The “Ole In” Brigade

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Depend on why you sack them. If you bring in someone better the results will improve. Expected goals is a bit silly to use since confidence often can go up with a new manager which improves efficiency. Normally managers gets sacked after poor results too rather than good.
Everton sacking a good manager like koeman was one of the silly calls though. He just had bad luck with the fixtures and had stopped City too.

Depends on if the players have been trying the best, if they were already giving 100% then there’s no guarantee a better manager will get them performing any better in a short space of time.

Look at Watford, is Pearson better than the last 2 they have sacked? I don’t think so, they are all much of a muchness in my opinion. Watford have a good set of players and just need a bit of luck and some injured players to come back to start picking up some wins.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Didn't Liverpool lose 6-1 to Stoke in the last game of the season prior to Klopps appointment? They were a shambles before he joined. In his first incomplete season, he built the foundations that have seen them stay competitive.

They had a poor run but Rodgers had them playing some very nice football before that.

 

[meamth]

Wow. Your car break down? Really? We have a broken down squad? You're given 120m and you bought a broke down car?

Really?

Even in FM now you cannot buy 3 players with 120 million.

What you can get though is more unknown potentials, which I believe people like you will have patience of.

Imagine signing Minamino, Kalvin Phillips, etc.. and AWB, Maguire went to Citteh.

Ohhh the outrage here in caf.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

They had a poor run but Rodgers had them playing some very nice football before that.

Well, their record was 5-5-6 in the 16 games before Rodgers was sacked. Thats pretty shit if you ask me.

 

[JPRouve]

Really?

Even in FM now you cannot buy 3 players with 120 million.

What you can get though is more unknown potentials, which I believe people like you will have patience of.

Imagine signing Minamino, Kalvin Phillips, etc.. and AWB, Maguire went to Citteh.

Ohhh the outrage here in caf.

Ignoring the Ole debate, are you guys being serious?

 

[meamth]

Ignoring the Ole debate, are you guys being serious?

Shh. I'm trying to see the same arguments coming out proving my theory is right.

 

[He'sRaldo]

120m isn't peanuts in today's game. You can try to make a point without starting with a ridiculous claim.

For us especially, it is looking like that more and more, unfortunately. We're always quoted ridiculous prices for our targets, and I don't trust our negotiators to get good prices regularly.

Of course, we could always go for hidden bargains and release clauses, but then there's no guarantee of quality.

 

[JPRouve]

Shh. I'm trying to see the same arguments coming out proving my theory is right.

I'm sorry but I have no idea about what this means.

 

[JPRouve]

For us especially, it is looking like that more and more, unfortunately. We're always quoted ridiculous prices for our targets, and I don't trust our negotiators to get good prices regularly.

Of course, we could always go for hidden bargains and release clauses, but then there's no guarantee of quality.

That's incompetency and nothing else. It has nothing to do with 120m being peanuts, we are by some distance one of the wealthiest clubs on earth and it represents 20% of our 2018 revenues that's a massive amount of money and you can do a lot of things with it if you aren't a complete imbecile but it seems that in todays game, when clubs officials are expected to work efficiently they faint.

To make it clear, the issue today is the excess of money. Clubs used to play the market and exploit context such as contracts or player's situation in different clubs, now the wealthiest clubs don't really care, the gap between them and the rest is big enough that they will try to sign players with lengthy contracts that aren't particularly pushing for a move and are ready to pay a premium.

 

[Sky1981]

Really?

Even in FM now you cannot buy 3 players with 120 million.

What you can get though is more unknown potentials, which I believe people like you will have patience of.

Imagine signing Minamino, Kalvin Phillips, etc.. and AWB, Maguire went to Citteh.

Ohhh the outrage here in caf.

FM?

You do know we actually broke the british highest fee record, bought another 50m defender and a daniel james for a total of 120m?

 

[matherto]

You do understand Poch was sacked because of all the unrest in the dressing room, no? It's nothing to do with him not being good enough. Where do you think Poch is going to end up? The Norwegian league? I don't think so. Where do you think Ole is going to end up when he's eventually sacked? The Norwegian league? That's if he is very lucky. Is the rest of the footballing world missing something that a few can't see on the caf?

Who caused the unrest in the dressing room?

I'd be inclined to say benching Moura after him getting them to the CL final on his own against Ajax for a seriously unfit Kane wrecked the dressing room dynamic and the players realised after 4 seasons or whatever it had been that they were never gonna win anything with Poch's tactics and it finally broke.

Poch caused his own downfall, all whilst failing to win anything.

There's an obsession over this 'where would they be if they weren't United manager' thing. Nobody knows.

Fact is right now Poch doesn't have a job through his own fault and nobody is rushing to snap him up.

