The 4-Way Draft R1: Enigma vs Physiocrat

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

....................................... TEAM ENIGMA .................................................................................... TEAM PHYSIOCRAT .......................................


TEAM ENIGMA

Formation: 4-3-3
Defensive line: Normal
Style: Counter attacking - direct style - high work rate

Players:

GK: Sepp Maier - One of the best keepers of all time. The man won it all in terms of team achievements - 4 Bundesliga titles, 3 back to back CL titles, WC, EURO. His individual achievement include - three times German player of the year - the most achieved by a goalkeeper in an era where German football was brimming with talent (Beckenbauer, Netzer, Vogts,Breitner, etc). German goalkeeper of the century, 1974 WC all star team and many more. Nicknamed "the cat" he was characteristic with his impossible saves and the ability to shut out opponent attackers.

LB: Giacinto Facchetti - Arguably the best left full back ever. His ability to man his own flank is essential to our wing play. He was strong, tall, elegant and imposing defender in his playing days, he rarely seemed to lose his cool. Revolutionized the full back position playing 634 official games and scoring 75 goals. He played for the Internazionale team remembered as La Grande Inter. Facchetti is remembered as one of the first truly great attacking-full backs. He would make marauding runs upfield using his wonderful dribbling and crossing. He also possessed wonderful stamina and scored important goals.

RB: Carlos Alberto - Regarded as one of the best full backs ever Carlos Alberto Torres was well one of the most iconic figures in the game scored one of the most famous goals ever witnessed in the game. He was the captain of the 1970 WC winning side playing sublime football and Alberto was the pinnacle of attacks playing as an attacking right back of the modern era. Alberto went on to earn 53 caps for the national side scoring an 8 goals by bombing forward and causing havoc as relentless attacking full back. Apart from his attacking output he was also a brilliant defender often playing as a CB for his club teams and winning everything under the sun.

CB(Libero): Franz Beckenbauer - A living legend on and off the pitch, Franz Anton Beckenbauer is commonly considered one of the greatest players of all time. At the pinnacle of his wonderful career Beckenbauer’s nickname was highly suitable, as he literally ruled the football world; ‘Kaiser Franz‘, as he was widely known across the globe, captained the first team to win consecutively the European Championship (in 1972) and the World Cup (two years later), uniting the two crowns for the first time ever (France and Spain have since done it).

In five consecutive major tournaments with the West German team he played four finals and one semifinal, winning two Ballon d’Ors.

CB: Héctor Chumpitaz - One of the finest defender coming from South America. Strong, imposing, and damn fast he was the pillar of Peru's best team ever, whilst also winning numerous personal accolades:
* 1969 Best Defender CONMEBOL
* 1971 Best Defender CONMEBOL
* 1973 All Stars CONMEBOL: Captain
* 2000 World Soccer's: The 100 Greatest Footballers of All Time
* 2004 South American - Player of the Century: Ranking Nº 35
* 2007 Midfield Dynamo's 10 Heroes of the Copa América
* 2007 Copa America All-Star team, all-time
* 2008 All Stars CONMEBOL in the last 50 years
* 2008 Defender all-time goalscoring: Ranking Nº 32

DM(Anchor): Nobby Stiles - Although he was not very imposing physically, the "Toothless Tiger" was an enthusiastic half-back he was extremely popular with United and England fans alike, renowned for his hard, tough tackling, expert skills at spotting potential danger, his simple passing game and man marking. He was capable of dropping into the CB position, playing there numerous times in his United career making him a perfect tactical fit with Beckenbauer.

CM(B2B) - Willem Van Hanegem - a complete midfielder as it gets. Energetic, with enormous work rate and solid defensively. True leader on the pitch and one of the all time greats in his position, he was regarded as the engine behind Johan Cruyff's vision. As one of the few standout Feyenoord players in a team constituted by Ajax's style of play, Van Hanegem's impeccable passing skills and work rate have never been forgotten.

CM/Playmaker - Günter Netzer - Arguably the best German playmaker ever(quite an achievement considering the other candidates). With his long blonde hair immortalised by students of fashion as well as students of football, with his unforced genius in finding space – his and his team mates space – through exuberant movement and extravagant passing that was never wasteful or self-indulgent; and with the inherent flair that presented itself through audacious goals, Gunter Netzer did evoke the contradictory spirit of the Gods.

His technical accomplishments, his football intelligence, his thoughtful analysis of the numerous options available to a player – available to a gifted player, or to a renegade player at least – at any given split second on the football field, and his uncanny and awe-inspiring ability to execute them perfectly, left him immune to contrived, soulless football.

