eplel]

People can defend him as much as they like, but the requirements for a club like this are really very straightforward. It’s a ruthless business, especially in the superclub era.

What most people don't realise is how important fast progress is at our stage. If we don't show clear and fast progress we always run the risk of losing our best players to more competitive and more ambitious teams, as well as lose out on transfer targets.

Some fans may be happy to challenge for the title in 4 years time, but why would Bruno, Rashford or our other players be happy with it?

 

[Bilbo]

No there isn't, because he hasn't brought any pedigree, nor has he over performed on balance.
Hes not failing by any means but he's not flourishing either. He won't get by on just top 4 achievements next year. In fact we said this last year too, so it's do or die coming up and I'd say his longevity whilst not in risk at this stage, is still very much in the balance.

Depends on what your interpretation was of what the plan really was. My opinion at the end of last season was that we were a year ahead of schedule, but of course that is in regards to my own interpretation of the plan. To me it was always broadly along the lines of, and in its simplest terms, 'having a team capable of competing with or ideally being better than City and Liverpool in the next 3 to 4 seasons'.

I didn't expect us to get top four last year, but we did. The fact that we look like consolidating that again this season, as well as finishing ahead of Liverpool and also a Chelsea that heavily invested in their team, is again ahead of the plan. I agree that we need a trophy this season or next, but broadly when you look at what I was hoping for you can see why I'm comfortable with the situation.

You may be one of those guys who doesn't believe in a plan, or you may think we are behind or at best on par with it, that's fine. Up to you. To me the fact that the club look like extending his stay suggests that my interpretation of that plan is somewhere close to what the club are also feeling, but I obviously don't know that for sure.

 

[cyberman]

Serious question: Why sometimes is it ok to only mention when he took over permanently and other times, to include his caretaker spell? Personally, I judge his tenure from the moment he took on the caretaker role. So, this December, he'll be 3 years in the job.

I think the caretaker spell can be classified as Ole putting out fires, it gives a reasonable bookend so he can be fairly judged imo.
Its not as if its cheating the point, that caretaker period was probably his best spell here as manager.

 

[Bilbo]

Some fans may be happy to challenge for the title in 4 years time, but why would Bruno, Rashford or our other players be happy with it?

Probably because they are the type of player/person that realises that they play just as big a part in our chances of success as anyone else does. The types of players we've been trying to add, and the type that we havent had nearly enough of in recent years

 

[AgentSmith]

Serious question: Why sometimes is it ok to only mention when he took over permanently and other times, to include his caretaker spell? Personally, I judge his tenure from the moment he took on the caretaker role. So, this December, he'll be 3 years in the job.

Yeah it’s an odd one. I think it depends what is being discussed.

In terms of trophies and success it’s extremely unfair to judge the current season as Ole’s 3rd because he joined 1/2 way through his ‘first’ season when we were in dire straits

But in terms of progression with the players and the establishment of a clear style of football it’s absolutely fair to include that first season. Ole’s approaching 28 months with these players and that’s a more than a reasonable enough timeframe to make judgements on the progress of the team and his progress as a manager imo.

 

[Robbie Boy]

My huge issue with those that back him unequivocally is this: Most of the premise for the backing is that he's improved us and is building something. He has improved a-lot of things and stabilised us after the toxic Jose era. But I do often feel this progress is overblown by some, and a-lot of it is personal opinion, as the stats can be used negatively or positively.

The biggest issue though is the idea that he's building something and needs time - often Klopp will be used as a metric for this particular notion. My problem is that it was far more evident exactly what Klopp wanted to do with Liverpool tactically, from his early days in the job. With Ole, it's nowhere near as evident. Furthermore, while we slowly progess, other clubs will naturally progress in that period. I can envisage the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool being much better teams come next season. I just fear that, while the notion of a longterm rebuild is admirable, it's slightly in the pipe dream realm. I just can't see us winning anything sufficient with Ole, but he has done many positive things during his tenure.

He deserves to start here as manager next season, but the cotton wool that some wrap him in, will have to be removed.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Yeah it’s an odd one. I think it depends what is being discussed.

In terms of trophies and success it’s extremely unfair to judge the current season as Ole’s 3rd because he joined 1/2 way through his ‘first’ season when we were in dire straits

But in terms of progression with the players and the establishment of a clear style of football it’s absolutely fair to include that first season. Ole’s approaching 28 months with these players and that’s a more than a reasonable enough timeframe to make judgements on the progress of the team and his progress as a manager imo.

Agree with the above.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I think the caretaker spell can be classified as Ole putting out fires, it gives a reasonable bookend so he can be fairly judged imo.
Its not as if its cheating the point, that caretaker period was probably his best spell here as manager.