Meanwhile we've just won two games back to back that I was sure we would lose and we've had a really good December overall with a very inconsistent squad of players. Let's see if we reinforce in January.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Well, their record was 5-5-6 in the 16 games before Rodgers was sacked. Thats pretty shit if you ask me.

It is but he got them to 2nd as well playing some fantastic football along the way so swings and roundabouts.
I still stick by my opinion that giving managers time is better than a hiring and firing culture overall.

The person I was debating with earlier was saying Ole had to do this or that otherwise should be sacked but never actually laid out a plan for what we would do when we sack him. Obviously final responsibility lays with the manager as you can’t replace half a squad of players but if you think Ole should be replaced give your reasons and suggest a plan to move the club forward. It’s too simplistic to just say sack him if he doesn’t get top 4.

 

[Keefy18]

120m isn't peanuts in today's game. You can try to make a point without starting with a ridiculous claim.

120M got Jaoa Felix.

Longstaff at 50m.

Maguire is never an 80m CB.

This is what world of transfer these days.

It's getting more and more difficult to do sensible business within a budget.

 

[El Zoido]

I cannot see how sacking him now would do anything other than set us back and cause disruption. The team is definitely on an upward trajectory, we have a young squad that’s really now starting to come together. Not only this, but the entire club appears to be pulling in the same direction, and the players clearly like and trust the manager (something that hasn’t been the case since SAF). Personally I think we’re 2-3 players away from being really good, and I’d like to see Ole given the chance to continue to build the squad since his work so far has been rather good.

 

[JPRouve]

120M got Jaoa Felix.

Longstaff at 50m.

Maguire is never an 80m CB.

This is what world of transfer these days.

It's getting more and more difficult to do sensible business within a budget.

That's not how you determine what is peanuts and if you do then you have no clue. You are literally using record transfers and a fictitious one.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Klopp finished 8,4,4 & 2nd

Are you really gonna give him the 8th place when he joined a shambles mid-season? nar, that'd be like me doing the same for Ole, it's pointless.

The mark of a top manager was there with Klopp after his first summer, by xmas they were 2nd. Yes, they finished 4th which we'd all be delighted with, especially if we ended up on 76 points.

If Ole finishes his first 2 full seasons as 4th and 4th, of course he'll rightfully get time.

 

[Keefy18]

I dont appreciate the name calling mate. This has been several time you're going personal.

Apologies, but I've an allergic reaction to idiotic sentiments.

 

[Keefy18]

That's not how you determine what is peanuts and if you do then you have no clue. You are literally using record transfers and a fictitious one.

Actually it is.

120M is not sufficient to build a team worthy of title challenges, which is the sentiment Sky is trying to portray.

Aside from Leicester's freakish title win, there are very few examples to support your claim.

There is a direct correlation between the clubs who spend the most and winning titles across Europe.

To say otherwise is factually untrue.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Actually it is.

120M is not sufficient to build a team worthy of title challenges, which is the sentiment Sky is trying to portray.

Aside from Leicester's freakish title win, there are very few examples to support your claim.

There is a direct correlation between the clubs who spend the most and winning titles across Europe.

To say otherwise is factually untrue.

But our squad cost a shit load more than 120m.

I’m confused here. Does each new manager need 400m to build his squad?

As JP says, using record transfers to show it’s peanuts would be as silly as using Salah, Firminho & Fabinho to show it’s loads of money.

 

[Feed Me]

But we are fifth now ahead of Sheffield?

Your whole arguement just became obsolete.

they have a game in hand on us?

 

[JPRouve]

Actually it is.

120M is not sufficient to build a team worthy of title challenges, which is the sentiment Sky is trying to portray.

Aside from Leicester's freakish title win, there are very few examples to support your claim.

There is a direct correlation between the clubs who spend the most and winning titles across Europe.

To say otherwise is factually untrue.

120m not being sufficient to win a title has nothing to do with it being peanuts, you also don't start at zero anyway. You are here insulting people and makes the most idiotic point because you fail to make a simple evaluation, there isn't a single industry where 20% of revenue is peanuts and we are talking about 20% of one of the wealthiest clubs, we quickly go in the 30% for clubs that are around the 10th ranked richest clubs in the world and beyond the top 20 we are in prohibitive shares.

If you want to make the argument that you need time, luck, talent and money to build a title winning team then do that but don't make a ridiculous that is blatantly untrue, particularly when you decide to be rude about it.

Also the correlation is with wages not players registrations costs.

 

[Feed Me]

Doesn’t augur well that he couldn’t land a young family friend playing in Austria. Pulling power

 

[Keefy18]

But our squad cost a shit load more than 120m.

