His tactics were spot on to start the game , Wingbacks had so much space and were doing really well . Problem was when the Italians upped the intensity you needed some of the players to stand up and play through them a bit but England dropped far too deep . People like Walker & Trippier showed no composure at all while Kane got completely bullied upfront.
Southgate doesn’t get the credit he deserves
- Thread starter FatTails
- Start date
Still feel England would really benefit from a 433 so we can actually get some control in midfield. Even when we switched to 4231 we regained way more control I hate the way we play 5 at the back it doesn’t suit us
What England need to find between now and and world cup is a quality midfielder.
Hopefully for you lot itl be Bellingham but again he'd be 18/19.
It's the only thing you're missing really.
Hopefully for you lot itl be Bellingham but again he'd be 18/19.
It's the only thing you're missing really.
I think we are at cross purposes mate.
We agree that the tactics were shit and cowardly, but plan A was working. It doesn't matter how many shots we had, because we went into half time 1-0 up and comfortable (they had very few shots if any on target too). My point, which you commented on, is regardless of whether or not plan A worked or was just plain shit, there's no plan B anyway. He subs way too late, then it's like for like, and today especially it was clear he didn't even understand what Mancini changed to put Italy on the front foot.
As for Southgate's tactics being good or wise, that's the whole tournament. He got it completely wrong against Scotland, I'd argue he got away with it against Germany, and he definitely got lucky against Denmark. He's a good man manager but shit tactically, that's why he'll never be able to go back to club football after England. He's better off living off this reputation now imo.
I thought the line up and tactics were good. As shown with the Shaw goal. However. he was far too late with the subs again. Same as against Denmark. Most other teams in the tournament made 5 subs going into extra time because fresh legs are the way to go.
If Sterling isn’t one of his penalty takers, he had to go off for Sancho/Rashford in extra time. He was spent. It seems so basic for me.
If Sterling isn’t one of his penalty takers, he had to go off for Sancho/Rashford in extra time. He was spent. It seems so basic for me.
They aren't a different league technically though, especially not compared to some of the players England left on the bench.
What they were, however, was much fitter as Mancini used his entire squad whereas Southgate only trusted about 13 players and ran them into the ground.
Totally agree, I'm mad at him and I'm not even english.
Even after this he still won't start grealish in the WC QF's. Just watch.
Personally I think he should leave. Nice bloke, did some good things, but in the end he has annoyed me quite a lot with some of the boring defensive football, given some of the talent we have and late substitutions.
Swap the managers and we would have won in normal game time. Southgate pretty much undid all his hard work convincing the nation he’s a competent manager in one game.
One of the best squads in the tournament and didn’t know how to best utilise it. Far too defensive to sit on a 1-0 lead and invite the pressure on from the 2nd minute.Too many favourites who stay on the pitch even when performing poorly.
Rashford & Sancho should have pretty much played all of extra time, that isn’t hindsight, that’s obvious tactics against an aging defence absolutely knackered from 90 mins of football.
One of the best squads in the tournament and didn’t know how to best utilise it. Far too defensive to sit on a 1-0 lead and invite the pressure on from the 2nd minute.Too many favourites who stay on the pitch even when performing poorly.
Rashford & Sancho should have pretty much played all of extra time, that isn’t hindsight, that’s obvious tactics against an aging defence absolutely knackered from 90 mins of football.
Same. It was infuriating watching Mount and Sterling tonight.Totally agree, I'm mad at him and I'm not even english.
I can understand leaving Sterling on as long as possible but hook him at half time of ET at least.
Mount shouldn't have seen past 60 mins
Disagree, his reliance on a handful of players was always going to tire those players out. A bit of rotation and we might have had some energy left.
It's exactly the same as the WC semi against Croatia, except we held out for pens against a team we were never beating in a shootout.
The line up was negative but it nullified Italy. We got an early goal but didn’t hammer home advantage. No idea why Grealish and Sancho are not starting, they would have terrified the Italy defence. Also agree if Sterling was not taking a pen why was he on the pitch?
