South Africa collapsing

[McGrathsipan]

https://news.sky.com/story/south-af...d-looting-and-more-could-be-deployed-12355785

How is there no thread on this ?

The country appears to be on the brick of total collapse.
My neighbours are from SA and they've shown me the videos of the looting and violence.
Shocking stuff.

Zouma brought the country to the brick of financial ruin and this national emergency is going to damage the country further

 

[VorZakone]

What sparked the unrest? The article says it was the arrest of Zuma but why did that specifically cause the unrest?

 

[Hectic]

What sparked the unrest? The article says it was the arrest of Zuma but why did that specifically cause the unrest?

From the same article:

Lots of South Africans have lost jobs in the pandemic, including during lockdowns, and they were living "very much a hand-to-mouth existence".

Sparks said COVID restrictions "have hurt people here".

More than half of the country's 60 million people are living in poverty, with an unemployment rate of 32%, according to official statistics.

Violence broke out after Zuma began serving a 15-month sentence for contempt of court.

He was jailed for refusing to comply with a court order to testify at a state-backed inquiry investigating corruption claims while he was president from 2009 to 2018.

 

[McGrathsipan]

What sparked the unrest? The article says it was the arrest of Zuma but why did that specifically cause the unrest?

Zouma has been sentenced to jail.
His supporters don't like it.
That's what I've been told.
Then again how looting is supporting him I don't know

 

[The Firestarter]

Zouma has been sentenced to jail.
His supporters don't like it.
That's what I've been told.
Then again how looting is supporting him I don't know

The same way looting was supporting BLM

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

How is there no thread on this ?

I'm sure there are many reasons but lack of column inches in western media are likely to blame. I just noticed the story this morning while browsing the Guardian.

 

[JPRouve]

I forgot to create a thread about it last week. I couldn't find the reason behind the 15 months of jail, it seems like a very short sentence.

 

[McGrathsipan]

I forgot to create a thread about it last week. I couldn't find the reason behind the 15 months of jail, it seems like a very short sentence.

Contempt of court but his real crimes are corruption of highest order.

 

[Traub]

It’s kind of the last roll of the dice for Zuma and his allies. Zuma being put behind bars has shown them that no-one is safe.

This is the closest we’ve come to a split of the ANC.

 

[JPRouve]

Contempt of court but his real crimes are corruption of highest order.

Yeah I saw that later and then tried to find more informations about the schedule of a future trial.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm sure there are many reasons but lack of column inches in western media are likely to blame. I just noticed the story this morning while browsing the Guardian.

It’s mainly getting coverage in relation to the Lions tour. Which says it all really.

 

[OleBoiii]

Wasn't South Africa in a really bad spot long before Covid-19 as well? Poverty, crime and lack of water etc?

 

[adexkola]

Thread title is a bit dramatic.

The same way looting was supporting BLM

Ah it's gonna be one of those threads.

 

[Sir Matt]

Zouma has been sentenced to jail.
His supporters don't like it.
That's what I've been told.
Then again how looting is supporting him I don't know

Looting is very on brand for Jacob Zuma so I could see how they'd think it was supporting him.

 

[Sky1981]

This is bound to happen elsewhere, Zouma is just the catalyst. It'll be some other thing they can find. When people are hungry things are bound to happen. People will find things to vent their frustrations (rave party, demonstration, protest, etc). In Indonesia, the opposition are criticizing the government nonstop for their covid handling (To be fair, they did the best they could circumstances considered) but it won't be long before dissatisfaction turns into mass protest and pray to god above it doesn't snowball from there to looting and riots.

Which is why it's a dangerous time with all the lock downs and economic slowdown, the pandemic is one thing but when it comes to full economic stop the aftermath could be uglier.

 

[SirAnderson]

I feel the role of whatsapp and social media has driven the people into a frenzy more than anything else. Every day (throughout the day) someone is posting another scare post "there will be no pettol for weeks, stock up." "our power will be cut off, stock up on supplies" it's fear mongering all over.