It was a genuine question. Personally, for me he's our manager 3 years come this December.

 

[VP89]

Depends on what your interpretation was of what the plan really was. My opinion at the end of last season was that we were a year ahead of schedule, but of course that is in regards to my own interpretation of the plan. To me it was always broadly along the lines of, and in its simplest terms, 'having a team capable of competing with or ideally being better than City and Liverpool in the next 3 to 4 seasons'.

Champions League qualification is the bare minimum expectation for a Manchester United manager - that's always been the case. I'm not necessarily going by your expectation but more the club level expectation and that of general fans here - especially when you consider Ole had 6 months prior to know his squad, implement his system, and have a full summer addressing some targets. If it's clear managers aren't getting CL qualification, history shows they get the sack.
There is also a lot to suggest Ole might have gotten sacked if we didn't get top 4 last year, it was muted on Athletic affiliated podcasts, so with that in mind + the fact that Moyes, Jose, LVG all got sacked after it looked like top 4 was out of reach, I think yeah - your'e out if you don't get CL qualification.

I didn't expect us to get top four last year, but we did. The fact that we look like consolidating that again this season, as well as finishing ahead of Liverpool and also a Chelsea that heavily invested in their team, is again ahead of the plan. I agree that we need a trophy this season or next, but broadly when you look at what I was hoping for you can see why I'm comfortable with the situation.

We had a squad more than capable of a top 4 finish, so I'm not sure why you wouldn't have expected it. But anyway, after reaching the minimum expectation last season I agree he earned time.

This season you can talk about Liverpool and Chelsea but us being over Liverpool is more a testament to how Liverpool have imploded more than anything else. Regarding Chelsea, we were fortunate to have Lampard for half the season because he was atrocious. Ole has certainly done well to be the best of the rest, don't get me wrong. But as I say, he can't just be a top 4 man and has to finish a "good" second this year (as Neville put it). For example if he ends up scrambling for top 4 again (because it is tight even if we're 2nd), and it goes down to the wire - that's not progress. And that's not good enough, even if we finish on the right side of top 4.

You may be one of those guys who doesn't believe in a plan, or you may think we are behind or at best on par with it, that's fine. Up to you. To me the fact that the club look like extending his stay suggests that my interpretation of that plan is somewhere close to what the club are also feeling, but I obviously don't know that for sure.

I never said I don't believe in a plan. I just think we will need to start performing with more ambition next year.
If your case is resting on the club actions then we'll have to wait and see. All I can say regarding club decisions is they've broadly been absolutely terrible for a decade now, to the extent where if you're thinking opposite to what the club is doing you are probably going to be right.

We'll have to see how Ole pans out, he has my support on the process. But I definitely doubt his credentials in following it through longer term, so it's not going to be unwavering next season. There has to be a line which is drawn where expectation needs to be met.

 

[Bilbo]

My problem is that it was far more evident exactly what Klopp wanted to do with Liverpool tactically, from his early days in the job.

All due respect but that's a load of guff. I see this written on here all the time, naturally with perfect hindsight, as though the people who write it can put together a nice, detailed progression chart that includes all of the little nuances that he changed and how they positively affected the football. Nobody ever has or probably ever will.

What actually happened, in its simplest terms, was that they signed a fantastic goalkeeper and a brilliant centre back and the team immediately took a giant leap forwards. Just like we did when we signed Bruno. Just like we will when/if we improve the other obvious problems in our team.

Ole's already proved tactically that he can hold his own with his peers. The biggest leap forwards that this team can make is by buying players good enough to solve our problems. Watch how much better we immediately look when we do that.

 

[VP89]

All due respect but that's a load of guff. I see this written on here all the time, naturally with perfect hindsight, as though the people who write it can put together a nice, detailed progression chart that includes all of the little nuances that he changed and how they positively affected the football. Nobody ever has or probably ever will.

What actually happened, in its simplest terms, was that they signed a fantastic goalkeeper and a brilliant centre back and the team immediately took a giant leap forwards. Just like we did when we signed Bruno. Just like we will when/if we improve the other obvious problems in our team.

Ole's already proved tactically that he can hold his own with his peers. The biggest leap forwards that this team can make is by buying players good enough to solve our problems. Watch how much better we immediately look when we do that.

Here you go: https://www.skysports.com/football/...er-jurgen-klopp-into-premier-league-champions

This concept that all he did was buy a goalkeeper and a defender to take a giant leap is quite a load off "guff".

