Film Star Wars Episode IX The Rise of Skywalker [Theories]

[Ubik]

Who had an arc then? You could take the entire movie out of the trilogy and it wouldn’t be any different.



I didn’t see any link between what Luke did and, well, anything really. Do we even know how much time has passed between 8 and 9? How can his actions inspire anything inside young kids when only about a week had passed?

I mean yeah you could, because Rise of Skywalker ignores it as a middle film to appease certain groups of fans (who then ended up not liking it anyway). That doesn't mean nothing happened, just like Empire wasn't a waste of film because it was primarily about character.

Arcs-

Rey - begins by needing a past to define her "place" in the story, and for someone else to be the saviour, ends accepting that she is defined by herself, and is "the last jedi" (great work JJ)
Kylo - begins conflicted and a glorified dogsbody, ends the Supreme Leader who fully embraces the dark side (not so subtly evidenced by his keenness to kill Luke, just great stuff JJ)
Finn - begins by trying to abandon the resistance to save Rey (the only person he cares about), ends up "rebel scum" (until JJ has him scream "REEEEY!" again for most of this film)
Poe - begins thinking that killing people is enough, ends knowing you have to save them as well (honestly can't remember him from the new film other than making eyes at Keri Russell's masked face)
Luke - begins refusing the lightsaber (literally refusing the "call to adventure" from Campbell, ie the premise the entire series is based on - he's refusing to be a hero), ends... holding the lightsaber. Luke's arc, I'd say, is one of the best things a modern blockbuster has done - it takes an icon, breaks him back down into a fallible human, then turns him back into a hero. People obviously disagree on that, but I personally love it. And it got a stonkingly good performance from Hamill.
Even Rose - begins distraught she had to see her sister die a pointless death, ends up managing to save someone she cares about from a pointless death.

You can dislike these character arcs, and can accurately point out they got thrown out by Abrams and Terrio, but saying they don't exist in the film is odd. In fact I've mainly focused my ire at Abrams above but Terrio is pure hack at this point.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

But what would he have achieved by killing himself? Nothing. He might have given them maybe a few seconds to get away but they'd have lost a valuable soldier in the process. Big hero moments are often performed by dumb and stupid idiots who just happen to get lucky because of talent or fortune. See: every plan the Rebels come up with in the original trilogy, Jon Snow in the Battle of the Bastards, Aragorn and his band of men at the end of Return of the King, etc.

To nick an answer from Quora: "Because he is throwing his life away uselessly on a “heroic” gesture with almost no chance of succeeding, when it would better serve the Resistance and those he cares about if he lives to fight another day.

Remember, the *actual experienced combat pilot* in this situation ordered him to break off, and Rose is the mechanic who did the preflight checks on those skimmers. They both know the odds a lot better than Finn does."

Aragorn's actions at the end of Return of the King are patently not dumb or stupid and did succeed. The death of Aragorn, and every man on the battlefield, would still have been worth it.

 

[Revan]

How did it reach people? I don't know, some space radio? The survivors told the story? It's hardly unbelievable, is it? And you're underplaying projecting himself. I'm not a canon expert but as far as I know, no Jedi had ever performed such a feat.

He was a legend in any case, so saving 5 random people didn’t make him a bigger legend.

Both Ren and Rey kind of projected themselves in this movie, in fact they even fought each other being far away from each other (and not needing to die to do so) and somehow teletransporting lightsabers to each other.

Star Wars was cool cause while Jedi/Sith were immensely powerful (both in movies and in old canon), there were also rules. In the new trilogy, they just removed any rule or limitation and did things just that made no sense. Heck, even space traveling became instanteous something that never was before and took considerable time. Similarly, the characters were losers in one scene to only be unbeatable Gods in another scene to return to normies again.

 

[momo83]

Both Rey and Kylo will definitely be remembered more than Poe. Rey in particular will be a hero for the little girls who grew up watching these films. Sometimes I think some people forget those particular fans exist and that they have no reason to pine for the days of yore.

