Synth Draft: QF - Invictus vs Pat

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Physiocrat

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Invictus



Pat



Invictus

Formation: Balanced 4231

The excellent wide threat from the previous round goes into overdrive with the addition of El Beatle Best: the most explosive player on the pitch and best winger in the draft. On the other side is the second best winger in the pool, Džajić:
A dazzling dribbler, Džajić was named his nation's Golden Player to mark UEFA's Golden Jubilee in 2004. He won more caps for the former Yugoslavia than any other player, 85 from 1964–79, and saved his best for the UEFA European Championship. Dzajic was in rampant form in 1968, clocking up 3 goals and 3 assists out of 8 goals Yugoslavia scored against France, England and Italy. Those defences boasted some top class personnel - he ghosted in behind Bobby Moore and lobbed Gordon Banks to knock out the world champions - and Džajić combined both productivity and the dazzling dribbling we fame him for in unlocking them. Top scorer in 1968 and again in the team of the tournament in 1976, this time giving Berti Vogts the runaround. Džajić's delivery with his magical left foot was a joy to behold and his attachment to Crvena Zvezda, for whom he scored 287 goals in 590 games
Backing them is the balanced duo of McGrain (arguably the greatest rightback in British football) and Marinho - who were quality contributors in both attack and defense. With this quartet, we believe we have the perfect cast to cause real problems for the opposition in wider areas.

Spearheading the attack is 1978 European Golden Shoe Krankl - a mobile, complete striker who rattled 36 goals in 40 games for Barcelona at his peak and missed out on the Ballon D'Or 1st place title by just 5 votes - finishing as runner up:
He was a finisher par excellence, with superb predatory instincts and an extremely strong left foot. At a shade under six foot, Krankl was strong in the air and had a sudden burst of speed that lethally combined with his intelligent movement. With short hair and an awkward moustache, he even looked different from Cruyff with his Jagger-esque swagger.
Orchestrating play through the middle is Hagi: The Maradona of the Carpathians - one of the all-time great #10's who captured the imagination in 1994 with several mesmerizing performances:


Patrolling the center of the park is the monstrous box-to-box tandem of Matthäus and Tigana - two complete midfielders capable of magic on the ball whilst also providing drive, energy and defensive fortitude in midfield. In our opinion Matthäus is the best central midfielder of all time, and Tigana one of the greatest defensive box-to-box players along with the likes of Keane - ultimately we feel the duo will be too strong to handle and should provide the platform to win the game.

Behind them is the complementary Blanc + Desailly-esque pairing of Le Président Blanc himself - an excellent ballplayer and natural orchestrator from deep, and Vierchowod - one of the most ruthless stoppers of all time and the epitome of Italian defensive spirit.

And then there's the final impediment in the shape of the behemoth Schmeichel - the best keeper in the pool and all time great:



Why we should win:

1. Superiority in midfield: we like Clodoaldo and Brady but feel we have the edge in our counterparts which should allow us to gain an upper hand in the heart of the game - both on and off the ball. And that's without taking into account the edge Matthäus has over Breitner.

2. Superiority in wider areas: Boniek and Rensenbrink are great players, but our side has two of the best wingers in the history of the game (let alone this pool). In our opinion, Dzajic and Best are likely to be game deciders whilst going on slaloming runs: Best because - well, he's Best, and needs to be double or even triple marked to avert the menace he poses; and Džajić because - well, he's Džajić and also he's up against the more offensively oriented Bezsonov down the left flank.

3. In the interest of transparency and fairness, yes, Krankl is worse than Van Basten - that much is obvious and is probably the first thing that will be noticed in a comparative sense. But in our opinion, the overall superiority of the cast behind him negates that to an extent and Krankl ultimately has an outstanding platform to impact the match as a prototypical 9.

4. The back fours of both teams are a similar level, but we reckon ours has an edge in overall balance with the complimentary trio of Blanc, Schmeichel and Vierchowod being extremely tough to crack for the opposition.


Pat

We line up in a 4-3-3 formation. Argentinian great Daniel Passarella bolsters the defence, and slots into an ideal set up that will allow him to orchestrate things from the back and indulge in the occasional attacking foray that made him such a prolific goalscorer as a defender. With a standout goalkeeper in Jose Luis Chilavert behind him, he's flanked by a classy, defensive-orientated left back in Bossis and a rugged stopper in Guido Buchwald. At rightback, Bezsonov will have slightly more licence to attack than Bossis, but he's instructed to play a disciplined game against a dangerous direct opponent in Dzajic.

Brazilian World Cup winner Clodoaldo anchors the midfield, with box to box colossus Paul Breitner and the elegant Irish playmaker Liam Brady ahead of him. Our other new signing Zibi Boniek starts on the right of our three man attack. With the greatest centre forward in the draft in van Basten as the focal point, Boniek and Rensenbrink have licence to roam and interchange at will, and will pose a demanding challenge to the opposition defenders.
 

Invictus

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A few words on the man who replaces Dinu...


JEAN TIGANA


French Division 1 Rookie of the Year: 1980
French Player of the Year: 1984
Onze d'Argent: 1984
Ballon d'Or – Runner-up: 1984
UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 1984
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1986
Onze de Bronze: 1987

Considered by many to be the greatest French central midfielder of all time - an impressive feat for a country that produced the likes of Vieira, Makelélé, Deschamps. A diminutive yet colossal figure with with limitless stamina and an inch perfect tackle, he provides defensive solidity whilst fitting perfectly with Matthäus. The perfect amalgam of technique, drive, tactical appreciation and positional discipline - Tigana peaked as one of the absolute best defensive box-to-box midfielders of all time in France's legendary Carré Magique setup - extending from the '80s where he reached two consecutive World Cup semi-finals and won the 1984 EURO to the the '90s:
“I remember Tigana was 63kg, a defensive midfielder and he was unbelievable defensively. He had that technique. I played against him [in a kickabout] at the European Championship in Sweden in 1992 and he was still the same – he won every challenge.

- Arsène Wenger
Indeed, so influential was Tigana for France that he ended 2nd in the Ballon D'Or voting - with UEFA rating him alongside Platini in EURO 1984. Aside from his tireless work ethic and positional awareness, Tigana was frequently a menace in possession for one of the most dominant midfields in football - making crucial contributions at the highest stages of football.

e.g. Tigana's assist in the EURO '84 final:


Evidence of his incredible resilience with an assist in the last minute of extra time in the semis vs Portugal:

Despite Santillana's continued aerial defiance, there was no way back, Yvon Le Roux's sending off five minutes from time coming too late. Instead Jean Tigana, the player of the tournament despite Platini's goals, sent Bellone through to chip Arconada for the only one of France's 14 goals to have been scored by a striker, a statistic the new champions could live with.
That indomitable and relentless midfield setup with Tigana and Matthäus is going to act as the transitional platform for both offense and defense.
Portugal were hanging on for penalties but still the French came forward. Jean Tigana had been a constant thorn in the side of the Portugal and made one last foray forward.

In the 119th minute Tigana had a pass blocked but immediately won it back and emptied his lungs to take the ball to the byline. Having just played nearly 120 minutes it is astonishing where Tigana found the energy to provide a cut back that eluded an onrushing Bento and fell to Platini on the edge of the six-yard box. With three defenders and a recovering Bento on the line the unflappable holder of the Ballon d’Or coolly rifled the winner home with a rising shot.

In five breathtaking minutes France had gone from the verge of being knocked out to finalists. The French reveled in their victory and went on to win the tournament final in Paris 2-0 against Spain.
Link.
European Footballer of the Year ("Ballon d'Or")

1984

1. Michel PLATINI (Juventus) (France) 128
2. Jean Tigana (Girondins Bordeaux) (France) 57
3. Preben Elkjær-Larsen (Hellas Verona) (Denmark) 48
4. Ian Rush (Liverpool) (Wales) 44
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/europa-poy.html
 

idmanager

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This is really tough to choose. 4 of my favorite players out wide in really good setups.

Matthaus or Van Basten is going to decide this IMO.

I am sure if either of the managers were asked to choose the player they would pick from the opponent, it would be these two.
 

harms

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That is very hard to choose a winner here. From the first glance it looks like Invictus has a slight edge, but the difference is marginal. Vierchowod is one of the best fits for Van Basten if you can even say that there is a good fit for him. Plus I really like and rate Krankl, such a brilliant forward.
 

Invictus

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@Invictus can you tell me more about Chagas? how will he cope with Boniek..
I'd say he's going to cope even though he was an attacking fullback. Unlike say Roberto Carlos (who was GOAT tier in offense but several tiers below that in defense), Marinho was quite balanced in both phases of the game. It's a bit of a pity that he hasn't been utilized more often in drafts because he's considered to be Brazil's left-back of the '70s decade, and is rated quite well from an all-round standpoint. e.g. this is oneniltothearsenal's post from the past:
Ah that's fair, I didn't think would Moby pick Junior later for CM role either. Thought he was trying a different tactic than what he used. Felipe Luis is probably more solid defensively but Marinho was definitely attacking enough though and probably the best balance. Its tough with Brazil as you have a wealth of options mostly everywhere except really for CB and defensively sound FB - after Santos'.
I guess since Brazil has such a wealth of options with Nilton Santos, Roberto Carlos, Júnior - Marinho is often overlooked in an all-time context for ex-Seleção players.

Wrt. Boniek (who was more of a floater that came inwards than someone who will hug the flanks), Marinho should be quite effective (compared to pure wingers) because he tucked into midfield and central-ish areas in both offense and defense à la Júnior:
Also Marinho DID tuck into midfield while he goes forward that is exactly why I picked him!
A bit more on him:

2nd in the South American Footballer of the Year awards when the continent had the likes of Zico, Falcão, Figueroa, Kempes, Ancheta, Leão (among others - and yes, some weren't at their peak, but still a special achievement to finish behind only Figueroa).



He was a skillful and innovative left back who was considered at the time one of the top players at his position. He was a complete player who was strong on defense but also enjoyed joining the attack and did so very effectively, and is considered a pioneer, becoming very influential in helping the left back position evolve into what it is in today's Brazilian football.
 

Invictus

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Plus I really like and rate Krankl, such a brilliant forward.
Yep, Krankl was quite brilliant in his own right, albeit slightly underrated. Probably because he spent so much time in Wien, but then again, he did score 36 goals in 40 games for Barcelona at his peak to prove his major league credentials. Anyway, since he's been mentioned, a bit more on him:

HANS KRANKL

Krankl in the legendary Córdoba performance vs. World Cup holders West Germany featuring the likes of Vogts, Rummenigge, Dietz, Maier, Bonhof, Kaltz:

(Credit @harms) :cool:

[Krankl] is in the box. He shoots! Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal! I am going bonkers! Krankl has scored. It is 3–2 for Austria! Ladies and gentlemen, we are hugging each other here, Rippel, my colleague, graduate engineer Posch, we're kissing each other ... 3–2 for Austria, by our Krankl's magnificent goal. He beat all of them. And just wait a minute, wait a minute and perhaps we can pour ourselves a small glass of wine. That's something you have to have seen. I'm standing up now, the South American [crowd]. I think we have beat them!

Ballon d'Or Silver Ball: 1978
IOC European Footballer of the Season: 1978–79
European Golden Shoe: 1978
Pichichi Trophy: 1979
Austrian Player of the Year: 1973, 1974, 1977, 1982, 1988
Austrian Bundesliga Top Goalscorer: 1974, 1977, 1978, 1983

Great article on him via thesefootballtimes - quite a cult figure in both Austria and at Barcelona:

HANS KRANKL: RAPID LEGEND, BARCELONA CULT HERO AND ONE OF AUSTRIA’S GREATEST

Some pieces of commentary end up becoming part of football folklore. Fans of the Norway national team still remember with fondness Bjørge Lillelien’s hysterical “Maggie Thatcher … your boys took a hell of a beating” playing in the background as the minnows upstaged England in a World Cup qualifier in 1981. Few Liverpool fans are unaware of David Coleman’s sardonic summarization of the Newcastle defence – “They were absolutely stripped naked!” – when Kevin Keegan scored his second goal in 1974 FA Cup final.

For Austrians, this moment came courtesy of Eduard ‘Edi’ Finger on 21st June 1978 as they tuned in to follow their country square off against West Germany on a sunlit day at the Estadio Olímpico Chateau Carreras.

The scoreboard read 2-2, the clock 87 minutes. German defender Rolf Ruessmann misses flight of a crossfield ball from the right-wing and it falls to the Austrian number 9 hovering near the touchline. The striker nods the ball forward, going past an off-balance Ruessmann and darting into the penalty box.

Once inside, he takes his second touch, leaving Manfred Kaltz sprawling on the floor. Seeing impending danger, Sepp Maier comes off the line; the striker can sense Ruessmann closing in from behind and Bernard Dietz rushing in from his right. Almost nonchalantly, the striker uses his left foot to stroke the ball past Maier into the net. On the mic, Finger was “going crazy”.

His commentary has become a stuff of legend: “[Krankl] is in the box. He shoots! Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal! I am going crazy! Krankl has scored. It is 3–2 for Austria! Ladies and gentlemen, we are hugging each other here, Rippel, my colleague, graduate engineer Posch, we’re kissing each other … 3–2 for Austria, by our Krankl’s magnificent goal.”