People are stockpiling worse than when the first massive lockdown happened and yet the panic in relation to the actual damage happening in my mind is skewed big time.

If you look at the actually response by the government, they only deloyedd 2500 soldiers, the day AFTER things kicked off, they could have nipped this in the bud much sooner.

In any event, I do not personally think it will continue for very long, it will just change the space to which this battle with continue to be fought.

 

[SirAnderson]

Thread title is a bit dramatic.



Ah it's gonna be one of those threads.

Very dramatic, and exactly as I explained in my post.
We live with violence every day, unreported and terrible daily, but add some looting and mass stealing from the poor taking advantage of the chaos and its collapsing.
Sure our country is definitely not stable, in any way shape or form, and I'm not naive to think it could never end up going the way like Zim, but call it ignorance, i dont see that happening just quite yet.

 

[SirAnderson]

Kurt Zouma on the other hand is doing well for himself.

 

[Tarrou]

the Zuma thing was the spark but the general shittiness of everyones situation is the fuel behind all this, I think

 

[Rektsanwalt]

Whole country always been a mess, right? Situations like Zuma getting jail time are just casus belli. The roots lie far, far deeper and are - judging by my knowledge of history - maybe fixed in a century or so but not in the lifetime of anybody living right now. Most likely even longer as there is no sign of a movement strong enough at the moment.
At the moment, even cops are openly looting, using police cars and wearing official uniforms. Says everything about the current state.

 

[SirAnderson]

Whole country always been a mess, right? Situations like Zuma getting jail time are just casus belli. The roots lie far, far deeper and are - judging by my knowledge of history - maybe fixed in a century or so but not in the lifetime of anybody living right now. Most likely even longer as there is no sign of a movement strong enough at the moment.
At the moment, even cops are openly looting, using police cars and wearing official uniforms. Says everything about the current state.

Yeah let's not go with extreme views. To say "it as always been a mess." is a bit extreme.
For all our shite, we still have beauty in the country and if it was not for the crime that's so bad, and naturally covid recently, our tourism is quite decent, Cape Town seems to be the favorite love word of the average tourist.

I think we pretty resilient as a country and have come through so much to let it ALL go to shite.

That being said, I still would emigrate given the chance, simply for my kids to have a chance at a different kind of life.

 

[villain]

Yeah let's not go with extreme views. To say "it as always been a mess." is a bit extreme.
For all our shite, we still have beauty in the country and if it was not for the crime that's so bad, and naturally covid recently, our tourism is quite decent, Cape Town seems to be the favorite love word of the average tourist.

I think we pretty resilient as a country and have come through so much to let it ALL go to shite.

That being said, I still would emigrate given the chance, simply for my kids to have a chance at a different kind of life.

Your posts have provided some good context to the situation on the ground, thanks for sharing and rising above some of the ignorance posted in here.
I find in situations like this, particularly involving less economically stable countries, western media tends to get overzealous and lack perspective on the way it reports stories.

 

[adexkola]

Very dramatic, and exactly as I explained in my post.
We live with violence every day, unreported and terrible daily, but add some looting and mass stealing from the poor taking advantage of the chaos and its collapsing.
Sure our country is definitely not stable, in any way shape or form, and I'm not naive to think it could never end up going the way like Zim, but call it ignorance, i dont see that happening just quite yet.

In the same boat. Has issues with violence and extreme inequality (hmmm, I wonder where both of those came from) but it's a lovely country with tons of potential.

I do think the ANC is long overdue for a reckoning.

 

[Zlatattack]

I hope they get a grip. I like South Africa, never been but it looks lovely in pictures. Also i think they invented nandos.

 

[Ish]

I hope they get a grip. I like South Africa, never been but it looks lovely in pictures. Also i think they invented nandos.

