De Gea, Pogba, Sanchez, Bailly, Lukaku and Matic would start for most top teams.
The Actual Quality of our Players
- Thread starter NinjaFletch
- Start date
The first three would.
I do think that we have come to massively over-estimate some of our players because of the general decline in quality in our squad over the last ten years
For example, let's pick on Valencia. We might say, "solid performer, done well to convert from winger to full back, difficult to beat in one vs one situations" BUT "can't cross, can't dribble, ponderous in possession, no left-foot, not particularly great in the air, no great positional sense"
Mata we might say "excellent technical ability, has a habit of providing key goals and assists" BUT "very slow, very weak, passes backwards most of the time, no tricks, no defensive ability"
Smalling we might say "great in the air, excellent natural defender on his day" BUT "prone to errors and lapses in concentration, poor leadership skills, confidence seems easily knocked, dreadful on the ball, gives away needless fouls, clumsy"
Even with our better players, for example Pogba, you might say "wonderful technique, excellent passing range, capable of scoring and assisting goals, fantastic feet" BUT "lethargic at times, can't tackle, doesn't impose himself physically, tactically poor, seemingly more interested in style over substance"
Now I'm not saying that you can't apply this to all players, but when talking of really great players, the positives far outweigh the negatives, for example;
Ronaldo we might say "fantastic dribbler, goal machine, full of flair, brave, confident, great in the air, fantastic pace, fantastic strength" BUT "tends to over-indulge at times"
For example, let's pick on Valencia. We might say, "solid performer, done well to convert from winger to full back, difficult to beat in one vs one situations" BUT "can't cross, can't dribble, ponderous in possession, no left-foot, not particularly great in the air, no great positional sense"
Mata we might say "excellent technical ability, has a habit of providing key goals and assists" BUT "very slow, very weak, passes backwards most of the time, no tricks, no defensive ability"
Smalling we might say "great in the air, excellent natural defender on his day" BUT "prone to errors and lapses in concentration, poor leadership skills, confidence seems easily knocked, dreadful on the ball, gives away needless fouls, clumsy"
Even with our better players, for example Pogba, you might say "wonderful technique, excellent passing range, capable of scoring and assisting goals, fantastic feet" BUT "lethargic at times, can't tackle, doesn't impose himself physically, tactically poor, seemingly more interested in style over substance"
Now I'm not saying that you can't apply this to all players, but when talking of really great players, the positives far outweigh the negatives, for example;
Ronaldo we might say "fantastic dribbler, goal machine, full of flair, brave, confident, great in the air, fantastic pace, fantastic strength" BUT "tends to over-indulge at times"
Matic was a starter for Chelsea and they wanted Lukaku.
Not trying to be picky, I agree the other three are decent. I'm just not happy with general quality of squad I think it needs a lot of money invested.
All of them would. Bailly would start for most sides in the world and Matic's last two clubs have been Chelsea and Man Utd.
1 shot on target and not for the first time this season. Too slow going forward and repeatedly making mistakes and losing the ball.
To think these prima donnas are earning 1/4 £M a week! Makes my blood boil.
To think these prima donnas are earning 1/4 £M a week! Makes my blood boil.
Yes, you most certainly are.
As @Pogue Mahone pointed out correctly, any team can have a laundry list of what hasn’t gone right, and I’m unsure where @TheReligion is going - as far as trying to make a point. To me, I think the only takeaway from something like this is that what’s happening on the pitch isn’t simple. As always, reductionism reigns supreme on the Caf. The problem is Mourinho. The problem is Pogba. The problem is 4-2-3-1 (ever noticed how whatever formation we play, if we lose, it’s wrong on here?). We need to buy these 3 players. We need to sell these players. All very simplistic solutions to what is actually a more complex, multifaceted process. There probably is a very long list of reasons why things are clicking perfectly. I’m somewhat skeptical that switching to a 4-3-3, or firing Mourinho, or benching Lukaku, are the oh so simple silver bullets some think they are.
We've been investing heavily over the past 5 years. Its the manager who is now responsible for binding it all together into something tangible. You can spend another 200m this summer and still not have success unless Mourinho can galvanize all the players into one team.
I made this exact point to my mates at the pub yesterday. When Martial and Rashford were subbed in we looked like creating something, surprise, surprise.