In Austria they still call this match ‘The Miracle of Córdoba’. It was possible because of the brilliance of the Austrian striker, Hans Krankl. Had this been his lone moment of glory, Krankl’s name would still have been written in golden letters in Austrian football history, such was the magnitude of this result. However, it wasn’t the only moment of greatness in a career that saw the striker become one of the prolific goalscores of his generation.

Johann Krankl was born on Valentine’s day in 1953. His father was a youth coach at KSV Tramway and under him, a young Hans picked up his rudimentary lessons of the game. By the time he turned 12, he was spotted by a scout of Austrian giants Rapid Wien and joined their youth team. It was the start of a long and fruitful relationship.

Years later, Krankl would credit two of his youth level coaches for helping to develop his game – Sepp Petschanka and Robert Korner. The latter was a club legend having played for Rapid for 16 years and was an important part of the Austrian team that earned a podium finish at the 1954 World Cup.

Krankl continued his steady progress through Rapid’s youth ranks and was deemed a special enough talent to get a run with the senior team even before he turned 18. Gerhard Springer, the Rapid coach at that time, gave Krankl his senior league debut in March 1971 – the youngster stayed on the pitch for 90 minutes in a narrow 1-0 home win over WSG Wattens. Krankl played a few more games that season but was still considered too raw to regularly feature for the senior team. In order to aid his development, Rapid sent him on loan to Wiener AC in Austrian second division.

In the Regionalliga Ost, Krankl exploded, notching up his first prolific season. He scored 27 goals in just 26 matches, helping WAC to score 58 goals, the best in their division. The highlight of his season came during a 9-2 thrashing of SC Hinteregger when the young Austrian registered eight goals to his name.

The season’s end saw a change in Rapid’s coaching chair and new manager Arnošt Hložek was keen on making full use of his young prospect. In September 1972 Krankl scored his first league goal for Rapid during a 6-0 drubbing of Wiener SC. By the time the 1972/73 season had ended, he had repaid in full the faith showed by Hložek, finishing as top scorer with 14 goals. His performances in the league also saw him win a first national team call-up, for a friendly against world champions Brazil.

Krankl continued his rich vein of goalscoring form in 1973/74, picking up his first top scorer medal with a staggering 36 goals in 32 matches. His tally remarkably included six hat-tricks, the peak of which was a four-goal haul in the Vienna derby. Amidst his domestic exploits, he also opened his account for Austria, drawing first blood in an eventual 1-1 draw against a Dutch team which was on its way to wowing spectators in World Cup. The next two seasons were modest in comparison, though he finished as Rapid’s top scorer in each, tallying 37 goals in 68 matches.

The 1976/77 season saw the Austrian striker back to his prolific best as he once again finished as the country’s top scorer with 32 goals. His and Rapid’s best game that season came on the last day during a historic result against Grazer AK. Playing in front of a few thousand people in the newly opened Weststadion, Rapid plundered 11 goals past their hapless opponents, Krankl bagged seven of them, both league records to date. Staggeringly, three of his goals came in a span of just four second-half minutes. It was just a sign of things to come.

Even by the standards of Hans Krankl’s ridiculously goal-laden career, the 1977/78 season was a freak of nature. He struck six hat-tricks and banged in an astounding 41 goals in 36 league matches. His tally was good enough to earn him the European Golden Boot, making him the first Austrian player to receive this honour. In peak form and about to enter the most productive phase of his career, Hans Krankl was ready for the biggest stage of them all: the 1978 World Cup.

With a talented group of players at their disposal, the Austrian national team had made short work of a tricky qualification group to reach their first World Cup since 1958. Krankl had duly paid his part, scoring a double hat-trick against minnows Malta.

When the group stages were drawn, few expected Austria to do well in the tournament as they were paired with Sweden, Spain and a Brazil team that boasted Zico, Rivellino and Toninho Cerezo. Austria began their campaign on 3 June, the underdogs against a Spanish side mentored by László Kubalaand stacked with stars from Real Madrid and Barcelona.



Read | The great refugee: how László Kubala became a Barcelona legend

The Spaniards were left stunned after just 10 minutes as Walter Schachner struck a fantastic individual goal to put Austria one up. Eleven minutes later Spain drew level thanks to a deflected effort from Daniel Ruiz. Austria, however, were destined to have the last laugh as Krankl displayed his poaching instincts to score the match-winner with 12 minutes left on the clock.

Four days later he converted a first-half penalty to seal a 1-0 victory over Sweden. With a game still left to play, the unfancied Austrians had not only qualified but they had also won their group; losing to Brazil in final group game didn’t make any difference.

In the second group stage they were sadly out of their depth, pummeled 5-1 by Ernst Happel’sNetherlands narrowly by Italy. When Austria lined up against defending world champions West Germany in Córdoba they were already knocked out, but the Germans were still in with a chance to reach their second consecutive World Cup final and were locked in a fascinating three-way battle with the Italians and Dutch, who were playing each other.

Even though the Germans had played poorly in the tournament, many back home believed that they had enough firepower to pick up a substantial victory, which would guarantee a place in the final.

The Germans sang to the script as Karl-Heinz Rummenigge initiated and finished a smooth one-two to put his team ahead in the 19th minute. Despite the early setback, the Austrians held strong and there were no more goals in first half. Around the hour mark, Berti Vogts tried to shield from Krankl a cross from the right wing and managed to put the ball into his own net. Seven minutes later, the world was in shock.

Eduard Krieger swung in a cross; Krankl received it and then swung his left foot like an emphatic hammer blow. Sepp Meier, the reigning German Footballer of the Year could do nothing. “A magnificent goal,” beamed the BBC commentator. There was only one way the Germans could respond and they made it 2-2 in the 68th minute with a set-piece goal.

With just three minutes left on the clock, Krankl scored the third and completed the victory. This was Austria’s first win over West Germany in almost half a century. The players had upset all the odds and knocked out one of football’s powerhouses. All along, Hans Krankl had played a key role in it.

They returned home to a hero’s welcome. Krankl’s outstanding performance in the World Cup saw him come tantalisingly close to winning Ballon d’Or in 1978, finishing just six points behind eventual winner Kevin Keegan.

Thanks to his European Golden Boot and exploits in the World Cup, Krankl soon became a sought-after player across Europe. Valencia were the initial favourites to bag his signature and their fans were looking forward to a lip smacking partnership between Krankl and 1978 World Cup top scorer, Mario Kempes. The transfer saga would then take a u-turn as a new player entered the race.

Johan Cruyff had decided to bring the curtain down on his legendary Barcelona stint in 1978. Newly elected president Josep Lluís Núñez and new coach Lucien Muller had the unenviable job to replace a talismanic player who had defined the way Barcelona played in the previous five seasons. The rumours linked names such as Kevin Keegan and Paolo Rossi, but Krankl’s grand show in the World Cup meant he was the man Barça wanted.

Despite his prolific track record, the Barcelona management were taking a significant risk in signing Krankl. His goals had come in one of Europe’s unheralded leagues and he was a different player from Cruyff. While Cruyff thrived in a free role and hovered in the space between midfield and attack, Krankl was a pure fox in the box.

He was a finisher par excellence, with superb predatory instincts and an extremely strong left foot. At a shade under six foot, Krankl was strong in the air and had a sudden burst of speed that lethally combined with his intelligent movement. With short hair and an awkward moustache, he even looked different from Cruyff with his Jagger-esque swagger.

The Austrian could have easily wilted under the pressure of a big club but he was made of sterner stuff. It took him just two matches to get off the mark in the league, intriguingly against Valencia as he cancelled out Kempes’ opener in a 2-1 victory.

In November he scored his first hat-trick for Barcelona in a 6-0 thrashing of Celta and followed it up with three more hat-tricks that season. His best performance came in January 1979 as he smashed five goals in a 9-0 win over Rayo Vallecano. He also opened his account in El Clásico, scoring once at Camp Nou to seal a 2-0 win. The drastic change of scenery had not impacted upon Krankl’s form; he maintained an almost similar record to that in Austria and finished his first La Liga season as top scorer with 29 goals in 30 matches.

Despite Krankl’s exploits, Barcelona’s league form was inconsistent. They were also knocked out by Valencia in Copa del Rey and this prompted the club’s administration to part ways with Muller. The Catalans’ only hopes of salvaging their season hinged on the Cup Winners’ Cup.

The Blaugrana began their campaign with a comfortable 4-1 aggregate triumph over Shakhtar Donetsk, with Krankl scoring in both legs. Waiting for them in the second round were defending champions Anderlecht. Coached by Raymond Goethals, who would later go on to become a European champion with Marseille, the Belgian side were one of the top dogs in the competition and boasted talents such as Rob Rensenbrink, Arie Haan and Frank Vercauteren. They laid bare Barcelona’s defensive frailties in the first leg, dishing out a dominant 3-0 win.




Read | When Anderlecht and Club Brugge were amongst the kings of Europe


The Spaniards needed a mini miracle to save the tie and 100,000 people crammed into the Camp Nou in return leg, hoping for one. They needed a strong start and Krankl provided just that, cutting back from the left wing and dragging two opponent defenders away before unleashing a rasping drive from an almost impossible angle. Another beautiful goal from Juan Heredia ensured that Barcelona went into half-time 2-0 up and smelling blood.

They continued to assault Anderlecht in the second half and levelled the tie just three minutes from time when Rafael Zuviría finished off an impressive counter-attack. The Belgians held out in extra time but could not handle the pressure of a full Camp Nou in the penalty shootout, missing twice and handing Barcelona one of European football’s greatest comeback. After scoring the important first goal of the return leg, Krankl also successfully converted the first penalty in the shootout.

Bobby Robson’s plucky Ipswich Town came extremely close to knocking them out in quarters after a 2-1 win in England. However, the away goal made a difference as the Catalans eked out a nervous 1-0 home victory. Surprise semi-finalists KSK Beveren was dispatched with two 1-0 wins, Krankl scoring in the away leg to help Barcelona reach their first European final in 10 years.

While rest of his teammates geared up for the final, Krankl’s life took a sudden turn. On 5 May 1979, he was sent off during an ill-tempered Catalan derby. While returning from the match. Krankl’s car crashed into another car. Initially it looked like Hans and his wife Inge were unharmed, but both were rushed to a hospital by Barcelona vice-president Joan Gaspert. In the hospital, Hans learned that his wife had suffered severe liver damage and needed a blood transfusion to survive. As requests for blood donors spread through the media, Barcelona fans arrived in hordes and his wife was eventually saved.

As his wife recovered, Krankl took some time off from football, but after just 11 days he was back on the pitch in Basel, playing the Cup Winners’ Cup final against Fortuna Dusseldorf. Out of practice and still not mentally at ease, the Austrian looked out of sorts in an epic final.

Barcelona’s defence struggled to handle the firepower of Wolfgang Seele and Allofs brothers, Thomas and Klaus, as normal time ended 2-2. In extra-time Carles Rexach made it 3-2 for Barcelona. Seven minutes later, Francisco Carrasco opened the Fortuna defence like a can of tuna and found Krankl free in the box. He took two touches before calmly slotting the ball away for Barcelona’s fourth goal. With Fortuna scoring one more, it was the fourth goal that made all the difference and sealed Barça’s title.

The following season, the Barcelona squad went through an upheaval. Fan favourite Johan Neeskenswas replaced by 1977 Ballon d’Or winner Allan Simonsen. Krankl started the campaign poorly and scored just twice in the first half of the league season. To make matters worse, he clashed with manager Rifé, who was a strict disciplinarian.

As a result, mere months after he finished as club top scorer, Hans Krankl was put up for a loan deal in the winter window. Rapid president Heinz Holzbach was initially interested in bringing Krankl back but when he failed to gather funds, the striker signed for First Vienna FC. Barcelona brought in Brazilian Roberto Dinamite, a striker who scored bundles of goals for Vasco Da Gama.

The contrast was evident from almost the first match. Symbolically Krankl scored the only goal in an away win against Rapid to show the management what they had missed out on. He found the net eight times in his first six matches and eventually ended the season with 13 goals from 17 matches. Dinamite, on the other hand, struggled to settle and could manage only two league goals and soon left the club. Rifé was replaced by Helenio Herrera, followed by Kubala, and Krankl was once again brought back to Camp Nou.

The 1980/81 season was tumultuous for both Krankl and Barça. Now playing alongside Quini, a goal poacher in a similar mould, the Austrian struggled to get going. Poor results meant Kubala was sacked and Herrera again came back as coach. The Argentine preferred a more conservative system and opted to sign midfield maestro Bernd Schuster, sacrificing Krankl to free up a foreigner slot.

The Austrian striker had scored 45 goals in 60 matches for Barcelona, a fantastic record by any scale. Unfortunately for him, constant chopping and changing of coaches meant his Barcelona career didn’t go on as long as it should have. Dismayed by the little shelf life given by big European clubs, Krankl rejected other offers to return back to his spiritual home of Rapid Vienna.

Despite Krankl’s bounty of goals in his first stint, Rapid had not managed to win much silverware, something that Hans wanted to change as a veteran. He was soon joined by quality players like Antonín Panenka, Zlatko Kranjčar and Anatoli Zinchenko. Together they would end a 24-year barren spell for the Vienna giants and lift the league title in 1981.

