In the big games with stacked teams, my belief is that fairly creative is not good enough to break deadlocks and someone like Suarez/Breitner can make all the difference although it might not reflect anywhere in the scoreline. Considering most teams went with the 2 B2B combination, I am guessing most don't agree with how I see it. Which is okay I guess, we can't all think the same way
The 4-4-2 Draft - Final - Edgar vs Pat Mustard
- Thread starter Pat_Mustard
- Start date
Keane is the best DM/B2B on the pitch and Suzrez is the best passer. Love Schweini-Breitner, but my midfield has as much steel but more creativity as a whole and feel they are also a more complimentary pairing.
I do like the idea of Rivaldo or Blokhin alongside Koscis considering you had Suarez. But I do see what you mean, it's difficult to find a super obvious choice alongside Koscis. Could be a good debate in itself.
Thought we debunked that view in our PM debate
Im honestly stunned you think that team(without Breitner) lacks resources to open teams, no matter how good they are. Team has more creativity then ours + you dont always need creativity to open teams, even great ones.
I have Stoichkov in the bench from R1
Since there is no Hidegkuti equivalent in attack, so the SS must be comfortable creatively and also have a high work rate to bridge the gap. Considered Cantona too, but then Raul was simply a better goal threat and also more flexible player and can be paired easily.
Not really. You corrected my incorrect assumption that almost all great 4-4-2 teams in history had a great playmaker in midfield with the fairly obvious example of Invincibles. I agreed I was incorrect with the caveat that as long as a super creative figure like Bergkamp exists who can drop fairly deep and create chances, you can do away with out a playmaker.
Here, neither Law nor Dalglish are anywhere close to someone like Bergkamp. Just like Kempes and Keegan from Isotope's team with 2 B2B midfielders where I felt the same issue creativity wise.
Invincibles were not the only example though, what about Heynckes Bayern? One of the best if not the best 442 team i ever saw. Muller Mandzukic up front with Javi Martinez and Schweini in the middle.
Also, think you are underrating Kenny and Law in terms of creativity, they are few classes above Kempes and Keegan.
You would have won Sjor and my vote every round if you had paired Koscis and Hidegkuti.
There really is no better upgrade. What a ballsy move as well to pick and start an unpicked player in the final. Pat would have been crying home by this point.
That's a stretch. I've said before that the dynamics feel off in your pairing if you're aiming for a reboot of our Treble-winning central midfield, and I don't see what Schweinsteiger-Breitner lacks in terms of complementarity.
A fine post by Balu that sums up why I wanted to pick Schweinsteiger so badly:
There was any number if midfielders in the pool that I would gladly have paired him with, but Breitner was top of the heap for me.
Time for a bit of Barnes.
I'd forgotten quite how dismally shite England's build up play was here. They managed to get the ball to Barnes' feet a grand total of twice after he came on as a 74th minute sub. First time he creates a goal, the second time Lineker comes agonisingly close to drawing England level from Barnes' centre:
Older all-touches video of Barnes brutalising us:
Short highlight of a match against Liverpool for Watford where he bags an assist and a goal, treating Edgar's Hansen like a training cone for his goal. That headed flick-on from the corner for his assist seems to have been a regular set-piece routine for Watford as I saw him do the same thing against Brehme and Briegel's Kaiserslautern in an unlikely 3-0 victory for Watford. He carried a decent threat in the air, and I could easily see him getting the jump on the smaller Amoros at the far-post in this match to threaten on goal in this match.
Diabolical brutality vs QPR, with an assist for the first goal, crosses to win the penalty for the second, then rounds things off with two terrific goals of his own:
I'd forgotten quite how dismally shite England's build up play was here. They managed to get the ball to Barnes' feet a grand total of twice after he came on as a 74th minute sub. First time he creates a goal, the second time Lineker comes agonisingly close to drawing England level from Barnes' centre:
Older all-touches video of Barnes brutalising us:
Short highlight of a match against Liverpool for Watford where he bags an assist and a goal, treating Edgar's Hansen like a training cone for his goal. That headed flick-on from the corner for his assist seems to have been a regular set-piece routine for Watford as I saw him do the same thing against Brehme and Briegel's Kaiserslautern in an unlikely 3-0 victory for Watford. He carried a decent threat in the air, and I could easily see him getting the jump on the smaller Amoros at the far-post in this match to threaten on goal in this match.
Diabolical brutality vs QPR, with an assist for the first goal, crosses to win the penalty for the second, then rounds things off with two terrific goals of his own:
A reminder of what Dani Alves was all about, with two fine assists vs Monaco in a CL semi-final for Juventus. The first one from a back-heel was just magnificent:
And at LB Ruud Krol. He'd already moved to libero at this point I believe, yet his incisive bursts down the left wing were still opening up defences for Ajax:
0:00 Play-making from inside-eft channel to pre-assist the first goal.
0:37 Cutting in off the left wing to provide a through-ball assist for the second goal.
1:19 Slicing the defence open from the centre for another assist to make it 3-0.
0:00 Play-making from inside-eft channel to pre-assist the first goal.
0:37 Cutting in off the left wing to provide a through-ball assist for the second goal.
1:19 Slicing the defence open from the centre for another assist to make it 3-0.
