Thailand's little protest just became bloody: Fifteen people were killed

sglowrider

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BANGKOK (AP) — Thai soldiers and police fought pitched battles Saturday night with anti-government demonstrators in streets enveloped in tear gas, but troops later retreated and asked protesters to do the same. Fifteen people were killed and more than 650 wounded in Thailand’s worst political violence in nearly 20 years.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva went on national television shortly before midnight to pay condolences to the families of victims, and indicated he would not bow to protesters’ demands to dissolve Parliament and call new elections.

“The government and I are still responsible for easing the situation and trying to bring peace and order to the country,” Abhisit said, vowing a transparent investigation into the violence.

The army had vowed to clear the “Red Shirt” protesters out of one of their two bases in Bangkok by nightfall, but the push instead set off street fighting. There was a continuous sound of gunfire and explosions, mostly from Molotov cocktails. After more than two hours of fierce clashes, the soldiers pulled back.

Army spokesman Col. Sansern Kaewkamnerd went on television to ask the protesters to retreat as well. He also accused them of firing live rounds and throwing grenades during the fighting. An APTN cameraman saw two Red Shirt security guards carrying assault rifles.

“The security forces have now retreated to a certain extent from the Red Shirts,” Sansern said. He said a senior government official had been asked to coordinate with the protesters to restore peace.

The Red Shirts’ demonstrations are part of a long-running battle between the mostly poor and rural supporters of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, and the ruling elite they say orchestrated the 2006 military coup that removed him from power.

They see the Oxford-educated Abhisit as a symbol of an elite impervious to the plight of Thailand’s poor and claim he took office illegitimately in December 2008 after the military pressured Parliament to vote for him.

The government’s Erawan emergency center said tallies from four Bangkok hospitals showed the death toll early Sunday had risen to at least 15 — four soldiers and 11 civilians.

Among them was Japanese cameraman Hiro Muramoto who worked for Thomson Reuters news agency. In a statement, Reuters said he was shot in the chest while covering the fighting.

The protesters marched the body of a man they said was killed in the fighting to one of their encampments. They carried the man — who had part of his head blown off — on a stretcher.

The injury toll for the day rose to 678, according to the Erawan emergency center. The army said any live rounds were fired only into the air, but confirmed that two of its soldiers had been shot. Government spokesman Panithan Wattanayakorn said more than 60 troops had been injured.

Most of Saturday’s fighting took place around Democracy Monument, which is near one of the encampments of the Red Shirt protesters. But it spread to the Khao San Road area, a favorite of foreign backpackers.

Soldiers made repeated charges to clear the Red Shirts, while some tourists stood by watching. Two protesters and a Buddhist monk with them were badly beaten by soldiers and taken away by ambulance.

A Japanese tourist who was wearing a red shirt was also clubbed by soldiers until bystanders rescued him.

Red Shirt leaders at the second rally site in the capital’s main shopping district said they were leading followers to reinforce their comrades at the site of the fighting.

Government forces have confronted the protesters before but pulled back rather than risk bloodshed.

On Friday, the army failed to prevent demonstrators from breaking into the compound of a satellite transmission station and briefly restarting a pro-Red Shirt television station that had been shut down by the government under a state of emergency. The humiliating rout of troops and riot police raised questions about how much control Abhisit has over the police and army.

To effectively confront the protesters, Siripan Nogsuan Sawasdee of Chulalongkorn University said the government needs the cooperation of the military, but the army may be reluctant to use force against the protesters.

Thailand’s military has traditionally played a major role in politics, staging almost a score of coups since the country became a constitutional monarchy in 1932.

On Saturday afternoon, army spokesman Col. Sansern Kaewkamnerd said the military planned to clear out the protesters from their original rally site in the old section of Bangkok by dusk. More troops were also sent to the second rally site in the heart of Bangkok’s upscale shopping district. The city’s elevated mass transit system known as the Skytrain, which runs past that site, stopped running and closed all its stations.

The deployment came after protesters were pushed back by water cannons and rubber bullets from the headquarters of the 1st Army Region. Although they have two main rally sites, the Red Shirts use trucks and motorcycles to send followers all over the city on short notice.

Arrest warrants have been issued for 27 Red Shirt leaders, but none is known to have been taken into custody.

Merchants say the demonstrations have cost them hundreds of millions of baht (tens of millions of dollars), and luxury hotels near the site have been under virtual siege.
 

sammsky1

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I know Thailand very well having lived in Bangkok twice before. This situation really concerns me now. Im Singapore based right now and was due to do a shoot in Bangkok earlier this week but it was serious enough for us to cancel. And my team is normally pragmatic in these things, knowing that sensationalism does not make a place unsafe. But the fact is Thailand is teetering the verge of a huge and bloody civil war.

For those who dont really know what going on: The Red's are Tahkian party and represent the lower middle class and the poor which is about 65% of teh Thai population. Thaksin won an election but was then thrown out of Government and replaced by a military backed Government led of the 'yellows' - who represent the upper middle class and rich including the sycophants who benefit from association with the King.

All the Reds want is a fair and democratic election. I have alot of sympathy for them. The yellow shirted Bangkok based elitists consider the Reds too thick to vote and so think democratic voting should be null and void.

Things really will come to a head when the King dies. Already very much is his last years, it would be no surprise if he died tomorrow. And should he do so, it will open a pandora's box full of explosives. Make no doubt about it, this has all the elements of being the most bloody civil war in modern history.
 

sglowrider

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Oh... I didnt think the King was in such poor health. Thought he was getting on a bit but not this bad.

You think it was the King or his court people that pulled the trigger on Thaksin?
 

sammsky1

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Oh... I didnt think the King was in such poor health. Thought he was getting on a bit but not this bad.

You think it was the King or his court people that pulled the trigger on Thaksin?
Defo his court people.

The King has been very clever in how he has brainwashed the people of Thailand into believing his neutrality. Blasphemy against the King is the WORST crime any Thai can commit and are punished severely when they do. And the lifestyle he and his cronies lead in beyond imagination.

A vert simple rendition of my theory is that the Yellow shirts are his party and enforcers. You cant have the Red shirts in power too long as the end point of that will ultimately lead to the role of the monarcy being question and then quickly being disbanded.