The following season was even better as Rapid finished level on points with rivals Austria Vienna but clinched the league title on goal difference – Krankl finishing as top scorer. Rapid also completed their first double in years after beating Wacker in the final of Austrian Cup. Well into his 30s now, Krankl had not slowed down and managed to score 151 goals in his six seasons with Rapid in 1980s.

Krankl came close to winning another European title in 1985 when Rapid made their way to the Cup Winners’ Cup final. He scored three goals en route as Die Grün-Weißen dispatched Beşiktaş, Celtic, Dynamo Dresden and Dynamo Moscow to set up a final against Howard Kendall’s brilliant Everton side. The soon-to-be English champions proved a class apart and raced to a 2-0 lead in the second half. Krankl pulled a goal back in the 85th minute but could do little to prevent a 3-1 loss.

The following season Krankl made his final farewell to Rapid after falling out with the management regarding a training camp in Tajikistan. He retired after spending two seasons with Wiener Sport-Club (40 goals in 60 matches) and then a final season with Austria Salzburg (later to be rechristened Red Bull). In Salzburg, the 36-year-old striker executed a flying scissor kick which would win him goal of the year award, his last piece of brilliance.

Hans Krankl created several records as a player, some of which still stand today. He is Rapid’s all-time top scorer in the league with 217 goals in 284 matches, and the Austrian Bundesliga’s all-time top scorer with 270 goals in 361 matches. With 20 goals, he is the second highest scorer in the history of Vienna derby. When he retired he was the leading scorer for his national team, a record which was later bettered by Toni Polster. His 33 Cup Winners’ Cup matches yielded 17 goals, making him fifth highest scorer in the history of the now defunct competition.

Along with his records, Krankl was also a fan favourite. This was evident when Rapid fans selected him as one of the players in Rapid’s all-star team of the 20th century. Even Barça TV would later pay him respect, publishing a documentary titled Johann From Austria. Krankl is still remembered fondly by the Barcelona faithful even though he effectively played just one full season with them
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
This is really tough to choose. 4 of my favorite players out wide in really good setups.

Matthaus or Van Basten is going to decide this IMO.

I am sure if either of the managers were asked to choose the player they would pick from the opponent, it would be these two.
Bearing in mind the no mates rule it would be Best I'd plunder from Invictus. I was one pick away from having the chance to pick Best in the reinforcements too, although I like to think sanity would have prevailed and I'd have picked Passarella anyway as strengthening my central defence was my number one priority.
 

idmanager

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Bearing in mind the no mates rule it would be Best I'd plunder from Invictus. I was one pick away from having the chance to pick Best in the reinforcements too, although I like to think sanity would have prevailed and I'd have picked Passarella anyway as strengthening my central defence was my number one priority.
Meant in general, without the no mates rule in mind.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Yep, Krankl was quite brilliant in his own right, albeit slightly underrated. Probably because he spent so much time in Wien, but then again, he did score 36 goals in 40 games for Barcelona at his peak to prove his major league credentials. Anyway, since he's been mentioned, a bit more on him:

HANS KRANKL

Krankl in the legendary Córdoba performance vs. World Cup holders West Germany featuring the likes of Vogts, Rummenigge, Dietz, Maier, Bonhof, Kaltz:

(Credit @harms) :cool:




Ballon d'Or Silver Ball: 1978
IOC European Footballer of the Season: 1978–79
European Golden Shoe: 1978
Pichichi Trophy: 1979
Austrian Player of the Year: 1973, 1974, 1977, 1982, 1988
Austrian Bundesliga Top Goalscorer: 1974, 1977, 1978, 1983

Great article on him via thesefootballtimes - quite a cult figure in both Austria and at Barcelona:

HANS KRANKL: RAPID LEGEND, BARCELONA CULT HERO AND ONE OF AUSTRIA’S GREATEST

Some pieces of commentary end up becoming part of football folklore. Fans of the Norway national team still remember with fondness Bjørge Lillelien’s hysterical “Maggie Thatcher … your boys took a hell of a beating” playing in the background as the minnows upstaged England in a World Cup qualifier in 1981. Few Liverpool fans are unaware of David Coleman’s sardonic summarization of the Newcastle defence – “They were absolutely stripped naked!” – when Kevin Keegan scored his second goal in 1974 FA Cup final.

For Austrians, this moment came courtesy of Eduard ‘Edi’ Finger on 21st June 1978 as they tuned in to follow their country square off against West Germany on a sunlit day at the Estadio Olímpico Chateau Carreras.

The scoreboard read 2-2, the clock 87 minutes. German defender Rolf Ruessmann misses flight of a crossfield ball from the right-wing and it falls to the Austrian number 9 hovering near the touchline. The striker nods the ball forward, going past an off-balance Ruessmann and darting into the penalty box.

Once inside, he takes his second touch, leaving Manfred Kaltz sprawling on the floor. Seeing impending danger, Sepp Maier comes off the line; the striker can sense Ruessmann closing in from behind and Bernard Dietz rushing in from his right. Almost nonchalantly, the striker uses his left foot to stroke the ball past Maier into the net. On the mic, Finger was “going crazy”.

His commentary has become a stuff of legend: “[Krankl] is in the box. He shoots! Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal! Goal! I am going crazy! Krankl has scored. It is 3–2 for Austria! Ladies and gentlemen, we are hugging each other here, Rippel, my colleague, graduate engineer Posch, we’re kissing each other … 3–2 for Austria, by our Krankl’s magnificent goal.”

In Austria they still call this match ‘The Miracle of Córdoba’. It was possible because of the brilliance of the Austrian striker, Hans Krankl. Had this been his lone moment of glory, Krankl’s name would still have been written in golden letters in Austrian football history, such was the magnitude of this result. However, it wasn’t the only moment of greatness in a career that saw the striker become one of the prolific goalscores of his generation.

Johann Krankl was born on Valentine’s day in 1953. His father was a youth coach at KSV Tramway and under him, a young Hans picked up his rudimentary lessons of the game. By the time he turned 12, he was spotted by a scout of Austrian giants Rapid Wien and joined their youth team. It was the start of a long and fruitful relationship.

Years later, Krankl would credit two of his youth level coaches for helping to develop his game – Sepp Petschanka and Robert Korner. The latter was a club legend having played for Rapid for 16 years and was an important part of the Austrian team that earned a podium finish at the 1954 World Cup.

Krankl continued his steady progress through Rapid’s youth ranks and was deemed a special enough talent to get a run with the senior team even before he turned 18. Gerhard Springer, the Rapid coach at that time, gave Krankl his senior league debut in March 1971 – the youngster stayed on the pitch for 90 minutes in a narrow 1-0 home win over WSG Wattens. Krankl played a few more games that season but was still considered too raw to regularly feature for the senior team. In order to aid his development, Rapid sent him on loan to Wiener AC in Austrian second division.

In the Regionalliga Ost, Krankl exploded, notching up his first prolific season. He scored 27 goals in just 26 matches, helping WAC to score 58 goals, the best in their division. The highlight of his season came during a 9-2 thrashing of SC Hinteregger when the young Austrian registered eight goals to his name.

The season’s end saw a change in Rapid’s coaching chair and new manager Arnošt Hložek was keen on making full use of his young prospect. In September 1972 Krankl scored his first league goal for Rapid during a 6-0 drubbing of Wiener SC. By the time the 1972/73 season had ended, he had repaid in full the faith showed by Hložek, finishing as top scorer with 14 goals. His performances in the league also saw him win a first national team call-up, for a friendly against world champions Brazil.

Krankl continued his rich vein of goalscoring form in 1973/74, picking up his first top scorer medal with a staggering 36 goals in 32 matches. His tally remarkably included six hat-tricks, the peak of which was a four-goal haul in the Vienna derby. Amidst his domestic exploits, he also opened his account for Austria, drawing first blood in an eventual 1-1 draw against a Dutch team which was on its way to wowing spectators in World Cup. The next two seasons were modest in comparison, though he finished as Rapid’s top scorer in each, tallying 37 goals in 68 matches.

The 1976/77 season saw the Austrian striker back to his prolific best as he once again finished as the country’s top scorer with 32 goals. His and Rapid’s best game that season came on the last day during a historic result against Grazer AK. Playing in front of a few thousand people in the newly opened Weststadion, Rapid plundered 11 goals past their hapless opponents, Krankl bagged seven of them, both league records to date. Staggeringly, three of his goals came in a span of just four second-half minutes. It was just a sign of things to come.

Even by the standards of Hans Krankl’s ridiculously goal-laden career, the 1977/78 season was a freak of nature. He struck six hat-tricks and banged in an astounding 41 goals in 36 league matches. His tally was good enough to earn him the European Golden Boot, making him the first Austrian player to receive this honour. In peak form and about to enter the most productive phase of his career, Hans Krankl was ready for the biggest stage of them all: the 1978 World Cup.

With a talented group of players at their disposal, the Austrian national team had made short work of a tricky qualification group to reach their first World Cup since 1958. Krankl had duly paid his part, scoring a double hat-trick against minnows Malta.

When the group stages were drawn, few expected Austria to do well in the tournament as they were paired with Sweden, Spain and a Brazil team that boasted Zico, Rivellino and Toninho Cerezo. Austria began their campaign on 3 June, the underdogs against a Spanish side mentored by László Kubalaand stacked with stars from Real Madrid and Barcelona.



Read | The great refugee: how László Kubala became a Barcelona legend

The Spaniards were left stunned after just 10 minutes as Walter Schachner struck a fantastic individual goal to put Austria one up. Eleven minutes later Spain drew level thanks to a deflected effort from Daniel Ruiz. Austria, however, were destined to have the last laugh as Krankl displayed his poaching instincts to score the match-winner with 12 minutes left on the clock.

Four days later he converted a first-half penalty to seal a 1-0 victory over Sweden. With a game still left to play, the unfancied Austrians had not only qualified but they had also won their group; losing to Brazil in final group game didn’t make any difference.

In the second group stage they were sadly out of their depth, pummeled 5-1 by Ernst Happel’sNetherlands narrowly by Italy. When Austria lined up against defending world champions West Germany in Córdoba they were already knocked out, but the Germans were still in with a chance to reach their second consecutive World Cup final and were locked in a fascinating three-way battle with the Italians and Dutch, who were playing each other.

Even though the Germans had played poorly in the tournament, many back home believed that they had enough firepower to pick up a substantial victory, which would guarantee a place in the final.

The Germans sang to the script as Karl-Heinz Rummenigge initiated and finished a smooth one-two to put his team ahead in the 19th minute. Despite the early setback, the Austrians held strong and there were no more goals in first half. Around the hour mark, Berti Vogts tried to shield from Krankl a cross from the right wing and managed to put the ball into his own net. Seven minutes later, the world was in shock.

Eduard Krieger swung in a cross; Krankl received it and then swung his left foot like an emphatic hammer blow. Sepp Meier, the reigning German Footballer of the Year could do nothing. “A magnificent goal,” beamed the BBC commentator. There was only one way the Germans could respond and they made it 2-2 in the 68th minute with a set-piece goal.

With just three minutes left on the clock, Krankl scored the third and completed the victory. This was Austria’s first win over West Germany in almost half a century. The players had upset all the odds and knocked out one of football’s powerhouses. All along, Hans Krankl had played a key role in it.

They returned home to a hero’s welcome. Krankl’s outstanding performance in the World Cup saw him come tantalisingly close to winning Ballon d’Or in 1978, finishing just six points behind eventual winner Kevin Keegan.

Thanks to his European Golden Boot and exploits in the World Cup, Krankl soon became a sought-after player across Europe. Valencia were the initial favourites to bag his signature and their fans were looking forward to a lip smacking partnership between Krankl and 1978 World Cup top scorer, Mario Kempes. The transfer saga would then take a u-turn as a new player entered the race.

Johan Cruyff had decided to bring the curtain down on his legendary Barcelona stint in 1978. Newly elected president Josep Lluís Núñez and new coach Lucien Muller had the unenviable job to replace a talismanic player who had defined the way Barcelona played in the previous five seasons. The rumours linked names such as Kevin Keegan and Paolo Rossi, but Krankl’s grand show in the World Cup meant he was the man Barça wanted.

Despite his prolific track record, the Barcelona management were taking a significant risk in signing Krankl. His goals had come in one of Europe’s unheralded leagues and he was a different player from Cruyff. While Cruyff thrived in a free role and hovered in the space between midfield and attack, Krankl was a pure fox in the box.

He was a finisher par excellence, with superb predatory instincts and an extremely strong left foot. At a shade under six foot, Krankl was strong in the air and had a sudden burst of speed that lethally combined with his intelligent movement. With short hair and an awkward moustache, he even looked different from Cruyff with his Jagger-esque swagger.

The Austrian could have easily wilted under the pressure of a big club but he was made of sterner stuff. It took him just two matches to get off the mark in the league, intriguingly against Valencia as he cancelled out Kempes’ opener in a 2-1 victory.

In November he scored his first hat-trick for Barcelona in a 6-0 thrashing of Celta and followed it up with three more hat-tricks that season. His best performance came in January 1979 as he smashed five goals in a 9-0 win over Rayo Vallecano. He also opened his account in El Clásico, scoring once at Camp Nou to seal a 2-0 win. The drastic change of scenery had not impacted upon Krankl’s form; he maintained an almost similar record to that in Austria and finished his first La Liga season as top scorer with 29 goals in 30 matches.

