With Cafu overlapping, Messi occupying defenders and with midfield control assured given the quality gap between Makelele/Gerrard/Prosinecki and Marchisio/Nakata/Mendieta, I can see these sorts of opportunities to finish from around the edge of the box emerging for both Gerrard and Messi. And there are few if any better than those two from around the edge of the area.
Surveillance Draft - R1- OneNil vs Gio
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
A quick point on the central defence against Onenil's main threat Henry. Generally I'd assume that the threat would be limited because of the control we have in midfield, and clearly had since the 30th minute. But where there's a counter, I'd certainly recognise Henry's pace and have set my team to play a normal-to-slightly deep line to take account of that, with close support from Filipe Luis and Claude Makelele.
And I'd consider how imperious Cannavaro was as a man-mountain in quashing Henry and everyone else in 2006:
And it's worth highlighting how Naybet's Deportivo turned over Henry's Arsenal 3 times out of 4 in 2000 and 2002, with Naybet even helping himself to a goal at one of the Highbury fixtures:
On the whole I think we have some really effective defenders there to mitigate the threat posed by Onenil. Combine that with overall midfield control, the overload of Cafu down the right and the central role of Messi in all of this and I'd say we are well set for the win here
And I'd consider how imperious Cannavaro was as a man-mountain in quashing Henry and everyone else in 2006:
And it's worth highlighting how Naybet's Deportivo turned over Henry's Arsenal 3 times out of 4 in 2000 and 2002, with Naybet even helping himself to a goal at one of the Highbury fixtures:
On the whole I think we have some really effective defenders there to mitigate the threat posed by Onenil. Combine that with overall midfield control, the overload of Cafu down the right and the central role of Messi in all of this and I'd say we are well set for the win here
Fine team @oneniltothearsenal and certainly from what I've seen the strongest from the first round of matches. I was chuffed with my own side so can't argue with it coming down to the odd vote in 37. I was interested in the draw to see how the goalkeeper committee adjudicated on Cordoba v Baia.
You had a fine team but I rated his defence better able to cope.
Didn't realize mine would be the deciding vote.
19-18, wow. Chickened out and decided not to vote in the end, it was too close for me
It's a shame that Gio was eliminated as he build an excellent side (again), but onenil just edged it for me. I like well crafted and drafted diamonds and this one for me was one of them. Probably the Nakata as LCM is one of the biggest issue and got me thinking of swaying a vote in the opposite direction, but Masch and Marchisio in that role limited the damage to an extend.
Anyone mind if we tell?
Was on the fence before the injury but was going to vote for Gio after the injury as Nakata and Marchisio didn't convince me in those roles. Shame I missed the deadline, cracking match up.
Your team was superb and I actually gave you my first vote as best drafter, but I think the matchups here were against you and OneNil just edged it for me. It was a tough break as I think your team would've beat 90% of other first round teams.
Great game @Gio. closest ive been in and great to see so many votes . you built a superb side.
I think we can PM him?
Yeah, clearly the 2 best teams so far. I was tempted not to vote because I appreciate both managers.
Gio had 5-6 final-ready players. A little bit disappointed by his midfield.
I would have voted for Gio with Messi on the right + a top CF (OR a more appropriate central midfielder instead of Prosinecki).
Bitter taste to see Gio out given the inferior quality of most teams and his contributions.
The odd thing is he picked it relatively early. To me it had the looks of a Mourinho type midfield with Makelele and Gerrard as Lampard, and I wondered whether that was the right midfield for a front three with Messi as false 9.
It's a difficult one because the midfield was shaping up for Messi at RW, but do you give up on the best Messi? I would have, would also make the team far less reliant on him.
It's arguable is the false 9 is the best Messi though. But I think what mostly influenced Gio here is Maldini - he'll negate almost everyone in the eyes of the voters, seems like a waste of the best player in the pool
It was too close to call for me before the injuries but after that I thought the problems with Onenil's midfield (nakata at LCM mostly) dwarfed any issues with Gio's midfield bringing the best out of Messi.
So harsh that one of these teams had to go out, as either would have beaten any team we've seen so far IMO.
Even though I voted Gio in the end due to injuries it wasn't my favourite side of his tbh.