The Thai's are one of the most class conscious races alive today. It is in the Kings deepest interests not to have democracy nor the red shirts in power. Brainwashed Thais will argue against me, but they are just a product of their upbringing. Its all a complete sham.

Yes, The King is very old and in very bad health. He is very much is his last days.
 

sammsky1

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Bangkok clashes death toll climbs to 18, with 800 hurt


Bangkok death toll climbs to 18

At least 18 people are now known to have died in clashes between Thai troops and opposition supporters in Bangkok, and more than 800 were hurt. The worst violence came when soldiers and police made an unsuccessful attempt to retake an area held by opposition supporters on Saturday evening. They fired tear gas and rubber bullets while protesters hurled petrol bombs, in the deadliest violence in 18 years. At the height of the confrontation, live rounds were reportedly fired. The army then called for a truce, saying its troops were pulling back. At least four soldiers were among the dead.

The army were firing live rounds on civilians. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself Paul, British teacher

Hundreds of red-shirted opposition supporters also reportedly forced their way into government offices in the northern cities of Chiang Mai and Udon Thani in protest at the crackdown in the Thai capital. Both the security services and Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's government had promised to show restraint in dealing with the demonstrators in order to avoid a repeat of last year's riots, when two protesters were killed. But the BBC's Quentin Sommerville in Bangkok says the deaths of so many more in Saturday's clashes can only mean greater political uncertainty for the country.

Reports from Bangkok on Sunday morning said the city of 15 million appeared to be calm as an unofficial truce took hold. Many rural dwellers and urban poor support red-shirts, while yellow-shirts comprise mainly middle classes and urban elite

In September 2008 yellows rally against government, reds counter-rally, clashes in Bangkok
Yellows blockade airport in November 2008, government collapses, yellow-friendly government installed. In April 2009 red protests halt Asean summit, two people die in Bangkok clashes, rallies called off. Reds relaunch protests in March 2010, splash blood on government buildings, march on parliament

The protesters, who want the government to call new elections, have been camped out in parts of the city for a month. Hundreds of soldiers and riot police advanced after nightfall on one of the red-shirt camps, near Phan Fah bridge and Rajdumnoen road, close to several government buildings and a UN office. Local media say both sides fired weapons and detonated explosive devices in the clashes which ensued. Television footage showed chaotic scenes, with clouds of tear gas enveloping the streets.

Paul, a British teacher who lives in Thailand, told the BBC he had been in a crowd of protesters across the road from the Khao San intersection when he saw a man of about 50 being shot in the chest as he waved a flag from a pick-up truck. "The army were firing live rounds on civilians," he said. "I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself."

Shortly before midnight, Prime Minister Vejjajiva went on national television to say troops had halted their operation and express his "regret" to families of victims. Soldiers, he insisted, would only have fired live rounds "into the air and in self-defence. The government and I are still responsible for easing the situation and trying to bring peace and order to the country," he added.

Earlier confrontations left several people with gunshot wounds

An army spokesman, Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd, accused some protesters of using live bullets and grenades. Red-shirt leader Jatuporn Prompan called on King Bhumibol Adulyadej to intervene after Saturday's violence, saying it was the "way to prevent further deaths".

The red-shirts - a loose coalition of left-wing activists and supporters of exiled former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra - want Mr Abhisit to dissolve parliament and call an election. They say Mr Abhisit came to power illegitimately in a parliamentary vote after a pro-Thaksin government was forced to step down in 2008. Mr Thaksin was ousted in a military coup in 2006. They have vowed to defy the state of emergency declared on Wednesday with more rallies. Arrest warrants have been issued for several of the protest leaders.
Washington has urged both sides to show restraint.

"We deplore this outbreak of political violence in Thailand, our long-term friend and ally, and urge good faith negotiations by the parties to resolve outstanding issues through peaceful means," White House spokesman Mike Hammer said. Editorials in Bangkok newspapers on Sunday also called for urgent talks between the government and the red-shirts to end the violence. The Nation daily newspaper called the violence "our darkest hour. Yesterday's bloodbath is a wake-up call to halt the slide towards anarchy," it said in a front-page commentary.
 

sglowrider

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Defo his court people.

The King has been very clever in how he has brainwashed the people of Thailand into believing his neutrality. Blasphemy against the King is the WORST crime any Thai can commit and are punished severely when they do. And the lifestyle he and his cronies lead in beyond imagination.

A vert simple rendition of my theory is that the Yellow shirts are his party and enforcers. You cant have the Red shirts in power too long as the end point of that will ultimately lead to the role of the monarcy being question and then quickly being disbanded.

The Thai's are one of the most class conscious races alive today. It is in the Kings deepest interests not to have democracy nor the red shirts in power. Brainwashed Thais will argue against me, but they are just a product of their upbringing. Its all a complete sham.

Yes, The King is very old and in very bad health. He is very much is his last days.
I never understood it over there -- its the modern day socialisation process you used to get with the Nazis or still do with North Korea. They always talk about his bloody charity work and how much he sacrificed etc.

Some do speak up a bit occassionally but only after going down on them and when you come up for fresh air. ;)

Have you met any members of the intelligentsia in Bangkok who would say anything? Its always fascinating for me how people with a level of intelligence or so brain-washed that they cant see it when its in front of their own eyes. Its an interesting process and phenomena really.
 

sin65

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I just got back from Bangkok on Friday afternoon. We stayed in and around the main areas populated by the protesters near Siam square. The atmosphere was pretty much that of a street festival, they were happy to talk to us and have their photos taken.
I think the government expected them to disappear quickly but instead they've set up camp and the main siam shopping centers have stayed shut. Saying that, the MBK is opposite Siam Discovery and that is open and doing good business.

Saying hotels were under siege is rubbish, people were happily coming and going. The local police were mixing with the protesters and some even had red insignia around their clothing. The areas were surrounded with pickups containing sound systems with music and dancing. It was pretty obvious the authorities were going to get fed up with them being there sooner or later.

There were some incidents earlier in the week with a grenade but the word amongst the protesters was that it was a set up to stir media coverage against them so the government could make a move.

I can see it getting bad because the red shirts are committed, a lot of them are local workers who do their shifts then go to the protest for a few hours before getting some sleep.