Despite Krankl’s exploits, Barcelona’s league form was inconsistent. They were also knocked out by Valencia in Copa del Rey and this prompted the club’s administration to part ways with Muller. The Catalans’ only hopes of salvaging their season hinged on the Cup Winners’ Cup.

The Blaugrana began their campaign with a comfortable 4-1 aggregate triumph over Shakhtar Donetsk, with Krankl scoring in both legs. Waiting for them in the second round were defending champions Anderlecht. Coached by Raymond Goethals, who would later go on to become a European champion with Marseille, the Belgian side were one of the top dogs in the competition and boasted talents such as Rob Rensenbrink, Arie Haan and Frank Vercauteren. They laid bare Barcelona’s defensive frailties in the first leg, dishing out a dominant 3-0 win.




Read | When Anderlecht and Club Brugge were amongst the kings of Europe


The Spaniards needed a mini miracle to save the tie and 100,000 people crammed into the Camp Nou in return leg, hoping for one. They needed a strong start and Krankl provided just that, cutting back from the left wing and dragging two opponent defenders away before unleashing a rasping drive from an almost impossible angle. Another beautiful goal from Juan Heredia ensured that Barcelona went into half-time 2-0 up and smelling blood.

They continued to assault Anderlecht in the second half and levelled the tie just three minutes from time when Rafael Zuviría finished off an impressive counter-attack. The Belgians held out in extra time but could not handle the pressure of a full Camp Nou in the penalty shootout, missing twice and handing Barcelona one of European football’s greatest comeback. After scoring the important first goal of the return leg, Krankl also successfully converted the first penalty in the shootout.

Bobby Robson’s plucky Ipswich Town came extremely close to knocking them out in quarters after a 2-1 win in England. However, the away goal made a difference as the Catalans eked out a nervous 1-0 home victory. Surprise semi-finalists KSK Beveren was dispatched with two 1-0 wins, Krankl scoring in the away leg to help Barcelona reach their first European final in 10 years.

While rest of his teammates geared up for the final, Krankl’s life took a sudden turn. On 5 May 1979, he was sent off during an ill-tempered Catalan derby. While returning from the match. Krankl’s car crashed into another car. Initially it looked like Hans and his wife Inge were unharmed, but both were rushed to a hospital by Barcelona vice-president Joan Gaspert. In the hospital, Hans learned that his wife had suffered severe liver damage and needed a blood transfusion to survive. As requests for blood donors spread through the media, Barcelona fans arrived in hordes and his wife was eventually saved.

As his wife recovered, Krankl took some time off from football, but after just 11 days he was back on the pitch in Basel, playing the Cup Winners’ Cup final against Fortuna Dusseldorf. Out of practice and still not mentally at ease, the Austrian looked out of sorts in an epic final.

Barcelona’s defence struggled to handle the firepower of Wolfgang Seele and Allofs brothers, Thomas and Klaus, as normal time ended 2-2. In extra-time Carles Rexach made it 3-2 for Barcelona. Seven minutes later, Francisco Carrasco opened the Fortuna defence like a can of tuna and found Krankl free in the box. He took two touches before calmly slotting the ball away for Barcelona’s fourth goal. With Fortuna scoring one more, it was the fourth goal that made all the difference and sealed Barça’s title.

The following season, the Barcelona squad went through an upheaval. Fan favourite Johan Neeskenswas replaced by 1977 Ballon d’Or winner Allan Simonsen. Krankl started the campaign poorly and scored just twice in the first half of the league season. To make matters worse, he clashed with manager Rifé, who was a strict disciplinarian.

As a result, mere months after he finished as club top scorer, Hans Krankl was put up for a loan deal in the winter window. Rapid president Heinz Holzbach was initially interested in bringing Krankl back but when he failed to gather funds, the striker signed for First Vienna FC. Barcelona brought in Brazilian Roberto Dinamite, a striker who scored bundles of goals for Vasco Da Gama.

The contrast was evident from almost the first match. Symbolically Krankl scored the only goal in an away win against Rapid to show the management what they had missed out on. He found the net eight times in his first six matches and eventually ended the season with 13 goals from 17 matches. Dinamite, on the other hand, struggled to settle and could manage only two league goals and soon left the club. Rifé was replaced by Helenio Herrera, followed by Kubala, and Krankl was once again brought back to Camp Nou.

The 1980/81 season was tumultuous for both Krankl and Barça. Now playing alongside Quini, a goal poacher in a similar mould, the Austrian struggled to get going. Poor results meant Kubala was sacked and Herrera again came back as coach. The Argentine preferred a more conservative system and opted to sign midfield maestro Bernd Schuster, sacrificing Krankl to free up a foreigner slot.

The Austrian striker had scored 45 goals in 60 matches for Barcelona, a fantastic record by any scale. Unfortunately for him, constant chopping and changing of coaches meant his Barcelona career didn’t go on as long as it should have. Dismayed by the little shelf life given by big European clubs, Krankl rejected other offers to return back to his spiritual home of Rapid Vienna.

Despite Krankl’s bounty of goals in his first stint, Rapid had not managed to win much silverware, something that Hans wanted to change as a veteran. He was soon joined by quality players like Antonín Panenka, Zlatko Kranjčar and Anatoli Zinchenko. Together they would end a 24-year barren spell for the Vienna giants and lift the league title in 1981.

The following season was even better as Rapid finished level on points with rivals Austria Vienna but clinched the league title on goal difference – Krankl finishing as top scorer. Rapid also completed their first double in years after beating Wacker in the final of Austrian Cup. Well into his 30s now, Krankl had not slowed down and managed to score 151 goals in his six seasons with Rapid in 1980s.

Krankl came close to winning another European title in 1985 when Rapid made their way to the Cup Winners’ Cup final. He scored three goals en route as Die Grün-Weißen dispatched Beşiktaş, Celtic, Dynamo Dresden and Dynamo Moscow to set up a final against Howard Kendall’s brilliant Everton side. The soon-to-be English champions proved a class apart and raced to a 2-0 lead in the second half. Krankl pulled a goal back in the 85th minute but could do little to prevent a 3-1 loss.

The following season Krankl made his final farewell to Rapid after falling out with the management regarding a training camp in Tajikistan. He retired after spending two seasons with Wiener Sport-Club (40 goals in 60 matches) and then a final season with Austria Salzburg (later to be rechristened Red Bull). In Salzburg, the 36-year-old striker executed a flying scissor kick which would win him goal of the year award, his last piece of brilliance.

Hans Krankl created several records as a player, some of which still stand today. He is Rapid’s all-time top scorer in the league with 217 goals in 284 matches, and the Austrian Bundesliga’s all-time top scorer with 270 goals in 361 matches. With 20 goals, he is the second highest scorer in the history of Vienna derby. When he retired he was the leading scorer for his national team, a record which was later bettered by Toni Polster. His 33 Cup Winners’ Cup matches yielded 17 goals, making him fifth highest scorer in the history of the now defunct competition.

Along with his records, Krankl was also a fan favourite. This was evident when Rapid fans selected him as one of the players in Rapid’s all-star team of the 20th century. Even Barça TV would later pay him respect, publishing a documentary titled Johann From Austria. Krankl is still remembered fondly by the Barcelona faithful even though he effectively played just one full season with them
Pfft. A Krankle tribute without this masterpiece is no tribute at all:

 

Invictus

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Bearing in mind the no mates rule it would be Best I'd plunder from Invictus. I was one pick away from having the chance to pick Best in the reinforcements too, although I like to think sanity would have prevailed and I'd have picked Passarella anyway as strengthening my central defence was my number one priority.
Yep, Best would probably be the player I'd go for if I were in charge of your set of players as well. A good pick for almost any team in this format - Top 3 when it comes to not just ability, but him not blocking anyone of note - especially with the D.O.B. constraints that eliminate the likes of Charlton, Law, Jennings.
Pfft. A Krankle tribute without this masterpiece is no tribute at all:

Wut? :lol:
 

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You didn't know? He is/was also a performer, under an alias Johann K. Seriously.

Oh! Aye, I knew he was a musician of some note - just didn't put 2 and 2 together for that Batman video. :lol:
 

Raees

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I'd say he's going to cope even though he was an attacking fullback. Unlike say Roberto Carlos (who was GOAT tier in offense but several tiers below that in defense), Marinho was quite balanced in both phases of the game. It's a bit of a pity that he hasn't been utilized more often in drafts because he's considered to be Brazil's left-back of the '70s decade, and is rated quite well from an all-round standpoint. e.g. this is oneniltothearsenal's post from the past:

I guess since Brazil has such a wealth of options with Nilton Santos, Roberto Carlos, Júnior - Marinho is often overlooked in an all-time context for ex-Seleção players.

Wrt. Boniek (who was more of a floater that came inwards than someone who will hug the flanks), Marinho should be quite effective (compared to pure wingers) because he tucked into midfield and central-ish areas in both offense and defense à la Júnior:


A bit more on him:

2nd in the South American Footballer of the Year awards when the continent had the likes of Zico, Falcão, Figueroa, Kempes, Ancheta, Leão (among others - and yes, some weren't at their peak, but still a special achievement to finish behind only Figueroa).



Thanks bud.. Zico saying his dream team would have the defence from 1974 says it all. Another in a line of right footed left backs who were top tier.
 

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Now that we've covered the important business of Krankl's musical career, a few thoughts on the match itself.

1) Boniek vs Marinho: I don't think there's any glaring mismatches anywhere on the pitch but I'm confident Boniek would enjoy success here. From what I've seen and read Marinho was skillful on the ball, fairly athletic and strong in one on one duels, but I'm not sure if he's particularly well-suited to dealing with Boniek's electric pace and moreso his beguiling movement.




And a nice quote from Platini regarding his exceptional teamwork and ability to create space for his fellow attackers:

"Il capocannoniere del campionato sara' il giocatore che avra' come compagno boniek" -- Michel Platini
'The top scorer of the championship will be 'the player who' has Boniek as a team-mate'
2) Passarella: IMO he's slightly overlooked in our draft community. Ranked third in this "greatest sweepers of all time" list behind only Beckenbauer and Baresi, and ahead of the likes of Scirea and Figueroa, he's the best defender on the pitch here. Just to illustrate his standing in the game, here's his season ratings in Serie A versus those of Scirea. These are the aggregate of their individual match ratings across the season.

Passarella:



Scirea:



Given that he was the wrong side of 30 years old for most of his time in Italy whereas Scirea spent his whole career there, to achieve those sort of rankings reflects exceptionally well on Passarella.To be ranked as the best in his position once and 2nd best twice in such a strong league in only 6 seasons is impresive.

His leadership and sheer strength of character aren't to be underestimated either. While neither side is lacking in that regard, in Chilavert/Passarella/Breitner/Van Basten, I do have a particularly strong seam of mental toughness running through the spine of my team.
 

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IMO, if Marinho vs. Boniek is a mismatch in defensive terms, then so is Bezsonov vs. Džajić - and I say this as someone who rates both fullbacks in an all-time context. It's convenient commentary to highlight any Brazilian fullback not named Djalma Santos as a defensively suspect player, but Marinho was very capable in that department despite offering a lot of offensive flair.

e.g. This neutral source lists all four of the fullbacks at a similar level beyond the absolute elite:
24. Danny Mcgrain (Scotland)
25. Bixente Lizarazu (France)
26. Jose Antonio Camacho (Spain)
27. Victor Rodriguez Andrade (Uruguay)
28. Eddie Hapgood (England)
29. Jorginho (Brazil)
30. Eric Gerets (Belgium)
31. Marinho Chagas (Brazil)
32. Anatoliy Demyanenko (Soviet Union)
33. Maxime Bossis (France)
34. Tarcisio Burgnich (Italy)
35. Branko Stankovic (Yugoslavia)
36. Maicon Douglas (Brazil)
37. Rafael Gordillo (Spain)
38. Nelinho (Brazil)
39. Alfredo Foni (Italy)
40. Fahrudin Jusufi (Yugoslavia)
41. Joan Segarra (Spain)
42. Ray Wilson (England)
43. Carlos Sosa (Argentina)
44. Jimmy Armfield (England)
45. Ashley Cole (England)
46. Vladimir Bessonov (Soviet Union)
http://www.xtratime.org/forum/348-h...100-greatest-defensive-laterals-all-time.html

You could argue that the likes of Burgnich will definitely be towards the top from a defensive standpoint rather than at #34, and that's fair, but then Bezsonov was more of a wingback, too - and not renowned for his defensive capabilities against GOAT tier wingers - the kind he's up against here:


DRAGAN DŽAJIĆ: THE SERB LAUDED BY THE GAME’S BIGGEST LEGENDS

Illustration by Federico Manasse

On the wrong side of retirement, in the pained days of forced leisure, memories can often be the most prized possession for the ex-footballer, as well as for those who shared in their treasured careers.

Some are best remembered by the compliments paid to them by their fans, those who gladly parted with their hard earned wages, week after week, just to watch them play in the flesh. Some are reminisced over through the words of their coaches or managers, those privileged to have held within their ranks such unique and precocious talents. And then there are the few whose most telling eulogies come in the form of the words spoken by their rival players, those who warranted a depth of admiration that even the heat of competition couldn’t wither.