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True, to an extent. Most might say Pep’s hardly put a foot wrong, yet his team just went out of the cup after losing to Wigan. Certainly Mourinho carries a heavy burden to make it work, but it’s the players on the pitch that have to deliver at the end of the day. Totally agree with your point though, throwing money at bringing in more players isn’t the only answer. It’s pretty much everything, bringing in the right players, keeping the right players and letting the right ones go, Mou getting the tactics, personnel and formation right, the players buying into the system and executing, avoiding injuries, having a bit of luck, etc. There’s not an easy way to make it all click.
The quality of our players can be outlined when we compare with the other top teams in the PL:
(We disregard City just to avoid this being called a City thread)
Chelsea: Alonso, Rudiger, Azpilicueta, Cahill, Fabregas, Kante, Hazard, Willian.
Spurs: Sanchez, Alderweireld, Dier, Aurier, Wanyama, Dembele, Eriksen, Kane
Liverpool: Van Dijk, Mane, Salah
Utd: De Gea, Pogba, Sanchez
Chelsea and Spurs have more quality throughout the team than we have. Liverpool are on a par with us player for player but get more out of their team under Klopp and are far superior to us as an attacking force.
(We disregard City just to avoid this being called a City thread)
Chelsea: Alonso, Rudiger, Azpilicueta, Cahill, Fabregas, Kante, Hazard, Willian.
Spurs: Sanchez, Alderweireld, Dier, Aurier, Wanyama, Dembele, Eriksen, Kane
Liverpool: Van Dijk, Mane, Salah
Utd: De Gea, Pogba, Sanchez
Chelsea and Spurs have more quality throughout the team than we have. Liverpool are on a par with us player for player but get more out of their team under Klopp and are far superior to us as an attacking force.
That's very far from the truth, and when you can only point to five signings over five years (Im not for a second having the Falcao at United described as a 'very good player' – you only have to look at how he got on at Chelsea to see that it wasn't an issue with United that he didn't do well – he simply hadn't recovered from his injury) then it proves the point in itself.
I don't think there is a club in world football thats spent so much money and had so little to show for it than us. Our recruitment has been a completely scattergun approach of chucking money at players either ill suited to the club or not good enough.
I'd really love to be one of those that believes that the only issue is that Mourinho is a shit manager, but we've done this dance before and I'm sick of the deja vu
Hate to say it but Pep has been significantly more successful than Jose in the transfer department and also in the 'getting the players to play as I want them to' department. Jose has been a bit lacking in both regards and the variance in table positions just underscores the point. City have done a great job of creating a deep squad of talent who are quite interchangeable when injuries, suspensions, and loss of form happen. Our squad depth is not quite at that level yet, and so when the likes of Zlatan, Bailly, or Pogba are removed from the battlefield, we tend to look exposed at those positions.
Falcao, Di Maria, Pogba, Ibra, Sanchez were all widely conidered world class and the likes of Mata, Bailly, and Matic were viewed as solid squad quality players who could round of a good team. Falcao is now back to knocking in goals for fun at Monaco and was widely viewed as one of the world's best strikers before the injury, so its completely wrong to label him as a poor player. He struggled with us and Chelsea, but that now appears to have been a blip since he is back to his old form.
In the simplest of terms, we have bought very good to world class calibre players over the past 5 years. Its the wrong choice of managers and constant swapping of older players to appease incoming managers that has prevented us from gaining any significant traction and momentum.
Apart from Chelsea and maybe Arsenal, which top team would Lukaku start for?
Man United and Chelsea definitely since both clubs wanted to buy him last summer.
It's pointless including Zlatan as world class as he wasn't by the time we got him and certainly isn't now. By that logic, why not re-register Bobby Charlton as a player and include him as world class.
Apart from Chelsea, I said. I was asking which top team strikers he'd displace (seeing as you think he'd start for most top teams) and I'm struggling to think of many.
If a club already has a top striker like Aguero, Lewandowski, et al, then they are obviously not going to be in a market to replace them are they. The only clubs you can therefore evaluate are the ones who are in need of a top striker. And last year both us and Chelsea were after Lukaku. We could've literally bought any striker on the market if we wanted to and both Jose and Conte chose to pursue him.