I don't know too much about the situation with the King but one of the Thais I was speaking to whispered that the King was being given bad advise but he still was truly loyal to him.

It's a sad state of affairs.
 

Rood

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I flew out of Bangkok just a few days ago - they had called state of emergency the day before we left and it was a bit ominous to see the army all rolling in and taking positions around the city.

Not really sure how they can sort it all out - even when they have an election then the losing side claim is was a fix and the protests start again!
 

VidaRed

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didn't his wife throw a party and show up naked ? saw an article about it some time ago...the video was apparently leaked onto the internet.
 

sglowrider

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The magic hands of Thaksin is obvious behind the Reds but there is a rumour that he is undergoing chemotherapy somewhere in Europe.

The plot thickens...
 

kuanteen

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Defo his court people.

The King has been very clever in how he has brainwashed the people of Thailand into believing his neutrality. Blasphemy against the King is the WORST crime any Thai can commit and are punished severely when they do. And the lifestyle he and his cronies lead in beyond imagination.

A vert simple rendition of my theory is that the Yellow shirts are his party and enforcers. You cant have the Red shirts in power too long as the end point of that will ultimately lead to the role of the monarcy being question and then quickly being disbanded.

The Thai's are one of the most class conscious races alive today. It is in the Kings deepest interests not to have democracy nor the red shirts in power. Brainwashed Thais will argue against me, but they are just a product of their upbringing. Its all a complete sham.

Yes, The King is very old and in very bad health. He is very much is his last days.
Shush. We Thais can't talk about these things!
 

kuanteen

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found it

how does he expect to become king with this hanging over his head ?
This doesn't exist! Shush!

EDIT-Just realized that if I left the link there I would be guilty under the Thai Cybercrime Law even though I'm not in Thailand at the moment....so, the link that doesn't exist has been removed! Hope a Thai court doesn't force you all to divulge IP addresses (and hoping that you wouldn't care about a Thai court's authority)

And most of all hope I don't go home to find RedCafe blocked.
 

kuanteen

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I urge everyone to take a deeper look into Thai politics because it can be very interesting and complicated if one likes these things. Much more exciting than British politics in my opinion.

Basically at any given time, there will be more factions and more actors than what the media will have you believe. Lots of these people are behind-the-scenes people working in their private and privileged circles. This is the fun part when the various commentators will try to analyze and predict what the various factions will do and anticipate future events.

The culture of Thai people and the whole socioeconomic background is really the cause of the political problems. Corruption is a culture, impunity is a culture, and there is definitely a lack of rule of law which is really why Thailand is not fulfilling our economic potential. We are the gateway to Southeast Asia, we have a pretty skilled workforce, our educational system is improving, our infrastructure is pretty good, and we even have free healthcare at a decent standard.

In the end even Thaksin and Gen Prem the privy councillors are both puppet masters and pawns. No one really controls this country (as in any other) and I really hope that one day the real people who control this country will be the people.
 

sglowrider

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I urge everyone to take a deeper look into Thai politics because it can be very interesting and complicated if one likes these things. Much more exciting than British politics in my opinion.

Basically at any given time, there will be more factions and more actors than what the media will have you believe. Lots of these people are behind-the-scenes people working in their private and privileged circles. This is the fun part when the various commentators will try to analyze and predict what the various factions will do and anticipate future events.

The culture of Thai people and the whole socioeconomic background is really the cause of the political problems. Corruption is a culture, impunity is a culture, and there is definitely a lack of rule of law which is really why Thailand is not fulfilling our economic potential. We are the gateway to Southeast Asia, we have a pretty skilled workforce, our educational system is improving, our infrastructure is pretty good, and we even have free healthcare at a decent standard.

In the end even Thaksin and Gen Prem the privy councillors are both puppet masters and pawns. No one really controls this country (as in any other) and I really hope that one day the real people who control this country will be the people.
There are many countries like that -- puppet masters and pawns the same time. A symbiotic relationships... so they have a Mutual assured destruction (MAD) relationship.

The problem with Thailand is that there is no stability and visibility in doing business there. Look how many govt changes you have had since WW2?Thaksin was actually good and pro-business despite what the up-country people's image of him.

I honestly think the Royal Family is being used as reasons for the paralysis. Its like some mythical family of do-gooders that doesnt exist in reality. So no body wants to make drastic changes in case it goes against the Royal Court. With all that silence, you have perceived reality of whats going on.

Thailand imo, has fallen behind and has not recovered since the Current Crisis. It has to have painful structural changes to work itself back into regional relevance.

Great country and wonderful people. Too bad about the politics and the royal family.
 

McLovin

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Drama in Bangkok as Red Shirt leaders escape police through hotel window
Times Online

(AFP)
'Red Shirt' anti-government leader Arisman Pongruanrong is helped to flee arrest
The protests crippling Bangkok and threatening the Government of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva took another twist today when the leader of the anti-government Red Shirts fled police surrounding his hotel by climbing through a window into a waiting car.

His dramatic escape was followed shortly afterward by his supporters taking two police officers hostage.

Arisman Pongruanrong scaled down the facade of his hotel on a rope ladder into a getaway car moments after the government vowed to hunt down Red Shirt “terrorists”.

A second protest leader was seen climbing out of a hotel window and down a tree. It was not immediately clear if he escaped.

RELATED LINKS
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Fifteen die as troops turn on protesters
Minutes later, a police spokesman said that a police colonel and a police major general were being held by supporters of Mr Arisman. Mr Arisman confirmed that two officers had been taken hostage “to guarantee our safety.”

Mr Arisman’s escape was a major embarrassment to the government. Minutes earlier, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban announced on national television that a unit of special forces had encircled the SC Park Hotel in the Thai capital where Arisman and other Red Shirt protest leaders were holed up.

“As I speak, a special force unit has been sent to SC Park Hotel, where some of these terrorists and leaders are staying,” said Mr Suthep.

The crackdown signalled the government was willing to risk another confrontation with the anti-government protesters who are campaigning to oust Mr Abhisit, dissolve Parliament and hold new elections.

Thousands of Red Shirt, mostly rural poor, have taken over the business and shopping district of Bangkok for the last month. When troops tried to clear them from the heart of historic Bangkok last weekend, violence broke out leaving 24 people dead and more than 800 injured.