For Serbia’s Dragan Džajić, his country’s greatest ever footballing talent, the most memorable commendation came from none other than Pelé. “Džajić is the Balkan miracle – a real wizard,” said the legendary forward, after the two did battle in 1968, “I’m just sorry he’s not Brazilian because I’ve never seen such a natural footballer.”

It was with good reason the man widely regarded as the most talented footballer in history had become so enamoured by the performances of Dragan Džajić. It has been almost 40 years since Džajić played his last game – and 54 since he played his first – and still no player from his native Serbia has dazzled, deceived or delighted the world as effectively as he did with a ball at his feet.
https://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/08/25/dragan-dzajic-the-serb-lauded-by-the-games-biggest-legends/

UEFA Euro Top Scorer: 1968
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament: 1968, 1976
Ballon d'Or (3rd place): 1968
Golden Badge: 1969
World Soccer World XI: 1969
Best Sportsman of SD Crvena Zvezda: 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970
YU-Serbian UEFA Golden Player: 2004
FIFA XI: 1968



(Also by harms). :lol:
 

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Regarding the Passarella part of the post, I definitely agree that he's the best centerback on the pitch, but on a related note - Buchwald is the worst centerback on the pitch (not worst as in he was horrible, but that he was clearly worse than both Vierchowod and Blanc). And from a pure defensive standpoint, I'd readily back the duo of Blanc (also underrated in drafts) + Vierchowod, especially with Schmeichel (an adept and demonstrative organizer) behind them. More on the central defensive pairing:

Blanc + Desailly Vierchowod



The central defensive core takes inspiration from one of the greatest tandems in football history:
Desailly and Blanc formed the impenetrable backline of France that won the World Cup and Euro

The pair that formed the cornerstone of the unbelievable success of Les Blues just before and during the turn of the millennium, Marcel Desailly and Laurent Blanc were as formidable as any defensive duo has ever been. While the former was a defensive dynamite, running around with boundless energy and tackling like a ferocious pitbull, the latter – aptly nicknamed Le President – was a born leader, who gave the backline a calming effect. The duo was instrumental in the national team’s glorious triumphs at both the 1998 FIFA World Cup and the UEFA Euro 2000.
Laurent Blanc reprises his own role as someone who gave the backline a calming effect. And Vierchowod is the ideal partner for him considering his skillset as an unrelenting tackler and athletically supreme man-marker.
Pietro Vierchowod was the man once described as ‘an animal’ and the 'Hulk' by Diego Maradona - who considered him to be a ruthless foe in Serie A.

Asked who was his toughest opponent was Gary Lineker spoke of the defender: “Vierchowod. He was absolutely brutal and lightning quick.”
 

harms

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To be ranked as the best in his position once and 2nd best twice in such a strong league in only 6 seasons is impresive.
It's his ranking in his own team. Don't think that the comparison is appropriate though, especially since Passarella's rating is heavily influenced by the goals he scored. He should be noted as a possible goalscorer in this game though, no doubt.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Regarding the Passarella part of the post, I definitely agree that he's the best centerback on the pitch, but on a related note - Buchwald is the worst centerback on the pitch (not worst as in he was horrible, but that he was clearly worse than both Vierchowod and Blanc). And from a pure defensive standpoint, I'd readily back the duo of Blanc (also underrated in drafts) + Vierchowod, especially with Schmeichel (an adept and demonstrative organizer) behind them.
I rate Vierchowod but I don't see much between him and Buchwald. He's long been verging on Superman status in these drafts, and he was a fine, rugged stopper, but then so was Buchwald. I don't really like resorting to these lists too often, never mind twice in two posts, but as regards their relative standing in the game:


Summary of the top 100 courtesy of Peru Fc

100. RENQUIN, Michel (Bélgica)
99. ABELARDO (España)
98. RATCLIFFE, Kevin (Gales)
97. BUTCHER, Terry (Inglaterra)
96. BOSQUIER, Bernard (Francia)
95. RICARDO ROCHA (Brasil)
94. RAMZY, Hany (Egipto)
93. WALKER, Des (Inglaterra)
92. GALLAS, William (Francia)
91. QUINTANO, Alberto (Chile)
90. GUARNERI, Aristide (Italia)
89. COPPING, Wilf (Inglaterra)
88. SAMUEL, Walter (Argentina)
87. STEFANESCU, Costica (Rumania)
86. BOLI, Basile (Francia)
85. PIAZZA (Brasil)
84. DE AGOSTINI, Luigi (Italia)
83. WATSON, Dave (Inglaterra)
82. BRANSCH, Bernd (Alemania)
81. LEROND, André (Francia)
80. DIMITROV, Georgi (Bulgaria)
79. BRANDTS, Ernie (Holanda)
78. BENÍTEZ, Víctor (Perú)
77. TERRY, John (Inglaterra)
76. COLLOVATI, Fulvio (Italia)
75. GRIFFA, Jorge (Argentina)
74. NADAL, Miguel Ángel (España)
73. ORLANDO (Brasil)
72. MIGUELI (España)
71. EDINHO (Brasil)
70. WEBER, Wolfgang (Alemania)
69. COUTO, Fernando (Portugal)
68. PENVERNE, Armand (Francia)
67. VIERCHOWOD, Pietro (Italia)
66. NIELSEN, Ivan (Dinamarca)
65. KHIDIYATULLIN, Vagiz (Unión Soviética)
64. STOTZ, Karl (Austria)
63. BUCHWALD, Guido (Alemania)
62. SOLYMOSI, Ernö (Hungría)
61. HERBIN, Robert (Francia)
I think there's next to nothing in it, certainly less than between Passarella and Blanc (who I love and rate highly BTW). They're cut from a similar cloth stylistically too - both suffocating, uncompromising stoppers.

A quote regarding Buchwald from another England striker Alan Smith that somewhat echoes Lineker on Vierchowod:

In September 1991 a unified Germany came to Wembley for the first time since the collapse of the Berlin Wall.

As always, the England players involved knew it would not be easy, not when the likes of Lothar Matthäus, Stefan Effenberg and Andreas Brehme had lifted the World Cup only 14 months before, having seen off their old rivals in that Turin semi-final.

As it turned out, this friendly would haunt England’s centre-forward that night for several years to come. Put simply, I hardly got a kick thanks to the close attentions of Guido Buchwald, a monster of a man who followed me everywhere, refusing to grant one inch of space.

Following a 1-0 defeat, I seem to remember Graham Taylor, the England manager, being asked by the press about my contribution. I think he said something along the lines of being a bit disappointed. Not half as much as I was Graham! This match actually made me wonder if international football was one step too far.
And just as some measure of 'proof' that I'm not attempting to shit on Vierchowod just to play the game, an exchange I had with harms some time ago in a match where we were both neutrals:

Also, am I the only one that thinks that Vierchowod isn't one of the best stoppers in history? One of the best defenders of his time, surely. One of the quickest defenders ever? Yes. But overall I don't think that he belongs in GOAT bracket
Vierchowod was in his early 30s before I even got to watch Serie A so I'm far from an expert but before I'd ever encountered these drafts he never really jumped out as a top tier all-time great to me, whether that's fair or not. I kind of viewed him in the Ferrara/Montero bracket of being brilliant without ever standing out like a Baresi as being near-superhuman. Even in retrospect, I'm unconvinced that he was better than, say, Vidic, who I've got a gigantic chip on my shoulder about in fairness.
As regards the relative merits of our two goalkeepers, I'm unconvnced that there's ever been a better goalkeeper than Big Pete, so suffice to say that Chilavert is in a similar ball park. From the IFFHS' Century Elections:

World - Keeper of the Century
1.Lev Yashin (Soviet Union) 1002
2.Gordon Banks (England) 717
3.Dino Zoff (Italy) 661
4.Sepp Maier (Germany) 456
5.Ricardo Zamora (Spain) 443
6.José Luis Félix Chilavert(Paraguay) 373
7.Peter Schmeichel (Denmark) 291

8.Peter Shilton (England) 196
9.František Plánicka (Czechoslovakia) 194
10.Amadeo Raúl Carrizo (Argentina) 192
11.Gilmar dos Santos Neves(Brazil) 160
12.Ladislao Mazurkiewicz (Uruguay) 144
13.Patrick Jennings (N. Ireland) 132
14.Ubaldo Matildo Fillol (Argentina) 121
15.Antonio Carbajal (Mexico) 105
16.Jean-Marie Pfaff (Belgium) 95
17.Rinat Dasaev (Soviet Union) 89
18.Gyula Grosics (Hungary) 87
19.Thomas Ravelli (Sweden) 66
20.Walter Zenga (Italy) 62
And their Goalkeeper of the Year Award:

List of winners
YEAR WINNER COUNTRY CLUB

1987 Jean-Marie PFAFF Belgium Bayern München (Ger)
1988 Rinat DASAEV Soviet Union Spartak Moskva (USSR)
1989 Walter ZENGA Italy Inter Milan (Ita)
1990 Walter ZENGA Italy Inter Milan (Ita)
1991 Walter ZENGA Italy Inter Milan (Ita)
1992 Peter SCHMEICHEL Denmark Manchester United (Eng)
1993 Peter SCHMEICHEL Denmark Manchester United (Eng)

1994 Michel PREUD'HOMME Belgium K.V. Mechelen (Bel) / Benfica (Por)
1995 José Luis CHILAVERT Paraguay Vélez Sarsfield (Arg)
1996 Andreas KÖPKE Germany Eintracht Frankfurt (Ger) / Marseille (Fra)
1997 José Luis CHILAVERT Paraguay Vélez Sarsfield (Arg)
1998 José Luis CHILAVERT Paraguay Vélez Sarsfield (Arg)
 

Invictus

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Reckon one potential mismatch that needs to be highlighted is Matthäus vs Brady. From what I've gathered: Clodoaldo will mostly mind Hagi, and Tigana and Breitner will mostly cancel each other out given both players' defensive capabilities - but Brady was more of a cultured playmaker who did some defensive work, yes, but it was mostly pertaining to closing down in condensed spaces, good positional awareness, and so forth. Against a rampaging powerhouse like Matthäus, I'm not sure that approach will be effective.

Also, if Passarella advances to try and limit Lothar, that leaves Best mano-a-mano with Bossis - and a slight evasive move accompanied by a quick release from Matthäus could leave Best in dangerous positions at the edge of the box behind Bossis with a clear access to the goal:




Anyway, more on Matthäus:

Der Panzer - The King of Central Midfielders


Maradona on Lothar Matthäus in his autobiography: Matthäus was a fantastic footballer, a real complete footballer. He was definitely the best opponent I've had throughout my career, I just think this is enough to define it.

IFFHS World Player of the Century: #15
UEFA Euro Team of the Tournament: 1988
FIFA World Cup Silver Ball: 1990
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1990
Onze d'Or: 1990
Footballer of the Year in Germany: 1990, 1999
Goal of the Year in Germany: 1990, 1992
World Soccer Awards Player of the Year: 1990
IFFHS World’s Best Player: 1990
Bravo Otto – Bronze award: 1990
Ballon d'Or: 1990
FIFA World Player of the Year: 1991
FIFA XI: 1996, 1997, 2001
FIFA 100

Given that counterattacking potential of the team with Best and Džajić and Hagi, Lothar Matthäus is the box-to-box midfielder we had hoped for. An all-encompassing titan in the center of the pitch, you could argue that his ability from midfield in transitions was unparalleled. A few gifs to highlight that feature from the 1990 World Cup, as well as the completeness of his game (courtesy @Šjor Bepo):




















Lothar Herbert Matthäus was a gargantuan footballer. The term ‘complete player’ is frittered around too often, but Matthäus could rightly lay claim to that. Equally adept in his own penalty box as in the opposition’s, Matthäus was a box-to-box midfielder capable of scoring numerous types of goals in the air or with either foot. He was quick, powerful, elusive and technically supreme.

A set-piece expert, Matthäus was fearless and cold-blooded from the spot. He was also one of football’s inspirational leaders, a captain fronting others into battle. He was named German Player of the Year twice, the second award presented to him at the age of 38. As his physical attributes dwindled, his tactical nous allowed him to convert into an outstanding sweeper.
http://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/02/10/when-lothar-matthaus-went-to-inter/

Look at the way he slices through midfields - that's the kind of thing I was speaking of wrt. Brady.
 

Invictus

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Ooh, these are perfect for illustrating counters launched almost singlehandedly by Matthäus:





Ideally, a more gritty and physical customer who regularly keeps an eye on him (like say Souness - who could be a cnut when the occasion called for it) was needed here. Very good balance on the other side with Breitner on Tigana, though. I think they're very likely to cancel each other out since neither player surrendered an inch at his peak. :)
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Good post on Matthaus @Invictus . Brady is the first line of defence against him and for all Brady's graft and industry there's no denying that he's not a defensive specialist, and that thwarting Matthaus' surges will end up being a team effort.

That said, in such a heavyweight midfield battle I don't think the balance of your midfield is ideal. Tigana was an energetic and assiduous team player, but he was generally partnered with a DM. The French Magic Square midfield reached it's peak when the attack-minded Genghini was replaced with the defensive Luis Fernandez, and at his Bordeaux peak he seemed to have been paired up with a pure destroyer DM in Rene Girard. It's a given that Matthaus will plough through a tonne of defensive work, but even at his colossal peak this could take it's toll on his offensive contribution, for instance against England in 1990 where his struggles to keep tabs on Gazza led to a rather muted offensive contribution.