I’m confused here. Does each new manager need 400m to build his squad?

Yep it has cost us a fortune. We achieved a short term "fix" of 2nd place finish.

Reality is though the plan behind it was short term and we reverted back to a general standard of form.

Spending certainly helps alright.

Would Klopp be doing quite as well as he is but for spending world record fees on VVD and Allison?

They were arguably the final pieces of the jigsaw.

 

[Jonno]

they have a game in hand on us?

Are you actually suggesting if a team has a game in hand on us with less points, they are therefore ahead of us? Strange view.

 

[JPRouve]

Doesn’t augur well that he couldn’t land a young family friend playing in Austria. Pulling power

I don't think that it augurs anything, personal relationships are often over-emphasized by the press. Players don't care about these things or the club that they may have supported as kids, otherwise most players wouldn't be playing where they are currently playing.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Who caused the unrest in the dressing room?

I'd be inclined to say benching Moura after him getting them to the CL final on his own against Ajax for a seriously unfit Kane wrecked the dressing room dynamic and the players realised after 4 seasons or whatever it had been that they were never gonna win anything with Poch's tactics and it finally broke.

Poch caused his own downfall, all whilst failing to win anything.

There's an obsession over this 'where would they be if they weren't United manager' thing. Nobody knows.

Fact is right now Poch doesn't have a job through his own fault and nobody is rushing to snap him up.

Meanwhile we've just won two games back to back that I was sure we would lose and we've had a really good December overall with a very inconsistent squad of players. Let's see if we reinforce in January.

The unrest in the dressing room was nothing to do with Poch but more to do with Levy. Spuds are famous for not paying the going rate for players wages. Alderweireld, Eriksen and Vertonghen were all running their contracts down although Alderweireld has recently signed a new contract the unrest was clear to see.

Do you really think Poch is sitting at home and nobody is calling him because you think he isn't good enough? Or is it more likely we wants to study the offers and choose in the summer what his next project is going to be? Poch also has a clause which means he'd lose £12m if he signs for another club before summer. Why shouldn't he relax and rest up before summer because a shortage of job offers he isn't going to have.

 

[Keefy18]

120m not being sufficient to win a title has nothing to do with it being peanuts, you also don't start at zero anyway. You are here insulting people and makes the most idiotic point because you fail to make a simple evaluation, there isn't a single industry where 20% of revenue is peanuts and we are talking about 20% of one of the wealthiest clubs, we quickly go in the 30% for clubs that are around the 10th ranked richest clubs in the world and beyond the top 20 we are in prohibitive shares.

What you are ignoring is we recouped much of that 120m back with Lukaku sales and lowering of the wage bill with loans also.

So it wasn't 20% as you suggest, the books were balanced in terms of transfers and wage bill lowered in the summer.

If you want to make the argument that you need time, luck, talent and money to build a title winning team then do that but don't make a ridiculous that is blatantly untrue, particularly when you decide to be rude about it.

Absolutely you need a mix of all the above.

Two clubs have dominated the league this decade, Man City and Chelsea.

Since the 2009/10 season they have won 7 league titles between them.

Man City & Chelsea have spent the most in that time period on transfers.

Also the correlation is with wages not players registrations costs.

Man City & Chelsea have lower wage bills than our own, yet dominate the league this decade.

 

[JPRouve]

Man City & Chelsea have lower wage bills than our own, yet dominate the league this decade.

Because we have been incompetent.

What you are ignoring is we recouped much of that 120m back with Lukaku sales and lowering of the wage bill with loans also.

So it wasn't 20% as you suggest, the books were balanced in terms of transfers and wage bill lowered in the summer.

I'm not ignoring a thing, I said that 120m isn't peanuts because you mentioned 120m, if you wanted to use an other figure, you should have used an other figure.

 

[Feed Me]

Are you actually suggesting if a team has a game in hand on us with less points, they are therefore ahead of us? Strange view.

No

But it’s not a fair comparison if the sides haven't played the same number of matches

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Are you really gonna give him the 8th place when he joined a shambles mid-season? nar, that'd be like me doing the same for Ole, it's pointless.

The mark of a top manager was there with Klopp after his first summer, by xmas they were 2nd. Yes, they finished 4th which we'd all be delighted with, especially if we ended up on 76 points.

If Ole finishes his first 2 full seasons as 4th and 4th, of course he'll rightfully get time.

Klopp took over on the 8th Oct so not mid season at all.

I’m still interested to know what Ole has to do in your eyes to keep his job and if he doesn’t what you would do next

The number of points in any one season is irrelevant, 4th on 66 is the same as 4th on 76.