I’m not a little a girl so don’t know. But we’re 3 movies in and neither Rey or Kylo are iconic the actual target audience.
But If in 15-20 years time Rey or Kylo suddenly get viewed as iconic, then I’ll understand

 

[robinamicrowave]

Aragorn's actions at the end of Return of the King are patently not dumb or stupid and did succeed. The death of Aragorn, and every man on the battlefield, would still have been worth it.

They would all be dead had Gollum not tripped over into the lava. Frodo was going to keep the Ring - Aragorn made a mistake by trusting him.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

They would all be dead had Gollum not tripped over into the lava. Frodo was going to keep the Ring - Aragorn made a mistake by trusting him.

They would all be dead if Mordor hadn't opened the Morannon and sent almost all of its troops to crush Gondor's remaining army.

Aragorn's actions are not foolish bravado but a calculated conclusion to maximise the chance of their only hope of victory succeeding. There's no debate that his choice (well, Gandalf's really) was some brainless act of dumb machismo.

As an aside, Gollum wouldn't have been alive to accidentally save the day had mercy not, on several occasions, been shown. Which somewhat echoes the point you're making about Rose in TLJ, I guess, and Finn's subsequent actions in TROS ...although the ROTK actually is the culmination of a coherent plot.

 

[DixieDean]

He was a legend in any case, so saving 5 random people didn’t make him a bigger legend.

Both Ren and Rey kind of projected themselves in this movie, in fact they even fought each other being far away from each other (and not needing to die to do so) and somehow teletransporting lightsabers to each other.

Star Wars was cool cause while Jedi/Sith were immensely powerful (both in movies and in old canon), there were also rules. In the new trilogy, they just removed any rule or limitation and did things just that made no sense. Heck, even space traveling became instanteous something that never was before and took considerable time. Similarly, the characters were losers in one scene to only be unbeatable Gods in another scene to return to normies again.

In current canon, I don't believe he was a legend, though? Rey even calls him a myth. At the very least, the act reinforced the legend.

Apparently, Rey and Kylo had some sort of special force connection called a dyad. Which explains how they were able to link up like that. It's started in TLJ when Kylo felt the rain. But if you want me to defend TROS I won't. On the whole, I did not care for it.

I have no issue with them introducing new powers as long as it's done right. I imagine some people were pissed when Palpatine shot electricity out of his hands in ROTJ.

 

[sullydnl]

I’m not a little a girl so don’t know. But we’re 3 movies in and neither Rey or Kylo are iconic the actual target audience.
But If in 15-20 years time Rey or Kylo suddenly get viewed as iconic, then I’ll understand

These are family/kid friendly films. Little kids seeing Star Wars for the first time are part of the target audience. They're not supposed to be aimed at 40 year old dudes with a hard on for Luke Skywalker.

 

[phonics_tid]

Somethings just dawned on me. At the end of Last Jedi, the kid uses the force to get the broom. Have I missed something or was that completely forgotten about in Skywalker? I get that JJ retconned a lot of stuff but that seemed like a huge set up for what was to come next.

 

[momo83]

These are family/kid friendly films. Little kids seeing Star Wars for the first time are part of the target audience. They're not supposed to be aimed at 40 year old dudes with a hard on for Luke Skywalker.

Shame for you then.
But yeah, your point about it being aimed at a new generation explains perfectly why they kept introducing old characters.

 

[DixieDean]

Somethings just dawned on me. At the end of Last Jedi, the kid uses the force to get the broom. Have I missed something or was that completely forgotten about in Skywalker? I get that JJ retconned a lot of stuff but that seemed like a huge set up for what was to come next.

The problem was not ignoring any kid in particular, after all, they're kids. But Luke's action should have been the one that inspired Lando and that huge fleet to come to the fight. Why JJ ignored this? I have no idea.

 

[Volumiza]

There is no argument with people who can argue the last two movies are any good. Entertaining for them? Sure, I can accept that, but objectively good and coherent? Not even close.

Agreed. I actually enjoyed watching all of the latest 3 in the cinema but what a massive, wasted opportunity. All the technology and money and potential to wrap up the Star Wars story with a bang and we’ve had 3 very disjointed films. Criminal really. I did enjoy them though.

