Synth Draft: R1 - Skizzo vs Physiocrat

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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    20
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Skizzo

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For some reason I read Sporting and assumed they must be a Portuguese side. :lol::houllier:
:lol: alright that makes more sense. I wondered why you completely overlooked all those seasons!

Ah ok that makes more sense but an arrow would make it a bit more obvious. Even with a single attacking full-back I still think such systems without two attacking fullbacks/wing backs or a genuine winger and a single attacking full-back don't often use the space laterally as well as they could which is a problem against a great, organised defence. That said it depends to some extent on who will seize most of the possession - tbf I see that being pretty even. I reckon the game will have goals, I'll just score more :)
An arrow could have been used, but I've found I go from one extreme to the next. Hundreds of arrows on some teamsheets, less on others. In this case, his natural game was to attack and defend, and I fet an arrow would indicate I expected him to be an uber attacking outlet, which isn't the case. He's playing his normal game of a defender who can attack and overlap.

As for the goals, the game definitely has them! However as you're pushing up two of your back 4 on a regular basis, and all my 4 are rather clinical scorers, I'd back is to bag the majority of the goals. Especially as we have a better midfield with Captain Marvel in there driving us on :)
 

Physiocrat

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As for the goals, the game definitely has them! However as you're pushing up two of your back 4 on a regular basis, and all my 4 are rather clinical scorers, I'd back is to bag the majority of the goals. Especially as we have a better midfield with Captain Marvel in there driving us on :)
Two of the back four are going forward regularly however Figueroa will not on average be as far forward taking up a position in midfield rather than advanced on the wing. I too will have opportunities on the counter Littbarski and Demyanenko will force Tresor out with Anczok up field plus some genuine wing-play with Barnes. Again though the major difference IMO is that I'm more suited to breaking down a settled defence than you are as I can better stretch the play laterally.
 

Gio

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Love to see the battle between Blokhin and Demyanenko down the left.

Like the Thon/Robson partnership - has a bit of everything and both were fantastic at breaking the lines.
 

Skizzo

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Two of the back four are going forward regularly however Figueroa will not on average be as far forward taking up a position in midfield rather than advanced on the wing. I too will have opportunities on the counter Littbarski and Demyanenko will force Tresor out with Anczok up field plus some genuine wing-play with Barnes. Again though the major difference IMO is that I'm more suited to breaking down a settled defence than you are as I can better stretch the play laterally.
You just stated yourself that you don't have a "settled" defense though. Two of the back four are moving upfield regularly, one of which is your best defender. That leaves enough space for Simonsen, Blokhin, Enzo and Quini to exploit without having to stretch any play. Also, as stated, they're intelligent enough players to understand how to utilize the areas you're leaving open vu pushing up two of your back four.

We also have a better midfield, in my biased opinion ;) which means we'll have more opportunities to attack your defense, than you will have to try and break down our settled one.
 

Physiocrat

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You just stated yourself that you don't have a "settled" defense though. Two of the back four are moving upfield regularly, one of which is your best defender. That leaves enough space for Simonsen, Blokhin, Enzo and Quini to exploit without having to stretch any play. Also, as stated, they're intelligent enough players to understand how to utilize the areas you're leaving open vu pushing up two of your back four.

We also have a better midfield, in my biased opinion ;) which means we'll have more opportunities to attack your defense, than you will have to try and break down our settled one.

I do have a settled defence out of possession, your bigger opportunity is when it is re-organising but that shouldn't take too long especially since van der Elst can play CB too so the overall shape can be recovered quickly. And when you are facing the 433 shape I think you'll have trouble breaking them down- on the other hand I'm suited to both countering and attacking a settled defence.
 

Skizzo

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I do have a settled defence out of possession, your bigger opportunity is when it is re-organising but that shouldn't take too long especially since van der Elst can play CB too so the overall shape can be recovered quickly. And when you are facing the 433 shape I think you'll have trouble breaking them down- on the other hand I'm suited to both countering and attacking a settled defence.
We can break forward quicker than you can reorganize, especially with Robson's passing up to Enzo et al.