As regards Breitner and Tigana cancelling each other out offensively, personally I'd say that's a bit of a hopeful outlook. Tigana, for all his gifts, wasn't a regular goalscorer, whereas Breitner in his central midfielder pomp was prolific:


Tigana:



Breitner:



Breitner:



Breitner is a much more likely match winner here than Tigana, especially given that Tigana is playing with less proetection than he usually did.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Given that one of the best things about this draft for me has been picking Brady, I've largely neglected to mention him in both matches so far. To remedy that, two match compilations that are well worth a watch.


And one I made a few days ago that seems to have racked up a mammoth 3 views FFS :lol:


That second performance was against a USSR team containing the likes of Chivadze, Blokhin, Bezsonov, Demyanenko and Dasayev.

And a good article on his time at Juventus:

MANY YEARS AGO, I sat in an RTE production office as Jimmy Magee regaled me with a story about how, once upon a time, he was on a commentary assignment in Turin.

He touched down at the city’s airport and hailed a taxi. When he hopped in, there was the inevitable small talk. The driver asked where he was from and grew increasingly excited when Magee told him.

“Ireland! Ireland! Ah, Brady, no? Liam Brady?”

Magee told the driver that he was a sports journalist with Ireland’s national broadcaster and that Brady worked for them too.

The driver was stunned. For the rest of the car ride, Magee was painted a vivid picture of what it was like growing up as a Juventus fan in the 1980s. For the entire journey, the driver spoke incessantly about Brady, his remarkable left foot and the penalty in 1982.

When the car pulled up outside Magee’s hotel, he took out his wallet and handed the driver the fare.

“No,” he replied.

“A friend of Liam Brady’s is a friend of mine. And friends don’t pay”.

It was an insight into how revered Brady is in the city, despite only having played there for two years.

His time there, when usually recounted, centres on that remarkable Serie A finale some 35 years ago when Brady – having been informed he would be sold in the summer and be replaced by Michel Platini – stepped up 15 minutes from the end of a must-win game against Catanzaro and scored the decisive penalty.

“I looked over at [Giovanni] Trapattoni on the bench and he just nodded,” he later said.

There seemed a genuine concern Brady would miss on purpose, just to anger the Juve top brass. One final two-fingered salute to the suits who wanted him out.

“They made it out to be this wonderful professional effort on my part not to miss it purposely,” Brady said.


But why compromise an already-imperious legacy? Brady marked his territory early on, a wild departure from the usual well-worn tale of a misfiring import from Britain who struggled with homesickness and learning a new language before eventually returning home.

Going against type, Brady immersed himself in a new culture but didn’t lose himself in the process.

The relentless, legendary Juventus attacker Roberto Bettega tells the story about Brady’s debut in a pre-season friendly.

“Brady did something that was so unusual,” he said.

“When the referee rang the bell for us to assemble in the tunnel, Brady stood up and made a point of personally shaking hands with everyone. We Italians looked at each other. That was his way and it was great.”

The culture of Italian football was every man for himself, as Brady himself told Eamon Dunphy last year.

“I remember some of the players on our team – Gentile, Scirea, Cabrini – they’d say after the game, ‘Well, my man didn’t score’. They would feel that if their man didn’t score, they’d had a great game. They were focused on what they had to do.”

Brady enjoyed a superb debut campaign – something that’s often lost on those recalling his time in Turin.


“I’m remembered at Juventus as the guy who was so professional and all that but I’d like to be remembered for more than that. I played very well in my first year but my career at Juventus seems to centre around this penalty.”

The first year had many highlights.

There was a ferocious low-drive to the bottom corner in the local derby against Torino and there was a majestic individual performance in a clash with Inter, in which Brady scored one and assisted on another. Away to Bologna, he conjured a brace. In a vital game against Perugia, Brady tucked away a penalty to draw Juventus level before Domenico Marocchino grabbed a last-gasp winner. In total, he finished with eight top-flight goals and was Juve’s second-highest scorer. In his first season in Italy, he was a domestic champion.

Within six months, he had a decent steer on the language. Six months after that, he was fluent.

Everything had come together, quite seamlessly.

"It was easy, compared to the rough and tumble of English football and how hard it was. Italy was a doddle compared to playing against Liverpool and the likes of Jimmy Case and Tommy Smith. They’d body check you and pull your shirt (in Italy) but you weren’t looking at getting broken up.
I remember talking to John (Giles) before I went and he said, ‘You’ll be alright over there because you can beat a player. And then it’s going to open up for you and they’ll like you there for that’. And that’s what happened.”

While Brady’s second season wasn’t as much of a standout, he continued to contribute in crucial fixtures. There was another winner against Inter and another derby strike against Torino as Juve battled Fiorentina for the title.

And then the news broke three games before the end of the season. At the time, Italian teams were only allowed one non-Italian player. The day before the transfer deadline for foreign signings, whispers grew louder that Juve were about to sign Michel Platini from Saint-Etienne and that Brady would be sold.

“It was devastating for me to be told in that way,” Brady said.

“We’d just won the league and I had another year on my contract. It never entered my mind that they might say, ‘Look, we’re going to replace you’. It was a shock when I found out Platini was going to be signed. But, Gianni Agnelli, the owner, wanted Platini and Giampiero Boniperti – the club president – had to do what he was told.”

Brady’s solitary strike had just won the game for Juve against Inter. His stock had never been higher. But, there was very little he could do.


“Trapattoni was the coach then and I went to see him after training,” he told Dunphy.

“And I asked him and he said, ‘No, no, no’. But I knew he was telling lies. I could see by his face. He was in a difficult position. I went back home after training and I got a call to go into the club and I knew then that I was going to be told. Boniperti, in that typical Italian fashion, said, ‘Brokenhearted but…we’ve made this decision. If we could keep you we would. It’s a ridiculous rule that we can only have one or two foreigners’. So I said, ‘Stick it up your ass’”.

The Juve top brass were concerned that Brady would refuse to play. The Scudetto was on the line and they needed him. But he started the next game against Udinese and Juve won 5-1 away from home.

“I was never not going to play,” Brady said.

“I was only winding them up. I had too much respect for the guys I was playing with.”

Fittingly, the season went to the wire before Brady stepped up and delivered the club yet another championship.

But that hadn’t been the initial plan.

“We decided before the game that because of what had gone on I wasn’t going to take penalties anymore,” he said.

“It was going to be a centre-forward we had at the time – Pietro Virdis. But Trap had substituted him – he was off. So, when we got the penalty, there was a bit of looking around. ‘Who’s going to take it?’ And I said, ‘I’ll take it’. I’ve always taken penalties thinking, ‘I’m going to score this’. I was never nervous taking one. I never didn’t want to take one.”

Brady went on to stay in Italy for five more years and played for Sampdoria and then Inter before a short-lived stint with Ascoli.

But his immense contribution and impact on what was a phenomenal Juventus team during an illustrious period of Italian football should never be understated.

It’s testament enough to his talent that when the best team in the country could only sign one foreign player, they wanted Brady.

It’s testament to his legacy that when you tell a taxi driver in Turin that you’re Irish, chances are you won’t have to pay.

Epilogue

In February 2008, when a manager-less Republic of Ireland took on Brazil in an international friendly at Croke Park, I was sitting in the press box ahead of kick-off and chatting to a Brazilian journalist.

At one point, I excitedly asked him if the debonair gentleman in an immaculate dark-coloured overcoat sitting close by was Falcao, the legendary Brazilian and Roma midfielder and one of the stars of the 1982 World Cup.

My new friend told me it was and that Falcao was in Dublin covering the game for Brazilian television. As I stared, wide-eyed, I noticed Falcao call out to somebody who was walking past the commentary positions. Quickly, he was up and out of his seat and racing towards the aisle.

He hurried down the steps and threw his arms around someone. He came out of the embrace and put both hands on the other person’s shoulders, gripping him tightly.

It was Liam Brady.

The pair, at one stage the two finest foreign players in Serie A, spoke for a few moments, laughing, joking and cajoling. I watched Falcao as he returned to his seat, grinning from ear to ear.

And for a little while I thought of Brady – the man with the dour reputation – whose magic and sorcery on football fields across Italy a different lifetime ago continued to leave so many superstars weak at the knees.
 

Šjor Bepo

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You didn't know? He is/was also a performer, under an alias Johann K. Seriously.

Krankl and Prohaska together:
wow, didnt know that! Both are going on the shortlist for all future drafts.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Now that we've covered the important business of Krankl's musical career, a few thoughts on the match itself.
1) Boniek vs Marinho: I don't think there's any glaring mismatches anywhere on the pitch but I'm confident Boniek would enjoy success here. From what I've seen and read Marinho was skillful on the ball, fairly athletic and strong in one on one duels, but I'm not sure if he's particularly well-suited to dealing with Boniek's electric pace and moreso his beguiling movement.
Boniek vs. Marinho is not any more of a mismatch for me than either of your fullbacks against Best and Dzajic. Marinho was quick and all around fairly athletic so that matches up well with keeping tabs on Boniek's trickery. He also tracked back frequently even if he got beat so Boniek might slip past only to find Marinho still right there to hinder his movement. Marinho's attacking runs are also something that Boniek is going to have to think about. Overall I give Invictus the advantage on the flanks (Dzajic+Marinho > Boniek+Bessonov and Best+McGrain > Rensenbrink+Bossis) and don't think you want your full backs isolated much whereas your best route to goal imo is through Brady and Breitner's unpredictability.
Not sure about how well Bessonov will do whom I thought was known for his attacking runs than known for defensive stability?
 

Invictus

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That said, in such a heavyweight midfield battle I don't think the balance of your midfield is ideal. Tigana was an energetic and assiduous team player, but he was generally partnered with a DM. The French Magic Square midfield reached it's peak when the attack-minded Genghini was replaced with the defensive Luis Fernandez, and at his Bordeaux peak he seemed to have been paired up with a pure destroyer DM in Rene Girard. It's a given that Matthaus will plough through a tonne of defensive work, but even at his colossal peak this could take it's toll on his offensive contribution, for instance against England in 1990 where his struggles to keep tabs on Gazza led to a rather muted offensive contribution.
Tigana was primarily a top-notch defensive box-to-box player renowned for his defensive workrate, mate - up against a similar-ish box-to-box player with common shared characteristics with him - which was the thrust of the argument of them cancelling each other out. Wrt. Rene Girard, wasn't a pure destroyer - categorizing him as such would be erroneous, IMO. He was another box-to-box defensive midfielder who formed a double pivot of sorts with Tigana ahead of the defense. Even for France, Girard was frequently used when Tigana was rested or injured.

e.g.



I don't know what exactly this lad is saying :lol:, but he also mentions that Girard and Tigana played at the same plane...
Native of Vauvert in Gard, René Girard makes all his classes with Nîmes Olympique where it arrives at 19. After first matches at the time of the season 1974/1975, which sees the team failing the doors of Europe. With its beginnings, he plays offensive midfielder, but very quickly his tastes immoderate of the kneecaps and other ankles pushes it to go down from a notch.

Untiring barker, man with three lungs, Girard is the spearhead of a nice team, with Luizinho Da Silva, Gilbert Marguerite, Bernard Boissier… The years are followed and resemble each other with quiet seasons the heat in the soft belly.

With the edge of the 80s, René Girard joined the squad of Bordeaux. Involved by very young Aimé Jacquet, " les Girondins" are on the point of living one decade of glory and success which mainly puts back on a framework made up demiurges of poetry. In addition to René Girard, one counts Raymond Domenech, Jean-Christophe Thouvenel, Gernot Rohr. Besides this profile of breaker interests Michel Hidalgo who calls on the number 6 of Bordeaux running 1981… Thus the apprentice surgeon just integrates " les Bleus" in time to live the World Cup. He will take part in 5 matches. They will be his only selections, never again it will not go back there.

It's thus in Bordeaux that Girard forges a prize list and a reputation: 3 championships, 2 cups of France, 1 semi-final of C1… In the championship he's known like the white wolf and all the attackers of France and Navarre fear it. With Jean Tigana, he forms a pair of 6 of foreground. His defect and his direction of the trade enable him to get the upper hand, in particular on the young players. Thierry Pauk remembers besides its first match vis-a-vis Bordeaux. “On a free kick whistled against us I am in front of the balloon and René Girard arrives foot ahead on the tibia to take the balloon. However, René Girard, international and all. Me I was 18 years old, I began. Morally it's criticizable, in a certain way, he was right.” The dedication for this player of having will be to carry the capitanat at the time of the season of doubled (1986/1987), after the transfert of Giresse to Marseille. His trainer will say “It besides when he's not there that one measures at which point it is essential…. ” Homage which he will pay to his author: “I spent eight years fabulous over there, at the sides of a generation of extraordinary players who learned to me much and from a large trainer, Aimé Jacquet, who allowed me to open out…. ”

In 1988, it decides to go back to Nîmes for a last combat, to make go up the club. The task will take 3 years. The team fails 2 times consecutive in stoppings before finishing champion of Division 2. At 36 years, he hangs up again after a career filled well…
http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22307

:lol::lol:
 

Gio

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The quality of debate in here is very good lads, keep it up.

