I'm on board with this.
We'll find people with the right genetics and start breeding them and then raise the kids as the ultimate footballers!
The 3 Year Rebuilding Process
- Thread starter Oranges038
- Start date
We'll find people with the right genetics and start breeding them and then raise the kids as the ultimate footballers!
I remember that, but can't find the right video.
But you are right. Utd have a woefully mis shapen squad, build with all kinds of players suited to different styles. One man cannot be expected to reverse and reshape a team coming off ten years of bad signings and big money spent. There needs to be a whole raft of changes behind the scenes to fix everything on the footballing side. It's all broken.
I'll also agree with you on Antony, he's one player I've said needs a different profile of fullback behind him to enable him to excel. It's this sort of joined up thinking when it comes to squad building that doesn't cross most fans minds. But it becomes obvious when you actually think about it, it's more about players complimenting each other, not compensating for weaknesses elsewhere on the pitch.
New manager bounce and players trying extra hard to prove they don't need Kane. There will come a time when spuds have a bad spell and struggle for goals and then we'll see what everyone really thinks.
There was a post in another thread about how we should sign Bellingham's dad and put him out to stud - maybe Carrington's green pastures could be put to better than use than training, we could be breeding the next generation of talent.
So many managers start a new season with a new club and struggle. So a new manager bounce is a pretty poor excuse, especially as we are nearly three months into the season.
Plus, the poster wasn't talking so much about their results as he was talking about Ange getting them to play how he wanted. And thats not just down to their motivation.
Plenty start well and have a dip, usually mid season, struggle to recover and are gone within 18 months. I have no doubt that teams will figure out how to stop spuds, it just takes a while to build up the games for them to figure it all out.
Would probably be faster too.
He has a lot of money to spend and bring players that implement his own style. The fact we're playing the current football might proves that it's actually what he wants. That's his vision for United. He probably thinks Ajax like football isn't suited for the Premier League.
Which is why some of us wanted Qatar to buy us so we could afford to take the financial hit and offload these wasters. Now it will be difficult and we're probably stuck with the likes of Sancho, Antony and Rashford stinking up the place for years to come.
His interview with the media all but confirms the sentiment that his identity isn't working. Respectfully he couldn't convey his idea across clearly in his communication, it's not language barrier either he's talking about mixing possession play with being direct.
Injuries is not an excuse because the purchase of Mount was to pioneer this new direction for the team before the season was under way. Everything we are seeing is of the managers intention, he spent on the money on the midfield and as you have stated Ange has totally revamped the approach of Spurs and he was very clear about that intention from his quotes at the beginning of the season.
Whatever Erik is doing it's proving to be ineffective. Him working under a different ownership doesn't change that, time isn't going to fix it, it's a philosophical issue that is directly influenced by the manager.
Along with "Project" and "United DNA"
I could tolerate Ten Hag if our results weren't great but we could at least see his ideas vision being implemented on the pitch. Somewhat like what Chelsea's going through right now - I don't think I'm even asking that much at that point. I don't think I've seen one game this season from us where we saw any sort of fluid tactics from our players - every goal I've seen came from individual brilliance, Moments FC type of stuff.
He's been given more than a year to drill and coach his preferred tactics and playstyle into his players. For whatever reason, be it his or players' own inability to give or follow instructions, or if it's players that downed tools... it's not working out. Injuries alone shouldn't affect this if every one of our players are training to standards.
It’s already ten years since we won the league, and the club has gone to pieces since Fergie retired. It’s looking more like a thirty year re-build.
How long did it take for Ange to rebuild Spurs? How long did it take for Klopp to build his Liverpool 2.0?
We are on an indefinite rebuild phase.
Ange hasn't rebuilt shit, he's got his new manager bounce going. We'll see how it goes when they have a dip in form.
Klopp's Liverpool 2.0 has been ongoing over the last few years because they were brought to point over his first 3/4 years where gradual introductions could be made. He bought forwards last year, played without a decent midfield and finished 5th. Half way through the season they were 9th? This year it was the midfield, next year he'll fill up the defence. There's your 3 year rebuild cycle.