When it comes to discussing the finest midfielders of all time, the name of Gunter Netzer is often criminally overlooked. However, it is worth remembering that no player has single-handedly humiliated England at Wembley like the German did during a now legendary Euro '72 quarter-final first-leg clash in London. The then Borussia Monchengladbach playmaker ran the show from start to finish and capped a wonderful display with a late penalty in a thoroughly deserved 3-1 win.

Netzer maintained his majestic form in the semi-final and final; the Soviet Union could not get close to him as they were thrashed 3-0 in the Brussels showpiece.

RW: Jairzinho - "The Hurricane" was an amazing footballer, who at his peak formed a great partnership with Carlos Alberto producing one of the best WC performances from a player in 1970. Scoring over 250 goals in his career he was prolific and electrifying forward and man for the occasion.

SS: Eusébio - considered one of the greatest goalscorers ever, the "Black Panther" lit up the WC in 1966. Hard to imagine a more decisive player than him who turned the game against North Korea practically on his own with Portugal having their back to the wall and being 3-0 down. Eusebio's nine goals in England propelled Portugal to a third-place finish, and a succession of opposing teams simply had no answer to the power and pace of his play. Eusébio was the catalyst of the great Benfica side that was one of the best European teams in the early 60's.

CF: Denis Law - "The King" was a complete CF and probably the best strikers United had in their history. Denis was the showman supreme. He was more than a mere goal scorer whose cavalier thrusts and menacing darts brought panic to opposing defences. Law was an inspiration to those around him at club and country level and to younger generations of fans everywhere. Team-mates adored him, opponents feared him and fans revered him. He was a free spirit, an extrovert, a complete one-off, a rare combination of impudence and intelligence, class and clout. Denis Law is, was and always will be The King. He will form a truly complimentary partnership along with Eusebio, that has already happened back in 1963:

Player roles:

GK: Sepp Maier - Excellent shot stopper, wall for opposing attackers.
LB: Giacinto Facchetti - Enthusiastic full back manning the whole flank and contributing in both phases
RB: Carlos Alberto - Like Facchetti on the other side, he'll be contributing in both phases and renewing his awesome partnership with Jairzinho.
CB: Hector Chumpitaz - complete CB who combines strength, pace and an excellent man marker.
CB: Franz Beckenbauer - 'The Libero'
DM: Nobby Stiles - defensive midfielder in anchor role. Will drop back to defence when Beckenbauer forays forward.
CM: Willem Van Hanegem - Box to box in his favorite role - the engine of the team.
CM: Netzer - The playmaker of the team, will be running the game with his exquisite passing game and vision.
RW: Jairzinho - Right winger in his 1970 role.
SS: Eusebio - second striker and free roaming forward, playing in free role and causing havoc in the opposition defence with pace, power and darting runs.
CF: Denis Law - Complete striker with top notch movement and excellent finishing

Key Points:
- Amazing defence consisting of two GOAT full backs, the best defensive player in history in Beckenbauer complimented by one of South America greats in Chumpitaz and Maier being the last line of defence.
- complimentary midfield full of grit, determination, engine and awesome playmaking ability in Netzer.
- Attack lead by two of the greatest goalscorers in the game in Eusebio and Law, whilst also having a proven right flank combo and Facchetti on the left.
- Very direct side capable of moving the ball very fast with Netzer/Hanegem and Beckenbauer able to find our attackers with pinpoint passes.
- Equally devastating both on the flanks and also through the middle.

TEAM PHYSIOCRAT

Tactics

4411 out of possession, 2332 in possession

Spoiler: Formation in Possession

Defensive Line Moderate/High
Moderate/High risk possession team (possession with a purpose) stretching the play both laterally and vertically.

Player Name - Player Position - Player Role

Francesco Toldo - Goalkeeper - Stop the opposition from scoring

Alessandro Nesta - Centre Back - Ball Playing CB

Sol Campbell - Centre Back - Stopper

Javier Zanetti - Right Back/ Right Central Midfielder – In possession shift into the RCM possession to give Scholes more passing options and protection. Also to link up a little with Rivaldo and Overmars.

Vincent Candela - Left Back - Attacking

Paul Scholes – Deep Lying Playmaker – Always be an option for the centre backs and to ping the ball out to Overmars and Candela.

Patrick Vieira – Defensive Box-to-box – Pretty much as stated and will provide some protection on the centre left channel when Engima counter attacks.

Manuel Rui Costa – Wide Playmaker – nominally on the left but will drift in to use his creativity and passing skills to unlock Engima's defense with through balls to Vieri and Rivaldo

Marc Overmars - Right Wing – Traditional Winger who can go inside and out. Will provide a lot of crosses, both low and high, as well as cut backs for Rivaldo and Vieri.