Re Buchwald/Vierchowod - I've got a lot of love for both. Mostly in the past because neither were typically highly rated, but they've been getting a fairer reception more recently - especially Vierchowod. Buchwald generally still a little under-rated, but he was uncompromisingly ruthless as well and rarely got caught out from my memory of him. Hugely impressed with his Italia '90 tournament it has to be said. I would have both in the same sort of class bracket with similar strengths.
24. Danny Mcgrain (Scotland)
25. Bixente Lizarazu (France)
26. Jose Antonio Camacho (Spain)
27. Victor Rodriguez Andrade (Uruguay)
28. Eddie Hapgood (England)
29. Jorginho (Brazil)
30. Eric Gerets (Belgium)
31. Marinho Chagas (Brazil)
32. Anatoliy Demyanenko (Soviet Union)
33. Maxime Bossis (France)
34. Tarcisio Burgnich (Italy)
35. Branko Stankovic (Yugoslavia)
36. Maicon Douglas (Brazil)
37. Rafael Gordillo (Spain)
38. Nelinho (Brazil)
39. Alfredo Foni (Italy)
40. Fahrudin Jusufi (Yugoslavia)
41. Joan Segarra (Spain)
42. Ray Wilson (England)
43. Carlos Sosa (Argentina)
44. Jimmy Armfield (England)
45. Ashley Cole (England)
46. Vladimir Bessonov (Soviet Union)
I think Bessonov is under-rated there. Cole too, they could easily drop those two into the 20s IMO. I rate Bossis as the best all-round full-back on the park and McGrain as the most effective no-frills defender.
 

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Good overall post highlighting Breitner's goalward contributions, @Pat_Mustard - he definitely had an edge in that particular department.

Another interesting matchup, however, is Hagi vs Clodoaldo. While researching for this match earlier in the day, I tried to find games where Clodoaldo capably marked top caliber #10 players when they were in full flow, and couldn't find any (maybe I didn't look hard enough). Might not have been a big issue against lesser #10s, but Hagi was exquisite at his peak:

Gheorghe Hagi: Maradona of the Carpathians


World Soccer Greatest Players of the 20th century: #25
1994 Ballon D'Or: 4th
1989 Ballon D'Or: 8th
1994 FIFA World Player of the Year: 4th
Romanian League: Top Scorer 1985, 1986
European Cup: Top Scorer 1987–88
Romanian Footballer of the Year: 1985, 1987, 1993, 1994, 1997, 1999, 2000
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1994
FIFA XI: 1998
UEFA Jubilee AwardsGreatest Romanian Footballer of the last 50 Years: 2003
FIFA 100: 2004

Nice article profiling his career via footballwhispers:

The nickname bestowed upon Romania’s legendary creative talent, Gheorghe Hagi, could not have been more fitting. Being labelled the ‘Maradona of the Carpathians’ was especially apt, for he was both an exceptional footballer and a player who had an extremely volatile temperament – inherently made him rather similar to his Argentine counterpart.

Born on 5 February 1965 in Săcele to parents of Macedonian descent, the signs of his love for the beautiful game were present from a young age. Despite his tough upbringing, his grandparents’ resourcefulness in making footballs out of pigs’ bladders and from cloths gave him the basic tools to develop his skills.

Coming through the ranks with Farul Constanta and Luceafarul Bucuresti afforded him the chance to hone his craft for a career in the professional game. Joining Sportul Studentesc represented a young Hagi with the opportunity to do just that at 18. But after four fantastic years at Sportul, Romanian giants, Steaua Bucharest, quickly snapped him up in a deal shrouded in controversy.

At the request of Valentin Ceausescu, whose father was the former Romanian dictator, Nicolae Ceausescu, Steaua bizarrely signed him on loan purely for the European Super Cup final in 1987. Hagi would go onto play a crucial role in Steaua’s 1-0 win over Dynamo Kyiv – scoring the winner.

Strangely, despite the contract being valid for the final only, Steaua refused to let him go back to Sportul after his magnificent performance. Sportul received nothing for their star student, and due to the nature of Steaua’s power brokers being people not to be messed with, Sportul were advised not to challenge the gross injustice.

Hagi, however, did not let the situation affect him and continued his remarkable upward trajectory. Over the course of his three years in the capital, spanning 1987 to 1990, the stocky playmaker dazzled domestically and abroad – his mesmerising passing and dribbling capabilities unlocking defences all over Europe.



Unsurprisingly, interest from the likes of Arrigo Sacchi’s AC Milan and Jupp Heynckes’ Bayern Munich arrived, but the communist government would not allow Romanian footballers to play for foreign clubs at the time.

This all changed in 1989, though, when Nicolae and Elena Ceausescu were executed for ‘crimes against the state’. While this has far-reaching ramifications for the Eastern European nation, in footballing terms it paved the way for the draconian ban to be lifted.

By the stage Hagi was ready and permitted to leave Steaua, he had racked up some outstanding achievements. Aside from scoring a tremendous 76 goals in 97 league matches, he had also won three league titles, two Romanian cups, that infamous European Super Cup and was an integral component of the team that reached the 1988/89 European Cup final.

The Steaua man was selected for the first of three World Cups as Romania made it through to the Round of 16 at Italia 90 – where Hagi played against Maradona and Argentina in the group stage. Romania famously went on to lose to the Republic of Ireland in a penalty shoot-out – David O’Leary the unlikely hero for the Boys In Green that day in Genoa.

Now 25, Hagi had no shortage of suitors after the World Cup, but Real Madrid eventually won the race for his signature, breaking their transfer record to secure his services for 400 million pesetas (approximately €2.3 million in today’s money). But a tumultuous two-year spell ensued for the little genius, with Los Merengues in a period of transition after winning the last five La Liga championships before his arrival.

The club’s unsatisfactory situation was illustrated by the fact Madrid went through three managers in his first season in Spain: John Toshack, Alfredo Di Stefano and Radomir Antic all taking up the hot seat.

Under Antic and then Leo Beenhakker in his second season, Hagi was much better, making a far greater impact – scoring 12 goals. But his struggles to fully settle and integrate into the squad, in combination with Los Blancos losing the title on the last day of the season, saw him keen to move on with two years remaining on his contract. “It’s hard to lose like that, but it made me understand that my destiny was not with Real,” he explained, adding bluntly, “I failed. Faced with all those superstars, I nearly shat my pants!”

It must be said that Hagi’s attitude towards his Madrid team-mates probably didn’t serve him overly well either during his time in the capital. “In the old days, we desperately wanted to beat these kind of players, because we were jealous of them,” recalled Hagi prior to joining Madrid.

“The way they stood there so casually in their new boots and modern football strips while we were wearing old bibs and worn-out slippers.”

Brescia surprisingly became his next destination, offering Hagi the lifeline he needed to rekindle his career. And he took his opportunity with the little Serie A side. With fellow Romanian, Mircea Lucescu, being the manager, this was undoubtedly a crucial deciding factor in his decision to move to Italy. Lucescu, who has now gone on to become a coaching legend, wanted to create a ‘Little Romania’ at Brescia, and also bought in Florin Raducioiu and Ioan Sabau to facilitate his plan.

While Hagi did produce some moments of utter magic in his first season, his questionable attitude also reared its ugly head on many occasions. Getting sent off on his debut was a prime example of this. The Lombardians just couldn’t find any consistency in their performances, much like Hagi, and they ended up suffering the indignity of relegation.

Despite this setback, Hagi chose to stay and vowed to help his team regain their Serie A status to show he was no coward. Playing a vital role in Brescia achieving an immediate return to the top-flight, courtesy of their third-place finish in Serie B, saw Hagi was vindicated for sticking with the Little Swallows. Importantly, Hagi put in some much better shifts on his way to scoring nine goals and setting up countless others.

However, his second campaign at the club certainly did attract more controversy. After coming back late from international duty he was dropped by Lucescu, while other disappointing acts like refusing to do scheduled interviews gave his club further sources of frustration. Hagi’s contentious behaviour led Lucescu to state: “He is a great player without a work ethic.

“He could be the best player in the world, after Maradona. If he changes his mindset, he could be one of the best players in the World Cup.”

Having been one of the stars of the 1994 World Cup – where Romania reached the quarter-finals – the mercurial talent then earned himself a move back to Spain.



This time it was the other giant of Spanish football, Barcelona, who paid £2 million for the now 29-year-old playmaker. Linking up with the likes of Romario and Hristo Stoichkov, fellow stars of USA 94, the Barca side was supposed to be a match made in heaven for Hagi.

However, he failed to reproduce his sublime World Cup form, bagging just seven goals in his 36 appearances for the Catalans – succumbing to infuriating injuries did not help his cause either.

His next move, though, worked out wonderfully well, as he enjoyed huge success at Galatasaray. During his time with the Lions, he was a driving force within the side that won a remarkable four consecutive league titles, took home the 1999/2000 UEFA Cup and defeated his old team Real Madrid in the 2000 UEFA Super Cup. Getting himself sent off in that triumphant UEFA Cup final against Arsenal for punching Tony Adams was, indeed, unadvisable but classic Hagi.

Propelling Gala to such great heights ensured his legendary status at the club will remain forever. Former French international, Luis Fernandez, said it best when he mused, “Hagi is like wine, the older he gets, the better he is.”

The adoring fans’ chant of ‘I Love You Hagi’ beautifully sums up their immense adulation for their star. After enjoying some of the best days of his career in the Turkish capital, and having notched up a sensational 59 goals in 132 appearances, Hagi announced his retirement from football in 2001.

A much storied career at club level was fascinating enough but his most resonating performances unequivocally came when representing his beloved national team. Since debuting in 1983, Hagi went on to amass 125 caps for Romania and net an impressive 35 goals.

Hi ingenuity and overall brilliance in propelling Romania’s golden generation to that quarter-final shoot-out loss to Sweden in 94 – for the record, Hagi scored his spot kick – is widely recognised as one of the finest individual efforts seen at any World Cup.

Having brushed aside Colombia and the USA in the group stages, a phenomenal victory over Argentina in the last 16 had followed – Hagi later summed up the latter by saying: “I’ve been told that the victory over Argentina was like a second Romanian revolution following the first one which toppled Ceausescu.

“We’re talking about the biggest win in the history of Romanian football.”



In the summer showpiece he was nigh on unstoppable, with his bamboozling dribbling ability, slick finishing powers and exquisite passing skills wreaking havoc. He also put his herculean strength in possession to great use, as his splendid form guaranteed his selection into the team of the tournament.

Giving his country 17 years of quality service cemented his legacy as Romania’s finest ever player. When asked on the public’s adoration of him, his response was a reserved one that demonstrated his discomfort about his legendary standing.

“I love everyone. And more important than love, I respect everyone. As for them to me, you’ll have to ask them. But at least I know my wife loves me, that’s enough for me.”

Even though the eight-time Romanian footballer of the year had his flaws, his mastery on the pitch is rightly what is be best remembered for. And for that, his legacy as one of the most unique, extraordinarily gifted characters is forever safe within the game’s rich tapestry.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I think Bessonov is under-rated there. Cole too, they could easily drop those two into the 20s IMO.
Easily? I don't know about that, that's quite a bold statement. Jorginho, Gerets and Kaltz from the 30s are just some that I think are quite appropriately rated above Bessonov, although admittedly the list maker has some much older full backs there that are going to be hard to rate.
 

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Easily? I don't know about that, that's quite a bold statement. Jorginho, Gerets and Kaltz from the 30s are just some that I think are quite appropriately rated above Bessonov, although admittedly the list maker has some much older full backs there that are going to be hard to rate.
Agree on Gerets and Kaltz. Not so sure about Jorginho, who I rate a lot for his attacking ability, but didn't always convince the other way.

Here's another list for what it's worth (feck all no doubt, these things are about as robust as the Palace back line)
25. Maxime Bossis (France)
26. Pietro Rava (Italy)
27. Danny Mcgrain (Scotland)
28. Branko Stankovic (Yugoslavia)
29. Manfred Kaltz (Germany)
30. Bixente Lizarazu (France)
31. Karl Sesta (Austria)
32. Jorginho (Brazil)
33. Alfredo Foni (Italy)
34. Tarcisio Burgnich (Italy)
35. Eric Gerets (Belgium)
36. Daniel Alves (Brazil)
37. Fahrudin Jusufi (Yugoslavia)
38. Rafael Gordillo (Spain)
39. Sergio Cervato (Italy)
40. Virginio Rosetta (Italy)
41. Leandro Ferreira (Brazil)
42. Nelinho (Brazil)
43. Joan Segarra (Spain)
44. Anatoliy Demyanenko (Soviet Union)
45. Jimmy Armfield (England)
46. Vladimir Bessonov (Soviet Union)
47. Marinho Chagas (Brazil)

48. Ricardo Pavoni (Uruguay)
49. Luis Eyzaguirre (Chile)
50. Eddie Hapgood (England)
Wouldn't argue too much with that one. As you say I'd probably take a few of the old-timers down a peg or two.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Boniek vs. Marinho is not any more of a mismatch for me than either of your fullbacks against Best and Dzajic. Marinho was quick and all around fairly athletic so that matches up well with keeping tabs on Boniek's trickery. He also tracked back frequently even if he got beat so Boniek might slip past only to find Marinho still right there to hinder his movement. Marinho's attacking runs are also something that Boniek is going to have to think about. Overall I give Invictus the advantage on the flanks (Dzajic+Marinho > Boniek+Bessonov and Best+McGrain > Rensenbrink+Bossis) and don't think you want your full backs isolated much whereas your best route to goal imo is through Brady and Breitner's unpredictability.
Not sure about how well Bessonov will do whom I thought was known for his attacking runs than known for defensive stability?
I did mention that Marinho seemed strong on one on ones so it was more Boniek's off the ball movement that I was hoping would pose him problems that he didn't typically encounter. Doing a bit more research on him, he does seem to have had a reputation for tactical indiscipline, a common enough and sometimes unfair criticism of attacking full backs, but one which might have had some merit in this case, as he seemingly got a punch or two from Brazil's goalkeeper for some shoddy defending against Poland

Google Translated Article:

Marinho Chagas was not very careful with the defensive part of the game of soccer. It was one of the first Brazilian sides to have that offensive momentum that Cafu and Roberto Carlos consecrated. It gained the nickname of "Avenida Marinho Chagas" of the commentator João Saldanha by the so much of space that granted to the adversary when it advanced to the attack. The former Botafogo coach also said in an interview with FatoseFotos magazine that he would only call him if he "wiped his hair" or "trimmed his bangs and wore a ponytail."

