Teacher beheaded near Paris after showing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad

iluvoursolskjær

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This is a big subject to get into, but that's quite a statement. As an atheist I would personally argue that pretty much all religious texts are based on a flawed premise. That is not to single out Islam in particular though. That being said, I don't go around saying that to people of faiths, because 99% of people are perfectly reasonable and fine, and I'm not fussed if someone chooses to believe something that I don't, as long as it doesn't have a real impact on me, and I'm certainly not intelligent enough to find the answers. In general I think it is clearly the extremist element that needs to be combatted. There is a poem that I quite like by the mathemetician and poet (among other things) Omar Khayyam, and often think of when you see extremists claiming some form of moral authority. From memory, so apologies.

''And do you think that unto such as you
a maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well - what matters it? Believe that too!"
Of course questions like the existence of God (the premis of scripture you alluded to) is open for debate and is discussed by much more learned minds than ourselves, but my statement is in relation to the often implied or directly suggested idea that Islam in its' state is problematic to our society.

I respect and appreciate the part in bold.

I again highly recommend the vid in my previous post which compares the basis of liberal ideals to traditional Islamic ones.

Edit:

With timestamps

Human rights and liberal contractariansm

Social contract with sovereign leader/government and moral possibilities

Apostasy and treason

Liberalism as religion
 
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e.cantona

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Fortunately the Muslim population in Europe is growing, relatively speaking. The more multi-religious and cultural, the better for our society.

This beheading incident is just an unfortunate incident.
Not saying you're wrong, but I would love to know why you think this?
 

calodo2003

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Fortunately the Muslim population in Europe is growing, relatively speaking. The more multi-religious and cultural, the better for our society.

This beheading incident is just an unfortunate incident.
I agree with your multicultural thought, but the beheading incident isn’t simply ‘unfortunate.’
 

MDFC Manager

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Fortunately the Muslim population in Europe is growing, relatively speaking. The more multi-religious and cultural, the better for our society.
Not if the minority populations are ghettoed and find it hard to get integrated.
 

SinNombre

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Not if the minority populations are ghettoed and find it hard to get integrated.
And will see a rise in "unfortunate" beheadings and "fortunate" rise in religious populations.
 

Bebestation

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And will see a rise in "unfortunate" beheadings and "fortunate" rise in religious populations.
And accidental bombs. Just as much as some are quick to raise their voice when something is said not to their suitability- like rhianna making a song, they need to use that irritability towards looking out for people within their own community that deminish their society by their actions.
 

iluvoursolskjær

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And accidental bombs. Just as much as some are quick to raise their voice when something is said not to their suitability- like rhianna making a song, they need to use that irritability towards looking out for people within their own community that deminish their society by their actions.
And what makes you think they don't?
 

Joga Bonito

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I fear that while for a long time the world in general was moving towards deradicalization, at least culturally (it may very well be an illusion), now it's going another way, and fast. And not only in Muslim communities – in most of the Western countries there's been a significant rise in popularity of alt-right movements; Hindu nationalism is on the rise in India, Turkey have turned their back on Atatürk's ideals, Russia keeps antagonising the West, the less is said about Trump and Boris, the better...
Yeah you do have a point. A shame really.
 

Bebestation

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And what makes you think they don't?
Because it keeps happening. They dont do it well enough. They should be stopping this mosques and leaders or wherever or whoever teach this stuff. How would you feel of your son or daughter blew up a train to make a statement? I wouldnt be hanging with friends or raisong my family that way but for some reason this keeps happening.

If there is all this social media for some to shout out for every mistake people make on Islam then there is also enough pressure to put on your own community and the way it's being run.

Join an army for all I care to make a statement but just random individuals beheading people and blowing trains and concerts? Nah not for me.

There was recently people near my family house who moved out of a mosque to open up an Islamic shop which they do nothing but gather up and pray. When the local community complained about them illegally parking all across their roads and houses - what happened? Violence.

