"The quality of the squad, the composition of that squad, means that any new manager coming in will inherit a great squad of players," Gill told the AP on April 23, 2013. "And yes he may, whenever that is ... clearly want to bring in one or two of his own people, new players. But he won't want to change the squad wholesale because (then) he won't be our manager. We've got to be consistent with that and that's what we are planning on."
The 'Awful Squad' Brigade
- Thread starter Sarni
- Start date
The coaching squad is the one that's awful
This is my opinion also.
The squad does need 3 or 4 changes for sure. I dont think anyone can argue against that.
I also think Moyes is the man to move us forward.
The backroom staff that Moyes has employed are woeful. In particular Lumsden, Round and P Nev. Chris Woods by all accounts is excellent (whats with his bluetooth headset by the way)
I would like to think that aswell as addressing the issues in our first team, he is also looking at some more reputable coaches.
This thread... you're kind of reading it and thinking yeah maybe we do have a good enough squad to be challenging for the league this year.
And then you think about all of smallings performances at right back, all of Rio's performances the last few years bar maybe 6 games, and you think about our CM of rarely fit Fellaini/Carrick/Fletch plus giggs and cleverly... and really the squad isn't good enough.
Obviously the 'Fergie was so good he papered over the cracks of a bad squad' thing seems like a bit of a narrative... but if you actually look at the squad it really is low on depth at the back (as players get old) and any quality in the middle (has been for years). Like for me it's just undeniable that the squad should be better... are people saying this isn't the case??
And then you think about all of smallings performances at right back, all of Rio's performances the last few years bar maybe 6 games, and you think about our CM of rarely fit Fellaini/Carrick/Fletch plus giggs and cleverly... and really the squad isn't good enough.
Obviously the 'Fergie was so good he papered over the cracks of a bad squad' thing seems like a bit of a narrative... but if you actually look at the squad it really is low on depth at the back (as players get old) and any quality in the middle (has been for years). Like for me it's just undeniable that the squad should be better... are people saying this isn't the case??
How, how on earth can you figure out the backroom staff people aren't good?
It's like in recent years when people had a go as Fergie's assistants because it was easier to blame them rather than the manager. With Moyes especially behind hands on when it comes to training, blaming his people is a complete cop out.
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Now it seems if we going to get rid of troublemakers and players not good enough for United we will be going against everything Gill said. They supposedly didn't want Jose for exactly what is going to happen in the summer.
We don't, only the players will have sussed out if they are or not.
In our current situation i would say its easier to blame Moyes than anyone else and it seems a lot of people are jumping on this bandwaggon without giving much thought to anything else.
Sure Moyes is making mistakes, and will continue to do so, but he has the character to learn from those mistakes.
I drew my conclusions about the coaching staff by spending time researching.
I don't think Moyes is the problem here. The squad needs improving and then they need coaching.
Coaches, coach. Managers manage.
What is there to think about? The buck stops with the manager. If the staff isn't good enough, it's his fault. If the team isn't motivated/organized, it's his fault. And since he also sees himself as a coach and spends a lot of time on the training ground, everything regarding coaching is 100% on him.
So we need big changes in the squad and we need to replace the backroom staff. But the manager is just fine...
I actually said 3 or 4 changes in our squad but yes. That is my belief. We have the right man incharge, ofcourse its not gone as well as he would have hoped this season, but there are a number of factors behind that rather than just moaning ''Moyes isnt good enough, he doesnt know what he is doing''
What is that opinion based on?
One thing Moyes cant control is players confidence and unfortunately we lost a few games whilst we had key players missing (Rooney, RVP and so on) This knocked the confidence of the fringe players that rely on confidence to actually be any good - The likes of Cleverley, Rio, Jones, Smalling, Hernandez, Valencia.
We then got our key men back fit but it seems that some players confidence is beyond repair. Conseuquently we carry on playing crap, which then brings the key men down to that same level.
This season is now a write off - and some players careers will soon vanish into obscurity - Cleverley being the most obvious.
I no its not the popular opinion to support Moyes but we should stick with him, things will be very different next season. It sure as hell cant get worse.