The last Jedi is probably the worst movie I've seen at the cinema. Possibly ever.

Hyperbole at its finest.

 

[robinamicrowave]

The last Jedi is probably the worst movie I've seen at the cinema. Possibly ever.

How often do you go?

 

[sullydnl]

Somethings just dawned on me. At the end of Last Jedi, the kid uses the force to get the broom. Have I missed something or was that completely forgotten about in Skywalker? I get that JJ retconned a lot of stuff but that seemed like a huge set up for what was to come next.

It wasn't really a set up for the next film (as far as I read it) but rather an end-point for several strands within TLJ itself.

The broomstick kid:

1) Reinforced the idea that the resistance lived on.
2) Reinforced Luke's arc, with him having ended the film as an inspiration to the next wave after having started the film in a rather different place.
3) Reinforced the film's ideas on both the force and heroes generally, which was that they could come from anywhere. Even lowly broomstick kid had the potential to be a hero or a jedi, as opposed to it mattering what his background was or who he was related to. *cough*
4) Played into the meta-narrative the film was playing with. The broomstick kid was you, the audience, being inspired by the story of Luke Skywalker. You have to potential to be special too!

I doubt it was ever intended for that specific kid to go on to do anything in later films.

 

[Ødegaard]

How often do you go?

Around 10-20 times during a good year before our kid came. 5-ish when I didn't have a income as a kid. Not sure if it will be kept up now, but hopefully.

 

[phonics_tid]

It wasn't really a set up for the next film (as far as I read it) but rather an end-point for several strands within TLJ itself.

The broomstick kid:

1) Reinforced the idea that the resistance lived on.
2) Reinforced Luke's arc, with him having ended the film as an inspiration to the next wave after having started the film in a rather different place.
3) Reinforced the film's ideas on both the force and heroes generally, which was that they could come from anywhere. Even lowly broomstick kid had the potential to be a hero or a jedi, as opposed to it mattering what his background was or who he was related to. *cough*
4) Played into the meta-narrative the film was playing with. The broomstick kid was you, the audience, being inspired by the story of Luke Skywalker. You have to potential to be special too!

I doubt it was ever intended for that specific kid to go on to do anything in later films.

That’s my point though, wasn’t the kid in TLJ a reference to the fact that there are more jedi’s In the galaxy, yet Skywalker is set up to have Rey as the last Jedi. Even Palpatine references this.

 

[DixieDean]

That’s my point though, wasn’t the kid in TLJ a reference to the fact that there are more jedi’s In the galaxy, yet Skywalker is set up to have Rey as the last Jedi. Even Palpatine references this.

There are more force sensitive people out there, but that does not mean they are jedi.

 

[Ødegaard]

Agreed. I actually enjoyed watching all of the latest 3 in the cinema but what a massive, wasted opportunity. All the technology and money and potential to wrap up the Star Wars story with a bang and we’ve had 3 very disjointed films. Criminal really. I did enjoy them though.



Hyperbole at its finest.

I usually look up reviews of films from people I trust before watching them. Some blockbusters are exceptions. I knew there was a big chance of not liking it before going to the last Jedi.
It disappointed a lot.

But I had to remember something, so I was wrong. I watched the twilight trilogy at the cinema & spy kids 3d when I was younger a kid, so 5th worst movie I can remember having seen at the cinema.

 

[Volumiza]

I usually look up reviews of films from people I trust before watching them. Some blockbusters are exceptions. I knew there was a big chance of not liking it before going to the last Jedi.
It disappointed a lot.

But I had to remember something, so I was wrong. I watched the twilight trilogy at the cinema & spy kids 3d when I was younger a kid, so 5th worst movie I can remember having seen at the cinema.

You’ve done well then Ødegaard! As you’ve got a kid now, you’ll be dragged to see all sorts over the coming years believe me. I would imagine TLJ will come further down your list of worse films, take it from me matey haha.

 

[caid]

I usually look up reviews of films from people I trust before watching them. Some blockbusters are exceptions. I knew there was a big chance of not liking it before going to the last Jedi.
It disappointed a lot.