Secondly, your whole idea of being able to break down my defense is because you have a player in Barnes who was more of a winger? That doesn't stretch my defense any more than normal as I have people back. Your defense is the one who would struggle as you constantly have half of them bombing up field. How often do you think you can send half your backline forward before Simonsen, Blokhin, Enzo or Quini punish you? All of them were fairly prolific scorers, and there's only so many times you can risk leaving space before they punish you. If we score first, it opens the floodgates then since you have to advance even more often.
 

Physiocrat

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@Skizzo I have Barnes left and Demayenko on the right both tasked primarily for providing width. This will definitely stretch the play laterally more naturally than yours. Now your back four could move across but it's dangerous to leave one side of the attack open as much as that when I have my full complement going forward. It's different here but when Pep played two genuine wingers, at least positionally, it prevented a tightly drilled back four from remaining compact which allows the central players more space.

Also, do you think my defence is more prone to leaking goals on the counter than the current Real side? If so, why so?
 

Skizzo

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@Skizzo I have Barnes left and Demayenko on the right both tasked primarily for providing width. This will definitely stretch the play laterally more naturally than yours. Now your back four could move across but it's dangerous to leave one side of the attack open as much as that when I have my full complement going forward. It's different here but when Pep played two genuine wingers, at least positionally, it prevented a tightly drilled back four from remaining compact which allows the central players more space.

Also, do you think my defence is more prone to leaking goals on the counter than the current Real side? If so, why so?
First of all, I'm confused as to the comparisons with the current Real Madrid side. Secondly, I'd say you were more prone to leaking goals than them die to the fact you're facing a much better attack than they face week in week out.

Demyanenko as your primary width on the right means he's going to spend a large amount of time out of position, so I don't need to worry about stretching your defense as much as you would with mine, because you've already removed parts of it. Then you have Figueroa doing the same thing on occasion.

Barnes staying primarily wider is fine as well. What benefit is there to stretching play wide left when I have my back four and two all round box to box midfielders for protection? He moves away and is with Jardine...so I still have Gentile, Tresor, Anczok, Thon and Robson there to cover Careca, Simonsen, Demyanenko and Valderrama.

You lose the ball and your defense consists of either Hughes and Ruggeri, and sometimes your DM dropping in to cover the gaps. I don't need to stretch play wide open to take advantage of an opening like that. I'll back Simonsen, Enzo, Quini and Blokhin to beat that open back line as opposed to you breaking me open due to an attacking right back.
 
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Physiocrat

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First of all, I'm confused as to the comparisons with the current Real Madrid side. Secondly, I'd say you were more prone to leaking goals than them die to the fact you're facing a much better attack than they face week in week out.

Demyanenko as your primary width on the right means he's going to spend a large amount of time out of position, so I don't need to worry about stretching your defense as much as you would with mine, because you've already removed parts of it. Then you have Figueroa doing the same thing on occasion.

Barnes staying primarily wider is fine as well. What benefit is there to stretching play wide left when I have my back four and two all round box to box midfielders for protection? He moves away and is with Jardine...so I still have Bergomi, Tresor, Anczok, Thon and Robson there to cover Careca, Simonsen, Demyanenko and Valderrama.

You lose the ball and your defense consists of either Hughes and Ruggeri, and sometimes your DM dropping in to cover the gaps. I don't need to stretch play wide open to take advantage of an opening like that. I'll back Simonsen, Enzo, Quini and Blokhin to beat that open back line as opposed to you breaking me open due to an attacking right back.
Real in possession look something like this:

---------Ronaldo---Benzema----Bale
Marcelo---------------------------------Carvajal
---------------Modric------Kroos---------
---------------------Casemiro----------
----------------Varane--------Ramos-----


I look like this in possession-

---------------Careca-----Littbarski
Barnes-------------Valderrama---------Demayenko
------------Figueroa-----------Munoz----------------
-------------------------van Der Elst---------------
--------------------Hughes-------Ruggeri

I don't see much different shape wise and I have the better defenders. All my point is that the tactic is not inherently open on the counter. It has not been the case with Real and it won't be here
 

Physiocrat

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[QUOTE="Skizzo, post: 21506913, member: 72785]
I can't imagine our ratings would be very impressive :lol:[/QUOTE]

Well at least we'd show up Robbie Savage and Paul Merson for the tools they are.
 