The Denmark and Germany games in particular really highlight what I feared would happen.
Germany we didn't click into gear until Grealish came on in the second half. We caught Italy a bit cold and typically throughout this tournament England have had a very good first 10-20 mins. For a long period in the final and against Germany nothing was happening with the formation. Unfortunately Southgate unlike against Germany at 0-0 decided too late to bring Jack on (extra time), he would've helped get better control in the second half. Towards the end of the first half Italy were sorting themselves out while we sat off them and giving them time to exchange with each other. It was so clear we needed Grealish on after 55 mins as they had full control by then, of course they score at 67 mins with so much pressure.
Denmark we go a goal down and we quickly create two carbon copy great chances in behind, one after the other to get level, once level we sit off for most of the game and give it go in the last 10 of the 90. We got the penalty, after that we had numerous chances to break but turned back with the ball not confident to finish it off, only Sterling wanted to drive forward and wasted a ton of energy in extra time while no-one backed him up. The theme is just sitting back while drawing or one goal up.
Far too negative, we could've hurt Italy more while they we regrouping in the first half. Our game was crying out for the change we did against Germany with Grealish.
The penalty shootout situation is just a car crash off the back of all that, too little too late, just awful.
I give him credit for what he's done overall but he had the tools and opportunity to do a lot better today. I give the boys in the BBC studio some credit before the match they brought up the need to be a bit more positive to win this final, the negative approach wouldn't be enough I'd say the negative reluctance to change was worse than the road to the final.
Germany we didn't click into gear until Grealish came on in the second half. We caught Italy a bit cold and typically throughout this tournament England have had a very good first 10-20 mins. For a long period in the final and against Germany nothing was happening with the formation. Unfortunately Southgate unlike against Germany at 0-0 decided too late to bring Jack on (extra time), he would've helped get better control in the second half. Towards the end of the first half Italy were sorting themselves out while we sat off them and giving them time to exchange with each other. It was so clear we needed Grealish on after 55 mins as they had full control by then, of course they score at 67 mins with so much pressure.
Denmark we go a goal down and we quickly create two carbon copy great chances in behind, one after the other to get level, once level we sit off for most of the game and give it go in the last 10 of the 90. We got the penalty, after that we had numerous chances to break but turned back with the ball not confident to finish it off, only Sterling wanted to drive forward and wasted a ton of energy in extra time while no-one backed him up. The theme is just sitting back while drawing or one goal up.
Far too negative, we could've hurt Italy more while they we regrouping in the first half. Our game was crying out for the change we did against Germany with Grealish.
The penalty shootout situation is just a car crash off the back of all that, too little too late, just awful.
I give him credit for what he's done overall but he had the tools and opportunity to do a lot better today. I give the boys in the BBC studio some credit before the match they brought up the need to be a bit more positive to win this final, the negative approach wouldn't be enough I'd say the negative reluctance to change was worse than the road to the final.
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We had 1 shot on target in 127 minutes in a final. Sorry, that's not working. Ok we scored, but did we react tactically when they began to make subsitutions? Nope. Were they making chances, yup, they had 19 shots compared to our 6 in the ful 120mins.
Plan A worked to a degree, based on our quick start but it was clear after 20mins that Italy were gradually getting into the game. What we should have done if we really believed in our tactics to hold was to bring in another midfielder to wrestle back control of the midfield in the 2nd half. But instead we just allowed Italy to have wave after wave of pressure which eventually worked. It's not even like it was a surprise goal, the commentators, the pundits, the fans were all saying "Italy are making too many chances and we're dropping too deep". Yet the fecking Manager and his staff just sit on the bench staring into space. Ole does this too, they aren't proactive and don't attempt to wrestle back control, instead they just talk about it until it's too late.
