You're really determine to eke out a niche for yourself as consistently making the most stupid and annoying posts on redcafe, aren't you? Doing a damn fine job, I might add.
The 'Awful Squad' Brigade
- Thread starter Sarni
- Start date
If you read my post you'll see that it was the year before last when we made a habit of not being able to win after going behind. How on earth did you infer from my post that I don't think this is happening again this season?
Why you just don't put me on ignore instead of telling me how wrong I am and namecalling me like a 3 years old child in all these threads?
And considering that you are the poster whom I respect least in redcafe, believe me that all these posts from you I take as compliments.
Excellent idea. Never put anyone on ignore before. That's quite an achievement by you. Toodle pip.
Fantastic.
This is bollocks, man. And you know it. I respect you as a poster - you have much to offer outside this often rather tedious Moyes-in/Moyes-out debate. But this is bollocks. There isn't a single poster on here who was a David Moyes fan before he got the job - and, again, you know that very well.
But some would have him here whilst see the team drop.
It is basically a contra 'go support City/Chelsea' bollocks that has been thrown to me multiple times.
And I also genuinely belief that a lot of people support Moyes for the only reason to look better than fans of other teams. I am not talking for posters like you who have argumented many times why you support him (something that I don't agree but I respect), but for people who care more about to look better than others rather than the future of the club.
Of course, the comment wasn't completely serious and was a bit provocative.
Look, do you see how that could be construed as...knee-jerk? I don't like to use that term, as it's over-used and often just a form of abuse. But, really - the team drops? After Fergie? What did people expect? Is a drop acceptable to us, highly privileged fans of the most successful team in recent history, for one bleedin' season? Come on. I'm sure you don't mean it like that, but Jesus Christ, this is at face value precisely what so-called t*p reds go mental over. It's the very opposite of being a wee bit patient after decades of immense success.
I understand that. But you're making it all the more easy for those people when you say things like that.
Can we just merge this with another motes out thread?
You're right. Classless for me. As classless as those types of comments I mentioned on my previous post.
My apologies.
Mate I dont need to tell you why there is no knee jerking anymore. This is beyond "transition" or any cliche that can be used to defend Moyes. Look at the people defending him, they would rather see half the team sold than sack him, the same players who have given soo much are nothing because of a irrational support of a manager. No team is entitled to success but sure as hell we as a club should expect far higher from top to bottom.
No need to apologize, man. We're all emotional about the damn thing. As we should be.
It was the way it was phrased. It's precisely that sort of thing which looks spoiled and knee-jerk or what have you. I explicitly said that I was sure you didn't mean it just like that.
Fair enough. I just think at this stage knee jerking isnt really apparent. Considering what has been going on for a while.
That's not true at all. In that season:
- We started the season by coming back from 2 goals down against City to win 3-2 in the Community Shield. And we scored the winner in the last 10 minutes of the game.
- We also came back from 3-0 down against Chelsea (at Stamford Bridge) to draw 3-3! And we scored the equalizer in the last 10 minutes.
- We also scored the equalizer against Liverpool (at Anfield) in the last 10 minutes after going 1-0 down.
- We also scored the winner against Arsenal (at the Emirates) in the last 10 minutes.
- We also scored the winner against Norwich (at Norwich) in the last 10 minutes.
- We also scored the equalizer against Basel in the last 10 minutes.
- We also scored the winner against West Bromwich (at West Bromwich) in the last 10 minutes.
And that was the season where we supposedly "haven't done it often enough"!
EDIT: By the way, I'm only counting comebacks/wins that happened in the last 10 minutes of the game.
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I hear you! It's sad, isn't it... to be like Everton fan!! My point was Fergie has spoiled us throughout the years and some on here complained he left a bunch of half talented players for Moyes.
Someone just reminded me we are actually not mid table being sixth... Well, you see, any position outside top 2, top 4 makes no diffeence to me, midtable anyway.
I don't buy for a second that the squad isn't good enough, some new faces are needed no doubt but there's enough quality about to not struggle as we have. Ultimately for me I think if you swapped Moyes and Mourinho then I think we'd be above Chelsea in the league. Fergie was a brilliant manager but if people think that last season we had a squad that was 6/7th in the table in terms of quality and he took them to the title at ease then that's going overboard. I don't think Fergie could have won the title with Everton last season for example.