Yes! Someone got it spot on @RedTiger

In a nutshell as @SirAnderson and @adexkola have said. The divisions within our majority ruling party have now come home to roost, and it's costing the rest of us. Zuma was locked up for contempt of court and that started smaller political protests from his supporters - mainly in Kwazulu Natal (Durban area). This got out of control and presented an opportunity for the looting and general chaos you might have seen on tv/news etc. The chaos have spilled over into Gauteng (Johannesburg) as well, but nowhere else, as far as I recall - not here in Cape Town anyway (nor the ANC, or Zuma have majority control here). There's definitely still an element of "political strategy and ambush" behind some of these actions by Zuma and his loyalists (the ANC is deeply divided and Ramaphosa - the current president has to move his chess pieces slowly to gain any sort of traction or momentum in trying to turn the ANC around).

I think "collapsing" is a bit extreme, as I have no doubt the SANDF (army) will have this under control sooner, rather than later. But really, it's been a long time coming. The ANC is trying to overcome the Zuma rule which was characterized by state capture (Gupta family), corruption, looting - to the magnitude you couldn't comprehend. Even getting international companies like McKinsey, KPMG, T-systems into trouble. This is a watershed moment though. If we can push past this and the ANC can rid itself of Zuma and his loyalists within the party, whose only objective it's been to enrich themselves and their friends and family, we will turn it around. If not....well then, the title of the thread doesn't seem to outrageous, albeit a bit premature. We have to have faith that we have solid institutions in place (and hopefully international interests!) so that the worst case is always mitigated.

But like @SirAnderson, i think everyone is keeping a keen eye on things with the possibility of emigration not seeming like such a terrible idea.

 

[Raoul]

How bad is it exactly ? Need to know if I should reschedule my safari in Kruger later this year.

 

[adexkola]

How bad is it exactly ? Need to know if I should reschedule my safari in Kruger later this year.

You should be fine

 

[Massive Spanner]

So awful to see. Possibly the most beautiful country I've been to and the black population are so friendly and welcoming. But the inequality is also on a whole other level to anywhere I've seen, just horrendous in places. When you fly in to Cape Town you see some of the most god awful townships imaginable only to drive past the wealthy white areas full of beautiful houses and sports cars. It was never really sustainable as a democracy.

 

[Raoul]

So awful to see. Possibly the most beautiful country I've been to and the black population are so friendly and welcoming. But the inequality is also on a whole other level to anywhere I've seen, just horrendous in places. When you fly in to Cape Town you see some of the most god awful townships imaginable only to drive past the wealthy white areas full of beautiful houses and sports cars. It was never really sustainable as a democracy.

It could definitely work as a democracy as long as resources and wealth were distributed to those that need it the most and corruption rooted out.

 

[Adisa]

We Africans need to look at ourselves. These people are not rioting for better transparency, for end to corruption, for a better democracy. They are rioting because a bastard that has stolen hundreds of millions from them is going to jail. The ANC needs to split. They have ridden the freedom fighter tag for too long.
Nigeria is another country about to go tits up. You heard it here first.

 

[MadMike]

We Africans need to look at ourselves. These people are not rioting for better transparency, for end to corruption, for a better democracy. They are rioting because a bastard that has stolen hundreds of millions from them is going to jail. The ANC needs to split. They have ridden the freedom fighter tag for too long.
Nigeria is another country about to go tits up. You heard it here first.

Is Nigeria bad? I'm completely uninformed, what is the root cause of their problems?

 

[Adisa]

Whole country always been a mess, right? Situations like Zuma getting jail time are just casus belli. The roots lie far, far deeper and are - judging by my knowledge of history - maybe fixed in a century or so but not in the lifetime of anybody living right now. Most likely even longer as there is no sign of a movement strong enough at the moment.
At the moment, even cops are openly looting, using police cars and wearing official uniforms. Says everything about the current state.

Youth unemployment in South Africa has been a national emergency for years. You are talking over 50%.

 

[Massive Spanner]

It could definitely work as a democracy as long as resources and wealth were distributed to those that need it the most and corruption rooted out.

Ha, good one!