Every club is in and indefinite cycle of rebuilding and replacing squads. The key is to have a proper structure and succession plan in place where you're always looking 3/4 years down the line at where your current squad is going to be
I get that people see the word rebuild and have a laugh, ah here we go again. I think many people are just missing the point and just can't or don't want to accept the reality of the situation the club is in.
Utd right now, are at least 3 years away from having a decent and balanced squad with good depth that's capable of competing for trophies. Over the next 3 years there needs to be a structure put in place to ensure that the squad is reshaped to a point where it will be stable and competitive over a number of years. From that point on you can incrementally adjust the squad here and there with one or two players.
The problem now is the squad is woefully unbalanced, key players are too old and there's a severe lack of quality in depth. We're just going to have to temper expectations and endure a couple of years of 6th/7th/8th place finishes while that process is being sorted out and the current squad is dismantled and rebuilt to the point where it's ready to launch a serious challenge for trophies.
He had enough money to build a side to play the kind of football you are talking about. Yet, he's the one who said he wants to build a transition based team.
3 GK
Onana
Bayindir
Manuel Neuer / Hugo Lloris / David de Gea
2 RB
Wan-Bissaka
Sugawara
2 LB
Shaw
Malacia
5 CB
Martinez
Varane
Pau Torres
Antonio Silva / Giorgio Scalvini
Jonny Evans / Mats Hummels / Nathan Collins
2 Defensive mid / deep playmakers
Casemiro
Florentino Luis / Declan Rice
4 Midfielders / 2 box to box / 2 attacking / playmakers
McTominay / Ward-Prowse / Koopmeiners
Toni Kroos / Billy Gilmour / Mainoo
Eriksen / James Maddison
Mount / Luka Modric
4 Wingers
Rashford
Garnacho
Takefusa Kubo / Moussa Diaby / Thomas Müller
Matías Soulé / Diallo
2 Strikers
Hojlund
Evan Ferguson
2+ Utility players / squad players (basically John O'Shea / Park types that can play in DF/MF/FW when needed)
Brandon Williams (RB & LB)
Matt O'Riley (DM/CM/AM)
Nicolás González (RW, LW, AM & CF)
Out
Heaton (free)
Lindelof (25m)
Dalot (loan)
Van de Beek (20m)
Fernandes (60m)
Sancho (40m)
Antony (30m)
Martial (20m)
Thoughts?
Stopped at your third choice goalkeeper picks to be honest.
He has had enough money spent to be put under intense pressure, that far outweighs the impact of the money spent. That doesn't mean it has to be of his own doing. It just means, something went wrong.
It could be overpaying for mediocre players, and if it is then that means we should adjust our expectations because money spent doesn't reflect the actual value to the squad. It could mean a player has flopped, which a top club have to account for when investing. You can't pin your hopes on three signings each window, and little outgoings for years and years when you need a squad rebuilt. Eriksen, Weghorst, Amrabat, Sabitzer these are mediocre low risk loan signings. Keeping Dalot, Maguire, Lindelof, McTominay amongst others. This is not rebuilding. The money spent by Ten Haag by the end of his reign should come to about 2 times more than City if he is to overtake them. With United tax.. That is fair considering how far behind we've been.
He spent this money on either past it players as short term gap like Casemiro or for poor players. We overpaid for these players because he insisted on them. We had to overpay for the likes of Antony and Mount so that he doesn't moan he didn't get backed. These choices are his fault ultimately. None of the players he asked for screamed him wanting to build an attacking football team, or a team that wants to keep possession of the ball. We wouldn't have bought Mount or Antony if he had wanted that.
I have no idea whats going on here.
Are you suggesting that over the next 3 years we target or keep 35 to 40 year olds like Neuer, Lloris, Kroos, Modric, Evans, Hummels, Casemiro and Eriksen?
Tom Heaton has been backup goalkeeper this year, why are younger Neuer and Lloris worse?
Evans has been backup CB this year, why not replace him with a younger Hummels?
Kroos and Modric would be great additions to our midfield for the next few years. I'd say better than current options McTominay, Amrabat and Van de Beek.
They're first team players for Real Madrid this season, what makes you think they would have nothing to contribute here next season?
Are you saying you would turn down Neuer, Lloris, Hummels, Modric and Kroos on a free transfer when their contracts run out next summer if they actually want to come?
Casemiro and Eriksen are 31, not sure why they're mentioned. Who would you like to replace them with?