He had a high press style that was seen from pretty much the first game in charge and didn't change it for anything. It's a style that you would have heard of I'm sure known as Gegenpressing . That was what his philosophy was built upon and the whole squad knew it. He then got the pieces of the puzzle to best suit the philosophy he never compromised on and as the players were better he relied less on the pressing, because he can control games way easier. If you want statistics related to this:

Tifo Football measured Liverpool’s pressing numbers in the Premier League using passes per defensive action (PPDA), “the number of opposition passes allowed per proactive defensive act – where the lower the number, the more proactive the defence is in its pressing.”

The findings show the Reds were progressively lowering the intensity of their press as the seasons ticked by, 2016/17 (8.05), 2017/18 (9.45), 2018/19 (10.08) – although every season was higher than the league average each year.

But basically, Klopp was follower of a particular philosophy and style and he knew exactly what pieces he wanted to fit that puzzle.

Ole doesn't do the same, 2.5 years in. He will change from counter attack systems, to sometimes doing a 5 at the back, to going to a diamond and then a 4231 with two holding midfielders. No one really knows what his long term system or philosophy is.

It's attacking he says, it's width, he says. But it's also too vague. He says he likes pressing and our pressing isn't very good. He says he wants us to be one of the fittest and we show some lethargic games. So it's difficult to see what he's trying to build. Ole talks a lot about wanting full backs that are good going forward, but he bought Wan Bissaka for 50m and now we were looking at the likes of Trippier to bring in more guile in that position, so the mind boggles at times.

Look at Tuchel too if you want a recent comparison of how a manager comes in and implements his philosophy immediately. It's the same group under Lampard but they play a very possession focused style of football. It's pretty boring to watch in all honesty but they look a lot more ruthless and a completely different outfit to Lampard's more open style.

 

[Robbie Boy]

All due respect but that's a load of guff. I see this written on here all the time, naturally with perfect hindsight, as though the people who write it can put together a nice, detailed progression chart that includes all of the little nuances that he changed and how they positively affected the football. Nobody ever has or probably ever will.

What actually happened, in its simplest terms, was that they signed a fantastic goalkeeper and a brilliant centre back and the team immediately took a giant leap forwards. Just like we did when we signed Bruno. Just like we will when/if we improve the other obvious problems in our team.

Ole's already proved tactically that he can hold his own with his peers. The biggest leap forwards that this team can make is by buying players good enough to solve our problems. Watch how much better we immediately look when we do that.

@VP89 saved me a detailed reply with his post below.

Try being respectful mate - I didn't insult anyone, so no need to make it personal with hostile words like 'guff'. Believe it or not, people have different opinions to you, so just because 'you've fully backed Ole from day one' or whatever - it doesn't make your views any more valid than anyone else. If you were more flexible with your assessment of Ole, you might enjoy this place a-bit more.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

My huge issue with those that back him unequivocally is this: Most of the premise for the backing is that he's improved us and is building something. He has improved a-lot of things and stabilised us after the toxic Jose era. But I do often feel this progress is overblown by some, and a-lot of it is personal opinion, as the stats can be used negatively or positively.

The biggest issue though is the idea that he's building something and needs time - often Klopp will be used as a metric for this particular notion. My problem is that it was far more evident exactly what Klopp wanted to do with Liverpool tactically, from his early days in the job. With Ole, it's nowhere near as evident. Furthermore, while we slowly progess, other clubs will naturally progress in that period. I can envisage the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool being much better teams come next season. I just fear that, while the notion of a longterm rebuild is admirable, it's slightly in the pipe dream realm. I just can't see us winning anything sufficient with Ole, but he has done many positive things during his tenure.

He deserves to start here as manager next season, but the cotton wool that some wrap him in, will have to be removed.

Depends on who we can get. If we can get a top manager or potentially top manager in, then we have to make that move as Ole is never getting to that level. So I disagree that he deserves to be our manager next year. He should be our manager if we're unable to get someone of the desired level in, considering he's achieving the bare minimum of CL footy. Someone who has enormous achievements with us/in football can possibly say they 'deserve' a top job. I also don't think Arteta 'deserves' to manage arsenal just becuase he won two trophies there.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Depends on who we can get. If we can get a top manager or potentially top manager in, then we have to make that move as Ole is never getting to that level. So I disagree that he deserves to be our manager next year. He should be our manager if we're unable to get someone of the desired level in, considering he's achieving the bare minimum of CL footy. Someone who has enormous achievements with us/in football can possibly say they 'deserve' a top job. I also don't think Arteta 'deserves' to manage arsenal just becuase he won two trophies there.

I think you may have slightly misunderstood my context. By deserve, I meant that he has achieved the bare minimum expectations - i.e. he is safe from the sack. If a scenario arose as you laid out above, then I 100% agree. We should always be aiming as high as we can for both managers and players.