 

[Adisa]

Is Nigeria bad? I'm completely uninformed, what is the root cause of their problems?

Let me put is like this, South Africa is a child's play compared with the tinderbox that is Nigeria. South Africa's problems are mainly economic. Nigeria is in even deeper shit economically, four times the population of South Africa and close to tribal collapse with the South increasingly agitating for secession. You compound that with what is essentially a sectarian government, then you get the picture. Another thing, elections are coming soon.

 

[Superden]

seen lots of vids being shared by friends and family (many of the businesses especially retail are owned by asian / muslim families) of widespread looting / large scale vigilante (armed) response. lots of death / injury and wanton destruction, including places of worship being attacked as the 'dispute' takes on racial / religious traits.

another sad case of politicians / industrialists using everyday people to do their dirty work with little regards for the consequences at a local level. has always been thus.

 

[The Firestarter]

It could definitely work as a democracy as long as resources and wealth were distributed to those that need it the most and corruption rooted out.

By that logic USA should have collapsed long ago.

 

[Jaxa]

It's heartbreaking seeing these people clearly not looting plasma tv's and electronics like you see in the western world, the majority from that video are nicking bags and cans of food for christ sake, what a horrible situation .

 

[Pogue Mahone]

seen lots of vids being shared by friends and family (many of the businesses especially retail are owned by asian / muslim families) of widespread looting / large scale vigilante (armed) response. lots of death / injury and wanton destruction, including places of worship being attacked as the 'dispute' takes on racial / religious traits.

another sad case of politicians / industrialists using everyday people to do their dirty work with little regards for the consequences at a local level. has always been thus.

What makes you think there’s some sort of strategy/plan behind what’s going on? Is this not just underprivileged people reaching the end of their tethers with pandemic life, then using a sense of injustice to fire each other up on social media and create havoc? Mainly because they’ve nothing left to lose?

We’ve seen the same powder keg going up all over the world many times over the last 18 months.

 

[Rektsanwalt]

Yeah let's not go with extreme views. To say "it as always been a mess." is a bit extreme.
For all our shite, we still have beauty in the country and if it was not for the crime that's so bad, and naturally covid recently, our tourism is quite decent, Cape Town seems to be the favorite love word of the average tourist.

I think we pretty resilient as a country and have come through so much to let it ALL go to shite.

That being said, I still would emigrate given the chance, simply for my kids to have a chance at a different kind of life.

Sorry, that I've offended you, I didn't want it to sound too harsh or arrogant. Apologies! Here's my thought process behind it so you can maybe understand what I meant.
Life expectancy is rank 166 out of 188 with 59,5 years on average compared to 70,8 years worldwide. Rank 114 on the human development index. Around 7 million HIV positive inhabitants. A homicide rate of 36 per 100.000 inhabitants recently aind in 1994 unbelievable 63 per 100.000 inhabitants. Judging by statistics, 40% of the southafrican women are expected to be raped once in their life time. In a study around 30% of the questioned males confirmed once having raped someone. The Gini coefficient, which measures unequality of income, rates southafrica at around 63 in recent years, which is the most extreme there is on earth. General unemployment rate at around 25-30%, youth unemployment rate at around 50%. Racial issues. The list goes on and on.
I looked up those and other numbers and thought that due to the very drastic picture that's painted by them, it's almost certain that there's an extreme and long going process in place, hence I said it's always been a mess. I didn't mean any disrespect, but judging by numbers like these, it's very hard from my point of view to think of this country as not a mess, even if there is incredible beauty and lots of potential.

 

[MadMike]

Let me put is like this, South Africa is a child's play compared with the tinderbox that is Nigeria. South Africa's problems are mainly economic. Nigeria is in even deeper shit economically, four times the population of South Africa and close to tribal collapse with the South increasingly agitating for secession. You compound that with what is essentially a sectarian government, then you get the picture. Another thing, elections are coming soon.

I regret asking now. That sounds quite a potent mix that could lead to sectarian violence or even civil war.