VivaJanuzaj
Full Member
Good game @Downcast.
Really tough luck with the result and injuries
Really tough luck with the result and injuries
1st line-up: the idea was to have Baggio behind Eto'o & Kaka. If the opposing team has the ball, Baggio will remain at the heart of the game to limit the influence of Cambiasso-Effenberg. That is why, I say 2 players have to fight against 3 players (Maniche, Brolin, Baggio)... because the obsession of Pirès-Overmars will be to outflank my defence. Obvious to me.Baggio is a central midfielder? You sure that you haven't done a De Boer here, confusing Roberto with Dino? Seriously, wtf?
Yeah, no Denilson and no @Joga Bonito on the wings. I've never said they were traditional wingers but they were able to operate on the flanks: you just need to watch their best of on Youtube. Brolin was a right-midfielder in a 4-4-2 system at the WC 94.Honestly there's nothing ridiculous in those comments. None of Baggio, Kaka or Brolin are capable of providing width. They certainly can drift wide, but are more likely to cut in. None would stretch my defence or try to beat my fullbacks.
Maybe Camoranesi, but you played him wrong. He's not in his element as a wingback and in the new formation is not played as a wide midfielder. Can drift wide, but nothing enough to cause concern for my wingers.
Candela, yes. But that just opens him up to counter by Overmars. No way he's fast enough to win that battle.
Yeah, very interesting, especially if Pizarro has excellent passing skillsIf only Downcast went for Gabi and Pizarro in midfield, I'd have voted for his.
--------------Eto'o
Kaka -----------------
Baggio
-------------------- Camoranesi
Gabi -----------------------
Pizarro
-- Back Four--
That's pretty tasty.
Good game too. Not really a matter of luck here.Good game @Downcast.
Really tough luck with the result and injuries
Well Brolin is proven as a wide midfielder and Kaka was formerly a wide midfielder who was moved central to maximise the impact of his sheer acceleration on the game. Then you also have Eto'o who is proven as a wide attacker at Inter and probed right across Barcelona's front line. Collectively there was plenty of width - the decisive factor was the balance in the centre of midfield.Honestly there's nothing ridiculous in those comments. None of Baggio, Kaka or Brolin are capable of providing width. They certainly can drift wide, but are more likely to cut in. None would stretch my defence or try to beat my fullbacks.
Maybe Camoranesi, but you played him wrong. He's not in his element as a wingback and in the new formation is not played as a wide midfielder. Can drift wide, but nothing enough to cause concern for my wingers.
Candela, yes. But that just opens him up to counter by Overmars. No way he's fast enough to win that battle.
Unlucky mate, not really about compassion because you can't see the vote score until you vote. Baggio is one of my favourite players of all time . Can see why the other team won but shouldn't be by 20 odd vote margin imo.Thanks to the voters who had compassion on me OR who have adhered to my strategy
@sajeev
@oneniltothearsenal
@2mufc0
@green_smiley
@Joga Bonito
I think if you started with the initial formation I'd have second thoughts on the vote. It would posed a serious threat to EAP/Viva backline and with Xabi Alonso from deep would be a formidable team. Unlucky with tie injuries as well.Thanks to the voters who had compassion on me OR who have adhered to my strategy
@sajeev
@oneniltothearsenal
@2mufc0
@green_smiley
@Joga Bonito
I know but one of my voters has changed his mind during the game.Unlucky mate, not really about compassion because you can't see the vote score until you vote. Baggio is one of my favourite players of all time . Can see why the other team won but shouldn't be by 20 odd vote margin imo.
Sure, they are second-class defenders in this respect.@Downcast FWIW mate, that attacking trio you built.. not enough was made of how Hyppia and Pepe are expected to deal with such class players through the middle.
Second class is tad too harsh, but yeah...I was really hoping to avoid discussion on our CBsSure, they are second-class defenders in this respect.