This is the squad that made us look like Stoke last night.
Roberto
Salino
Manolas
Marcano
Holebas
N’Dinga
Maniatis
Dominguez
Fuster
Campbell
Olaitan
Never heard of any of them. Our squad is 100 times better that that one, its also better than Liverpool's, our squad should have won easy last night and should also be at least 4th in the league. Its that clown Moyes not the squad.
Roberto
Salino
Manolas
Marcano
Holebas
N’Dinga
Maniatis
Dominguez
Fuster
Campbell
Olaitan
Never heard of any of them. Our squad is 100 times better that that one, its also better than Liverpool's, our squad should have won easy last night and should also be at least 4th in the league. Its that clown Moyes not the squad.
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There are obvious squad issues that need fixed, that much is clear. But, Moyes has had two transfer windows and about 70m so far to address that.
The squad issue complaints can only take you so far though. I don't think anyone looking ahead towards this season, even without signing anyone at all, would have guessed that United would be this poor in every aspect. If you would've told me at the beginning of the season that United would be where we are now I would've laughed at you.
This squad has no belief, no motivation, and no real game plan for any particular game. We look clueless, and to me most of that can be put directly at Moyes' feet. I've tried my best to support him but he genuinely hasn't done a single thing this season to make me think he's capable of being successful here.
The only aspect of this season that makes me want to give Moyes any more is our injuries, we have been extremely unlucky in that regard. Large parts of the season without RvP, Rooney, Fellaini, Rafael, Jones, Carrick will take its toll on the performances of the team.
That does bring up another worry though, why would he ever get rid of Fabio? A player capable of covering both left back and right back and we sell him for a nominal fee and allow Smalling to play out of position and look terrible.
The squad issue complaints can only take you so far though. I don't think anyone looking ahead towards this season, even without signing anyone at all, would have guessed that United would be this poor in every aspect. If you would've told me at the beginning of the season that United would be where we are now I would've laughed at you.
This squad has no belief, no motivation, and no real game plan for any particular game. We look clueless, and to me most of that can be put directly at Moyes' feet. I've tried my best to support him but he genuinely hasn't done a single thing this season to make me think he's capable of being successful here.
The only aspect of this season that makes me want to give Moyes any more is our injuries, we have been extremely unlucky in that regard. Large parts of the season without RvP, Rooney, Fellaini, Rafael, Jones, Carrick will take its toll on the performances of the team.
That does bring up another worry though, why would he ever get rid of Fabio? A player capable of covering both left back and right back and we sell him for a nominal fee and allow Smalling to play out of position and look terrible.
One of the key strengths Moyes' apologists argue in defence of their chosen one was his ability to build a resilient Everton side with limited transfer funds.
This is a great strength of Moyes, according to his devotees, but yet the title-winning side he inherited at Manchester United is so pitifully weak that he must spend hundreds of millions to rebuild.
I just don't understand this way of thinking, and it hurts so much that our fans are willing to betray the players to find excuse after excuse for this man who somehow manages to look more incompetent with every passing week.
This is a great strength of Moyes, according to his devotees, but yet the title-winning side he inherited at Manchester United is so pitifully weak that he must spend hundreds of millions to rebuild.
I just don't understand this way of thinking, and it hurts so much that our fans are willing to betray the players to find excuse after excuse for this man who somehow manages to look more incompetent with every passing week.
Does anyone really think these players are not good enough to beat Sunderland and Swansea in the cup? To beat west brom at home? Or Newcastle? At the moment the problem isn't lack of quality for a league or European challenge because we can't consistently beat the teams who top four teams should swat aside. Bringing in quality won't improve anything if we can't get any swagger or confidence going.
The squad has gone from needing a bit of tinkering to a major overhaul since the summer. How has that happened?
They should have beaten them easily, is that down to the players not performing deliberately or that their confidence has been shot to hell by managerial decisions? Bloody hell I'm full of questions today.