Rivaldo – Second Striker – For genius, flair and goals

Christian Vieri - Centre Forward – Cultured Target Man

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Enigma_87 @Physiocrat All the best!

 

[Enigma_87]

Thanks @Edgar Allan Pillow for setting it up!

Good luck @Physiocrat !

 

[Physiocrat]

An excellent team @Enigma_87 and tactically well-constructed.

I do think however I can exploit the space on your left side given how narrow Euesbio is. Overmars linking with Rivaldo with some support from Zanetti could cause serious trouble for Facchetti (especially given the relatively more attacking nature of your defense relative to Italy or Inter at the time) which would cause Chumpitaz to pull wider providing space for either Rivaldo to smash one in from outside the area or a cross/cut back to Vieri. It's true you have van Hanegem and Stiles who can help out here too but Rui Costa needs to be taken account of in the hole plus the possibility of a quick switch by Rivaldo out to Candela.

On Candela he is the best attacking left full back after Roberto Carlos in the 71-76 criteria. He was a stallwart of Roma and played a crucial part on the Scudetto winning side of 2001. Good going forward as well defending a great fit for an attacking full-back in a back 4. Especially with the engine and nous of Vieira may left side is pretty solid and would put up a good

On the other end Campbell is quick and physical enough to mitigate Eusebio's explosiveness. Also there's no-one else in this pool I'd rather have to deal with Law than Nesta who is head and shoulders the best defender since Baresi.

On the most important note, no-one can accuse us not being clear on who is playing.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Don't really understand Physio's team. Why is Rui Costa on the left and Rivaldo on the right? A lop sided 4-3-3 with Rui Costa on middle, Rivaldo on left and Overmars on right seems more balanced.

Excellent as usual from Enigma.

 

[Physiocrat]

Don't really understand Physio's team. Why is Rui Costa on the left and Rivaldo on the right? A lop sided 4-3-3 with Rui Costa on middle, Rivaldo on left and Overmars on right seems more balanced.

Excellent as usual from Enigma.

The front four essentially operate similar to the Zidane, Raul, Ronaldo and Figo did at Real with Rui Costa in the Zidane role. He's not a left winger but playing as a wide playmaker and he has as much, if not more mobility, than Zidane - I also read that Rui Costa played as a winger at somepoints in the past.

The reason for the set-up as stated is to give Rivaldo the perfect platform to perform. His attributes suit the creative second striker role more than any other role. I therefore wanted him as a far forward as possible hence Rui Costa, nominally on the left but as stated in the OP to drift in when is possession. In this role off Vieri he has maximal opportunities to work his magic and score spectacular goals.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The front four essentially operate similar to the Zidane, Raul, Ronaldo and Figo did at Real with Rui Costa in the Zidane role. He's not a left winger but playing as a wide playmaker and he has as much, if not more mobility, than Zidane - I also read that Rui Costa played as a winger at somepoints in the past.

The reason for the set-up as stated is to give Rivaldo the perfect platform to perform. His attributes suit the creative second striker role more than any other role. I therefore wanted him as a far forward as possible hence Rui Costa, nominally on the left but as stated in the OP to drift in when is possession. In this role off Vieri he has maximal opportunities to work his magic and score spectacular goals.

Rui Costa's peak was as a central playmaker. A #10 who can drop deep and act as a playmaking CM. Rivaldo was a left sided Second Striker. I don't see them overlapping in their natural roles. Here looks like you are playing both of them out of position. Zidane's peak was in central role too. Wonder why you want to use a lesser version of Zidane here.

 

[Enigma_87]

An excellent team @Enigma_87 and tactically well-constructed.

I do think however I can exploit the space on your left side given how narrow Euesbio is. Overmars linking with Rivaldo with some support from Zanetti could cause serious trouble for Facchetti (especially given the relatively more attacking nature of your defense relative to Italy or Inter at the time) which would cause Chumpitaz to pull wider providing space for either Rivaldo to smash one in from outside the area or a cross/cut back to Vieri. It's true you have van Hanegem and Stiles who can help out here too but Rui Costa needs to be taken account of in the hole plus the possibility of a quick switch by Rivaldo out to Candela.

On Candela he is the best attacking left full back after Roberto Carlos in the 71-76 criteria. He was a stallwart of Roma and played a crucial part on the Scudetto winning side of 2001. Good going forward as well defending a great fit for an attacking full-back in a back 4. Especially with the engine and nous of Vieira may left side is pretty solid and would put up a good

On the other end Campbell is quick and physical enough to mitigate Eusebio's explosiveness. Also there's no-one else in this pool I'd rather have to deal with Law than Nesta who is head and shoulders the best defender since Baresi.