And @VivaJanuzaj knows that, in a previous life, I would have made 15 gifs to illustrate the battles pepe vs etoo or kaka vs hyppia
Don't think they are second class defenders, but imo it all comes from shielding from midfield. You can have the best defenders out there but without the midfield being able to stop the ball early you'll get slaughtered and we had great help from two defensively strong midfielders.Sure, they are second-class defenders in this respect.
And @VivaJanuzaj knows that, in a previous life, I would have made 15 gifs to illustrate the battles pepe vs etoo or kaka vs hyppia
Hyypia is, really. Pepe, on the other hand, has been one of the best defenders in the world for quite some time. Never the best, but always somewhere near (and a clearly superior defender to his partner in crime Ramos).Second class is tad too harsh, but yeah...I was really hoping to avoid discussion on our CBs
He was a class player early in his scouse career, 2000-2005 abouts. Not fast, but good intelligence and positioning. The later years tend to cloud over his best era.Hyypia is, really. Pepe, on the other hand, has been one of the best defenders in the world for quite some time. Never the best, but always somewhere near (and a clearly superior defender to his partner in crime Ramos).
Hyppia and even Pepe can be carried to some extent by a superior partner but not by each other in the context of the trio you were facing.Second class is tad too harsh, but yeah...I was really hoping to avoid discussion on our CBs
IMO he's a bit of a poor man's Hansen. Rate him as a defender but you need to upgrade him. Pepe on the other hand will make a good stopper for the next round so it's not that vital at this point given the pool.He was a class player early in his scouse career, 2000-2005 abouts. Not fast, but good intelligence and positioning. The later years tend to cloud over his best era.
Aye, I had no issue whatsoever with the width in Downcast's team. It just really needed a more traditional CM in there instead of that third AM.Well Brolin is proven as a wide midfielder and Kaka was formerly a wide midfielder who was moved central to maximise the impact of his sheer acceleration on the game. Then you also have Eto'o who is proven as a wide attacker at Inter and probed right across Barcelona's front line. Collectively there was plenty of width - the decisive factor was the balance in the centre of midfield.
No at all.And yeah, I really expected a gif festival from you but I think the early lead kind of blew the wind out of your sails and that Eto'o injury was just a blow.
CheersCommendable enthusiasm
I forgot to respond at the time but I appreciated the Brolin vids. I do remember him at his peak but it was a long time ago and it was good to revisit him. He's certainly one I'd like to see appear again in a draftNo at all.
My main priority was not really to 'win' but to tell a new story.
1 year of drafts so I know voters' way of thinking: I knew it was challenging to sell Camoranesi as a defender, Brolin as a central midfielder able to offer something different and so on.
Before that game, my intention was only to focus on my players and not to denigrate the opposing players. Before my 1st post, the game was already over (9-2 for you). Then, I've taken the time to finish the explanation of my 1st line-up and dissect the style of play of Brolin. After that, I've submitted a 2nd line-up. Eto'o injury is rather anecdotal in the sense we had something like 17-3 just before (26-6 at the end).
I have made 24 posts here against 21 for you both. Let's say I was not interested in repeating this week that 'player A > player 1 and player B > player 2 so my team ABC will dominate away and at home'.
Widith tends to be discussed in a very black and white manner in these games, with supplementary width rarely getting much credit. Baggio and Kaka aren't going to provide the same consistent outlet on the wing as an Overmars will, nor will they attack the byline as often, but as you say they both did some of their best work from wide areas.It drives me mad during these games when I read that Baggio was incapable of providing width.
Drifting wide to receive the ball and then attacking the box with trickery and directness was at the very forefront of his greatest play.
Yes he wasn't the type to hug the touchline and deliver crosses from the byline but a side with Eto'o at its peak isn't going to be relying on that sort of width anyway.
He had exquisite close control and footwork, was one of the finest dribblers ever to play the game and loved taking on defenders at pace, particularly from wide areas. This consensus that he was a narrow player wrecks my head. You put him on the left hand side of a modern 3 pronged attack and he'd be devastating.