Players like Carrick or Schweinstiger are more than sufficient in a 4-4-2. They'd typically just move the ball to the flanks and the opposition is pulled wider as they try to close down the wingers and that creates spaces centrally. So you wouldn't really need a Xavi IMO, although it'll certainly be nice to have. Having said that, you'd also want these CMs to be positionally astute as you'd probably be 3-2-5 in an offensive phase (or even 2-3-5 depending on where the fullback opposite to the ball positions himself.
That's a massive under-appreciation of player like Scholes. Of course he isn't "needed" for a 442 to work, but a 442 with a genuine long passer like him will always be more effective than one without. Esp in a team which opts for wide play.
If as per Pat's tactics, Cont will be cutting in and Alves will be the width provider, then they are really vulnerable to a quick counter. A ping from Scholes to Giggs and nobody is going to catch him.
No offense to Breitner, but the sheer amount of opportunities that can be unlocked by Scholes/Suarez doesn't compare at all. The sheer vision and ability to unlock a defense with a single pass is something genius.
Between Conti and Barnes he has plenty of runners and Schweini work rate to boot. So perhaps a more dedicated passing playmaker might elevate the team than another hybrid B2B playmaker.
In a 4-3-3, a attacking B2B is far more effective than in a 442 (not that they are bad, but a comparison). Arsenal did make it work, but then in every instance, I'd choose Keane-Scholes over Silva-Vieira as better pairing.
Between Conti and Barnes he has plenty of runners and Schweini work rate to boot. So perhaps a more dedicated passing playmaker might elevate the team than another hybrid B2B playmaker.
In a 4-3-3, a attacking B2B is far more effective than in a 442 (not that they are bad, but a comparison). Arsenal did make it work, but then in every instance, I'd choose Keane-Scholes over Silva-Vieira as better pairing.
I don't think it's a binary issue - i.e. you either need or don't need a playmaker in your midfield. It's about the collective creative ability of the team as a whole. 1 playmaker and 10 watercarriers isn't better than playmaking shared across half a dozen technically smooth players. And the whole notion of a single playmaker has been swept aside by modern tactics as the single 10 has been overtaken by players all over the park with comparative skillsets. Plenty of examples of great 4-4-2s where the most substantial playmaking work was done in the centre of defence, at full-back, down the wings, up top as well as the centre of midfield.
Sure. I'm not saying Scholes wouldn't be great - just that a player like him isn't an absolute requirement for a 4-4-2 to work well.
there isnt a single type of player that is requirement for a 442 to work well
I think the wings are where you might need specific types, although I suppose you can argue tweaks to that role as well.
think Simeone proved you can have a great 442 without wingers, as odd as that sounds
I hate to break it to you mate but Scholars isn't in your team
. More to the point, Breitner was a superb passer over distance.Aye, agreed. In this draft, I'd have been happy to find myself with a Redondo, a Bozsik or a Scholes and build around that, but there were so many different ways to configure the 4-4-2 and still ensure fluency in possession, chance creation etc.
I've mentioned my two FBs already, with Dani Alves especially being an incredible creator from RB, but Thiago Silva's ability on the ball merits a reference too:
There's some outrageous pings there, and we'll not struggle to get the ball up the park with quality like that in our ranks.
Fair point, but that is indicative of upgrade in formation/tactics, rather than enhancement of one. For example, the dispersal of dedicated playmaker resulted in popularity of 4-3-3 and decline of 4-4-2 (and 4-2-3-1 to a extent), simply because 4-3-3 is more suited to accommodate diverse playmakers than other formations. A 4-3-3 might be able to get the best of Breitner/Schweini than a 4-4-3 (a Breitner-Schweini-Robson midfield would be top notch in a 4-3-3).
Something more suited to Inverting the Pyramid, I suppose!
For me, a 4-4-2 is specific to emphasize wing play. You may have different types of wingers, but the fundamental remains the same. And the midfielder should be one who's good as a "metronome" i.e. dictating pace, ball distribution, vertical passing, ability to switch flanks etc. A ball carrier through the middle is good, but not really loyal to the tactics as it takes away much from wide play.
Is there a good video of Suarez that showcases how he'd perform in a similar tactic? I know he played as a DLP but I don't know if it's the same thing to do it in the 60s with Bedin sort of sitting behind him in a setup that reverts to 5-3-2/5-2-3 in a defensive phase vs doing it in a modern 4-4-2.
GG @Pat_Mustard . I knew it was going to be tough, but am really happy to get this win after a string of prior losses against you and that damn @Skizzo
Well played mate. I'm strangely relieved that the glorious undefeated streak against you is over, but really fecking annoyed that it had to end in a final! Only voted this morning and then thought the comeback was on when I drew level, only to be denied at the end.GG @Pat_Mustard . I knew it was going to be tough, but am really happy to get this win after a string of prior losses against you and that damn @Skizzo
That reinforcement round before the semis ended up causing more problems than it solved for me. Krol was a great upgrade, but I ended up crowbarring Breitner into the team for the semi and was a bit fortunate to get through, then here he seemed to suffer by comparison to the dropped Robbo.
There will be vengeance for this.GG @Pat_Mustard . I knew it was going to be tough, but am really happy to get this win after a string of prior losses against you and that damn @Skizzo