The midfield just felt odd to me and the entire attacking unit lacked a cohesiveness that I'd associate with one of his teams. Mak n Gerrard okay I could see where that is going but it needed a Modric or a game controller to give that midfield some class and balance.
Messi alongside two dribble wizards who are more creative rather than penetrative didn't fit well with me either .. Where was the Pedro and Villa equivalents. I concur with those who think he should have grabbed a CF.
Talented but ultimately disjointed team for me whereas one nils team seemed to fit together beautifully pre injury.
The midfield just felt odd to me and the entire attacking unit lacked a cohesiveness that I'd associate with one of his teams. Mak n Gerrard okay I could see where that is going but it needed a Modric or a game controller to give that midfield some class and balance.
Messi alongside two dribble wizards who are more creative rather than penetrative didn't fit well with me either .. Where was the Pedro and Villa equivalents. I concur with those who think he should have grabbed a CF.
Talented but ultimately disjointed team for me whereas one nils team seemed to fit together beautifully pre injury.
Liked Gio's midfield myself, it had a nice blend of class, crunch and steel. Thought Messi would have thrived playing ahead of them, being the well defined prime player of the side. Tbf, it does heavily hinge on how one views/rate Prosinečki's dynamics with Messi, and that would seriously weigh heavily on Messi's impact here. Gerrard seemed fine to me in an attacking B2B role. He's one if those players whom you just can't quite catch a break with - play him in a slightly orthodox and a tactically normal role and he's too indisciplined for it; play him in a free attacking role and it's Hollywood Stevie G going Gung ho trying to win the match on his own. I'm sure Gio must have known the risks of picking him beforehand tbf.
Didn't quite like Laudrup in that RW role with Messi as the false 9, esp with Cafu of all people being the RWB. A more forward-esque RWF and it would have been better, freeing up Cafu with the RWF engaging and dragging Maldini inwards, and of course leading to better inter-play with Messi.
Didn't quite like Laudrup in that RW role with Messi as the false 9, esp with Cafu of all people being the RWB. A more forward-esque RWF and it would have been better, freeing up Cafu with the RWF engaging and dragging Maldini inwards, and of course leading to better inter-play with Messi.
I kept flip-flopping about changing vote, but once López pulling Ramos away was off the table the most mouthwatering prospect on the pitch for me was that top right quadrant diamond of Mendieta - Caniggia with Litmanen-Maicon either side of that axis.
It looked the most unstoppable and consistently dominating aspect of the game. The counter to it, i.e. Proscinecki-Naybet + Makelele-Luis looked a bit mish mash by comparison, far more than Nakata v Gerrard.
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Aye, there was still loads to like about Onenil's team even after the injuries. The midfield would have been fine against most teams but just looked too lightweight to me up against Gio's juggernaut of an attack. I'm not sure how other people remember Nakata but I considered him a pure AM with a good workrate but no particular aptitude defensively. He'd struggle against Gerrard, and wouldn't offer much in terms of covering the wide areas either.
The 'game controller ala Modric' was Prosinecki. I brought him in because the midfield was close to becoming a Mourinho-esque midfield needing a big target man as other comments have identified. As @Šjor Bepo said I don't think folk appreciate just how much he classily bossed midfields at Red Star. In fairness was very close to going Alonso and then Ballack/Lampard instead of Gerrard.
And Claudio Lopez was more penetrative rather than creative - I think that Messi/Lopez axis was uncontestable. Laudrup yeah I get those concerns, but always thought he was multi-faceted enough to fit in anywhere and was a dynamite pick in an injury-related draft (never mind his country and club career too). But @Joga Bonito I'd agree with the Cafu/Laudrup flank not quite being ideal. Initial plan was for Messi and Cafu to be the right flank, but the whole top tier of centre-forwards became unavailable after the Messi/Cafu/Cannavaro picks. As for Gerrard, I knew he's a nightmare on this forum but it seemed lunacy from a team-building perspective not to grab a player of his incredible quality, even as a matter of principle if nothing else.
My bad, Claudio Lopez does indeed provide that penetrative threat.. could he have played on the right and Laudrup left (not his ideal position but I have seen video's of him playing out on that flank).
Prosinecki.. correct me if I'm wrong, I saw him more as a ball carrying midfielder or wide player.. sort of guy you let off the leash to do what he wants.