Skizzo

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Real in possession look something like this:

---------Ronaldo---Benzema----Bale
Marcelo---------------------------------Carvajal
---------------Modric------Kroos---------
---------------------Casemiro----------
----------------Varane--------Ramos-----


I look like this in possession-

---------------Careca-----Littbarski
Barnes-------------Valderrama---------Demayenko
------------Figueroa-----------Munoz----------------
-------------------------van Der Elst---------------
--------------------Hughes-------Ruggeri

I don't see much different shape wise and I have the better defenders. All my point is that the tactic is not inherently open on the counter. It has not been the case with Real and it won't be here
Those two huge pockets of space on either side of Hughes and Ruggeri may not be exploited by Elche who are defending for their lives against Ronaldo, Isco etc

Simonsen and Blokhin are on a slightly different level, and with that amount of space, is back them to do some damage.
 

Physiocrat

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Well I'm off to sleep now. We have covered most of the salient points. Wil pick up any other questions in morning.
 
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[QUOTE="Skizzo, post: 21506913, member: 72785]
I can't imagine our ratings would be very impressive :lol:
Well at least we'd show up Robbie Savage and Paul Merson for the tools they are.[/QUOTE]
Whoa, don't be setting your sights too high! I think Paul Merson is very underated and makes some pertinent points.,..



nah.
 

Skizzo

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Let's take a moment to look at the fact that Bryan Robson is going to dominate this midfield here. Him and Olaf Thon complement each other and are well rounded, but Robson is well set up to leave his mark all over that midfield, and I'm not sure who would challenge him here. Unless Don Elias permanently steps into midfield to help, Robson would dominate Munoz and limit any chance they have to string anything meaningful together.

Whenever United needed someone to step up, there was Robson.



A couple of videos that I don't think made it into Jogas epic write up
 

Skizzo

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So with Victor Munoz already overwhelmed by Robson...Franky van der Elst is supposed to shut down Enzo AND drop into defense to cover?

Even if Franky solely focuses on trying to stop Enzo, he's up against it. If he's trying to stop him and cover for defenders bombing upfield...I fail to see how he does either successfully

 

oneniltothearsenal

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So with Victor Munoz already overwhelmed by Robson...Franky van der Elst is supposed to shut down Enzo AND drop into defense to cover?

Even if Franky solely focuses on trying to stop Enzo, he's up against it. If he's trying to stop him and cover for defenders bombing upfield...I fail to see how he does either successfully
You are completely ignoring Valderrama with this analysis though. Valderrama was extremely difficult to try to win the ball off. Thon can't handle Valderrama on his own imo and is going to need Robson's help there. Can't ignore Valderrama.

 

Skizzo

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You are completely ignoring Valderrama with this analysis though. Valderrama was extremely difficult to try to win the ball off. Thon can't handle Valderrama on his own imo and is going to need Robson's help there. Can't ignore Valderrama.

I'm not ignoring him, I'm basing it off how his own manager said they'd be positioned above

I look like this in possession-

---------------Careca-----Littbarski
Barnes-------------Valderrama---------Demayenko
------------Figueroa-----------Munoz----------------
-------------------------van Der Elst---------------
--------------------Hughes-------Ruggeri

pushing players up against the way we're set up, leaves huge gaps to exploit when we push forward. Simonsen and Blokhin are much more likely to exploit that space before the defense is all able to fall back and set up again.



Physio asked if i thought we'd be able to score goals against his set up, and said they'd be lined up like this in attack...id say yes, we'd score with the space afforded to our danger players. Just as you say I'm discounting Valderrama against Thon, you're discounting Simonsen and Blokhin in wide areas against what basically becomes a two man defense.
 