Last edited:
It seems like you want to find the perfect squad of 25-29 year olds, have them play together for 3 years and then replace the entire team with a new batch of peak age players, that's not really how squad management works. As others have said already you can't rebuild all the time, it's about continous improvement. Also, everyone is good at identifying who is shite and needs replacing but nobody really comes up with any names of better options.
Last edited:
Why would you want any of them?
I would turn down every single one of those players, this isn't a retirement home. That's what the MLS and Saudi Arabia is for now.
You want a team that's going to peak together, there shouldn't be really any players over the age of 28 considered unless they are available on a free or it's a short term fix. We need to get away from signing short term stop gaps +30 year old players and look at building a squad that's capable of competing 3 years from now. The majority of the targets should be players up to a max age of 24/25, that will grow as players and peak together.
Does anyone really believe we'd be this bad with our first choice back 4, and more than 1 consecutive match with the first choice midfield?
These teams have been so disjointed because they're literally entirely different teams.
For me you can 100 percent attack ETH for Antony. Too expensive, desperate buy and maybe we could have bought 2/3 players for that. Dumb without a doubt. Everyone else though?
Eriksen: Signed as an experienced, 15/20 minute player imo. Would be fine at that, but midfield being constantly suspended/injured means he plays central, from the start. Is mediocre.
Malacia: Looks totally fine as a backup LB. Mystery long-term injury, first of his career. Hard to hit ETH for that.
Martinez: Unqualified success, would be in some premier league teams of the season. Unfortunate injury hardly ETH's fault.
Casemiro: Probably too expensive, but every pundit on Earth was enthused about his study of the game, his incredible intelligence and so forth, and he's not that old. Plus, wasn't first choice, obviously.
Hojland: Looks good to me. Unlucky to not have scored more. Certainly better than (checks notes) the single other striker at the club.
Mount: Too expensive, but seems loved by managers and has proven premier league pedigree. Good profile, useful player to add. I still think he'll come good.
Onana: Has attributes we need. Shaky start, let's see.
That's it right? The random loan players because we're skint don't count imo, no other real top club has to pull that crap.
For me the issue remains volume. We've spent far too much on far too few players. Pep signed something like 15 first teamers in his first 2 seasons at City. Klopp spent very well but still took a couple years to get going.
If we could just field the first XI, I really think we'd start clicking.
These teams have been so disjointed because they're literally entirely different teams.
For me you can 100 percent attack ETH for Antony. Too expensive, desperate buy and maybe we could have bought 2/3 players for that. Dumb without a doubt. Everyone else though?
Eriksen: Signed as an experienced, 15/20 minute player imo. Would be fine at that, but midfield being constantly suspended/injured means he plays central, from the start. Is mediocre.
Malacia: Looks totally fine as a backup LB. Mystery long-term injury, first of his career. Hard to hit ETH for that.
Martinez: Unqualified success, would be in some premier league teams of the season. Unfortunate injury hardly ETH's fault.
Casemiro: Probably too expensive, but every pundit on Earth was enthused about his study of the game, his incredible intelligence and so forth, and he's not that old. Plus, wasn't first choice, obviously.
Hojland: Looks good to me. Unlucky to not have scored more. Certainly better than (checks notes) the single other striker at the club.
Mount: Too expensive, but seems loved by managers and has proven premier league pedigree. Good profile, useful player to add. I still think he'll come good.
Onana: Has attributes we need. Shaky start, let's see.
That's it right? The random loan players because we're skint don't count imo, no other real top club has to pull that crap.
For me the issue remains volume. We've spent far too much on far too few players. Pep signed something like 15 first teamers in his first 2 seasons at City. Klopp spent very well but still took a couple years to get going.
If we could just field the first XI, I really think we'd start clicking.