Well injuries have made the squad seem worse than it is at full strength. Then there are players who have unexpectedly regressed (Rio, Rafael, Vidic, Carrick, Giggs) whether through injuries, age or otherwise. And then there are a few players who have been underused or misused - see Smalling, Januzaj, Fabio, Zaha, Kagawa, Anderson (he at least had spurts of being very good in the last two seasons).
The squad is shit but the management has been worse. It should be challenging for fourth.
So many players that are either past-it or never even had it.
So many players that are either past-it or never even had it.
7 points from 6 games to start the season. I'd say it was an underwhelming start at the very least. Even the games United have been winning they've looked hopeless in a lot of them. The manager takes the blame for that but so should the players.
I'm not trying very hard to defend him because ultimately I don't care. I just watch games like last night and see utterly pathetic performances from so many players then come on here and see numerous Moyes out threads. I think people go overboard with their portion of blame at Moyes' door, that's all.
Moyes simply not getting the best out of his players.
Is the thread title a pseudonym we have written across the team bus or something?
Why we should stick with him? Because Fergie said so or because 'we are better than others and give the manager time'. Both of these reasons are completely irrational.
Even as you say it is the coaches problem, then still it is 100% on Moyes. He decided to sack our coaches and get his coaches. Every action has consequences and it would be totally retarded to not blame him for changing the backroom but blaming his minions.
The last line is something that we have heard here a lot of time. Practically a few persons say it after every defeat. And is becoming worse. And sure as hell will become even more worse. And if Moyes continue next season it will be even worse than in this one. The transformation from Allardyce to Guardiola won't happen, regardless if some people fantasize it in their dreams.
The remaining Moyes apologists are starting to look like Japanese soldiers still hiding out in the jungles of the Philippines in 1970. What exactly is the basis of the belief that Moyes will get it right? I have yet to hear one convincing argument.
There is nothing except idealist reasons like we are better than others or SAF is always right and we should support Moyes because he said so. Nothing at all. Even his mythified spell at Everton shouldn't be used as an excuse/proof that he'll eventually become good here (if we spend around 200m and give him a few world class coaches).
Exactly, if he was going to get it right he would have got it right at Everton as well. He failed there everytime he got the chance to elevate them to another level.
Whilst im hardly expecting Moyes to turn all Guardiola on our arses comparing his current style to Allardyce is unfair and quite insulting.
Everton played some good stuff under Moyes - He didnt exactly employ 1990's Wimbeldon tactics which is what everyone seems to think, he exceeded expectations there and he will do so for us. (Especially now he has lowered everyones expectations first lol)
Why is if unfair? Do we play currently better than Allardyce teams? Or Pulis teams?
Everton were okay last season and was one of the most boring and unimaginative teams in ten seasons before it. He played tactics that are more similar to Wimbledon/Stoke than to Man United.
The problem is that it seems some people will absolve Moyes of responsibility until a time comes when we have a 25 man squad chocked full of 25 top, top class players. Unless you're City or Chelsea then that's not even remotely a possibility. Yes Cleverley is a bit crap, yes Valenica and Young struggle consistently at this level if exposed for too long - but they're bloody good players for what they should be - squad players, used sparingly and sensibly to alleviate strain on the others or to step in at a time of injury.
Our supporting cast of players outside who you may assume to be 'first 11' are by most standards - excellent. Maybe not as good as City and Chelsea's but the experience even some of the younger guys have may make up much of the way for that. There'll always be a step down in quality when you compare the automatic starters to the supporting case of players. Yet it seems as if people will give the manager an excuse on the basis that not everyone in the team is yet a 200,000 a week, £40m valued superstar. We need one or two players but there isn't a coach in the world who doesn't think exactly the same. League champions+ one of the best players in the league last year + £29m for a player you should know like the back of your hand + one of the most exciting young players we've seen in a decade, and that's worth something like minus 25 points on this time last season?