Mr Suthep said there were “clear terrorist elements within the demonstration” and accused the protesters of using “war weapons.”

“I would like to ask innocent protesters to leave the demonstration area, in order to avoid being used as human shields,” Mr Suthep said. “The Government from now on would like to carry out decisive legal measures against the Red Shirt leaders.

“We’re worried that the terrorists would intentionally harm protesters to create chaos and incite unrest,” he said, adding that the Government is coordinating with various security agencies to arrest the Red Shirt leaders.

Mr Abhisit came to power last year as the result of a coalition formed after the military coup which deposed Thaksin Shinawatra in 2006.

Mr Abhisit’s Democrat Party has never won an election under his leadership. The Red Shirts are challenging him to dissolve parliament and face Thaksin’s supporters at the ballot box in early elections.

Under the constitution Mr Abhisit must call an election by the end of next year but he insists that he will go to the country early only if it will benefit the nation as a whole.

The drama came as Thailand protested to the Australian Government over the airing of a documentary critical of the Thai royal family and warned that the broadcast could affect ties between the nations.

A senior representative from the Thai embassy met officials from Australia’s Department of Foreign Affairs on Thursday to express his concern at the programme aired by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

“The concern is that it might affect the good relations between Thailand and Australia, especially the people to people relations,” Saksee Phromyothi, minister-counsellor at the Royal Thai Embassy said.

“We consider this an issue matter of national security... because the royal family, the monarchy, in our constitution is above politics.”

Thailand’s ambassador designate Kriangsak Kittichaisaree has also written to ABC managing director Mark Scott to complain about the programme which could breach Thailand’s lèse-majesté laws that prohibit criticism of the royals.

“I regret that an organisation of the ABC’s stature has lowered its own standard by airing the said documentary which is presented in a manner no different from tabloid journalism,” he wrote



'Special forces', eh?!
 

sglowrider

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This situation is somewhat of a clash of classes -- working rural poor supported by a billionaire and the middle class urbanites.

I can see this happening in other parts of the world. This is the future of cultural clashes.
 

KanieKaned

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Thai Protesters Brace for Crackdown After Abhisit Rejects Election Offer - Bloomberg

Thai Protesters Brace for Crackdown After Abhisit Rejects Election Offer
By Daniel Ten Kate and Suttinee Yuvejwattana - Apr 25, 2010 Email Share Print
Thai protesters readied themselves for a military offensive on the Bangkok business district they have shut down for 23 days after Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva called off peace talks and pledged to disperse them.

“We aim to return the site to the public,” Abhisit said in a nationally televised address yesterday with army chief Anupong Paojinda at his side. “We shouldn’t set the precedent that threatening and using force will lead to political gains.”

Abhisit two days ago dismissed the protest group’s offer to hold an election three months from now, a change from their demand for an immediate nationwide vote. About 80,000 police and soldiers were preparing to retake the site this morning, the protest group said in a text message.

The protracted stalemate threatens to scare away tourists and deter investment as hotels, shopping malls and offices within the demonstration site shut their doors. Thailand’s SET Index of stocks has dropped 4.2 percent this month, Asia’s worst performer, as overseas investors withdraw funds.

Foreigners on April 23 sold a net 2.33 billion baht ($72.3 million) of stock, the most net selling in five months. A grenade attack the previous night on an elevated train line killed one and injured at least 78 people. On April 10, a failed attempt to disperse the group claimed 25 lives. The government and protesters blame each other for the deaths.

“Concern the protests will be prolonged has increased speculation that foreign investors will pull funds out of Thailand, dragging down stocks and the baht,” said Tohru Nishihama, an economist at Dai-ichi Life Research Institute Inc. in Tokyo. “Investors will worry more about the impact on the domestic economy as the chaotic situation continues.”

Drag on Economy

Government agencies may revise their economic forecasts as tourists cancel trips and foreign companies delay investments, Abhisit said yesterday. Japanese investors, Thailand’s biggest source of foreign direct investment, have delayed plans to expand factories and plants in Thailand, Amata Corp. Pcl, the nation’s largest industrial developer, said last week.

The demonstrators, who largely support fugitive ex-leader Thaksin Shinawatra, reinforced bamboo barricades with seven-high stacks of rubber tires that were covered in small strips of cloth. Several oil canisters sat behind one of the walls, which block off an area roughly the size of New York’s Central Park.

Demonstration leaders told supporters to stop wearing the red shirts that have symbolized their protests to avoid being stopped at police checkpoints. Protesters in provincial areas blocked several roads to prevent security forces from reaching the capital, state-run news agency MCOT reported.

‘Civil War’

A crackdown on protesters that carries a high death toll may lead to a civil war, protest leader Weng Tojirakarn said in an interview yesterday. The group has no weapons and isn’t affiliated with sympathizers who may use violence, he said.

“This time maybe 76 provinces all over the country, they will do guerrilla warfare or civil war” if protesters are dispersed, Weng said. The situation would be similar to the Muslim separatist violence in Thailand’s southernmost provinces that has killed more than 4,000 people since 2004, he said.

“Our proposal was very clear cut that we would like to stop more loss, death or injuries,” Weng said. “So when Abhisit rejected that it immediately implied that the government would like to start killing again.”

A rival group that took over Bangkok’s airports in 2008 to elevate Abhisit to power will meet today. The People’s Alliance for Democracy aims to pressure the premier into reshuffling military or police officials if they are not responding to orders, spokesman Parnthep Pourpongpan said by phone yesterday.

Army Unified

“We want the protesters to know that there are so many people against them,” he said.

Army chief Anupong said yesterday the army remains unified and would follow government policy. Ex-soldiers within the protest group may be responsible for the violent clashes earlier this month, he said.

Troops remain near the protest site at Silom Road, a commercial artery. Buildings near the protest area hold offices for Wells Fargo & Co., HSBC Holdings and Rolls-Royce Group Plc.

Thousands of protesters walked through the site yesterday, dancing to music, listening to speeches, playing carnival games and watching videos featuring Thaksin, whose ouster in a 2006 coup led to the current instability. Demonstrators hung clothes outside the Grand Hyatt Erawan hotel and raw sewage leaked from portable toilets set up near the Four Seasons.