---------------------------- Hojlund
----- Rashford ------------------------------Kubo
------------------- Kroos -------- Modric
------------------------- Casemiro
--- Shaw ---------------------------------------- AWB
----------------- Martinez ---- Varane
---------------------------- Onana
------------------------- Ferguson
--- Garnacho ------------------------------ Soulé
------------------ Eriksen ------ Mount
------------------------ Florentino
-- Malacia -------------------------------- Sugawara
---------------- Torres ---- Hummels
------------------------- Neuer
Piotr Zielinski also has a contract expiring next summer, younger option for Modric
Squad - Bayindir, Silva/Scalvini, Fish, Williams, Dalot, Mainoo, Hannibal, McTominay, Pellistri, Diallo and Morata on a free transfer
Looks decent to me
I think you would struggle to find a realistic and viable team of 11 peak age players, a good age mix is a better way to go
Edit: if we're interested in any of the players with expiring contracts, we should be talking to their agents right now
----- Rashford ------------------------------Kubo
------------------- Kroos -------- Modric
------------------------- Casemiro
--- Shaw ---------------------------------------- AWB
----------------- Martinez ---- Varane
---------------------------- Onana
------------------------- Ferguson
--- Garnacho ------------------------------ Soulé
------------------ Eriksen ------ Mount
------------------------ Florentino
-- Malacia -------------------------------- Sugawara
---------------- Torres ---- Hummels
------------------------- Neuer
Piotr Zielinski also has a contract expiring next summer, younger option for Modric
Squad - Bayindir, Silva/Scalvini, Fish, Williams, Dalot, Mainoo, Hannibal, McTominay, Pellistri, Diallo and Morata on a free transfer
Looks decent to me
I think you would struggle to find a realistic and viable team of 11 peak age players, a good age mix is a better way to go
Edit: if we're interested in any of the players with expiring contracts, we should be talking to their agents right now
Last edited:
We absolutely need a long term plan. However, that would mean short term pain and forgetting about trophies and top 4 for a while.
Otherwise we will always end up with buying past their peak short term solutions or overpay massively for half decent players because we want an immediate impact.
People talk about „we need a reinforcement for this and that position“. The truth is we don’t need filling single holes but an overarching vision towards which we are going to build no matter what this means for results and accept wasting millions on players not being part of that vision respectively sell them even if that means taking massive price cuts.
Otherwise we will always end up with buying past their peak short term solutions or overpay massively for half decent players because we want an immediate impact.
People talk about „we need a reinforcement for this and that position“. The truth is we don’t need filling single holes but an overarching vision towards which we are going to build no matter what this means for results and accept wasting millions on players not being part of that vision respectively sell them even if that means taking massive price cuts.
It's impossible to achieve any real progress with respect actually competing for major trophies without an effective DoF.
For example, an effective DoF would NEVER have allowed us to sign Casemiro, Varane or Ronaldo. £115m worth of transfer fees and £66m per annum in wages for three players that are over the hill and on their way out. Perceived as necessary quick fixes but they never actually fixed anything, they cause further problems.
None of this excuses ETHs crazy tactics, muddled thinking, bonkers selections and wierd in-game decisions.
For example, an effective DoF would NEVER have allowed us to sign Casemiro, Varane or Ronaldo. £115m worth of transfer fees and £66m per annum in wages for three players that are over the hill and on their way out. Perceived as necessary quick fixes but they never actually fixed anything, they cause further problems.
None of this excuses ETHs crazy tactics, muddled thinking, bonkers selections and wierd in-game decisions.
The problem is the majority of us fans can’t wait 3 years, it’s alright us all completely recognising the fact that it takes time to build a squad, but nobody ever gives it the time to get there.
So, until you get at least 70+ thousand in OT to to accept that, along with ex-players, pundits and millions of fans worldwide then it’s not happening and successive managers will feel the best in their 2nd season if we’ve not won the league etc.
Also, look at Tottenham, Villa, Brighton, Brentford (to a relative extent) All of these clubs have brought in managers with a clear philosophy, style of play, proper football department etc.
We’ve done none of the above and as said hundreds of times if we don’t then things will never change
So, until you get at least 70+ thousand in OT to to accept that, along with ex-players, pundits and millions of fans worldwide then it’s not happening and successive managers will feel the best in their 2nd season if we’ve not won the league etc.
Also, look at Tottenham, Villa, Brighton, Brentford (to a relative extent) All of these clubs have brought in managers with a clear philosophy, style of play, proper football department etc.
We’ve done none of the above and as said hundreds of times if we don’t then things will never change
We don't need a rebuild, we need to set these bastaros asses on fire and get them to play ball. These same guys will play prime football if we get a new manager for 2 months and we will be repeating the same cycle again in a year and half . EtH has his faults but we need to give him time,,,the players don't deserve any sympathy.