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Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I had him similar to Giggs using his pace and ability to make runs beating fullbacks as his strengths. Very different from Stoichkov/Messi type Inside Forwards who play 4-3-3.
Both Stoichkov and Messi mostly played as 'inverted' types though who cut inside onto their stronger foot. I don't see any reason why playing in a 4-3-3 would prevent a winger from attacking his full back on the outside, and in any case Barnes was well capable of cutting infield to score or create as well.

Great match up this. Both goalkeeper/CB units look near final-ready with Physio's probably the best in the draft, and there's bags of creativity in both teams. I'm going to hold out on voting for a bit, but the sheer dynamism of that Robson-Thon central midfield is swaying me a little towards Skizzo.

Also @Skizzo , I think you've had an attack of the 'Bobby Robsons' and got confused as to which Italian CB/RB you're playing in some of your recent posts ;)

Simon Jones said:
I was introduced to Sir Bobby at a dinner in London while chatting to Bryan Robson. Bryan had been recalling various Bobby stories including the day Bobby came down for breakfast and said to him, ‘Morning Bobby’ to which Bryan had replied, ‘No boss, you're Bobby.’

Bobby turned to me and said: ‘Don't believe all they tell you, son. I never forget a name, Steve.’
 
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Skizzo

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Both Stoichkov and Messi mostly played as 'inverted' types though who cut inside onto their stronger foot. I don't see any reason why playing in a 4-3-3 would prevent a winger from attacking his full back on the outside, and in any case Barnes was well capable of cutting infield to score or create as well.

Great match up this. Both goalkeeper/CB units look near final-ready with Ohysio's probably the best in the draft, and there's bags of creativity in both teams. I'm going to hold out on voting for a bit, but the sheer dynamism of that Robson-Thon central midfield is swaying me a little towards Skizzo.

Also @Skizzo , I think you've had an attack of the 'Bobby Robsons' and got confused as to which Italian CB/RB you're playing in some of your recent posts ;)
You're certainly right on that last part :lol: every time i typed it i paused, then went with it anyway.

Can't find fault with Physio's defenders, especially that central pairing. I just think in this particular game, that set up would cause themselves some headaches in trying to stop our attack hitting that space they'd leave behind. Especially as they aren't a highly possessive team in terms of ball retention and movement. It's bound to break down, and leaving that two man defense with just Hughes and Ruggeri would ask for trouble against the pace and trickery we'd look to hit them with.

Really happy with Thon lasting until a later pick. Think him and Robson are both great all rounders, and would swing the midfield battle in our favour, limiting the opposition the chance to break down our defense like they'd hope. I may also be biased however :)
 

Skizzo

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@harms @Edgar Allan Pillow

made a post about Quini on page 1. Here's some more info/quotes etc from various places

"El Brujo" Quini, one of the best Spanish strikers ever and arguably the best player ever to play for Sporting de Gijón. His succes started in Sporting's squad, were he become one of the biggest scoring machine in the era, winning the Pichichi trophy 7 times(5 in Primera and 2 in Segunda), a number that even legends like Telmo Zarra couldn't achieve. Before scoring tones of goals for his beloved Gijón, he moved to F.C.Barcelona at the age of 31, where he played with players like Maradona, Schuster or Migueli. Despite his age, he still had plenty of his abilities and helped Barça win Copa del Rey scoring two goals against, funnily, Sporting. At the age of 35 he left Barcelona to play again for Gijón, and three years later he retired.

Quini was a pure CF with decent speed and superb poaching abilities: great positioning and response, and a deadly finish, even though his biggest(and favourite) weapon was his powerful and laser accurate header, he simply put the ball where he wanted. He also had some good technical skills and was capable of some excellent tricks.
Quini's best assets were his poaching abilities and his shooting which are absolutely world-class and some of them close to god region.

Other than that, he had decent speed and technical skills but he wasn't a master, he used them just to compliment his other attributes.
More info on his kidnapping, and his absence costing Barca the title.

65-year old Enrique Castro González, or Quini, as he is widely known as, is one of the greatest strikers in Spanish football history. Having played for Sporting Gijon and Barcelona, he bagged a staggering number of seven Pichichi awards; the trophy that is awarded to the player with the highest league goals.