Our supporting cast of players outside who you may assume to be 'first 11' are by most standards - excellent. Maybe not as good as City and Chelsea's but the experience even some of the younger guys have may make up much of the way for that. There'll always be a step down in quality when you compare the automatic starters to the supporting case of players. Yet it seems as if people will give the manager an excuse on the basis that not everyone in the team is yet a 200,000 a week, £40m valued superstar. We need one or two players but there isn't a coach in the world who doesn't think exactly the same. League champions+ one of the best players in the league last year + £29m for a player you should know like the back of your hand + one of the most exciting young players we've seen in a decade, and that's worth something like minus 25 points on this time last season?
The key thing for me is not just why people think he will get it right - but why is he significantly more likely to be successful than any of the other managers we have available to us?
I'd hazard a guess that it has something to do with "look what happened when we stuck by Ferguson" - an argument that seems to boil down to insisting Ferguson had no actual talent as manager but just became successful through the default of not being fired.
Well, it still depends on what one understands by "major overhaul". But it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that plenty of factors have changed since back then. Some players look genuinely past it, others have declared their intent to leave, others again have failed to show significant progress - and yet others have been under par for so long that it seems a permanent state.
Then again the question is how much of the above is down to poor management - and how much is down to something else. I don't know. But I do know that banging on about a squad of champions isn't very convincing. Some are world class players who aren't on the decline - and they should be assets to any manager. But that category doesn't contain more than a small handful at the moment. The amount of players that have question marks over their heads is far greater. And what they did under Fergie in seasons past is perfectly irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
I think this discussion belongs in another thread, but you must have a short memory as the football we played under Fergie for the last 3 years or so was dull and unimaginative. We won the league last year largely down to individual moments, in particular RVP. As oppose to consistently performing amazingly as a team.
I'm of the same thinkining. Look at our squad from last season, most people would've agreed we needed a midfielder and possibly a winger. Moyes signed a midfielder and Januzaj came in and has been as good as what we would've hoped any new signing would be like. There were never any concerns with CB going into this season because of Rio's and Vidic's form last season and the fact that we had Jones, Evans and Smalling as well. When we were linked with Garay in the summer most people scoffed at the idea because they thought we didn't need another CB.
Now that Moyes has come in and worked his magic, all of sudden we went from needing 2-3 players in the summer going into this season, to now needing 6-7 players in the coming summer.
Now that Moyes has come in and worked his magic, all of sudden we went from needing 2-3 players in the summer going into this season, to now needing 6-7 players in the coming summer.
I've only skimmed the last few pages but it seems like a load of people moaning about "Moyes apologists", and I see no such people either in this thread or anywhere else.
I think people just like ganging up together, even if there targets are non-existent.
I think people just like ganging up together, even if there targets are non-existent.
Rehashed legends. At one point RVP didn't score for 10 games and we still won all of those games. The year before that we got again 89 points without having RVP. And the year before it we won the league without having RVP too and with Rooney moaning and being for half a season in the worst form of his life. We weren't that good last season but we had many good games and we played very good in attack in most of the games. We made more returns than any other team in the history of the league.
And who is talking about winning the league anyway? Winning the league and this shit we are getting served are completely different things. No-one would have accused Moyes for not winning the league, the majority would have been relatively happy for finishing in the fourth place while some would have been okay even with finishing fifth but having some signs of improvement. We won't winish fifth and actually we have become significantly worse than in the beginning of the season. The form of 2014 is literally relegation form.
...which again would seem to presuppose that those you refer to have no faith in Moyes' managerial capabilities - these being a matter of no consequence, really, because the whole "pro Moyes" thing is just some sort of religion based on nothing but belief, namely the perfectly irrational belief that whoever is left in charge for X years will turn United into a trophy assembling machine.
Maybe that shows how opinions have changed that the apologists are now in the Moyes out camp as well.
They sure as feck have nothing to moan about regardless of how they define their "Moyes apologists". There ain't many around who can be plausibly squeezed into such a bracket as per now. The Caf want Moyes gone, that much has been evident for weeks now.
If he can't help the players get over the confidence issue and he can't manage the team to get decent results despite players missing - and then he can't get it to play good football and get good results with most players fit - then what is he in this job for?
Seriously, you're willing to go a long way in order to keep him in this job. The reality is, he's done a crappy job and there's very little we've seen this season to make us thing he deserves a second season.