Pro-Thaksin parties have won the past four elections on a platform of improved health care and cheap loans. Abhisit took power in a December 2008 parliamentary vote after a court disbanded the ruling party for election fraud. His Democrat party hasn’t won a nationwide vote since 1992.
 

KanieKaned

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Yeah its certainly coming alright, by the looks of it if it "was" to last another month Abhisit would surely have to step down and parliament be dissolved.

Plenty of clashes again now that Song Kran is out of the way it was all rosey for those few days. The Military trying to stop any further protestors getting into the Ratchatsprong campsite and likewise the Red Shirts are trying to keep more military out is a right pickle for both sides.

Also reports one of the reds shirt leaders was captured early today i think when reds clashed a military checkpoint i think it was no confirmation from the reds yet though.

The setup they have down there is quite impressive for basically a load of farmers living it rough in the streets of bangkok, but they also have a fair bit of fire power themselves with the ex military heads knocking about with em.
 

EZee

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just got back from there...

the trouble is very isolated...

my guess is the army wont go in when ordered and there will be elections called... hopefully a pretty peaceful affair

just my guess but thats the vibe i got wheni was there
 

KanieKaned

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more on the news today, saying the army may go in tonight if the red shirts dont agree to move by the looks of it the army are going to go for it in the next couple of days, must get onto my mate living over there and see what the deal is he lives quite close to where they are camped out i stayed 5 minutes away from it aswel when i was there last week
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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Thai red-shirt supporter Gen Khattiya assassinated?


KHATTIYA SAWASDIPOL
# Describes himself as a key military adviser to the red-shirts.
# Suspended from duty in the Thai army where he has the rank of major-general.
# Dubbed Seh Daeng (English: Commander Red), enjoys a **** following among the opposition's radical wing.
# Aged 58, has likened himself to the Mel Gibson character in the film Braveheart.

A renegade Thai general who backs anti-government protesters has been shot, shortly after a deadline for troops to seal their Bangkok protest camp passed.

Khattiya Sawasdipol, better known as Seh Daeng (Commander Red), was shot in the head and seriously injured.

In clashes later, a protester was shot dead. The army has moved to seal off the protesters' large camp.

A state of emergency in place in the capital and surrounding areas is to be extended to 15 other provinces.

The BBC's Rachel Harvey in Bangkok says all talk of reconciliation and election timetables has been abandoned and the Thai capital is braced for further bloodshed.

The US has closed its embassy in Bangkok saying it is "very concerned" - and the UK also said it was closing its embassy on Friday because of the situation.

'Military strategist'

People were earlier urged to leave the area near the protesters' sprawling camp, and shops and businesses were advised to close before the 1800 (1100 GMT) deadline passed. Public transport was suspended in the area.

Some time after the deadline had passed, a volley of shots rang out and an explosion was heard.

Then reports came that Seh Daeng had been shot and rushed to hospital.

He is a suspended army officer who describes himself as the red-shirts' military strategist.

Seh Daeng is part of the protesters' more radical wing and had accused red-shirt leaders - many of whom have distanced themselves from him - of not being hard-line enough.

Circumstances surrounding the shooting, near the Silom business area, are not clear.

However, the New York Times reported that Seh Daeng was shot in the head during an interview with one of its reporters.

Sean Boonpracong, international spokesman for the red-shirt movement, told the BBC he believed an army sniper had shot the general.

A military spokesman, Col Sansern Kaewkumnerd, had earlier warned that sharpshooters armed with live ammunition would move into position in the area.

Government spokesman Panitan Wattanayagorn told the BBC that troops could only use their weapons in self-defence.

He said any "unusual" engagement would be investigated.

The second, and fatal, shooting happened as a group of more than 100 protesters advanced towards security forces, our correspondent says.

Street lights have been switched off in the protesters' camp, plunging parts of it into darkness, but they continue to defiantly blast out music, she adds.

Earlier in the day BBC reporters saw trucks unloading heavily-armed soldiers several blocks from the encampment, and later a group of about 200 soldiers moving towards it.

The decree extending the state of emergency to a further 15 provinces gives the army broad powers to deal with protesters.

Mr Panitan said the new measures were intended to prevent "masses of people trying to come to Bangkok".

Elections demanded

The protesters - who have been occupying parts of Bangkok for more than two months - want Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva to dissolve parliament and call fresh elections.

Their camp stretches from the city's shopping district south to its business hub.

Mr Abhisit is under severe pressure to end the protests, which have paralysed Bangkok since 14 March.

He had offered polls on 14 November - but the two sides failed to agree a deal because of divisions over who should be held accountable for a deadly crackdown on protests last month.

The 10 April operation left 19 protesters, one journalist and five soldiers dead.

BBC News - Thai red-shirt supporter Gen Khattiya shot
 

sglowrider

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Well... Bangkok is the centre of the anti-Thaksin movement -- representing the middle-class, royals, intelligentsia etc who certainly didn't like the country bumpkin done good billionaire. His power bases are all up-country and especially in cities like Chiang Mai (where he is from, I think.) So I dont think there is much to protest there.

I know that this situation has progressed beyond a Thaksin protest -- but I am surprised the business establishment hasnt done more to clear this us ASAP. Thaksin has always been good for business.
 

sglowrider

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May 15, 2010
Thailand’s King Sees His Influence Fading

By SETH MYDANS and THOMAS FULLER

BANGKOK — A battle over Thailand’s future is raging, but the one man who has been able to resolve such intractable conflicts in the past has been notably silent: King Bhumibol Adulyadej, long a unifying father figure for his nation.

Thailand is convulsed by a bitter struggle between the nation’s elite and its disenfranchised poor, played out in protests that have paralyzed Bangkok for weeks and now threaten to expand. The ailing 82-year-old king finds his power to sway events ebbing as the fight continues over the shape of a post-Bhumibol Thailand.

“It’s much bigger than the issue of succession,” said Charles Keyes, an expert on Thailand at the University of Washington in Seattle. “It’s a collapse of the political consensus that the monarchy has helped maintain.”

As his country suffers through its worst political crisis in decades, the king has disappointed many Thais by saying nothing that might calm the turmoil, as he did in 1973 and 1992 when with a few quiet words he halted eruptions of political bloodletting.