On the most important note, no-one can accuse us not being clear on who is playing.

Cheers mate. We've went wild with the arrows in this game so probably would require some additional explanation apart from the OP.

Facchetti will be manning the left side, like he did at Grande Inter. There he had Corso and although listed as left winger he was usually much more central and acted as auxiliary playmaker helping out Suarez in distributing the ball, thus also allowing Facchetti to make his trademark runs.

Facchetti himself was one of the fastest full backs around clocking 100m for less than 11s and with his natural goalscoring instinct (over 75 goals in his career for a full back) and having an inside left or a roaming second striker type/complete forward like Eusebio is always how I'd go with a side that features Facchetti.

For our left side, van Hanegem presence is key to our tactics - a player with undoubted quality but also great engine and natural inclination to the left side, he's the perfect foil for Facchetti to provide the defensive support when needed, whilst the natural vertical movement of Beckenbauer and Stiles provides the cover in defence/midfield.

Something like this when attacking from the left side:



Couple of points:
- Stiles is comfortable to drop back to CB which allows Beckenbauer to shore the midfield in possession.
- Beckenbauer/Netzer have awesome understanding between each other which helps both tactically and positionally.
One stays deeper when the other comes through the middle and vice versa.
- Eusebio offers the passing option to Facchetti, in addition he and Law can swap places in the box to provide a focal point. When one of them drops deeper the other attacks the box. That's one of the reason we didn't go with classical #10 to underline the synergy between Law/Eusebio and also provide them with zone to operate.
- Jairzinho can also attack the box with Carlos Alberto pushing up on counter.
- Van Hanegem covering that left side is possibly the best option as a LCM along with Davids. Great engine, sound defensively and tactically.

A nice compilations of him:


I think our right flank with Carlos Alberto and Jairzinho would be too hot to handle for Candela, especially with him having the attacking burden to stretch your left side.

 

[Gio]

The front four essentially operate similar to the Zidane, Raul, Ronaldo and Figo did at Real with Rui Costa in the Zidane role. He's not a left winger but playing as a wide playmaker and he has as much, if not more mobility, than Zidane - I also read that Rui Costa played as a winger at somepoints in the past.

The reason for the set-up as stated is to give Rivaldo the perfect platform to perform. His attributes suit the creative second striker role more than any other role. I therefore wanted him as a far forward as possible hence Rui Costa, nominally on the left but as stated in the OP to drift in when is possession. In this role off Vieri he has maximal opportunities to work his magic and score spectacular goals.

Yeah, I buy it, and a lot of great 10s have played that exact role before: defending the left of midfield, but drifting infield to dictate the attack. I cannot see it being popular from a draft aesthetics perspective though. Rivaldo in the inside-left channel, opening up the play with his left peg and swinging in crosses to Vieri would garner more positive feedback. But I think your approach is the right one and maximises the threat of your top man in Rivaldo.

Enigma looks grand, has hoovered up a lot of quality with a lot to like in the defence, attack and right flank. My only concern in the specific context of this game is whether the Chumpitaz/Beckenbauer partnership, for all its unending class, has the right physicality to deal with the hulking Vieri. The big Italian is probably their kryptonite here.

 

[Physiocrat]

Rui Costa's peak was as a central playmaker. A #10 who can drop deep and act as a playmaking CM. Rivaldo was a left sided Second Striker. I don't see them overlapping in their natural roles. Here looks like you are playing both of them out of position. Zidane's peak was in central role too. Wonder why you want to use a lesser version of Zidane here.

Whilst Zidane was better at Juventus than Real he occupied very similar places on the field despite him being the 1 in a 3412 at Juventus and one of the 4 in the lopsided 442 of Real's -Zidane's performance at Real can be put down to some extent to age and the overall incoherence of that side which certainly is not the case here. The left position for Rui Costa is nominal and solely there when out of possession and formed into the 4411. Rivaldo played all across the front line so to pigeon-hold him as a left forward is inaccurate. In this role he is broadly central and has ample opportunity to cut in and shoot - genius, flair and goals were what his was about and he has the perfect platform for it here.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Yeah, i also like physio's team tactically but reckon enigma has the upper hand quality wise as his team is also spot on tactically. Will follow the discussion more and then decide but for now im leaning more towards enigma.