I go out with a Muslim girl, have Muslim friends, so I'm not just random guy who blames everyone & thinks everyone is like this in such a community - but are they doing the best they can? I really dont think so. They read the middle eastern language, they know how the quaran can be misinterpreted in to questionable actions. They have the ability to stop this before anyone else and it keeps leaking out like unnecessary blood they cause. Then after such actions they just turn their back hand to it and say the religion is a peaceful one. It might be but it really isnt acting like it at times.
 

iluvoursolskjær

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Because it keeps happening. They dont do it well enough. They should be stopping this mosques and leaders or wherever or whoever teach this stuff. How would you feel of your son or daughter blew up a train to make a statement? I wouldnt be hanging with friends or raisong my family that way but for some reason this keeps happening.

If there is all this social media for some to shout out for every mistake people make on Islam then there is also enough pressure to put on your own community and the way it's being run.

Join an army for all I care to make a statement but just random individuals beheading people and blowing trains and concerts? Nah not for me.

There was recently people near my family house who moved out of a mosque to open up an Islamic shop which they do nothing but gather up and pray. When the local community complained about them illegally parking all across their roads and houses - what happened? Violence.

I go out with a Muslim girl, have Muslim friends, so I'm not just random guy who blames everyone & thinks everyone is like this in such a community - but are they doing the best they can? I really dont think so. They read the middle eastern language, they know how the quaran can be misinterpreted in to questionable actions. They have the ability to stop this before anyone else and it keeps leaking out like unnecessary blood they cause. Then after such actions they just turn their back hand to it and say the religion is a peaceful one. It might be but it really isnt acting like it at times.
You're making a lot of false equivalences. The fact that sometimes these things happen, doesn't mean that there aren't people in the community who don't do anything about it. The number of dawah people out in the communities, youtube, social media, places like speakers corner, creators of podcasts and other content is more than ever. Every single one of them would unequivocally condemn terrorism and further more are actively educating the youth. Just because you are unaware of the mechanisms the community has doesnt mean its not there and quite frankly id question your intentions.

Radicalisation isnt something that happens in public view and the reasons for that should be obvious.

Some of you dont want to leave behind this ignorance because you either can't be arsed or dont want to. Its the only reason why after all these years one can still read the utter bollocks still being spouted on here and other places alike.
 

esmufc07

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Are we allowed to post the cartoons on here?
 

Bebestation

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You're making a lot of false equivalences. The fact that sometimes these things happen, doesn't mean that there aren't people in the community who don't do anything about it. The number of dawah people out in the communities, youtube, social media, places like speakers corner, creators of podcasts and other content is more than ever. Every single one of them would unequivocally condemn terrorism and further more are actively educating the youth. Just because you are unaware of the mechanisms the community has doesnt mean its not there and quite frankly id question your intentions.

Some of you dont want to leave behind this ignorance because you either can't be arsed or dont want to. Its the only reason why after all these years one can still read the utter bollocks still being spouted on here and other places alike.
I never said they dont do it - I said it's not happening well enough.
 

Shamana

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Fortunately the Muslim population in Europe is growing, relatively speaking. The more multi-religious and cultural, the better for our society.

This beheading incident is just an unfortunate incident.
I'm not honestly sure this is the general mood in Europe atm or has been for quite some time now.
 

Revan

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Fortunately the Muslim population in Europe is growing, relatively speaking. The more multi-religious and cultural, the better for our society.

This beheading incident is just an unfortunate incident.
Why is that fortunate though?
 

MoskvaRed

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Fortunately the Muslim population in Europe is growing, relatively speaking. The more multi-religious and cultural, the better for our society.

This beheading incident is just an unfortunate incident.
I agree that this psycho is not representative of the Muslim population of France or Europe. However, what is good about an increase in religious observance in Europe? We spent centuries and spilled a lot of blood freeing ourselves from the influence of the Church. Surely it would be better if we could engage one another without reference to millennia-old fables from the Middle East.
 

Foxbatt

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The questions that need to be asked is why is that happening now and not 60 or 70 years ago? There were lots of Muslims in Europe even then.
 

utdalltheway

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Supposedly French authorities are cracking down on what they view as Muslim radical groups.
Even the parent (of one of the kids at that school) that protested against the teacher is now in trouble. They’ll be deporting the foreign ones I’ll bet. Not sure if that’s a good move long term but perhaps it sends a message.
 

Shamana

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Supposedly French authorities are cracking down on what they view as Muslim radical groups.
Even the parent (of one of the kids at that school) that protested against the teacher is now in trouble. They’ll be deporting the foreign ones I’ll bet. Not sure if that’s a good move long term but perhaps it sends a message.
If that parent was in anyway involved in informing the people who carried out this attack it really is a very fair move.
 