Wonderful player, but I see him as like a more game controlling version of a Pogba in terms of positioning on the pitch. Pairing him with a Gerrard, didn't seem an ideal fit to me from a balance perspective.
Nakata is an AM alright, but being asked to fulfill a more disciplined role in an emergency situation I would expect him to be OK. It's Gerrard, not Zidane. You will need an engine and willingness to track him, not exceptional defensive qualities.
It was a concern, sure, but I was more sold on the impact of Mendieta over any other midfielder.
It isn't just about it being on this forum though, I could never see Gerrard and Messi ever being on the same wavelength, they literally come from completely different tactical schools and their playing styles would never combine well. I think as soon as you picked Messi you should have concentrated on targetting players for your attacking midfield and attack who would share some sort of principles and ethics that Messi has played with. Players who would value teamwork, chemistry, selflessness and the sum of the parts being more then the individual. e.g. Michael Laudrup wasn't available but he'd fit in like an absolute glove in the position you played Gerrard and combine with Leo like a dream. Something similar to that.
Gerrard is literally opposite to that. He was a selfish player throughout his career, even till his last days when the fans couldn't tolerate him starting games and he still couldn't curb his hollywood balls and unrealistic shooting. He always went for being the Roy of the Rovers, and when it came off it looked great but in this team with someone like Messi running the show, controlling the flow of attacks that act would simply never work. It was fine when he was doing that with the likes of Heskey, Baros, Luis Garcia or whatever trash he had with him, when he had the absolute licence to do whatever the feck he wanted, and a lot of the time it was good for the team that he did most of the attacking himself individually as the rest wasn't good enough but here, it was really out of place. Would have been worth seeing Messi's reaction when he's opened himself up in space only to watch a 40 yard piledriver end up in space. These two players really are polar opposites - one has been taught the importance of efficiency, keeping the ball, possession, making the right passes even if it is a 5 yard one, only taking shots when the goal is really open and if it isn't then passing it to the better option and what not while the other has absolutely no regard of any of that, in any way.
Agree with this and culture clash. Disagree with how you've torn apart Gerrard there.. he has his faults yes, but he isn't this out of control maniac that can't even be trusted in an attacking midfield role because his decision making is so selfish.. I mean Torres loved playing with him.
My only issue with them in the same side is that it is very hard to get the best of both of them in the same side as there is a big culture clash there and both need alot of players to be the right fit for them as they pretty much dictate the system around them.
In an ideal world if you were to try and fit them in the same side..
Ribery Eto'o Messi
Gerrard
Davids Modric
I'm sure something like that could work. Young dribbling Messi.. at his most direct best, Gerrard dictating attacking midfield play behind a striker who is like Torres and Ribery providing proper width and hugging the touchline.Gerrard
Davids Modric
Imagine Messi cutting in and then Gerrard running around the outside of him down the right flank and whipping in a brilliant ball once Messi has hit a reverse through ball between the LCB and LB.. I could see that working beautifully.
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It will be out of sync with someone like Messi, absolutely. Leo comes from a school where getting a pass exactly when you want it, for example, is absolutely vital - which is why I touched on chemistry. Throughout his career he has had that factor at Barcelona and it isn't a surprise that his performances drop when he plays for Argentina due to lack of it. His entire play revolves around having his teammates being in absolute sync with him, with their movements, passing and reading of play. Even in the current team Neymar knows exactly when Messi is going to release the ball and Messi knows exactly which direction Neymar will take, it's telepathic. When I saw this team and looked at the AM position the first person that came to mind was obviously Iniesta, and then I looked at Gerrard and it just broke down. It isn't really nitpicking, the disparity is pretty huge. Like Gio himself said, he picked Gerrard more on account of his individual quality which is fine but I believe he did overlook the combination a bit.
Nah I totally agree.. see my post, everything you say is bang on the money. Saying anything beyond peak Messi and I can't see it fitting with Gerrard.. false 9 Messi for example, definitely a bad fit with Stevie G.
Only possible version of Messi which would work is that young Messi from pre 08/09.
My only gripe was the fact you basically shat on Gerrard as a player to make your point, which seeing as it was a very good point.. you didn't need to do that. Gerrard is a great player in his own right, yes he isn't a good fit with Messi but doesn't make him a lesser player. Many great players would struggle to complement Messi.