But I had to remember something, so I was wrong. I watched the twilight trilogy at the cinema & spy kids 3d when I was younger a kid, so 5th worst movie I can remember having seen at the cinema.

I dont think TLJ was a bad movie. I get why people didn't like or enjoy it but there was a level of competence to how it was put together thats completely absent in the new one.

 

[Redlambs]

Shame for you then.
But yeah, your point about it being aimed at a new generation explains perfectly why they kept introducing old characters.

Yep, some keep trying to push the narrative these things are aimed at the current generation, forgetting the fact it's the older generation who made these classic enough to warrant more films. That's exactly why they ended woth Palpatine ajd all the old guard, despite destroying their stories and trying to push new characters.

It's absolutely nuts to suggest these new characters will hold up to kids 20-30 years down the line. They are so nondescript for a start.

 

[phonics_tid]

There are more force sensitive people out there, but that does not mean they are jedi.

I assumed though that the kid was a subtle wink to the viewer that the next Jedi was out there. A play on the title of Last Jedi.

 

[sullydnl]

That’s my point though, wasn’t the kid in TLJ a reference to the fact that there are more jedi’s In the galaxy, yet Skywalker is set up to have Rey as the last Jedi. Even Palpatine references this.

Right after you posted this I randomly stumbled upon an interview with the writer Chris Terrio on Twitter where he talks about it. Basically his response was that people like broomstick kid still exist but he thought the relative storyline was more interesting so that's what they focused on instead.

 

[Ødegaard]

I dont think TLJ was a bad movie. I get why people didn't like or enjoy it but there was a level of competence to how it was put together thats completely absent in the new one.

I thought it was bad for a movie I went to the cinema for. If I had watched the trilogy at home I wouldn't have been as harsh, but I wouldn't have given it my full attention either.

You’ve done well then Ødegaard! As you’ve got a kid now, you’ll be dragged to see all sorts over the coming years believe me. I would imagine TLJ will come further down your list of worse films, take it from me matey haha.

Yeah, I expect to go to tons of shit movies (for me) soon enough, but at least then I'm there for my son to have fun so I'll judge the movies based on that instead.

TLJ is far from the worst movie I've ever seen though, I think that title goes to sucker punch or something like that. The whole lot I was with fell asleep due to how boring it was.

 

[Volumiza]

sucker punch

That should take up slots 1 - 7 of your worst films

 

[Oldyella]

The problem was not ignoring any kid in particular, after all, they're kids. But Luke's action should have been the one that inspired Lando and that huge fleet to come to the fight. Why JJ ignored this? I have no idea.

Because he was shit scared of following up on ANYTHING from TLJ in case it pissed off the internet. Honestly, between TFA being a new hope tribute act and TROS trying to avoid anything from the movies before it or anything like consequences for characters in it, JJ was a terrible choice for these films and deserves much more criticism for the damp squib these films have been than Rian.

 

[DixieDean]

Yep, some keep trying to push the narrative these things are aimed at the current generation, forgetting the fact it's the older generation who made these classic enough to warrant more films. That's exactly why they ended woth Palpatine ajd all the old guard, despite destroying their stories and trying to push new characters.

It's absolutely nuts to suggest these new characters will hold up to kids 20-30 years down the line. They are so nondescript for a start.

I suspect they were aimed at both younger and older audiences. And why the hell would they not do that? As for kids not liking the new characters, you would be shocked at how many people love the prequels. Why? Because they grew up with them and supplementary material like clone wars etc.

 

[DixieDean]

Because he was shit scared of following up on ANYTHING from TLJ in case it pissed off the internet. Honestly, between TFA being a new hope tribute act and TROS trying to avoid anything from the movies before it or anything like consequences for characters in it, JJ was a terrible choice for these films and deserves much more criticism for the damp squib these films have been than Rian.

Well, he did follow up on some stuff from TLJ, he just, for some reason left out it's the biggest story beat.