I agree with all that, but it seems some players are pigeonholed more than others.Widith tends to be discussed in a very black and white manner in these games, with supplementary width rarely getting much credit. Baggio and Kaka aren't going to provide the same consistent outlet on the wing as an Overmars will, nor will they attack the byline as often, but as you say they both did some of their best work from wide areas.
We're all guilty of the reductionist arguments though. If you're fielding two wingers of course you're going to highlight your width advantage, just as you'd argue that you'd control the midfield if you have greater numbers in the middle.
By your definition, the United side of 2006-2008 with a front 3 of Ronny, Rooney and Tevez had no width.What's the purpose of width? Width for me is stretching the defence. If a player is taking on or being covered by a fullback, then I can say he's operating on a wide area. If he tends to pick up a ball from a DM covered position and run at CB then it's not exactly width. Defence is still compact and goals are scored by individual abilities. A wide player should stretch the defence and open spaced for others to exploit. I don't think Baggio or Kaka fits that category.
United' Ronny can't be discounted as such. But Rooney/Tevez didn't offer width.By your definition, the United side of 2006-2008 with a front 3 of Ronny, Rooney and Tevez had no width.
Kaka certainly fits in that category.What's the purpose of width? Width for me is stretching the defence. If a player is taking on or being covered by a fullback, then I can say he's operating on a wide area. If he tends to pick up a ball from a DM covered position and run at CB then it's not exactly width. Defence is still compact and goals are scored by individual abilities. A wide player should stretch the defence and open spaced for others to exploit. I don't think Baggio or Kaka fits that category.
But they both did.United' Ronny can't be discounted as such. But Rooney/Tevez didn't offer width.
I agree that there's a distinction to be made between dropping out wide in deeper areas vs offering width further up the park, but I think you're off the mark with your conclusions about Baggio and Kaka. Here he's up against the midfield line when he picks the ball up, but once he slices through them he clearly pulls the RB away with him before beating the CBs.What's the purpose of width? Width for me is stretching the defence. If a player is taking on or being covered by a fullback, then I can say he's operating on a wide area. If he tends to pick up a ball from a DM covered position and run at CB then it's not exactly width. Defence is still compact and goals are scored by individual abilities. A wide player should stretch the defence and open spaced for others to exploit. I don't think Baggio or Kaka fits that category.
Carbon copy of Micky's goal
Is it possible to win trophies without 'pure wingers'?What's the purpose of width? Width for me is stretching the defence. If a player is taking on or being covered by a fullback, then I can say he's operating on a wide area. If he tends to pick up a ball from a DM covered position and run at CB then it's not exactly width. Defence is still compact and goals are scored by individual abilities. A wide player should stretch the defence and open spaced for others to exploit. I don't think Baggio or Kaka fits that category.
Good postI agree that there's a distinction to be made between dropping out wide in deeper areas vs offering width further up the park, but I think you're off the mark with your conclusions about Baggio and Kaka. Here he's up against the midfield line when he picks the ball up, but once he slices through them he clearly pulls the RB away with him before beating the CBs.
This one is probably even clearer, with him picking the ball up wide high up the park, and getting past the side defenders before taking on the CBs:
The Kaka videos @Downcast posted clearly illustrate Kaka's ability to stretch defences, with him rinsing full backs constantly in this one particularly:
Of course there's still an argument to be made as to what extent these type of plays were a prominent feature of their game, and they still don't provide the constant outlet that someone like Overmars will, but it's inaccurate to disregard their contribution to width completely.
It was a question that had nothing to do with this game.Is it possible to win trophies without 'pure wingers'?
Another question could have been 'What's the purpose of my offensive players?' To exploit the weaknesses of your second-class defenders and.. score goals.
Hard to quantify.It was a question that had nothing to do with this game.
Just a definition of width, generically. The last line of Pat's post covers my thoughts. These players do operate out wide, but how often in a match?
I'm going to caricature some players but in terms of allocation of time per channels during a game, I'd say:It was a question that had nothing to do with this game.
Just a definition of width, generically. The last line of Pat's post covers my thoughts. These players do operate out wide, but how often in a match?