I’m not so sure I totally agree with that, to be honest. Some of Pep’s best performers this year aren’t his purchases, they are players he inherited (Fernandinho, Silva, Aguero). Isn’t the jury still out on both Pep’s and Jose’s purchases, really? With the success City are having, it’s just too easy to paint everything he did as a success (his goalies look a disaster, still) and I’m still not totally convinced by his CM and Fullback purchases. Are we really writing off Lindelof, Lukaku, Sanchez already? Certainly I agree to an extent - their success certainly paints their transfer business as a success, and I can see your point that seems more coherent than United’s “scattergun” narrative. I’m skeptical we’re buying players without any plan, and I think a bit more time is needed before we can definitively say we haven’t got the players Mou wants with the attributes he wants. Jury is still out for me, but you might be right.
Sterling has also been better than expected this year. I agree with what you're saying about Pep inheriting a great squad, but he has obviously taken them to an entirely new level which was possible through City buying well in recent years to create a big and deep squad that was a great foundation for Pep to dive into.
I'm not disputing that Falcao was a good player. I'm not disputing that he's since recovered some form (although I would also note that nobody would use Memphis's goal scoring in the French Leagues to argue he has become a good enough player), what I'm arguing is that Falcao was a half fit player who struggled with gravity, staying on his feet and generally looking like a football player in his entire two years in the league. He was abysmal and it went far beyond misuse.
It was entirely predictable too. The club recklessly rushed in to signing him less than a couple of months after he'd been rushed back from an ACL injury at the eleventh hour with no discernible plan for how he was intended to fit into the team. He had a whole string of question marks hanging over him at that point in his career and we never should have gone near him (and I somewhat suspect that we only did because City were interested and it was seen as an easy win).
If that's going to be held up as positive proof of the club's transfer plan then it's no wonder we're struggling. The less said about Di Maria's signing the better, too.
Team may not be as good as some fans think it is, but it can certainly play significantly better than it currently/normally does.
Players are very much the divas in control, they don’t like the style/tactics, they play crap, become disinterested, play even more crap, it’s a negative spiral. (FWIW I think they have a right to be pissed off with the tactics)
The players effort is matching the Chelsea saga, it’s not difficult to see. I honestly don’t understand how people can slag off LVG and accept this, it baffles the mind. Until the season is over, we are not officially 2nd place, some of you seem to forget that.
Players are very much the divas in control, they don’t like the style/tactics, they play crap, become disinterested, play even more crap, it’s a negative spiral. (FWIW I think they have a right to be pissed off with the tactics)
The players effort is matching the Chelsea saga, it’s not difficult to see. I honestly don’t understand how people can slag off LVG and accept this, it baffles the mind. Until the season is over, we are not officially 2nd place, some of you seem to forget that.
Seems like you agree he's not in that top bracket then, which is all I was arguing.
In regards to the bolded, it's not as if we were spoilt for choice really. Lukaku, Morata, Belotti, Lacazette, Icardi and Aubameyang were the only real options when it came to available strikers. Then when you consider the profile of striker Mourinho was looking for, it was basically just a choice between Morata, Lukaku, Belotti and possibly Icardi. It's hardly like we bought Lukaku over elite players.
Sanchez, Pogba, Mata, Lukaku, Matic have all looked like top 5-10 in the world in thier previous clubs and look terrible for us.
Lots of people talking about how boring it was under Fergie. It was at times but he got us 13 league titles. He earned his dips.
Lots of people talking about how boring it was under Fergie. It was at times but he got us 13 league titles. He earned his dips.
Mata and Lukaka were never top 5-10 in the world. Disagree with Sanchez too. Pogba and Matic both had stints when they looked like genuine world beaters.
Matic looked like a top 5 DM...under the same manager we have now. Something is wrong and it's not just on the manager. There is something wrong with the culture at the club; the players know that they can underperform and nothing will happen to them, they get paid top dollar and perform like 2nd tier footballers.
LVG was a coach that was notorious for micro managing his players. He did coach attacking patterns and was in fact a specialist with the ball. Our players still looked clueless in attack with him at the helm, and we were actually better when teams came on to us with the ball and we could counter attack.
Exactly this.
