System babies

[Irrational.]

Bebe

 

[Bwuk]

Every single player is.

The best managers sign players that suit there system.

 

[ZIDANE]

Lampard.

He was only that good in that attacking midfielder 'score a load of goals from midfield' position in the premiership which caused so many problems with England as they didn't have the players to play that same system (or a capable manager).

Carrick.

Now maybe but previously he's shown he can play well in a midfield 2 with Scholes, a midfield 3, and part-time centre back! Add to that he's now played under various managers and a different philosophy. What else do you want a midfielder to do.

 

[ivaldo]

Carrick.

Now maybe but previously he's shown he can play well in a midfield 2 with Scholes, a midfield 3, and part-time centre back! Add to that he's now played under various managers and a different philosophy. What else do you want a midfielder to do.

That's all that matters.

 

[Akshay]

That's all that matters.

Isn't that mostly every midfielder at the tail end of their career, though? Could say the same for Pirlo now.

 

[sokol11]

People aren't being serious when they say Messi, right? Please god tell me they're not being serious.

Why not? Would Messi flourish in the Atletico Madrid system? Not a chance. He is a system baby.

 

[Blackwidow]

Lewa is one of the few from Dortmund who aren't system babies. Gundogan looks like he's avoiding the curse too. Jury is out on Mkhi.

Lewa has the skillset to adapt.

Else I think the adaptibility of a German player you always could see with the first appearances with the German team. Gündogan adapted smoothly and looked from the first day like he would refer into the team. Götze was the big assistant at Dortmund - but hardly has one assist for Germany or Bayern.

I think that there is two ways to look at it
Some need a system as it provides a big helpline for the players what they have to do, where they have to run to and where they have to pass - in a smart system the strength of a player will be emphasized and the weaknesses compensated by the teammates. They might have speed or technical ability but not the vision or creativity or game intelligence when they get more freedom.

There is players that have a skillset that just matches best to a special system but aren't so great in another. Some wingers are great making crosses and on the line but do not have the big goalscoring ability and cannot be used cutting in and vice versa. Some players are absolutely great for a counter attacking system as they have the speed etc. - but need space and time to play and would not be good in a ball possession system. Some defenders lack speed to play in a system with a high line but are great defenders in other systems or with other partners...

 

[B20]

too many meaningless names thrown about here. Also don't think it's clearcut to what extend some of these 'babies' were running on confidence and such. Kagawa and Sahin for example, weren't the same when they rejoined the system.

Others simply grow as players in a system that suits them to the point where they become just really good players. I think Busquets and Gundogan fit those categories. Rather than think of benefiting from the system as a critique of a player's capability, I think it makes better sense to see it as training wheels for player development.

I don't see any of

Mkhitaryan
Depay
Hazard
Fellaini
Hernandez
Carrick
Smalling
Messi
Lallana
Schniederlin
Di Maria

as being that. They would all be very good in a variety of systems, even if they have failed in a particular setup. Except Depay who is just a bit rubbish and would only be very good in the championship.

My picks would be:

Henderson
Godin

Though I expect Godin has grown so much he is basically just top class by now. Without Simeone, he could very well have been just another defender.

The anti-thesis to it is basically Suarez.

 

[do.ob]

The idea of this thread is quite ridiculous. Aside from a hand full of players who are either very complete or have insane pace/technique, so that every coach can utilize them well, everyone is dependant on the tactical approach fitting his skillset to some degree.
You name Kagawa for example:
did well under Klopp
did ok under Ferguson
was ruined under Moyes
did ok to well under Tuchel

Mkhitaryan did well for Shaktar, did well for Dortmund, did well for Armenia, what exactly is supposed to make him a "system baby"?

Sahin is not tied to a system either, he's a very good passer with a good shot on him but he really lacks mobility. To get the most of him the coach needs to find a midfield setup that can compensate for that but in general he did well both when his team was playing extremely direct transition based / counter attacking football and wenn the focus was more on possession and control.

Depay if anything is a league baby, he's clearly someone who didn't manage the transition to a bigger league. Not sure what "systems" have to do with it.

Don't get the mention of Hazard either: he's been doing well under serveral different coaches and at two different clubs. Did they all play the same system??

 

[Jaybomb]

Every player in the world is better in a system that plays to their strengths. Some systems are more prevalent than others and some players are better at picking things up and adapting. If you put Andy Carroll up front for Dortmund and made them exclusively cross the ball to Andy Carroll in attack then he'd score a lot of goals.

This.

But to go into further detail, you wouldn't be able to play with a "slow number 9" type in a counter attacking system. Just like you wouldn't be able to start spamming crosses to a small fast player like Messi. Every player has strengths and plays better when used to them.

 

[Sarni]

Messi.

Can't play without Xavi and Iniesta to hold his hand.

To think that people actually used to trot that line.

This. When Xavi stops feeding him the ball, he will be nobody.

 

[ivaldo]

Isn't that mostly every midfielder at the tail end of their career, though? Could say the same for Pirlo now.

Yeah pretty much.

 

[JPRouve]

Players fit managers and managers fit players. Systems are as much dependent on players than players are dependent on systems.