For more than two months now, demonstrators known as the red shirts, who represent in part the aspirations of the rural and urban poor, have occupied parts of Bangkok, forcing major malls and hotels to close as they demand that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva dissolve Parliament and hold a new election. Soldiers and protesters continued battling Saturday.

After taking the throne nearly 64 years ago, King Bhumibol expanded his role as a constitutional monarch without political power into an enormous moral force, earned through his civic work and political astuteness. He has also presided over an expansion of the royal family’s now vast business holdings. With the monarchy at its heart, an elite royalist class grew up including the bureaucracy, the military and entrenched business interests. A palace Privy Council has exerted power during the current crisis.

It is this elite class that the protesters are now challenging.

Those who seek to maintain the status quo have proclaimed themselves loyal to the king and have accused the red shirts of trying to destroy the monarchy as they seek changes in Thai society. For their part, most red shirts say they respect the king but want changes in the system he helped create.

The politicization of the king’s name “has ensured that the monarchy cannot play a central conciliatory role any more,” said Chris Baker, a British historian of Thailand.

More broadly, the divisions in society may have become too deep and the anger too hot to reconcile for years to come. Many analysts say a lasting class conflict has been ignited between the country’s awakening rural masses and its elite hierarchy. With the king confined to a hospital since September with lung inflammation and other ailments, concern about the future has sharpened. The heir apparent to the throne, Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn, has not inherited his father’s popularity.

But discussion about the succession and about the future role of the monarchy are constricted to whispers and forbidden Internet sites by a severe lèse-majesté law. A 15-year penalty for anyone who “defames, insults or threatens the king, queen, the heir apparent or the regent” has been broadly interpreted in cases brought against writers, academics, activists, and both foreign and local journalists.

Though it is the protesters who are pressing for change, including some who may see a republican form of government in the future, it is a leading member of the establishment party that now rules Thailand who put the issue into its plainest terms.

“We should be brave enough to go through all of this and even talk about the taboo subject of monarchy,” said Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya, in a speech last month that he gave, significantly, outside Thailand at the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies in Washington. “I think we have to talk about the institution of the monarchy, how would it have to reform itself to the modern globalized world.”

He spoke of Britain and the Netherlands as models, with constitutional monarchs who play a largely symbolic role.

On paper at least, those models are not so very different from the system now in place in Thailand. What sets King Bhumibol apart is the aura that surrounds him and the faith among many people that when things are really bad, he will step forward to save them from themselves.

In a way, what some Thais are saying now is simply that it is time for the king’s “children” to grow up and solve their problems themselves.

“There might still be people in Thai society that want to see the king play a role in resolving the crisis,” said Jon Ungpakorn, a former senator and one of the nation’s most vocal advocates for democracy.

“But on the other side, a large section of society realizes that we should not depend on the monarchy for resolving crises,” he said. “If we are to be a democratic system, we must learn to deal with our problems ourselves.”

During weeks of street demonstrations, protesters have assiduously asserted their patriotism. But unlike other protests in the city, there has been a conspicuous absence of portraits of the king. Among both residents of the northeast, the country’s rural heartland, and the red-shirt protesters in Bangkok — many of whom have traveled back and forth in shifts — a new, less reverent tone has quietly crept into conversations.

Krasae Chanawongse, a medical doctor and former government minister in the northeast who is a strong monarchist, laments that “many people are talking about destroying the monarchy.”

But protest leaders insist that they are not challenging the king but the system that is built around him.

“Real democracy would have the king at the top, with no elite class to interfere,” said a protest leader, Nattawut Saikua, in an interview.

Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra had built an electoral base among the country’s poor majority, who also form the base of the red-shirt protesters, threatening the traditional supremacy of the old guard. A coup in 2006 that ousted Mr. Thaksin is believed to have had at least the tacit approval of the Privy Council and other elites who saw the prime minister and his base as a challenge to their power. The red shirts have demanded a new election that could bring back Mr. Thaksin, now abroad fleeing a prison sentence for corruption.

Whoever succeeds King Bhumibol, the veneration and the place the king holds at the heart of Thai society are unlikely to survive him.

“In private discussions people say to each other, ‘What will we do without him?’ ” said a prominent poet who, like many people speaking about the monarchy, insisted on anonymity. “They get disappointed and upset and even scared about the change in the future.”

As he has grown older, concerns have risen about divisions and disputes in society that might erupt once he is gone. It appears now, with the king no longer playing the role he has in the past, that those conflicts are already under way.
News Analysis - Thailand’s King Sees His Influence Fading - NYTimes.com
 

Iron Stove

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The Red Shirt leaders have apparently given up, but there is chaos and a curfew in Bangkok today. Fires in Central World and Siam Paragon.

I don't claim to know enough to have an opinion on who is right or wrong here but I have a hard time believing that the Red Shirts and Thaksin are the "democratic" saviours of Thailand.
 

kuanteen

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The Red Shirt leaders have apparently given up, but there is chaos and a curfew in Bangkok today. Fires in Central World and Siam Paragon.

I don't claim to know enough to have an opinion on who is right or wrong here but I have a hard time believing that the Red Shirts and Thaksin are the "democratic" saviours of Thailand.
Neither is Abhisit. Thailand has no one saviour except us Thai people. We have to build democracy for ourselves.

The problem is that since the 2006 coup, the rules of the game changed--there are no more rules, no more limits. Constitutions are just pieces of toilet paper, so the first thing all Thais have to build is an agreement about fair rules that everyone will respect...its been far too much of a battle of attrition where the winner takes all
 

Iron Stove

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Neither is Abhisit. Thailand has no one saviour except us Thai people. We have to build democracy for ourselves.

The problem is that since the 2006 coup, the rules of the game changed--there are no more rules, no more limits. Constitutions are just pieces of toilet paper, so the first thing all Thais have to build is an agreement about fair rules that everyone will respect...its been far too much of a battle of attrition where the winner takes all
Yes I agree.. there isn't any winner in all of this and there are no saints on either side.

Here's a great article I found on the matter and the foreign reporting of events in particular.