Put Mourinho at City and Pep at United and I am sure United would be in City’s position now and City would be playing defensive against every decent opposition creating feck all chances and selling De Bruyne and Silva, because they would perform the way United’s players perform now.
It's not about the players, it's about mentality and we don't have it since Fergie. Many WC players came in and became ordinary in our team. SAF won the league with O'Shea, Cleverley, Welbeck, Chicharito, 38 years old Giggs, Evans, flop De Gea, Buttner, Rafael and many more as a part of our first team... We can't put out one good performance with one of the most expensive squads ever assembled.
Sane and Sterling would not be flops here, because they fit in a system far better. Sane owns that LW and Sterling's great on the right. We have about 3 players who can do a job on the right (Sanchez, Martial, Rashford), but none who've consistently nailed it down. Our RW options are obviously terrible, Mikhi didn't work out, so now we're stuck with Mata who offers the sum total of nothing in build-up (0 pace, strength, dribbling).
Imo our biggest issue is our wide forwards, none of them stretch the play and provide an outlet for the team to attack. Sanchez keeps bringing the ball backwards and into the centre, he hasn't played like a wide forward yet at all. Pogba, Matic etc are all good players, but our wide forward options compared to all the other top 5 PL teams are poor. You have essentially a yet to be defined Sanchez and Mata, vs Mane/Salah, Hazard/Willian/Pedro, Sane/Sterling, Eriksen/Alli/Son/Lamela.
Ours are just poor in comparison and obviously a lot of the blame for that falls on Mourinho. He decided to go for Sanchez, when Martial was showing some decent form in that position, and has done nothing to address the RW position. Perhaps its the coaching too, but Mourinho's Chelsea, Inter and Madrid side played some great football, so imo right now it's really the attacking signings and players that are really letting us down.
Edit - imo if we started playing a front 3 of Martial - Lukaku - Sanchez and Pogba as an AM in a midfield 3 we'd look a lot better. But we're not. So we look poor. Even then we'd still struggle a bit as none of those aside from Lukaku like to make forward runs the way other teams' wide forwards do.
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You've completely misunderstood what I was saying. He's good enough for big clubs who are in the market for a top striker. Attempting to link him to other clubs who aren't in the market for a new top striker is a pointless thought experiment. The two clubs who wanted new strikers actively pursued him.
We have good players.
City have good players, but they perform to their utmost maximum and are more than the sum of their parts.
We don't and aren't.
City have good players, but they perform to their utmost maximum and are more than the sum of their parts.
We don't and aren't.
We have good players, for some reason they're going backward compare to Mourinho's first season.
The overal club management is confusing. Dropping lingard (can’t believe I’m actually saying that) martial and shaw for older players while they had finally managed to play themselves into form for us. Not replacing carrick and relying on Matic too much. Dropping our player of the season last year straight away at the start of the new season. That saps players confidence. Our full backs provide no width or danger at all. Our centre backs can’t pass a ball 5 yards under pressure. Lukaku needs 4 chances to score one. I’m hoping he improves in his second season if we can finally get some service to him. We’ve not been creating good quality chances. I don’t he’s been anything great but he’s feeding on scraps as we don’t have a plan or a style.
Our first team scouting and youth recruitment has been pretty terrible for years. Signing AS7 when we needed a RW. Letting our rivals snap up really good, young and often inexpensive players who hit their peak with them and end up looking like complete bargains while pretty much 75% or more of the players we invested in post Fergie flop. Our scouting is a mess!! The profile of player we go for is all wrong. We need to start developing stars again and giving them a genuine shot. De Gea and Martial show that if you go to the really top shelf with youth there’s a much bigger chance they will come good in a season or two. That’s what Chelsea were doing when they got Salah de bruyne and lukaku but didn’t play them. They were buying absolute top prospects along with established internationals and the top players in the league outside the top four and blooding in the youngsters or loaning them out and selling them for big profits. Their scouting approach was clearly on point. Buying Sanchez or greizman is the jewel in the crown approach, relying on one player to come in and turn our fortunes around isn’t going to happen. We need a new approach, our foundations are still way too shaky given the money we continue to spend. It’s simply mediocre if you judge it on return for investment.