Some people defend Moyes by saying that often his team selections are comparable to Fergies but that doesn't work for me. We didn't play that well last season but Fergie managed to get that bit more out of the players and it made the difference. Moyes hasn't been able to do that and his tactics haven't been good enough to compensate. He's got us playing poorly and he's not even instilled a good defensive structure. He's just been an utter disappointment.
Some people defend Moyes by saying that often his team selections are comparable to Fergies but that doesn't work for me. We didn't play that well last season but Fergie managed to get that bit more out of the players and it made the difference. Moyes hasn't been able to do that and his tactics haven't been good enough to compensate. He's got us playing poorly and he's not even instilled a good defensive structure. He's just been an utter disappointment.
No I saw people campaigning for Moyes.
Yeah. It seems like moyes is trying to copy sir Alex with some things, only he's nowhere near sir Alex in anything, and he's copying all of sir Alex's bad traits while adding on a whole plot of his own poor traits. He's trying to copy sir Alex's team selections, when that was one of the few things that people always complained about with him in charge. That's not exactly a good idea when you don't have any of Sir Alex's redeeming qualities.
Awful?
not more than 1 year ago people are claiming we have an exciting squad filled with youth and experience, now half of them needs to be shipped out?
Wake the bloody hell up, there's nothing wrong with our squad, it's the manager that's inept and clueless. Does Pochetino, Laudrup, Rodgers all complain about their squad? We have been harping that Liverpool squad is not good enough, look where they are with a proper tactics and manager who's actually know what he's doing? Gerrard, Terry are all suddenly becomes a first team (and actually contributing).
We can claim our squad is not good enough for total domination and CL win, but to claim that half of our squad does not merit to play for Manchester United is absurd.
Kagawa - Ex Dortmund's top performer (the same dortmund that finished as runner up in CL last year), now he's suddenly shit, not performing, not strong enough, useless, etc
Smailing / Jones / Evans - Praised in the past for the next world class CB, now they're suddenly not good enough to even challenge for 4th, should be sold / replaced / benched
Evra - People claimed he's the best left back in the world (bar Lahm), now he's suddenly past it and needs to be shipped out next year, again.. don't you think at 32 he's good enough to at least play for a team that challenge for 4th?
Vidic / Rio - Ex World class CB, now they can't even worth a back up slot in the team?
Carrick - Many says are world class, now he's past it, in the space of 7 mths, and he's not even good enough, too static, too one dimensional, etc.
Rafael - Best RB in the EPL as touted by majority of the caf only 7 mths ago, now he's inferior to seamus fecking coleman, and we should look to sell him?
Giggs - Goner, should have retired a long time a go, he's 40. No shame in calling it a day
Young / Valencia - Useless, but they offer depth, it was Moyes' decision to make them the vocal point of our attack, they'd more than enough for back up / rotation if played correctly
Mata - Too early to judge, but he looks like he's going to be used as a rich man Young
Rooney / RvP / Welbeck / Hernandez - No team have our depth in striker's department. Take a look at Chelsea, Arsenal, Totenham, they're crying out for a decent striker, imagine where they'll be if they have any of them. And yet here we are we can't even incorporate 2 of them playing together without looking clueless up front. Partnership? They can barely string 10 passes among them.
It's the manager, wake up and smell the reality. How anyone can think otherwise its beyond me
not more than 1 year ago people are claiming we have an exciting squad filled with youth and experience, now half of them needs to be shipped out?
Wake the bloody hell up, there's nothing wrong with our squad, it's the manager that's inept and clueless. Does Pochetino, Laudrup, Rodgers all complain about their squad? We have been harping that Liverpool squad is not good enough, look where they are with a proper tactics and manager who's actually know what he's doing? Gerrard, Terry are all suddenly becomes a first team (and actually contributing).
We can claim our squad is not good enough for total domination and CL win, but to claim that half of our squad does not merit to play for Manchester United is absurd.
Kagawa - Ex Dortmund's top performer (the same dortmund that finished as runner up in CL last year), now he's suddenly shit, not performing, not strong enough, useless, etc
Smailing / Jones / Evans - Praised in the past for the next world class CB, now they're suddenly not good enough to even challenge for 4th, should be sold / replaced / benched
Evra - People claimed he's the best left back in the world (bar Lahm), now he's suddenly past it and needs to be shipped out next year, again.. don't you think at 32 he's good enough to at least play for a team that challenge for 4th?
Vidic / Rio - Ex World class CB, now they can't even worth a back up slot in the team?
Carrick - Many says are world class, now he's past it, in the space of 7 mths, and he's not even good enough, too static, too one dimensional, etc.