 

[Physiocrat]

Yeah, I buy it, and a lot of great 10s have played that exact role before: defending the left of midfield, but drifting infield to dictate the attack. I cannot see it being popular from a draft aesthetics perspective though. Rivaldo in the inside-left channel, opening up the play with his left peg and swinging in crosses to Vieri would garner more positive feedback. But I think your approach is the right one and maximises the threat of your top man in Rivaldo.

Enigma looks grand, has hoovered up a lot of quality with a lot to like in the defence, attack and right flank. My only concern in the specific context of this game is whether the Chumpitaz/Beckenbauer partnership, for all its unending class, has the right physicality to deal with the hulking Vieri. The big Italian is probably their kryptonite here.

I'm glad someone else appreciates the set-up for Rivaldo. You also raise a good point about Der Kaiser and Chumpitaz. The latter had a serious leap on him but Vieri is a physical monster and holds the record for the most headed goals in Serie A history. Also Der Kaiser was at his best with a strong stopper alongside him such as Schwarzenbeck. With crosses from Overmars and Candela plus some clipped balls from a right central position from Rivaldo will provide a serious aerial challenge.

 

[idmanager]

Completely agree with keeping Rivaldo as near the goal as possible. An actual left winger would have been ideal but Rui Costa works too.

I do feel however that defensively Physio is a bit light. Very tough for me to say this but I wouldn't have ruled out starting a more hard working B2B in Ballack ahead of Scholes.

Both team will struggle defensively on 1 flank each. Physio on his left and Enigma on his left. Even with the cover for Facchetti, having a winger like Overmars and Vieri upfront, you can never rule out a cross and header going in against the run of play.

 

[Enigma_87]

As for Chumpitaz he's pretty well build:

and well strong in tackle:


He was one of the best SA defenders and a complete one - excellent marker to boot and elegant defender. His partnership with Beckenbauer is pretty natural IMO.

 

[Enigma_87]

As for defensive wise and both team respective left flanks:

We have Facchetti who is fast enough to stay with Overmars even with Zanetti overlapping we have an excellent cover in van Hanegem.

On the flip side I don't think Candela with the help of Vieira (who is also Physio's main asset in the defensive phase in midfield) could keep at bay the fantastic Jairzinho/Carlos Alberto combo.

A proven pair and a complimentary pairing they are too much for Candela(who I also rate defensively) to handle.


As an additional point, Jairzinho thrived in 1970 with two complete forwards in Tostao and Pele, providing space for him to attack the box. Here we have also two complete forwards who would make that fluid front three excel in possession.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Enigma_87 The way you've set up for your players makes sense it's just how well they match up with the opposition. That said if you're playing counter-attack someone with better passing than Stiles would be better release Jairzinho who is most likely to be your out ball. I don't think Candela and Vieira can completely snuff out Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto, this game will have goals, the question is who will score more. Further with respect to Facchetti and van Hanagem I think you underestimate the task they have especially with Rivaldo in the centre right position - this was deliberate so he could link with Overmars as well Zanetti. Also as good as van Hanagem is it is for his creativity he is known not his defensive contribution, relative to Vieira's defensive ability he's lightweight.

Here's a reminder of how good Overmars.


@idmanager I can see the lightweight argument but Scholes even as a DLP could put his foot in and Overmars was hard working and played in a 442. Further, Rui Costa didn't just stand around. With regards a left winger, I don't think it would suit my set up. In attack you really want five players to fit in all horizontal spaces - having a left winger would give up a player in the dead centre. Also my side really needs a playmaker further forwards which is why Rui Costa makes a lot of sense.

Now onto my attack. Chumpitaz was a quality defender and hardly lightweight but he gives Vieri 7 inches in height which wouldn't be an issue if Vieri couldn't jump, however he's scored the most headed goals in Serie A history. Also he's incredibly strong and could turn him and with a wiff of an opportunity he could certainly score. Vieri at his peak had a 0.85 goal per game record in Serie A in the early 2000s where Thuram, Nesta and Cannavaro were still going strong. He is the perfect 9: with great strength, pace, hold up play (he was tidy with ball too) and razor sharp finishing. Adjusted for the average number of goals per game he has a better goals scoring record than Marco van Basten (MVB is clearly the better striker though).

I've done some number crunching and compared his goal record (his best three consecutive league seasons) with the undisputed great Marco van Basten (NB. I am not saying Vieri is close to being as good as MVB). However I've normalised the record for the average goals per game to take account of the fewer goals scored in Serie A when MVB played. Here's the stats (taken from Wiki and Worldfootball net):


Between 1989/1990 and 1991/1992 (MVB's peak) the average goals per game was 2.267. In that time he scored 55 goals 88 games averaging 0.625 goals per game. If we divide 0.625 by 2.267 we know the average proportion of all goals scored in one match by MVB which is 27.6%.