 

[Feed Me]

I don't think that it augurs anything, personal relationships are often over-emphasized by the press. Players don't care about these things or the club that they may have supported as kids, otherwise most players wouldn't be playing where they are currently playing.

I was being glib

We don’t have great pulling power because our manager is an also ran and our squad is pretty average

 

[Keefy18]

Because we have been incompetent.

That we have indeed.

Doesn't take away from City and Chelsea insane spending at times and in turn being successful.

I'm not ignoring a thing, I said that 120m isn't peanuts because you mentioned 120m, if you wanted to use an other figure, you should have used an other figure.

In fairness, it was Sky who has routinely brought this number up as a stick to beat Ole with.

If we are all being honest it truly isn't a huge sum of money in today's game by any means, he needs more than that to get some real quality in here and there.

If in August Sky was told that on Dec 29th we'd be 1pt from 4th, in a league cup SF & Qualified top of our EL group he'd of taken it, So dredging up pointless sentiments about money spent of 120m seems really pointless in the bigger picture.

 

[hobbers]

So no real answer then.

If you bother to dig out Mitten's piece in the Athletic you wouldn't be making statements like this. He bypassed our board / scouting and relied upon close confidants like Phelan (Maguire when at Hull), Giggs (James caps for Wales) & G Nev (England u21 caps with AWB) for each of his signings in the summer.

This deserves mentioning again.

Leaving aside the fact that it obviously isn't true, as Woodward confirmed, WHY would you be happy if Ole had sanctioned £140m on the transfers of two defenders based just on advice from Phelan and Gary fecking Neville? Two absolute giants in the realms of football management and player scouting . Absolutely senseless.

Seriously though, what is too complicated for you to understand here? Why, in your mind, is this deranged idea that Ole bypassed the scouting department and relied solely on the advice of two absolute no marks trumping direct quotes from Woodward to the same fecking magazine Mitten works for?!

 

[Random Task]

I was being glib

We don’t have great pulling power because our manager is an also ran and our squad is pretty average

Do people actually believe this stuff?

United's 'pulling power' is as strong as ever. There are few clubs in the game today (if any) that can even compete with United where salary + benefits are concerned, let alone offer more.

Cash will always be the primary factor for a professional football choosing his next destination. No offense intended, but you'd be naive to believe anything else.

 

[Mainoldo]

Winning a league title is a better CV than managing a B team, yes?

Was that a dig at Pep

 

[Keefy18]

This deserves mentioning again.

Leaving aside the fact that it obviously isn't true, as Woodward confirmed, WHY would you be happy if Ole had sanctioned £140m on the transfers of two defenders based just on advice from Phelan and Gary fecking Neville? Two absolute giants in the realms of football management and player scouting . Absolutely senseless.

oOOHKaaaay then...

Phelan was part of Ferguson's coaching staff for 14 years! He oversaw what was arguably our most successful period in the clubs history as Ferguson's right hand man! Surely you knew that?

G Neville clearly is a fantastic coach, perhaps not a manager but he knows the game well and is clearly a good judge of a player.

I'd absolutely feckin trust Phelan for sure anyway!

Seriously though, what is too complicated for you to understand here? Why, in your mind, is this deranged idea that Ole bypassed the scouting department and relied solely on the advice of two absolute no marks trumping direct quotes from Woodward to the same fecking magazine Mitten works for?!

In fairness, Mitten is a respected contact with regards United.

• If Ole by passed the scouting it goes to show how bad it is.
• If Ole didn't by pass it and was reliant on them, what were the targets? It doesn't seem like they offered up many options if we are basing it off reliable journalists info.

There was definite interest in Dybala, don't think anyone disputes that. That signing screams Woodward / our scouting, call it whatever you will. I think they hoped they could get him on reasonable wages but his demands were mental.

Outside of that, it's really a guessing game on whom you choose to believe.

 

[Mainoldo]

Yep it has cost us a fortune. We achieved a short term "fix" of 2nd place finish.

Reality is though the plan behind it was short term and we reverted back to a general standard of form.

Spending certainly helps alright.

Would Klopp be doing quite as well as he is but for spending world record fees on VVD and Allison?

They were arguably the final pieces of the jigsaw.

He earnt that right by getting 4th and reaching a ChampionsLeague final. What we heading towards?

 

[El Zoido]

United are a team on the up, so we won’t have too much of a problem securing targets.

 

[Keefy18]

He earnt that right by getting 4th and reaching a ChampionsLeague final. What we heading towards?

Heading towards a brighter future clearly.

AWB, Maguire, Vic, Fred, McTominay, James, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Williams...

The futures brighter than it has been in a very long time.

 

[Gehrman]

United are a team on the up, so we won’t have too much of a problem securing targets.

Bit early for that. Let's see end of season.