Rafael - Best RB in the EPL as touted by majority of the caf only 7 mths ago, now he's inferior to seamus fecking coleman, and we should look to sell him?
Giggs - Goner, should have retired a long time a go, he's 40. No shame in calling it a day
Young / Valencia - Useless, but they offer depth, it was Moyes' decision to make them the vocal point of our attack, they'd more than enough for back up / rotation if played correctly
Mata - Too early to judge, but he looks like he's going to be used as a rich man Young
Rooney / RvP / Welbeck / Hernandez - No team have our depth in striker's department. Take a look at Chelsea, Arsenal, Totenham, they're crying out for a decent striker, imagine where they'll be if they have any of them. And yet here we are we can't even incorporate 2 of them playing together without looking clueless up front. Partnership? They can barely string 10 passes among them.
It's the manager, wake up and smell the reality. How anyone can think otherwise its beyond me
Another arrogance post : Players don't need CL, they need Money
That's very disrespectful, not every player's a money grabbing cnuts, they get paid well wherever they go, and to be fair to them, going to Chelsea and City offers them much bigger chances for trophy compared to coming to us, and isn't glory / winning / trophies is what drives them (apart from money off course)
What do we have to offer atm?
CL Football - Nope
Domestic Title - Not likely
Better wages - Not likely (due to tax, and our propensity not to offer enormous wages)
History / Prestige - Every club that vying for the best players we sought probably have a history / prestige of their own
Playing satisfaction - playing with our rigid 81 crosses tactics? yeah, they'll be jumping ship from their previous exciting team play line up to come to us because let's face it, who doens't love crowd
Don't get me started on weather, lifestyle
That's very disrespectful, not every player's a money grabbing cnuts, they get paid well wherever they go, and to be fair to them, going to Chelsea and City offers them much bigger chances for trophy compared to coming to us, and isn't glory / winning / trophies is what drives them (apart from money off course)
What do we have to offer atm?
CL Football - Nope
Domestic Title - Not likely
Better wages - Not likely (due to tax, and our propensity not to offer enormous wages)
History / Prestige - Every club that vying for the best players we sought probably have a history / prestige of their own
Playing satisfaction - playing with our rigid 81 crosses tactics? yeah, they'll be jumping ship from their previous exciting team play line up to come to us because let's face it, who doens't love crowd
Don't get me started on weather, lifestyle
We don’t have an awful squad, but it does have some flaws. Even under SAF we struggled to control games as our midfield simply wasn’t up to scratch and relied on the ability of our front four to carve out chances and goals by themselves. Our defence wasn’t brilliant either last season, but we were outscoring the opposition when we did concede. These problems have really just been amplified this season.
The squad we have should be more than enough to finish in the top four though, so Moyes has performed poorly with it no doubt. Particularly when you considered we have signed a CM at last and then splashed the cash strengthen our front four further. In the end both the players and Moyes are to blame, but I would rest the majority of the blame with the manager. He has persisted with tactics that haven’t worked and his big money signings haven’t solved any of the problems with the squad itself at this stage.
The squad we have should be more than enough to finish in the top four though, so Moyes has performed poorly with it no doubt. Particularly when you considered we have signed a CM at last and then splashed the cash strengthen our front four further. In the end both the players and Moyes are to blame, but I would rest the majority of the blame with the manager. He has persisted with tactics that haven’t worked and his big money signings haven’t solved any of the problems with the squad itself at this stage.
Yep and the annoying thing is when people say that Fergie stuck with the likes of Valencia. Firstly last season was the first season that Valencia really went downhill so it was natural to hope that he could battle through. Also we've no idea what he was planning to do in the summer nor what his plans were for the likes of Kagawa. Moyes hasn't got any excuse, anyone paying a casual interest in United last season should have known that despite the results that certain players had massively got off form such as Valencia and Moyes as a PL manager whose job entails knowing about the other teams strengths and weaknesses should have known. Then this season he's persisted with him and based his whole attack on someone like Valencia producing.
It definitely is way beyond transistional. We have gone from needing to replace players we all knew needed replacing, to us maybe losing players that didn't need/want to be replacing. He has alienated a lot of players, it will now be up to him to convince the players he is up to the job. We are only guessing about his capabilities in that department.
I was clearly talking about games where we conceded first and ended up winning.
Nothing to do with when we scored our goals. From that long list, only the CC fulfils those two criteria. And it's debatable whether that game even counts.
I think that is true to an extent, yes CL football is good, but if a potential signing thinks this is just a blip and you compensate them well enough, maybe with bonuses for achieving CL football, they may still sign for us.