This is the point a lot of people just don't seem to grasp, I think ETH set an unrealistic expectation by getting top 4 and winning the league cup last year. There needs to be a long term plan and we as fans have to accept that this malaise will continue until the whole background is sorted out.
The team is struggling and the answer as always is a new manager, then it'll be he needs x,y and z. The problem is a new manager ain't gonna do shit, if there's not a proper structure in place to build the squad properly. I'll keep saying it, this squad is a mess, it's going to take at least 3 years under the right structure before we start seeing tangible results and a push for trophies with the team on the pitch.
But what you have is a bunch of cry babies who want it now, they just can't fathom the scale of the task at hand, to reverse 10 years of poor signings and having a bunch of overpaid numpties hanging around too fecking long.
Take the hit over the next few years, a couple of 7th/8th/9th finishes and build for the future, Liverpool did it, Arsenal did it, Chelsea are doing it. But apparently it's not good enough for Utd to do it.
I don't think it's just a dof, it's the whole club committing to building towards a sustainable squad. It's a process, that if we start now with this squad, it's going to be at least a 3 year programme. By then, you will have a base that you can add and replace 1 or 2 players if needed every year and make gradual improvements.
I'll agree with on those players, you could maybe you add one or two like that, as experience and for younger players to learn from, but you do not buy those players for big money to be linchpins in your team, only to be looking for the next player to fill that hole in 2 years. Arsenal did it with Jorginho just a cheap short term deal to add experience for players to learn from.
Getting rid of these players is the next problem, do what Arsenal did and just feck them off, pay them off if you have to. But no, what do Utd do? Give players who aren't worth a damn new 4 year deals. It needs to be about what a player is worth to the team on the pitch, not about book value or anything shite like that.
I can’t tell if a midfield of Casemiro Kroos Modric for next season is a joke or not.
It's not that I disagree with your overall view/approach but I would still argue that the manager has to demonstrate that some progress is being made.
It's true that we overachieved last season and going into this season my ONLY criteria for judging ETH was our football. I didn't care about the signings, I didn't care about results or where we ultimately finished, all I cared about was us showing some form of tactical progression.
So far what I have seen is hideous. We've gone backwards and many of ETHs decisions are increasingly baffling. Couple that with the fact that this isn't exactly a manager with an incredible CV to fall back on, and some of the very questionable performances we saw last season (0-7 at Anfield is totally unacceptable) and I think people have understandably lost faith.
A manager has to earn the right somehow to be allowed to implement a 3YR plan, or whatever. You can't just say, 'what we need is forward-planning, so we'll appoint someone and dogmatically stick with them regardless of what they do or don't do". There still has to be some evidence of progress.
The Tottenham guy just came in, saw them lose their main player, everyone was talking midtable. Yet they're currently playing good stuff and top of the league.
Get the right manager and you should see very quick improvement.
We thought we saw that with out superb run of home wins. But the doubt about the terrible run against anyone decent away.
What's happened over this summer to give these performances I don't know.
Get the right manager and you should see very quick improvement.
We thought we saw that with out superb run of home wins. But the doubt about the terrible run against anyone decent away.
What's happened over this summer to give these performances I don't know.
Why are people keep saying this? Except for Moyes, every other manager we had met the targets set for him after walking into the mess the previous one had left behind. That's why people buy into the dream and get their hopes up. Just like Postecoglu is doing now (unless you think Spurs are going to win the league). It's what follows after the initial uplift that's the problem. Let's also see where the new Tottenham guy will be in two years time.
More like Redestroy, manager after manager.
Probably because people keep saying it takes years and years to make any difference.
United can't get a manager who can back up an initial promising first year. It's the sustaining any semblance of success we struggle with.
I get that. What i don't get is where Ange fits in all this. Good first seasons, we had plenty. Unless people have looked into their crystal balls and know that he's going to do better than Poch for Spurs. I don't believe that, when we were beating Barcelona and Newcastle in the final, many people on here were saying that the near 60 year old who had been handed his arse to him by the likes of Bodo-Glimt and Midtylland was the way to go. On the contrary, the most vocal ones on here downplay everything our managers had achieved before it all went south.