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Joga Bonito

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France teacher attack: Pupil's father 'exchanged texts with killer'

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-54613565
Mr Darmanin earlier said 51 French Muslim organisations, including charities and NGOs, would be inspected by government officials and closed down if they were found to be promoting hatred.

Also on Tuesday, the French government ordered a mosque to close for sharing videos on Facebook calling for action against Mr Paty and sharing his school's address in the days before his death.
That's a good step forward, I'm assuming they'd already been monitoring these institutions but are intensifying their efforts now. Should also apply to other religious organizations and groups etc.

I'm sure many won't be favorable towards these monitoring and inspections, and could feel targeted but it feels like a necessary measure in my opinion.
 

iluvoursolskjær

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Inshallah all organisations and individuals that don't educate the ummah but rather promote ignorance hate and violence get fecked.

But i also hope a country like France realises their hypocrisies in their implementation of freedom of speech and expression.
 
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calodo2003

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Inshallah all organisations and individuals that don't educate the ummah but rather promote ignorance hate and violence get fecked.

But i also hope a country like France realises their hypocrisies in their implementation of freedom of speech and expression.
How’s France being hypocritical about their implementation of freedom of speech / expression?
 

calodo2003

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Banning Islamic dress for women for example, including things like Burkini which is a modest dress for Muslim women at the beach. Google it, don't really need to dig deep.
How does that really play into teaching about freedom of speech in an educational setting?

I get what you are saying about the dress being banned. I obviously have no experience with such in my country, so I can’t speak too confidently on where I would stand, but I don’t see the connection with that & a school curriculum that teaches freedom of speech.
 

iluvoursolskjær

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How does that really play into teaching about freedom of speech in an educational setting?

I get what you are saying about the dress being banned. I obviously have no experience with such in my country, so I can’t speak too confidently on where I would stand, but I don’t see the connection with that & a school curriculum that teaches freedom of speech.
Don't you find it rich that one moment a society speaks of liberty and freedom, then goes and bans people from wearing a bit of cloth on themselves?

I've no issue with how freedom of speech is taught and have never indicated any issue with people's right to express or be critical of whatever they will.
 

calodo2003

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Don't you find it rich that one moment a society speaks of liberty and freedom, then goes and bans people from wearing a bit of cloth on themselves?

I've no issue with how freedom of speech is taught and have never indicated any issue with people's right to express or be critical of whatever they will.
On face value, I would be opposed to banning someone wearing a certain type of clothing which is inherent with their religious beliefs. But I can’t speak confidently on how I would feel in France’s situation as I just don’t live there & am not a part of the culture.

It seems a tad like forced conflation to bind the two together. I don’t know if the cartoons referenced the inability to wear said clothing on the beach, I just don’t see how germane that is to this specific horror.
 

iluvoursolskjær

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On face value, I would be opposed to banning someone wearing a certain type of clothing which is inherent with their religious beliefs. But I can’t speak confidently on how I would feel in France’s situation as I just don’t live there & am not a part of the culture.

It seems a tad like forced conflation to bind the two together. I don’t know if the cartoons referenced the inability to wear said clothing on the beach, I just don’t see how germane that is to this specific horror.
You keep assuming that I am arguing against the fact the cartoons were able to be drawn, I am not. I'm just saying that words like 'freedom' are thrown around a lot in the subsequent conversation, and that that freedom should be consistent for everyone within reason, but it isn't.
 

calodo2003

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You keep assuming that I am arguing against the fact the cartoons were able to be drawn, I am not. I'm just saying that words like 'freedom' are thrown around a lot in the subsequent conversation, and that that freedom should be consistent for everyone within reason, but it isn't.
But it should exist within the realm of education allowing for what should be sane exchanges of views, yes? That’s what the topic of the thread is & what is ultimately at the core of this.

It’s always a shame that certain segments of society will always feel more put upon than other segments, but that’s how it is everywhere. It’s always unfortunate. But, to me, the linking of an unfortunate limiting of religious expression in any way to this atrocity seems a bit tenuous. Again, I’m speaking from no immediate knowledge of the entire subject in France, but that’s how it seems to me.

I do get what your overall point seems to be. Thanks for the chat.