Tuesday, May 18, 2010

Don't Blame Dan Rivers

I have been composing a long, day by day account of the "troubles" of the last three days, which I have not yet posted. The reason is that I've been getting a lot of mail asking me to explain "the truth" to people overseas. A lot of people here are astonished and appalled at the level of irresponsibility and inaccuracy shown by such major news sources as CNN, and are imputing the most astonishing motives to this, such as suggesting that they're in the pay of Thaksin and so on.


I don't think this is really what is going on. Rather, I think that there are two basic problems: preconception and language.


CNN first became a force to be reckoned with during the "People Power" movement in the Philippines. The kind of coverage we had for this was amazing. There was a camera in every camp, and we could follow this exciting revolution every step of the way. We knew exactly who to root for: the oppressed masses led by the widow of the iconic Aquino, and we knew that whenever President Marcos appeared he was Darth Vader, the symbol of an evil empire. The arc of the story was simple and inexorable. A whole new way of looking at the news was born, with all the excitement of a TV miniseries and, prophetically, a reality show as well.


Of course, many of the little details of the story were conveniently glossed over. Reality was not — never is — so black and white. But there are three important things about this story: first, in its essentials, there was a lot of truth. And all the protagonists spoke English.


The Philippines, as Filipinos never tire of telling me, is the third most populous English speaking country in the world. We will leave the definition of "English-speaking" to another blog, but it's very important that the various sides in this conflict were able to articulate their viewpoints in a language which CNN well understood.


The third important thing about the story is that it fulfilled a vision of history that is an inseparable part of the inheritance of western culture, that is so ingrained in western thinking that it is virtually impossible for an educated member of western society to divorce himself from it.


It is a vision of history as a series of liberations. From Harmodius and Aristogeiton throwing off the tyrant's yoke to the removal of the Tarquins and the establishment of the Roman Republic to the failed rebellion of Spartacus, from Magna Carta to the Bastille to the American Civil War to the Russian Revolution, there is this Platonic Model against which these big historical movements are always compared. There is a bad guy — often a dictator — who can be demonized. There is a struggling proletariat. The end comes with "liberty and justice for all". This is Star Wars. The dark times. The Empire.


The "People Power" coverage was riveting, compelling, and contained all the emotional components of this mythical story arc. Finding another such story, therefore, is a kind of Holy Grail for the international media. When a story comes that appears to contain some of the elements, and it's too much hard work to verify those elements or get all the background detail, you go with the Great Archetype of Western Civilization.


Now, let us consider the redshirt conflict.


Let's not consider what has actually been happening in Thailand, but how it looks to someone whose worldview has been coloured with this particular view of history.


Let's consider the fact that there is pretty much nothing being explained in English, and that there are perhaps a dozen foreigners who really understand Thai thoroughly. I don't mean Thai for shopping, bargirls, casual conversation and the like. Thai is a highly ambiguous language and is particularly well suited for seeming to say opposite things simultaneously. To get what is really being said takes total immersion.


When you watch a red shirt rally, notice how many English signs and placards there are, and note that they they are designed to show that these are events conforming to the archetype. The placards say "Democracy", "No Violence," "Stop killing innocent women and children" and so on. Speakers are passionately orating, crowds are moved. But there are no subtitles. What does it look like?


The answer is obvious. It looks like oppressed masses demanding freedom from an evil dictator.


Don't blame Dan Rivers, et al, who are only doing what they are paid to do: find the compelling story within the mass of incomprehensible data, match that story to what the audience already knows and believes, and make sure the advertising money keeps flowing in.


A vigorous counter-propaganda campaign in clear and simple English words of one syllable has always been lacking and is the reason the government is losing the Page Ranking war while actually following the most logical steps toward a real and lasting resolution.


If the foreign press were in fact able to speak Thai well enough to follow all the reportage here coming from all sides, they would also be including some of the following information in their reports. I want to insist yet again that I am not siding with anyone. The following is just information that people really need before they write their news reports.


-- Thaksin was democratically elected, but became increasingly undemocratic, and the country gradually devolved from a nation where oligarchs skimmed off the top to a kleptocracy of one. During his watch, thousands of people were summarily executed in the South of Thailand and in a bizarre "war on drugs" in which body count was considered a marker of success.


-- the coup that ousted Thaksin was of course completely illegal, but none of the people who carried it out are in the present government.


-- the yellow shirts' greatest error in moulding its international image was to elevate Thaksin's corruption as its major bone of contention. Thai governments have always been corrupt. The extent of corruption and the fact that much of it went into only one pocket was shocking to Thais, but the west views all "second-rate countries" as being corrupt. Had they used the human rights violations and muzzling of the press as their key talking points, the "heroic revolution" archetype would have been moulded with opposite protagonists, and CNN and BBC would be telling an opposite story today.


-- the constitution which was approved by a referendum after the coup and which brought back democracy was flawed, but it provided more checks and balances, and made election fraud a truly accountable offense for the first time.


-- the parliamentary process by which the Democrat coalition came to power was the same process by which the Lib Dems and Tories have attained power in Britain. The parliament that voted in this government consists entirely of democratically elected members.


-- no one ever disputed the red shirts' right to peaceful assembly, and the government went out of its way to accede to their demands.


-- this country already has democracy. Not a perfect one, but the idea of "demanding democracry" is sheer fantasy


-- the yellow shirts did not succeed in getting any of their demands from the government. The last two governments changed because key figures were shown to have committed election fraud. They simply did not take their own constitution seriously enough to follow it.


-- the red TV station has a perfect right to exist, but if foreign journalists actually understood Thai, they would realize that much of its content went far beyond any constitutionally acceptable limits of "protected speech" in a western democracy. Every civilized society limits speech when it actually harms others, whether by inciting hate or by slander. The government may have been wrong to brusquely pull the plug, but was certainly right to cry foul. It should have sought an injunction first. Example: Arisman threatened to destroy mosques, government buildings, and "all institutions you hold sacred" ... a clip widely seen on youtube, without subtitles. Without subtitles, it looks like "liberty, equality, fraternity".


-- the army hasn't been shooting women and children ... or indeed anyone at all, except in self-defense. Otherwise this would all be over, wouldn't it? It's simple for a big army to mow down 5,000 defenseless people.