One of the most notorious cases of this tactical irresponsibility was in the decision of third place of the World Cup of 1974. By a tactical error of his, the Polish Grzegorz Lato made the goal of the victory of Poland. The disobedience of Marinho Chagas angered goalkeeper Émerson Leão, who, honestly, is also annoyed with anything. In an interview with SporTV, the coach said there was "very little" violence in the locker rooms after the game. He did not deny the exchange of blows, which is enough.

"He was unruly and uneducated at the answers when we called him to make a fixation on the left side. As it was the last game, he said that he was a 'show player'. We were not there to give a show, we were fulfilling a determination and representing a country. We lost because of it too. Inside the locker room, we disagree. Natural thing of two men who think differently, "he said.
The mistake in question:


Hardly the crime of the century to lose the ball carelessly, but it's easy to see why teammates would be annoyed with the casual attempt to recover his position, and it's something that a player like Boniek seems tailor-made to exploit. He seems to have drawn criticism for his performance against Holland from some people, which seems a little harsh but then his positioning didn't look perfect there either:

 

oneniltothearsenal

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Agree on Gerets and Kaltz. Not so sure about Jorginho, who I rate a lot for his attacking ability, but didn't always convince the other way.

Here's another list for what it's worth (feck all no doubt, these things are about as robust as the Palace back line)
25. Maxime Bossis (France)
26. Pietro Rava (Italy)
27. Danny Mcgrain (Scotland)
28. Branko Stankovic (Yugoslavia)
29. Manfred Kaltz (Germany)
30. Bixente Lizarazu (France)
31. Karl Sesta (Austria)
32. Jorginho (Brazil)
33. Alfredo Foni (Italy)
34. Tarcisio Burgnich (Italy)
35. Eric Gerets (Belgium)
36. Daniel Alves (Brazil)
37. Fahrudin Jusufi (Yugoslavia)
38. Rafael Gordillo (Spain)
39. Sergio Cervato (Italy)
40. Virginio Rosetta (Italy)
41. Leandro Ferreira (Brazil)
42. Nelinho (Brazil)
43. Joan Segarra (Spain)
44. Anatoliy Demyanenko (Soviet Union)
45. Jimmy Armfield (England)
46. Vladimir Bessonov (Soviet Union)
47. Marinho Chagas (Brazil)

48. Ricardo Pavoni (Uruguay)
49. Luis Eyzaguirre (Chile)
50. Eddie Hapgood (England)
Wouldn't argue too much with that one. As you say I'd probably take a few of the old-timers down a peg or two.
I haven't seen as much of Bessonov as perhaps you have, but from what I have seen the bold describes what I have seen of him perfectly.
And since we are doing lists here is another one (this one from a South American for the record). One thing I do notice is Marinho and Bessonov are mostly rated right near each other in all the lists so I think its fair to say a consensus view would have them about equal.

29. LIZARAZU, Bixente (Francia)
30. NELINHO (Manoel Rezende de Mattos Cabral) (Brasil)

31. WILSON, Ray (Inglaterra)
32. MAICON (Maicon Douglas Sisenando) (Brasil)
33. DANI ALVES (Daniel Alves da Silva) (Brasil)
34. DEMYANENKO, Anatoliy (Unión Soviética)
35. JORGINHO (Jorge de Amorim Campos) (Brasil)
36. GORDILLO, Rafael (España)
37. GAMBETTA, Schubert (Uruguay)
38. COLE, Ashley (Inglaterra)
39. CERVATO, Sergio (Italia)
40. ZAMBROTTA, Gianluca (Italia)

41. JUSUFI, Fahrudin (Yugoslavia)
42. STANKOVIC, Branko (Yugoslavia)
43. SEGARRA, Joan (España)
44. SOSA, Carlos (Argentina)
45. MARINHO CHAGAS (Francisco das Chagas Marinho) (Brasil)
46. HÖTTGES, Horst-Dieter (Alemania)
47. NEAL, Phil (Inglaterra)
48. BESSONOV, Vladimir (Unión Soviética)
49. EYZAGUIRRE, Luis (Chile)
50. BERGMARK, Orvar (Suecia)

http://glavisted.blogspot.com/2010/11/top-50-de-defensas-laterales.html
 

oneniltothearsenal

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@Pat_Mustard

That's a fair point to some degree but I tend to find that singular incidents can get blown out of proportion in drafts sometimes. That pass that led to a goal is very similar to what Toninho Cerezo does against Italy 1982. Its not really fair to the player if we are judging on 3 year peaks to isolate one single incident and use that against him. Also thinking of how Domingos Da Guia had that one singular horror tackle in 38 WC (outside of his career peak mind) used against him in a draft to basically nullify his skill as a defender.

I also don't think singular bad incidents get perceived equally by voters. I mean Souness never gets that ridiculously aggressively stamp that was just posted today in another thread used against him even though that shows more ill discipline than Marinho or Cerezo's bad passes. Also I never seen Zidane completely losing his temper in one of the biggest matcehs in his career and costing his team the World Cup used against him in all-time drafts so intensely either.

It also gives an unfair advantage to somehow like say Bessonov. I highly doubt Bessonov never made a bad pass in his career but that isn't so easy to highlight as there just isn't as much footage of him.

Do you have some specific game that is evidence of Bessonov being praised so highly as a defensive fullback?

Because everything I seen of him, he is not really any better defensively than any of the Brazilians that get labeled attacking full backs.
 

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Gambetta above both Marinho and Bessonov on a defenders list is a joke. I don't agree with Nelinho that high on the list either.

I'd rate Marinho above in terms of attacking contribution, but below Bessonov in terms of balanced full back and in defence. All in all the latter IMO is the better of the two all things considered.

I've gone with Invictus with the slightest of margins. Mainly because of the Tigana/ Matthaus combo which would be too much to handle in midfield for Pat IMO.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Tigana was primarily a top-notch defensive box-to-box player renowned for his defensive workrate, mate - up against a similar-ish box-to-box player with common shared characteristics with him - which was the thrust of the argument of them cancelling each other out. Wrt. Rene Girard, wasn't a pure destroyer - categorizing him as such would be erroneous, IMO. He was another box-to-box defensive midfielder who formed a double pivot of sorts with Tigana ahead of the defense. Even for France, Girard was frequently used when Tigana was rested or injured.

e.g.



I don't know what exactly this lad is saying :lol:, but he also mentions that Girard and Tigana played at the same plane...
That's a sublime Google Translate :lol:. Aye, I see your point on Tigana. It's not that he and Matthaus lack anything as a duo, but I think it's fair to say that Breitner will enjoy a little more freedom than them with Clodoaldo as a dedicated holding player, and Brady probably edging Hagi in terms of defensive contribution.

Good overall post highlighting Breitner's goalward contributions, @Pat_Mustard - he definitely had an edge in that particular department.

Another interesting matchup, however, is Hagi vs Clodoaldo. While researching for this match earlier in the day, I tried to find games where Clodoaldo capably marked top caliber #10 players when they were in full flow, and couldn't find any (maybe I didn't look hard enough). Might not have been a big issue against lesser #10s, but Hagi was exquisite at his peak:
Cheers mate. Regarding Clodoaldo, he did come up against Mazzola and (briefly) Rivera in the 1970 WC final and memorably samba-ed the shit out of the Italians:


He also faced Charlton's England and Cubillas' Peru in that World Cup, with only Cubillas getting on the scoresheet.

Hagi was absolutely sublime on his day, and his performances in the 1994 World Cup are some of my favourite football memories as a youngster, but I will point out that his record at the top level of club football leaves a little to be desired, with a mixed stint at Real Madrid and an underwhelming time at Barca. Brady's time in Italy contrasts favourably, establishing himself as a key player in two Serie A winning seasons at Juventus, before being unceremoniously ditched for Platini and performing creditably for Sampdoria, Inter and Ascoli. Bear in mind that this was the period where Italian clubs could only field two foreigners, so Brady wasn't ditched for sub-par performances. A nice quote from Boniperti:

"Brady, Boniek, Platini - we had one too many. If only we had been able to hold on to all three of them, we would have become one of the greatest teams of all time"

- Former Juventus president Giampiero Boniperti
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
@Pat_Mustard

That's a fair point to some degree but I tend to find that singular incidents can get blown out of proportion in drafts sometimes. That pass that led to a goal is very similar to what Toninho Cerezo does against Italy 1982. Its not really fair to the player if we are judging on 3 year peaks to isolate one single incident and use that against him. Also thinking of how Domingos Da Guia had that one singular horror tackle in 38 WC (outside of his career peak mind) used against him in a draft to basically nullify his skill as a defender.

I also don't think singular bad incidents get perceived equally by voters. I mean Souness never gets that ridiculously aggressively stamp that was just posted today in another thread used against him even though that shows more ill discipline than Marinho or Cerezo's bad passes. Also I never seen Zidane completely losing his temper in one of the biggest matcehs in his career and costing his team the World Cup used against him in all-time drafts so intensely either.

It also gives an unfair advantage to somehow like say Bessonov. I highly doubt Bessonov never made a bad pass in his career but that isn't so easy to highlight as there just isn't as much footage of him.

Do you have some specific game that is evidence of Bessonov being praised so highly as a defensive fullback?

Because everything I seen of him, he is not really any better defensively than any of the Brazilians that get labeled attacking full backs.
I agree with the bolded part but it goes with the territory, particularly with the older players when most of us will have watched very little of them. Zidane is always likely to get a pass for his moment of madness when most of us have seen him at his best too.

No specific game of Bessonov in mind to be honest. I'm going largely off reputation and not remembering any high profile blunders in various highlights I've watched. I did watch that Ireland vs Soviet Union match for him as well as Brady, but he was playing in central midfield and didn't do much of note before going off injured. He did play as a centre back at WC 1986 though, which I think speaks well for his defensive abilities, and they conceded only one goal in three group matches before shipping 4 against Belgium (two of those were in extra time though).

Some interesting posts on him from another forum:

Vladimir Bessonov played between CM and RB wherever needed in 85 and fully transitioned to RB in 86.He was the most versatile Soviet player of the '80s and one of the best examples of Lobanovsky's idea of "universality"...played every position except keeper and forward at some point, equally good all across midfield then transitioned into a RB as he got a bit slower and to cover for the inability to find a quality player for that role.A tactically astute, technically good player he had pace, vision and dribbling ability a few notches above what these kind of tidy utility players often have.His long diagonal passes from RB became a key component in Kiev's counterattacking style.Main downside was very injury prone, barely completed a single season in a 15 year career where didn't miss a third of the games, though he was the rare player that always seemed to return with no ill-effects to form.
Bessonov only ever played at CB if there were upheavals in the squad, i can't say i saw him play much there, but he was reported to have done solidly, adding to his rep for versatility.

That would have been with Baltacha alongside him much more often than not though, doing most of the organising.Sergei was a near ever-present until his injury in the cup winners cup.at 86 world cup with a young Kuznetsov was a tougher task.
And, completely unrelaed to the discussion here, a brutal assessment of Aleksandr Zavarov from the same poster, that I'm including solely because it made me laugh:

Aleksandr Zavarov was the other key central midfielder and the one whom all the play really went through in the final third.He had a great combination of technical ability, workrate and versatility.Excellent passer and dribbler who could play box to box or as a pure AM.At the stage he left for Juventus in a massive transfer he was one of the best midfielders in Europe, but he ruined his reputation there.he struggled to adapt initially, then just gave up once he got the keys to the ferrari, running around with a fat hamster face huffing and puffing after 60 mins by the start of his second-and make or break-season there.Him and Mikhailichenko made a big contribution to the often rightful view of ex-Soviet bloc players being mercenary, lazy and unreliable that remained for much of the next decade.
:lol:
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
The quality of debate in here is very good lads, keep it up.

Re Buchwald/Vierchowod - I've got a lot of love for both. Mostly in the past because neither were typically highly rated, but they've been getting a fairer reception more recently - especially Vierchowod. Buchwald generally still a little under-rated, but he was uncompromisingly ruthless as well and rarely got caught out from my memory of him. Hugely impressed with his Italia '90 tournament it has to be said. I would have both in the same sort of class bracket with similar strengths.
Cheers Gio.