 

[Ubik]

Right after you posted this I randomly stumbled upon an interview with the writer Chris Terrio on Twitter where he talks about it. Basically his response was that people like broomstick kid still exist but he thought the relative storyline was more interesting so that's what they focused on instead.

I do wonder how long he'll get to dine off Argo before the Justice Leagues and Rise of Skywalkers catch up with him.

 

[Oldyella]

Well, he did follow up on some stuff from TLJ, he just, for some reason left out it's the biggest story beat.

I guess, yeah. Just the more I think about TROS, the more I just think it's ridiculous. Should probably just stay away from talking about it. Follow the Kevin Smith way and just not talk about stuff I dont like.

 

[Redlambs]

I suspect they were aimed at both younger and older audiences. And why the hell would they not do that? As for kids not liking the new characters, you would be shocked at how many people love the prequels. Why? Because they grew up with them and supplementary material like clone wars etc.

Of course they are aimed at both, but yet they pander to the older more to take their kids and sell toys. It's the smart thing to do. And the prequels huh? What new characters do anyone love in them that weren't already known beforehand?

Then compare those characters to Rey, Finn and Poe...

 

[DixieDean]

Of course they are aimed at both, but yet they pander to the older more to take their kids and sell toys. It's the smart thing to do. And the prequels huh? What new characters do anyone love in them that weren't already known beforehand?

Then compare those characters to Rey, Finn and Poe...

My point was, I don't think there was a single good character in the prequels. No one was well written or even likeable. But despite this, those movies have a large fanbase, and, yes some people even liked, Anakin, Padam and Darth Maul etc.

I don't know how this trilogy is viewed by kids or what it's lasting impression will be. But I would suggest if the prequels managed to spin off a decent-sized fanbase I don't think the new films will struggle to have their own fans. I think the new cast generally give decent to good performances and were likeable in their roles and that goes a long way.

 

[Redlambs]

My point was, I don't think there was a single good character in the prequels. No one was well written or even likeable. But despite this, those movies have a large fanbase, and, yes some people even liked, Anakin, Padam and Darth Maul etc.

I don't know how this trilogy is viewed by kids or what it's lasting impression will be. But I would suggest if the prequels managed to spin off a decent-sized fanbase I don't think the new films will struggle to have their own fans. I think the new cast generally give decent to good performances and were likeable in their roles and that goes a long way.

But the characters themselves are just plain, and already done before. That's why I said compare them to any of the prequel characters that were genuinely new.

And even then, SW is Han, Luke Leia, Vader, Palaptine, Chewy, etc...that's why they keep bringing them back.

My point is all that generation stuff is nonsense. No way, 30 years down the line, that either 90's or 10's kids think their respective films are the best and have the best characters just because that was their decade, that makes no sense. Even less so when you factor in both of those groups will likely have watched the originals first anyway.

 

[Ødegaard]

That should take up slots 1 - 7 of your worst films

Can't believe that people have watched the whole movie. I refuse to believe it.

 

[Redlambs]

I usually look up reviews of films from people I trust before watching them. Some blockbusters are exceptions. I knew there was a big chance of not liking it before going to the last Jedi.
It disappointed a lot.

But I had to remember something, so I was wrong. I watched the twilight trilogy at the cinema & spy kids 3d when I was younger a kid, so 5th worst movie I can remember having seen at the cinema.

Wait...wait...

Are we all just supposed to look past the fact you watched all 3 twilight films at the cinema? I mean, you saw the first then went back again and again???

feck Star Wars, the focus of the thread should switch to this!

 

[Ødegaard]

Wait...wait...

Are we all just supposed to look past the fact you watched all 3 twilight films at the cinema? I mean, you saw the first then went back again and again???

feck Star Wars, the focus of the thread should switch to this!

Wife wanted to see them and I hadn't grown the balls to say she could go without me.

 

[DixieDean]

But the characters themselves are just plain, and already done before. That's why I said compare them to any of the prequel characters that were genuinely new.

And even then, SW is Han, Luke Leia, Vader, Palaptine, Chewy, etc...that's why they keep bringing them back.