It's like a war general back in the day standing ontop of their hill watching a wave of calvary flank their army and yet sat in reserve is a unit of pikeman ready to repell but the Generals are too busy pointing at the calvary to issue out the orders and bam, the calvary run into their flank and butchers the poor swordsman. (i've been playing a little bit of Total War recently).
Completely agree. He doesn't react to what he's seeing on the pitch. I think Trippier for Saka was his attempt of a positive change but it wasn't what the game needed. Rashford for his pace in behind or Grealish to bring us up the pitch and give their defenders something to worry about.
Ditto for the Rice for Henderson change. It was a bit of a nothing sub which didn't really achieve anything and the other 3 came far too late.
feck Gareth Southgate for putting the tournament in the hands of two players he gave little playing time to. I blame him for not substituting them on earlier & attacking an Italian side who were there for the taking and couldn't handle it when England attacked at speed.
feck the racist cnuts who are abusing the lads. You're not fans, you're a disgrace to the game and to the country.
For all his achievements in this tournament, yet again England go out due to taking the lead and then slacking off. Yes Italy pressed there way back and are a good side, but I firmly believe if Southgate had subbed on more attacking players earlier then it would have been an England win.
Credit to the lads, but once again shite tactics and cowardly football have cost England. The same as it did in the Euros against Portugal, and the World cup against Brazil and Croatia to name just a few in recent memory.
feck the racist cnuts who are abusing the lads. You're not fans, you're a disgrace to the game and to the country.
For all his achievements in this tournament, yet again England go out due to taking the lead and then slacking off. Yes Italy pressed there way back and are a good side, but I firmly believe if Southgate had subbed on more attacking players earlier then it would have been an England win.
Credit to the lads, but once again shite tactics and cowardly football have cost England. The same as it did in the Euros against Portugal, and the World cup against Brazil and Croatia to name just a few in recent memory.
Also he simply does not have the balls to make the major changes when required. He dithers and hopes for the best forgetting his bench options. How many nations in the tournament can you say the bench is better than the first 11?
Again Mancini couldn't win in normal time Vs Austria, Spain or England . Also Italy have a really good group of players , just because we don't see them a lot doesn't mean that they are not good . A lot of their players are very good technically and also have a lot of experience
Well, this did not age well..
I guess the gate had been opened and it all went south.
Badum-tss.
Badum-tss.
Sancho was stripped also. They must have mistaken 'I'm going to sub you on' for 'I'm going to sub you on now'
Yeah, but you've missed what I was saying in context.
Siorac said never mind Plan B, Plan A was the problem. My point was though as shit as Plan A was, it clearly WAS working. We were 1-0 up at half time and dealing with them. Now if you remember on discord I was banging on about the possession and needing to get some half way through that first half, so yes they had the ball and the momentum but we still took care of them at least.
It was when Italy changed that we really struggled. So my point is not that A was so fantastic, it is that it worked up until and point and the problem then is Southgate has no Plan B. I mean you've got to have a plan A anyway right? Whether it works or not? But not to be able to think on your feet and see what the opposition has changed and counter it is criminal. You guys are actually agreeing with me, but just seem to think I'm saying his A plan is ever any good. It's not, as I've said countless times tonight, the warning signs were there all tournament. What I'm saying it he at least seems to set a stall out that plans for the opposition, but has absolutely no in game management to change whenever it is we need to.
I mean saka, henderson, grealish, it's all the same names replacing one another. There's no plan there, it's like for like.
Yeah, I agree with all of this so we probably just disagreed on some phrasing or something.
I think the biggest problem I have with him is that even when his plan is working you feel that his team is capable of much more than simply nullifying the opposition which always seems to be his primary goal. That he's incapable of changing on top of that, once the opponent is no longer nullified, is just icing on the shitcake.
His obsession with Saka is baffling honestly.
Yep 100%.