-- since the government called the red shirts' bluff and allowed the deputy P.M. to report to the authorities to hear their accusations, the red leaders have been making ever-more fanciful demands. The idea of UN intervention is patently absurd. When Thaksin killed all those Muslims and alleged drug lords, human rights groups asked the UN to intervene. When the army took over the entire country, some asked the UN to intervene. The UN doesn't intervene in the internal affairs of sovereign countries except when requested to by the country itself or when the government has completely broken down.


-- Thailand hasn't had an unbreachable gulf between rich and poor for at least 20 years. These conflicts are about the rise of the middle class, not the war between the aristocrats and the proletariat.


-- Abhisit, with his thoroughly western and somewhat liberal background, shares the values of the west and is in fact more likely to bring about the social revolution needed by Thailand's agrarian poor than any previous leader. He is, in fact, pretty red, while Thaksin, in his autocratic style of leadership, is in a way pretty yellow. Simplistic portrayals do not help anyone to understand anything.


-- the only people who do not seem to care about the reds' actual grievances are their own leaders, who are basically making everyone risk their lives to see if they can get bail.


-- the King has said all that he is constitutionally able to say when he spoke to the supreme court justices and urged them to do their duty. The western press never seem to realize that the Thai monarchy is constitutionally on the European model ... not, say, the Saudi model. The king REIGNS ... he doesn't "rule". This is a democracy. The king is supposed to symbolize all the people, not a special interest group.


The above are just a few of the elements that needed to be sorted through in order to provide a balanced view of what is happening in this country.


There is one final element that must be mentioned. Most are not even aware of it. But there is, in the western mindset, a deeply ingrained sense of the moral superiority of western culture which carries with it the idea that a third world country must by its very nature be ruled by despots, oppress peasants, and kill and torture people. Most westerners become very insulted when this is pointed out to them because our deepest prejudices are always those of which we are least aware. I believe that there is a streak of this crypto-racism in some of the reportage we are seeing in the west. It is because of this that Baghdad, Yangon, and Bangkok are being treated as the same thing. We all look alike.


Yes, this opinion is always greeted with outrage. I do my best to face my own preconceptions and don't succeed that often, but I acknowledge they exist nonetheless.


Some of the foreign press are painting the endgame as the Alamo, but it is not. It is a lot closer to Jonestown or Waco.


Like those latter two cases, a highly charismatic leader figure (in our case operating from a distance, shopping in Paris while his minions sweat in the 94°weather) has taken an inspirational idea: in one case Christianity, in the other democracy, and reinvented it so that mainstream Christians, or real democrats, can no longer recognize it. The followers are trapped. There is a siege mentality and information coming from outside is screened so that those trapped believe they will be killed if they try to leave. Women and children are being told that they are in danger if they fall into the hands of the government, and to distrust the medics and NGOs waiting to help them. There are outraged pronouncements that they're not in fact using the children as human shields, but that the parents brought them willingly to "entertain and thrill" them. There is mounting paranoia coupled with delusions of grandeur, so that the little red kingdom feels it has the right to summon the United Nations, just like any other sovereign state. The reporters in Rajprasong who are attached to the red community are as susceptible to this variant of the Stockholm syndrome as anyone else.


The international press must separate out the very real problems that the rural areas of Thailand face, which will take decades to fix, from the fact that a mob is rampaging through Bangkok, burning, looting, and firing grenades, threatening in the name of democracy to destroy what democracy yet remains in this country.


But this bad reporting is not their fault. It is our fault for not providing the facts in bite-sized pieces, in the right language, at the right time.
Somtow's World: Don't Blame Dan Rivers
 

sglowrider

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May 25, 2010
Thai Court Issues Warrant for Thaksin
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 3:52 a.m. ET

BANGKOK (AP) -- A Thai court ordered an arrest warrant Tuesday for former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra on terrorism charges, accusing the fugitive leader of fomenting two months of unrest in Bangkok that left 88 people dead.

Thaksin, who was ousted in a 2006 military coup and later fled abroad following a corruption conviction, has been accused by the government of being a key force behind protests by the so-called Red Shirts who seized areas of downtown Bangkok before being overcome by army troops last week.

Details of the charges were being read out at the Criminal Court, a day after testimony by the Department of Special Investigations into Thaksin's alleged involvement in the protests.

Shortly after the court announced its decision, Thaksin's lawyer, the London-based Robert Amsterdam, said the government ''has perverted justice through the laying of a charge that violates logic, law and any claim of hopes for reconciliation.''

At least 88 people -- mostly Red Shirts who were shot -- died in protest-related violence.

Thaksin, now based in Dubai, is regarded as a hero by many Red Shirts, mostly rural and urban poor who benefited from his populist policies. He was earlier charged with corruption and abuse of power during his 2001-2006 tenure as prime minister.

The demonstrations have deepened already wide rifts in Thai society and most analysts expect further political conflict and possibly renewed violence.

On Monday, opposition leaders moved to impeach the current Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva for his handling of rioting, and an army official said the capital would remain under curfew for another week as a precaution against further unrest.

The impeachment measure and a move to censure top Cabinet officials was expected to be easily defeated.

''The purpose of the curfew is to separate the terrorists from the public,'' said army spokesman Sansern Kaewkamnerd. He said the late hours of the curfew would not cause significant disturbances to the public.

Opposition whip Wittaya Buranasiri said the motion to impeach Abhisit was introduced by the opposition Pheu Thai Party who are allied with Thaksin.

It also sought to censure several of his top Cabinet members.

Members of the Pheu Thai allege Abhisit and his deputy prime minister abused their power in using force in their crackdown on the protests.

The Red Shirt movement, which swept into Bangkok in March, demanded that Abhisit resign and call early elections. The Red Shirts want Abhisit out because they claim he came to power illegitimately with the help of back-room deals and military pressure.

All but one of the top Red Shirt leadership were in custody Monday after the surrender of two more key figures. Another leader was expected to surrender on Tuesday.

But the nation's deputy prime minister warned the movement behind the protests is still a threat. Abhisit has also accused Red Shirt followers of planning further protests and violence.

Hoping to appease the protesters, he earlier this month offered to hold elections on Nov. 14 but that plan fell through when Red Shirt leaders made more demands. Abhisit now says elections will not be held until the threat of violence is completely quelled.

------

Associated Press writers Eric Talmadge and Denis Gray contributed to this report.