Between 2000/2001 and 2002/3 (Vieri's peak) the average goals per game was 2.658. In that time he scored 64 goals 75 games averaging 0.853 goals per game. If we divide 0.853 by 2.658 we know the average proportion of all goals scored in one match by Vieri which is 32%.

So even adjusted for average goals per game Vieri has a better goalscoring record than Marco van Basten. Further with service from Scholes, Rui Costa, Rivaldo and Overmars he will score.


Finally let us remember some genius from Rivaldo:

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 The way you've set up for your players makes sense it's just how well they match up with the opposition. That said if you're playing counter-attack someone with better passing than Stiles would be better release Jairzinho who is most likely to be your out ball. I don't think Candela and Vieira can completely snuff out Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto, this game will have goals, the question is who will score more. Further with respect to Facchetti and van Hanagem I think you underestimate the task they have especially with Rivaldo in the centre right position - this was deliberate so he could link with Overmars as well Zanetti. Also as good as van Hanagem is it is for his creativity he is known not his defensive contribution, relative to Vieira's defensive ability he's lightweight.

Disagree, especially in the above matchup.

Hanegem is pretty tough in tackle and not afraid to stuck in, he's pretty astute in the defensive stage and for example in this game(short highlights):


you can see the rough side of him (he's #3 in the video). He was the whole package and his defensive contribution was never a question IMO:


Vieira himself was never the anchor or defensive midfielder himself. He played alongside Deschamps, Makelele and Gilberto Silva who did most of the dirty work.

Van Hanegem has Stiles and Netzer in midfield with of course der Kaiser himself when Stiles drops back. It's whole different mechanics than Scholes/Vieira holding the entire central midfield on their own.

If Vieira covers wide it would leave your core wide open and I don't see Rui Costa or Scholes stopping der Kaiser or Netzer going forward.

As for Stiles, we use him as an anchor/destroyer. His short passing is solid enough to do the defensive task he's asked to do, whilst we have many players in the middle (Beckenbauer, Netzer, Chumpitaz, van Hanegem) to ping a pass out wide. We're far from short in passing option and we definitely don't rely on Stiles. When in possession Beckenbauer will advance in the hole and him combining with Netzer and van Hanegem is the main creative force through the middle.

I love Overmars in terms of style and he's excellent player on its own, but he's up against arguably the best left full back/wing back in the game in Facchetti, who can match him in pace and athleticism.

 

[idmanager]

I can see the lightweight argument but Scholes even as a DLP could put his foot in and Overmars was hard working and played in a 442. Further, Rui Costa didn't just stand around. With regards a left winger, I don't think it would suit my set up. In attack you really want five players to fit in all horizontal spaces - having a left winger would give up a player in the dead centre. Also my side really needs a playmaker further forwards which is why Rui Costa makes a lot of sense.

Have to disagree with this when you play Scholes in the midfield and Vieira in the B2B role who wasnt exactly a nut with the ball going forward, While he does the job, I don't think you need another play maker necessarily.
I would gladly sacrifice a playmaker there for a natural left winger especially with Vieri upfront.

 

[BlackShark_80]

i'm not sure if Van Hanegem can work together with Beckenbauer and Netzer, because he hates Germans.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I definitely see the logic of Rivaldo in center and Rivaldo himself thought that was his best position.

My problem is that leaves Rui Costa and Candela against Jairzinho and Carlos Alberto and that to me is a distinct advantage amd potential route for goal.

 

[Enigma_87]

i'm not sure if Van Hanegem can work together with Beckenbauer and Netzer, because he hates Germans.

He'll be fine mate, besides as Pele once said:

"He's a great mate. As a player, he was marked out by intelligence rather than strength. He was more Brazilian than German as a footballer."
Pele, iconic Brazilian and Beckenbauer's team-mate at the New York Cosmos.

Van Hanegem/Netzer is a pretty complimentary pairing IMO and always wanted to field them together as soon as I chose that timeframe.

 

[Oaencha]

Great stuff from both managers. Will have a think becore voting. Rui Costa on the left is a strange one for me; still think you should have picked Pires.

 

[Ecstatic]

I will take the time to analyze your great posts before making my initial comments.

 

[2mufc0]

What was Eusébio's defensive work rate like? The unfortunate thing about watching compilations is they never show the other aspects of an attackers game other than goals, dribbles etc..