And then finally- What actually goes on at training when we can’t string 5 passes together and play like a relegation threatened team against one the weakest teams left in the CL though? We have a 90 million pound striker and a 100 million pound midfielder lads. That’s worth more than 3 whole Sevilla teams. Someone is getting mugged somewhere. The third most expensive team ever assembled? Christ on a bike!
Our first team scouting and youth recruitment has been pretty terrible for years. Signing AS7 when we needed a RW. Letting our rivals snap up really good, young and often inexpensive players who hit their peak with them and end up looking like complete bargains while pretty much 75% or more of the players we invested in post Fergie flop. Our scouting is a mess!! The profile of player we go for is all wrong. We need to start developing stars again and giving them a genuine shot. De Gea and Martial show that if you go to the really top shelf with youth there’s a much bigger chance they will come good in a season or two. That’s what Chelsea were doing when they got Salah de bruyne and lukaku but didn’t play them. They were buying absolute top prospects along with established internationals and the top players in the league outside the top four and blooding in the youngsters or loaning them out and selling them for big profits. Their scouting approach was clearly on point. Buying Sanchez or greizman is the jewel in the crown approach, relying on one player to come in and turn our fortunes around isn’t going to happen. We need a new approach, our foundations are still way too shaky given the money we continue to spend. It’s simply mediocre if you judge it on return for investment.
And then finally- What actually goes on at training when we can’t string 5 passes together and play like a relegation threatened team against one the weakest teams left in the CL though? We have a 90 million pound striker and a 100 million pound midfielder lads. That’s worth more than 3 whole Sevilla teams. Someone is getting mugged somewhere. The third most expensive team ever assembled? Christ on a bike!
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Lack of continuity in our line-up, all these changes, does not do us any favours at all.
I understand that they have a squad, need to manage total games and minutes, but everyone is trying to guess the line-ups in the days leading up and no one ever seems to get it right. There are always surprises from Jose. Back when we were world class playing in UCL finals and semi's every season consistently, our first 11 almost entirely picked itself.
It seems as if Jose cant make his mind up, and just keeps changing things.
There are currently only 5 players who are consistently picked most games; De Gea, Valencia, Matic, Sanchez and Lukaku. There should be at least 9 or 10 players that are no-brainers.
I understand that they have a squad, need to manage total games and minutes, but everyone is trying to guess the line-ups in the days leading up and no one ever seems to get it right. There are always surprises from Jose. Back when we were world class playing in UCL finals and semi's every season consistently, our first 11 almost entirely picked itself.
It seems as if Jose cant make his mind up, and just keeps changing things.
There are currently only 5 players who are consistently picked most games; De Gea, Valencia, Matic, Sanchez and Lukaku. There should be at least 9 or 10 players that are no-brainers.
City got Sterling, Otamendi and Walker. Were they the best players in their positions? Our squad is pretty good. Probably top heavy though with some poor defenders. The squad has some flaws but it's better than what we're seeing. Mourinho is mostly responsible imo. If he managed City, Liverpool or Spurs, I think they'd produce football just as boring as ours.
A Centre Back, a Right Back and maybe a centre midfielder to go with Pogba and Matic and there's no excuses not to win the league. That said, I'm not sure about Lukaku. His form has vanished.
A Centre Back, a Right Back and maybe a centre midfielder to go with Pogba and Matic and there's no excuses not to win the league. That said, I'm not sure about Lukaku. His form has vanished.
We have spent over 300 million since LVG left, its not exactly the same 11.
Plus we have all seen these players play better then they are doing(well the attacking ones at least), not to mention, good managers should improve players, the only attacking player we have really seen improve under Mourinho is Lingard the rest have stagnated or regressed. That isnt good enough!
Honestly I think if we first Mourinho, what happens next would depend on the manager we bring in. I certainly think their are managers who can get more out of this team going forward, though i suppose you could argue their might not be a manager who can bring out more from this group of players as a defensive unit.
Plus we have all seen these players play better then they are doing(well the attacking ones at least), not to mention, good managers should improve players, the only attacking player we have really seen improve under Mourinho is Lingard the rest have stagnated or regressed. That isnt good enough!
Honestly I think if we first Mourinho, what happens next would depend on the manager we bring in. I certainly think their are managers who can get more out of this team going forward, though i suppose you could argue their might not be a manager who can bring out more from this group of players as a defensive unit.
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