You take Iniesta and play him behind Torres in that 08/09 Liverpool side, would that Liverpool side be stronger for it.. no. Horses for courses.
No man, like I said most of the time his 'selfishness' was important for the team, because it was just him who could make the difference so him going for glory himself made more sense then trying to pass it to Emile Heskey etc. The ability to singlehandedly pull off wins was what made him great and gave him the all action style of play that he relished. All that though wouldn't work with a player like Messi, that's all.
Yeah definitely, the individual quality of anyone isn't a question here but it's more about the fundamentals they follow.
yup, same goes for Xavi and Iniesta really. You need those players to have team mates on the same wavelength. Gerrard is more of a direct type of player/style that will fit a different type of team and ideology. Makelele/Gerrard on its own is a good pair but then you either need to build on that midfield or Messi as a star man. The two combined is a bit off.
Agreed, Laudrup was versatile enough to play on either flanks and even in a free role, like he did at times for Denmark and Rangers iirc. It's just that a more forward-esque player would have been more ideal in that forward trio like you said. Although tbf, you certainly had Gerrard bombing forward and providing some goal-threat in that area of the pitch.
Hmm, perhaps Gerrard in his 06 RW role and Laudrup in a free roaming AM role (having plenty of room to venture out to either flank with Gerrard/Lopez cutting in) might have been interesting an interesting option.
Aye, came close to picking him myself but knew it wouldn't be worth it. Don't agree with the criticism of him as far as I'm concerned. I always bought him in a free role (2006, 2009/10) and he was never the 'heart-beat' of his side. Alonso was the critical component of the side and Gerrard was more of the topping (albeit being a pretty good one) who rounded off the side.
Fwiw, I don't quite see Gerrard as a ball hogging or an overly selfish player (apart from his shooting perhaps). He did have plenty of drive but it's no different from several attacking B2B players throughout history (some of whom were relatively more dominant on the ball - Breitner, Matthäus, Coluna etc whom I'm sure would have been relatively more well received than Gerrard here.) I do buy the tactical indiscipline claim leveled at him but it does go way overboard at times.
Anyway, excuse me while I go take a shower.
The difference is, he doesn't provide consistency of those players (Matthäus, Breitner etc). Although there is definitely a United bias against him here (and in my heart/head too), and his weaknesses are highlighted by the endless comparisons with our very own Ginger Prince, along with his pointless hollywood heroics in the last season in England
Definitely. In terms of consistency and quality, he's eons behind the players mentioned above imo. It's just the claim about him being an extremely selfish/wasteful player which I don't agree with. Tbf, he did have a lot of onus on him and was relatively more wasteful than his counterparts, so I can definitely understand where it's coming from. However, I do think it's a bit overblown though at times.
And how would he compare to Robson?
Again, the wrong forum to discuss that
I'd have them around the same level, actually, although not sure if Gerrard would've been able to outshine Maradona over the two legs
Don't know about that.. for me Gerrard edges it as an attacking threat but as a pure B2B player, Robbo wins it easily.. he had that touch more class with his short passing and could control a game more. He was more subtle.Again, the wrong forum to discuss that
I'd have them around the same level, actually, although not sure if Gerrard would've been able to outshine Maradona over the two legs
Yeah this. Gerrard had more oomph to him in the attacking phase, but as a midfield general it's not a contest imo.
I wouldn't put him in the bracket of Matthaus and Breitner. But in terms of consistency he was right up there from around 2004 to 2010, which is a long period as one of the finest attacking midfielders in the game. He was chosen 8 times in the Premier League Team of the Year which is miles ahead of anyone else. What he was doing well past his prime in 2014 is less relevant IMO in assessing his peak but does, as you say, colour people's perceptions of him.
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Still remember watching Gerrard against the Albion and bear in mind, seen pretty much all the prem players including Scholes from that time period live and he was the one who blew me away with how commanding he was (08/09 season).
During the warm up itself, he was side-footing 40 yard shots into the corner every time effortlessly. I hope this match doesn't put people picking him next time, because he truly was a special player.
Still remember watching Gerrard against the Albion and bear in mind, seen pretty much all the prem players including Scholes from that time period live and he was the one who blew me away with how commanding he was (08/09 season).
During the warm up itself, he was side-footing 40 yard shots into the corner every time effortlessly. I hope this match doesn't put people picking him next time, because he truly was a special player.