It was the year of 1980 when after Barcelona’s several attempts of bringing him to the Catalan club proved to be successful after Quini was roped in by them for 82 million pesetas (the currency used in Spain back then) post-Gijon’s relegation. Quini was already a well-established player by then, having won three Pichichi trophies with Gijon in his 381 appearances for the Asturian side.

The striker was aged 31 when he signed for Barcelona, but he was still very lethal as you would have expected him to be. Over the next two seasons (1980-1981 and 1981-1982), he would go on to be the top goalscorer in the league, scoring 47 goals as he led the team in their 1981 Copa del Rey final win among other accolades.

March 1, 1981: The Kidnapping
It was reportedly around 2’o clock that day when Quini was kidnapped by two gunmen from his own front door in a separate van. This was right after he had scored twice during Barcelona’s 6-0 win against Hercules. Gonzalez was leaving the stadium alone and was on his way to the El Prat airport to pick up his wife and children who were just returning from Asturias.

Worried sick about her husband’s absence, wife Maria Nieves contacted authorities and filed a missing report. Alexanco was the last person Quini had spoken to before his kidnapping when the striker informed her about his plan to pick them up from the airport.

Troubled and tensed, Quini’s father Enrique was as confused as anyone would be in that scenario. "I never had anything to do with politics,” he said while wife Maria Elena cried in agony. Friends and family expressed their discontent while his brothers, Jesus Castro and Phallus travelled to Barcelona as soon as they could.

Two calls were made following the kidnapping; one insisted that the player would be returned home in 11 days if the story was not made public. The other caller, however, spoke to Spanish daily newspaper La Vanguardia, saying that Quini would only be released after Barcelona’s match with Atletico Madrid. The caller was part of an alleged group called the "Catalan-Spanish batallion."


Barcelona, who were on the verge of securing the league title were now left without their best player, and the abduction also had a moral impact on his teammates. Bernd Schuster, who was an important part of the Barcelona setup back then was resolute about not playing in the next match. And, he wasn’t the only one in the team who was thinking that way.

But, there was no backing out from there. Travelling to Vicente Calderón, Barcelona fielded a team without their main striker, and they succumbed to a 1-0 loss.

The Aftermath
Quini was kept as a hostage for 25 days, and during this period, the team could amass just a single point from four matches, eventually losing out on the league title.

It was 23 March, three weeks after his abduction, when attempts at rescuing Quini finally turned out to be fruitful. Contact was made with the kidnappers where it was agreed that a ransom sum of 100 million pesetas will be deposited into a Swiss bank account at a certain date. Barca’s José Ramón Alexanko was acting as the mediator throughout the situation.
However, the officials were not having any of that. A trap was set with cooperation between the Spanish and Swiss law enforcement when one of the kidnappers was caught red-handed while withdrawing 1 million pesetas from the bank. He would eventually lead the police to a garage based in Zaragoza where Quini had been held for 25 days. He was unharmed.

The kidnappers were arrested and punished on the 15th January 1982 with a sentence of 10 years. But, surprisingly Quini chose not to press charges against them – never claiming the 5 million pesetas that he was eligible for damages. It was rumoured that he had developed Stockholm syndrome, a psychological case where hostages tend to show sympathy towards their captors. Quini insisted that he was well-treated, and that even though they were kidnappers, overall, they were good human beings.

and his profile here from Barcelona's own website

In is first spell with Sporting Gijón he showed how quick and poweful he was up front and his imeccable finishing with both his feet and his head impressed. It was no conicidence that he was Pichichi on three different occasions with the Asturian team.

Barça finally managed to prise him away from Sporting in 1980 after several years of trying. At 31, he was still very effective and had lost none of his sharpness in front of goal. During his first campaign at Camp Nou he was kidnapped, but later released unharmed. Three months later he came up against the Sporting team, where he eventually played for 12 years, in the Copa del Rey final and showed true professionalism to score twice and help the Blaugrana to victory.