My point is all that generation stuff is nonsense. No way, 30 years down the line, that either 90's or 10's kids think their respective films are the best and have the best characters just because that was their decade, that makes no sense. Even less so when you factor in both of those groups will likely have watched the originals first anyway.

It's a slam dunk that the new characters will not be as popular as the OG cast. Not only were they in better movies, but those films and characters also caught lightning in a bottle. It was a moment in time and I don't think any new films will ever able to match. People will still talk about the OG characters/films in another 50 years.

I do think that Rey being a female lead was new and again, I can't say for sure, but I suspect that character will be popular with younger girls.

It's impossible to predict 30 years down the line, but I do think the first movies you see as kids stick with you to some degree. I don't know your opinion on the prequels, but if like me, you think they're bad how do you explain their popularity with a certain age group if not nostalgia?

 

[Redlambs]

It's a slam dunk that the new characters will not be as popular as the OG cast. Not only were they in better movies, but those films and characters also caught lightning in a bottle. It was a moment in time and I don't think any new films will ever able to match. People will still talk about the OG characters/films in another 50 years.

I do think that Rey being a female lead was new and again, I can't say for sure, but I suspect that character will be popular with younger girls.

It's impossible to predict 30 years down the line, but I do think the first movies you see as kids stick with you to some degree. I don't know your opinion on the prequels, but if like me, you think they're bad how do you explain their popularity with a certain age group if not nostalgia?

Are they more popular though? They are always behind the originals in every list, with only perhaps rots making it in. No matter the age group. But even so, they still have much stronger characters and more memorable stories than this new three. Not that I'm saying they are better films of course.

As for Rey, it's great to have a strong female lead I'm 100% for that. Just as I always am having balck or minority lead casts, the more the better as far as I'm concerned. But at least make them decent characters, Rey is dull as it comes no matter the skin colour or gender. It's just a terrible character all round, with Finn and Poe being just as generic and dull.

 

[momo83]

Yep, some keep trying to push the narrative these things are aimed at the current generation, forgetting the fact it's the older generation who made these classic enough to warrant more films. That's exactly why they ended woth Palpatine ajd all the old guard, despite destroying their stories and trying to push new characters.

It's absolutely nuts to suggest these new characters will hold up to kids 20-30 years down the line. They are so nondescript for a start.

Exactly. They’ll be forgotten, if anything it’s probably Palpatine, Darth Vadour, the original conflict and story of Luke, Leila, Han Solo, Chewie etc that will intrigue the minority of viewers that haven’t seen the original and encourage them to watch them.

 

[Art Vandelay]

If it's not from a sexist place than I apologize. I do find your nitpicking of her character odd, though. And what was taking the piss about the troll comment? Do explain.

Why would it be from a sexist place? I've repeatedly questioned the writing. There's no one else you can nitpick because no one else does anything of any consequence in the trilogy. Rey is the biggest problem in the writing. Rey is the main character. Everything before this trilogy is sacrificed to build Rey up and they've done a horrendous job with it because she's both over powered and super dull. I could question Kylo, but why bother? At least he almost had a character.

There's lots of stuff in Star Wars as a whole I disagree with. I hate how small the prequels made the galaxy with everything connected or related. Anakin building 3PO, the droids being involved the whole time, etc. Attack of the Clones in itself is an atrocious film. I hate that they brought Maul back from being sliced in half. I hate the original story bringing Palpatine back and I hate this one. Dead should be dead for me. I hate what Karen Traviss did with Mandalorians. I don't like the Jedi and Sith being painted as so black and white good and evil. There's lots I don't like in the whole. In the context of this trilogy though Rey is the biggest issue and almost all other issues stem from how they tried to write her.

The troll thing combined with bringing sexism into is exactly the defence they tried to pull to shut down criticism of TLJ. Don't like it? You must be a sexist/racist troll. They tried the same thing with Captain Marvel and Ghostbusters. It's an attempt to take away the opinion of anyone that doesn't like what they're selling. Not liking a film shouldn't be something that can get you labelled. Unless you don't like Predator then you should be labelled as weird and sent to an island to think about your actions and possibly hunted for sport.