This was the first post I made, to which you replied..
And this is what I followed up with after you tried to change the subject..
I think it's pretty clear what I was talking about, and only somebody who wants to defend Moyes blindly would change the subject repeatedly like that just to muster some defense for him.
That's the point this season, we go behind and all the fight goes out of the team, their heads drop, but so does the managers. Is the latter transmitting itself to the players and they are thinking he doesn't know what to do? SAF would be ranting from the touchline or he would get Mike Phelan to pass on his instructions and make the necessary changes.
Even the most hardcore manchester United rose tinted fans didn't think it was just a blip.. at least not with moyes under the helm.
If we have hypothetically speaking Klopp, Pep, Mourinho, Ancelotti or Hiddink, many players would be confident enough that we can at least get back to challenging for the title, but with Moyes... I really doubt players would want to risk their career. Even our own players are jumping ship (Rio, Vidic, and probably RvP), not to mention how he treated Kagawa, Zaha, Fabio... youngster will know that he didn't have the luxury to play promising youth for fear of losing his job.
Rightly or wrongly, sacking Moyes will cure alot of our current headache, and we can thank him for softening the blow of replacing SAF. Now instead of replacing the great, we're replacing a clown, and it doesn't take much to perform better successing Moyes... I mean, how worse can we go
If Real Madrid or Bayern missed out on the CL, as an Englishman what would you assume? That it was a blip and they'll be back sooner rather than later. That's what most players around the world think about Man Utd.
Do we really have to rehash the whole frigging discussion?
You complained about us not getting injury time winners.
I reminded you that, two seasons ago, someone else complained about us never winning games after going a goal down. Last season we frequently needed to come from behind to win. This season conceding the first goal has been a recurring problem, yet again.
Do you see a theme developing there?
That is the point I was making. We're going behind too often and this is a trend that's been going on for three years now. Comebacks are great but the best teams around don't need to make many.
I may not have directly addressed your point about injury time winners but I really couldn't care less. That's not how a discussion works. You can respond to a point being made with a related point.
Anyway, how often do injury time winners really happen? It's a far too infrequent occurrence to identify any kind of trend, so it was a fairly meaningless claim to make anyway.
Meanwhile, in the Robbie Savage column:
Make of that what you will.
That's more to the point, if it was Jose or another manager of that stature. yes it could be a blip. Moyes they might have doubts about, I hope that is wrong.
Maybe last season was more about the euphoria of getting RVP, who then went on to get vital winners for us. We are grateful that he came and settled in so well. It could have easily gone the other way. What if City had won the league, would SAF have stayed on another year to go out on a high.
Exactly. You chose to avoid the point I made completely, and replied about some other point I wasn't even talking about.
I was talking about The United we know in the last 10 minutes, but you reply about something else, which is not surprising considering the blind love you have for Moyes.
How often injury time winners happen?? Again. Read my post. It is an indication, but a clear one. I gave our second leg against Real Madrid last season as well, as an example, even though we lost and didn't score late in the game. But we amounted so much pressure (even with 10 men!), something we haven't seen us doing this year. Hey Pogue, quick, turn the blind eye on this because it doesn't make Moyes look good.
It's actually a silly thing the way you're trying to deflect any criticism, by missing the point and replying to a "related" (not!) point.
And by the way, even to your point, we did come back in that year from two goals down to beat city, from 3 goals down to draw with Chelsea, and from 1 goal down to draw with Benfica..., but the matter of fact, we haven't gone behind in games under Fergie as much as we have been under your Moyes! At this stage last season we only had 2 losses, and the season before, only 3, this season 8! So this whole "trend started when Fergie was around" is just utter non-sense really.
Here's an easier scenario
If tomorrow Moyes managing Real / Barcelona, how much of your hard earned money would you dare to make a bet he'll finish 2nd at least in the league
Pogue, you're one of the respected poster in here
You don't need to argue a lot using quotes from Robbie Savage, only a blind fool did not realized that we have no more fighting will, let alone the never say die attitude.
We didn't say die against Madrid last year (although we already lost technically), but this year we give up even against bottom half of the teams.
Moyes comeback (according to Robbie) comes from a game where we shouldn't be behind in the first place, it's like giving him credit for an ace student for getting a pass
Fair do's to you for managing to write out one of the worst responses to a post I've seen for a long time.
The point made was about us going a goal down, not losing the games. Did you even read it?
Bang on the money. Good post.