 

[Physiocrat]

@Enigma_87 I wasn't questioning whether van Hanegem could get stick in but the relative abilities for which Vieira and he are known. I think it is uncontravesial to note van Hanegem is noted for his creativity and Vieira for his engine, mentality and his all-round ability. It is true that Vieira was at his best with a deeper CM partner, I have made that point numerous times in the past, however this primarily so he could use his abilities going forward. This does not stop him covering and diving into tackles - I remember him pulling some excellently controlled slide tackles.

My point regarding Stiles was that in a primarily counter-attacking side I'd prefer a better passer. Netzer can drop deep to spray it long but you forgo an extra player further forward reducing your attacking threat relative to what it could have been.

With regards Overmars vs Facchetti I always er on the side of the attacker, everything else being equal, since the defender needs to stop the attacker all the time whereas the attacker needs only one mistake to do damage. Also he will be supported by Rivaldo and Zanetti who will provide chances for Vieri. And I repeat he is precisely the type of striker which can do the most damage against Der Kaiser and Chumpitaz. His goalscoring record is incredible.

@oneniltothearsenal Certainly C Alberto and Jairzinho are certainly a route to goal, but so is Overmars and Rivaldo vs Facchetti and van Hanagem. Further with Zanetti's flexibility is Vieira goes wider Zanetti can move into the midfield, like I noted he could in possession.

@idmanager I see your point but I think I have a bit of El Loco in me.

@Oaencha I see your point about Pires but I hate the guy. Possibly irrationally but watching United in the early 2000s against him I just wanted to punch him. Also as a subsidiary playmaker I think he works well but Bergkamp is more of a creator than Rivaldo hence the Rui Costa choice.

 

[2mufc0]

Agree with Physio that Vieri will enjoy playing against those two cb's, only question is how often Rui Costa will get down the wing and get the crosses in, he was more of a central player. Vieri will also provide some knockdowns for Rivaldo to get hold off and can see those two working well .

 

[Physiocrat]

Agree with Physio that Vieri will enjoy playing against those two cb's, only question is how often Rui Costa will get down the wing and get the crosses in, he was more of a central player. Vieri will also provide some knockdowns for Rivaldo to get hold off and can see those two working well .

The plan for Rui Costa is to drift into the attacking central midfield position to pull the strings behind Vieri and Rivaldo. The crosses from the left will come from Candela bombing down the left - have a look at my formation in possession spoiler in the OP.

 

[antohan]

Not entirely sold on @Enigma_87 side but I have absolutely no idea what @Physiocrat is playing at.

 

[Physiocrat]

Not entirely sold on @Enigma_87 side but I have absolutely no idea what @Physiocrat is playing at.

In what way?

 

[Physiocrat]

Here's a good video of Rui Costa especially in showing his ability to work the wide spaces.

 

[Oaencha]

@Physiocrat

Why have you got a backwards arrow on Scholes? Surely there's no need for him to drop back with Vieira next to him.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Physiocrat

Why have you got a backwards arrow on Scholes? Surely there's no need for him to drop back with Vieira next to him.

Have a look at the formation in possession picture which is spoilered in the OP. It will make sense then, I hope.

 

[Oaencha]

Have a look at the formation in possession picture which is spoilered in the OP. It will make sense then, I hope.

That makes even less sense. Why is Scholes at the base of the midfield with Vieira ahead of him? Scholes could be a liability at tackling and shouldn't be anywhere near the DM position. You should have swapped Vieira and Scholes around in the possession picture.

 

[Physiocrat]

That makes even less sense. Why is Scholes at the base of the midfield with Vieira ahead of him? Scholes could be a liability at tackling and shouldn't be anywhere near the DM position. You should have swapped Vieira and Scholes around in the possession picture.

Scholes is there so he has the most passing options possible. Essentially he's just taking up the Pirlo position in the diamond at Milan in possession. Vieira was a defensive box-to-box so want to utilise his engine forwards and back. Further, it allows Zanetti to aid the midfield in a Lahmesque role which isn't a problem defensively since he has no left winger.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

@oneniltothearsenal Certainly C Alberto and Jairzinho are certainly a route to goal, but so is Overmars and Rivaldo vs Facchetti and van Hanagem. Further with Zanetti's flexibility is Vieira goes wider Zanetti can move into the midfield, like I noted he could in possession.

Here is how I see it. Instead of exploiting and overloading Facchetti solo on flank, you have Zanetti with an arrow pointing diagonally to midfield and even show Zanetti in midfield in your other possession graphic. So to me that doesn't create the overload on Facchetti but rather runs your attack more centrally into Nobby and Captain America. On the other side I can also see why Pires or someone like him would work better than Rui Costa. It would seem more ideal to have someone like Pires that could still create and move centrally sometimes but could also challenge Carlos Alberto on his outside. Overall I think enigma is set up a little narrow but instead of of stretching that and pulling some players out of their comfort zones, your formation looks like you are attacking right into Enigma's strengths if that makes sense?