I've not agreed with a single lineup this tournament. I think we could have easily gone out to the Germans had Muller scored that chance. But he got us to the final, and I respect that. However, tonight is definitely entirely on him. I mean look at the players, Kane, Sterling, Rice, Shaw, Trippier, Maguire...for the first 20-30mins everyone (bar maybe Philips' headless chicken routine) actually showed up and played well. FFS even Kane was getting in amongst them and winning headers! We actually looked like a team and had little nerves.
Then, and you can watch it again, Southgate starts coming out into his area shouting out shit, and we are suddenly no longer pressuring them we are sitting back. I refuse to blame the players for this one, he and he alone fecked this up. He completely failed to see Mancini's change, completely failed to see their growing dominance and perhaps worst of all, when he finally realised, he brought on fecking Saka for Trippier when the likes of Mount was literally doing feck all for the entire second half and most of the first.
Mancini showed him up. The changes he made turned the game and Southgate had no answer. We've seen it many times with Ole, he couldn't read the game and see how Italy were beating us so he froze.
He needs to step aside now. This group of players is too talented to have such a limited manager leading them.
He needs to step aside now. This group of players is too talented to have such a limited manager leading them.
Spot on.
What's worse is the fact he won't be sacked because he got England to a final, yet he lost by making the exact same mistakes as he did during the last world cup against Croatia. Another game England should have won.
It's a nightmare scenario tbh.
Nice guy but like Ole probably not ruthless enough
Too negative tonight. I felt sorry for him
Too negative tonight. I felt sorry for him
That moment was absolutely shocking. Saka is a talent and all but... he was not going to turn the tide and it still screamed 'safety first' at a time when England were in desperate need of some inspiration.
On paper with technical players like Foden and a less extent Mount, 433 looks good. Problem is Foden has barely played in CM for City and Mount only slightly more for Chelsea, so I get why Southgate didn't opt for it.
Would love to see a Bellingham - Phillips duo in the next year or two, with Foden at 10.
Remarkable the similarities between this and the Europa Final. Ole lost us that game with his inept game management in extra time and Southgate lost us this game with his inept management in the second half.
The game is running away from you and you sit there and do nothing.
It’s fecking hard work supporting England and United with these two in charge.
The game is running away from you and you sit there and do nothing.
It’s fecking hard work supporting England and United with these two in charge.
Exactly this. I appreciate this post. The warning signs were there all tournament. This happened in many games. In the Germany game we got it right but if you can’t get a hold of the football get the player on who keeps the ball. Grealish he creates so much space do all his teammates. Instead he waited until it was too late and the midfield had been totally run ragged. Didn’t help that Henderson had a stinker. There is also the factor of the home crowd. The dithering and allowing the environment to become toxic. What should have been a twelfth man became a chain around the neck and dragged England down further.
Southgate is the only person in the world who could watch the abject idiocy of Enrique putting Morata on a crucial penalty and think to himself: That wasn't dumb enough. I'm going to fecking outdo that, and in a final, no less!"
The thing is you have a great team right now, which has probably another 4-6 great years ahead of them. Question is, will you squander those years by leaving Southgate in charge?
Yes. Absolutely no question we will.
Absolutely nothing different than every single England team for the last 20 years or so.
England could easily have won multiple tournaments with the players they have had over the last two decades. Bad tactics, bad management and bad luck has cost them.
I put most of the losses down to negative tactics and trying to preserve leads and trying to play the negative continental style rather than out and out attacking that suits the players we produce and the football our country is famous for.
Hodgson, Allardyce, Southgate.
F.A. needs to finally get a clue in the first place before appointing anyone.
He's useless.
Southgate has feck all competition for his job, yeah he lost and you can analyse to the death how he’s the root cause but he’s going nowhere, if anything his star has risen again.
He will do a similar job in the WC, probably get to the QF’s and then either get out tacticed or overthink himself into a hole.
He will end up in a semi decent club job when he’s done as well, you better hope it ain’t your club.
He will do a similar job in the WC, probably get to the QF’s and then either get out tacticed or overthink himself into a hole.
He will end up in a semi decent club job when he’s done as well, you better hope it ain’t your club.