In 1980/81 and 1981/82 he finished as the Spanish top flight's top goalscorer with Barcelona and scored the club's 3,000th league goal on January 24, 1982 against Castellón. In 1984 he returned to Sporting and left behind some very happy memories with his amazing goalscoring feats and was praised for his human qualities as much as his football ability.
 

Skizzo

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Also think I'd be doing @Gio a disservice if I didn't highlight Sandy Jardine, and let him fly under the radar.

starting with some quotes from the Caf about the lad

Jardine is one of Scotland’s best ever right backs, very quick and energetic, and a good dribbler too. He would provide attacking outlet on the right side, while not abandoning defensive duties.
It was pretty fecking decent - we had the best pair of full-backs in the competition in Danny McGrain and Sandy Jardine. We went out conceding a single goal.
McGrory and James are in the mix, but they're up against Law and Dalglish, so would have to settle for the second XI. We don't have a lot of depth in the nets. After Goram there's a drop-off and even Ronnie Simpson only got 5 caps. And there's Bobby Brown and Jim Leighton in there as well, but Brown was a part-time footballer while Leighton never truly convinced. At left-back there are a few around the same level, Greig obviously although he was more naturally a defensive midfielder. Sammy Cox was an important part of Rangers' Iron Curtain defence while Eric Caldow would be probably in the first XI had he not broken his leg in 1963 against England. Assuming Meiklejohn goes into the first team, there are a number of influential centre-halves broadly around the same level, all famed as leaders as well as being typically uncompromising Scottish central defenders. Jardine's a class act on the ball and given the fairly defensive nature of the central midfield duo you'd need that as opposed to the brick-shithouse approach of a defensively solid George Young for instance. Billy Bremner would be unlucky not to be in the first XI and he ran so many midfields in England and Europe in his prime that he goes in there without question. Alongside him is Alex Raisbeck, partially as a nod to the pre-WW1 era, but also because of the legacy in which he is held. A lot of competition on the flanks and I didn't really have the balls to separate on the left - there's a few all around the same level there. Gone for Willie Henderson on the right who was a very quick and conventional right-winger with good delivery. Front two pick themselves but there are of course a number of heavy goalscorers who could be in the mix - Bob McPhail, Hugh Ferguson and Ally McCoist - in particular.


Sandy Jardine who was one of the best full-backs in the world in the 1970s
Some of those may or may not be Gio himself :p


and this last one is a fantastic watch. Well worth the 5 minutes or so on him.


So all in all, I think its fair to say between him and Anczok, I'd have enough from the full backs to offer an overlap or two to stretch that field when necessary.
 

Physiocrat

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Which part of the match is this supposed to represent? In attack there is no way my side would be as vertically spaced, it would be much more compact, and I also seriously doubt that Simonsen and Blohkin will do no defending at all.
 

Physiocrat

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These are probably more representative of average (not any particular play as that would produce loads of diagrams) positions of both sides in attack and defence

Me in attack



Skizzo in attack



Whilst there looks like there is more space for Skizz to exploit on the counter Simonsen and Blokhin they are close to both Munoz and Figueroa. Also as you can see there are broadly five men further back in both sides in attack. It also the picture is generous to Skizz as one of Thon or Robson will have to move closer to, not man mark, Valderrama (he has no dedicated DM) which means one of Blokin and Simonsen will have to drop further back otherwise there could be many one on ones with his full-backs so the advantage on the counter is then less obvious. When Skizz is in attack you can see the relative compactness of my defense is better since he will only have serious width with Anczok and Blokhin on the right. van der Elst will sit in front and I will be very hard to break down. I also have a great out ball in Barnes who will have less defending to do than Blokhin or Simonsen because of the generally more lopsided attack; Tresor coming out to meet Littbarski is very similar to that of Hughes or Ruggeri.
 

Gio

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No idea what the score is but I've found these two very hard to separate. Physio looks to have so many avenues to goal, it's a classic physio side chock-full of creativity. Founded on a superb central defensive partnership as well - Ruggeri was a steal when he was picked. And then Skizzo's team are perfect for the counter, with an attritional midfield duo and searing pace on the break. Blokhin in particular loves hitting some open grass and he'd be too hot to handle at times for Ruggeri.