 

[Enigma_87]

Scholes is there so he has the most passing options possible. Essentially he's just taking up the Pirlo position in the diamond at Milan in possession. Vieira was a defensive box-to-box so want to utilise his engine forwards and back. Further, it allows Zanetti to aid the midfield in a Lahmesque role which isn't a problem defensively since he has no left winger.

Erm, Facchetti? Eusebio could easily drop to the left as well.

@Enigma_87 I wasn't questioning whether van Hanegem could get stick in but the relative abilities for which Vieira and he are known. I think it is uncontravesial to note van Hanegem is noted for his creativity and Vieira for his engine, mentality and his all-round ability. It is true that Vieira was at his best with a deeper CM partner, I have made that point numerous times in the past, however this primarily so he could use his abilities going forward. This does not stop him covering and diving into tackles - I remember him pulling some excellently controlled slide tackles.

Actually van Hanegem is known for his engine and great teamwork as well. He's one of the best box to box midfielders and also operating in his favorite LCM zone.

Have a look at the game against Celtic how many interceptions he makes, breaking up the play, but also covering and sliding into tackles.

Of course Vieira is solid defensively but Scholes is not as we very well known, especially in deeper position. Rui Costa is unlikely to put a shift in and with Vieira having to cover both the left side and also the center you are a bit exposed there as you can't leave Beckenbauer/Netzer duo unchallenged in the middle.

My point regarding Stiles was that in a primarily counter-attacking side I'd prefer a better passer. Netzer can drop deep to spray it long but you forgo an extra player further forward reducing your attacking threat relative to what it could have been.

I don't think we lack passers tbh. Even if you just single out Stiles, his job is far from a playmaking one. He's an anchor who is tasked to keep things simple and opt for short simple passes to the nearest team mate. We don't rely on him to start the attacks from deep, there are plenty of other team mates who can do just that - Beckenbauer, Chumpitaz, Netzer, etc..

 

[Physiocrat]

Here is how I see it. Instead of exploiting and overloading Facchetti solo on flank, you have Zanetti with an arrow pointing diagonally to midfield and even show Zanetti in midfield in your other possession graphic. So to me that doesn't create the overload on Facchetti but rather runs your attack more centrally into Nobby and Captain America. On the other side I can also see why Pires or someone like him would work better than Rui Costa. It would seem more ideal to have someone like Pires that could still create and move centrally sometimes but could also challenge Carlos Alberto on his outside. Overall I think enigma is set up a little narrow but instead of of stretching that and pulling some players out of their comfort zones, your formation looks like you are attacking right into Enigma's strengths if that makes sense?

I can see that however Zanetti can provide the underlap run against Facchetti which can be as dangerous as the overlap. Also Rivaldo can pull rightish too so while it isn't a typical way of exploiting his left side I think it can work well. Also Zanetti has some freedom to move wider if necessary. As I pointed out before it's a flexible Pep era Lahmesque role.

If you see the vid I posted from Euro 2000 Rui Costa is perfectly able outwide. That said someone who could go on the outside of C Alberto would be handy.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Game is pretty much finished and my comment is not based on this game at all as i also think physio is a bit to lightweight defensive wise but Scholes defensive game is underrated as feck. One of the biggest myths in world of football that he cant defend.

 

[Enigma_87]

Game is pretty much finished and my comment is not based on this game at all as i also think physio is a bit to lightweight defensive wise but Scholes defensive game is underrated as feck. One of the biggest myths in world of football that he cant defend.

Nah, mate I don't mean he can't defend. My comment was towards Vieira doing too much work both on the flank and centrally which would leave Scholes exposed.

When Scholes was younger and in 4-4-2 Becks and Giggs were doing a lot of defensive work and shoring our midfield with the ever present Keane there as well. I can't see either Overmars or especially Rui Costa putting such support which would open up gaps in midfield.

@Physiocrat on Rui Costa I don't have issues with him in that role to be honest, but as a main playmaker (and he's pretty damn good one) think you had to sacrifice Scholes for another B2B or DM to support the midfield.

From my understanding in possession you are trying to set up Scholes/Rui Costa core centrally a bit like Pirlo/Rui Costa at Milan in their CL run with Zanetti/Vieira as LCM/RCM instead of Gattuso and Seedorf?

I don't think you actually need another playmaker in the side with Rui Costa already there. He's perfectly capable of running the show if he has the midfield base to support him.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Enigma_87 didnt target you it was a general comment and as i said, not based on this game and this specific situation.