The Beryllium Isotope and the Fine Tuning of the Universe

spinoza said:
Which it has been, without reference to "intelligent designers", "god" or the "Flying Spaghetti Monster". Read the books / papers / websites.



This is an argument from incredulity. Just because you can't conceive of such a thing doesn't mean such a thing doesn't exist. Read the books / papers / websites.



What evidence?


1. Yes, it has been interpreted without reference to ID but it also has been interpreted with reference to ID. Read the books/papers/websites.

2. What thing? I guess you mean that just because I can not concieve a not-designed/not-created universe it does not mean it has been designed/created? I could say the same just the other way around: just because you can not concieve a universe being designed/created it does not mean it hasnt been designed/created. Read the books/papers/websites.

3. Evidence: the physical things/objects which one can see and which have been seen and observed: plantes, stars, molecules, water, etc.
 
Mihajlovic said:
1. Yes, it has been interpreted without reference to ID but it also has been interpreted with reference to ID. Read the books/papers/websites.

:lol:

I have - the books are shite, there are no papers, and the websites are useless.
Mihajlovic said:
2. What thing? I guess you mean that just because I can not concieve a not-designed/not-created universe it does not mean it has been designed/created? I could say the same just the other way around: just because you can not concieve a universe being designed/created it does not mean it hasnt been designed/created. Read the books/papers/websites.

I can conceive of it, and have decided it's rubbish. Because I have read all those things you are citing and the things that you haven't read.
Mihajlovic said:
3. Evidence: the physical things/objects which one can see and which have been seen and observed: plantes, stars, molecules, water, etc.

How, in any way, shape or form, is this evidence for the existence of god?

Puddles.
 
spinoza said:
:lol:

I have - the books are shite, there are no papers, and the websites are useless.


I can conceive of it, and have decided it's rubbish. Because I have read all those things you are citing and the things that you haven't read.


How, in any way, shape or form, is this evidence for the existence of god?

Puddles.


1. That`s your opinion. I think their books and papers are good and the webistes are useful.

2. I have decided that it`s all very well explained and it makes sense to me. You can :lol: as much as you want!

3. I never said this is evidence of the existence of God. I said the evidence (and I explained what I mean by evidence) points to the existence of God.

P.S. Whats that `puddles` thing actually?
 
Mihajlovic said:
1. That`s your opinion. I think their books and papers are good and the webistes are useful.

There are no papers. Which non-existent ones have you read?
Mihajlovic said:
2. I have decided that it`s a very well explained and it makes sense to me. You can :lol: as much as you want!

So why are you still using that tired old argument from incredulity?

Mihajlovic said:
3. I never said this is evidence of the existence of God. I said the evidence (and I explained what I mean by evidence) points to the existence of God.

P.S. Whats that `puddles` thing actually?

How, in any way shape or form, does it point to the existence of God?

Puddles - Douglas Adams's short form for the fallacy that goes "this place is perfect for humans to exist, therefore someone must have made it that way".
 
spinoza said:
Look, Mihaljovic, go and read the books. If you have, read them again. Because you haven't understood them.

Spin, there’s no need for this patronizing shit. Seriously, go get some ID books and read them with an open mind because it is obvious that you either didn’t read any or you didn’t understand them. C`mon you can do it! Make an effort! :D
 
spinoza said:
There are no papers. Which non-existent ones have you read?


So why are you still using that tired old argument from incredulity?



How, in any way shape or form, does it point to the existence of God?

Puddles - Douglas Adams's short form for the fallacy that goes "this place is perfect for humans to exist, therefore someone must have made it that way".


1. Another arrogant claim. Are you absolutely sure there are no papers?

2. You really love that "incredulity" word. Sadly you didnt even get my point. You as well are using the argument from incredulity. Why?

3. In my opinion it points to the existence of God. ID explains it nicely. Read ID books/papers/websites.


Thanks for the puddles explanation.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Spin, there’s no need for this patronizing shit. Seriously, go get some ID books and read them with an open mind because it is obvious that you either didn’t read any or you didn’t understand them. C`mon you can do it! Make an effort! :D

I have. You probably haven't - like when you quoted Chance and Necessity without actually having read it.
 
Mihajlovic said:
1. Another arrogant claim. Are you absolutely sure there are no papers?

I just looked it up. There's one, published in Nature in Sept 2004. That's it. One paper on ID in a peer-reviewed journal, in all this time.

All these big claims from the IDers, and that's all they've got.

Pathetic.
 
Mihajlovic said:
1. Another arrogant claim. Are you absolutely sure there are no papers?

Yes - I've read everything (about 5 of them) that they claim to be papers, and a couple of them are letters to the editor. None of them are peer reviewed.

Mihajlovic said:
2. You really love that "incredulity" word. Sadly you didnt even get my point. You as well are using the argument from incredulity. Why?

No - you said yourself that you can't conceive of a world where chance explains everything. I can. I can also conceive of a world that is designed. I have read a large amount of literature on evolution, a smaller, but nevertheless thorough amount on intelligent design, and have concluded that ID is bullshit. Have you done the same?
Mihajlovic said:
3. In my opinion it points to the existence of God. ID explains it nicely. Read ID books/papers/websites.

I have, and they hand wave. So do you.

Why not explain it again?
 
spinoza said:
I have. You probably haven't - like when you quoted Chance and Necessity without actually having read it.

Oh, I never said I read Monods book, I just used that quote, nevertheless the principle stays the same, I dont believe in Darwinism and in the magic of chance of necessity. As far as I know his book concernes rather biological systems and has nothing to do with the fine-tuning of universe which is what I was mostly talking about in my recent posts.
 
nickm said:
I just looked it up. There's one, published in Nature in Sept 2004. That's it. One paper on ID in a peer-reviewed journal, in all this time.

All these big claims from the IDers, and that's all they've got.

Pathetic.


No shit! Must be because all atheism-promoting journals really cant wait to publish ID stuff! Columbo!
 
Mihajlovic said:
1. Yes, it has been interpreted without reference to ID but it also has been interpreted with reference to ID. Read the books/papers/websites.

Paper. Not papers. Books and websites - not peer-reviewed, therefore it's pseudo-science.

Mihajlovic said:
just because you can not concieve a universe being designed/created it does not mean it hasnt been designed/created. Read the books/papers/websites.

Nonsense. Of course I can conceive it. I can also conceive of any number of alternative supernatural explanations that fit the evidence:

1. The universe is a simulation in a Matrix-style computer, and we are merely artifacts of a computer program.
2. The universe was accidentally created by alien schoolkids in a highschool science experiment.
3. The universe was created by Zeus and the only reason you think it was the Christian God is because the catholic church exterminated paganism.
4. The universe was created by Satan.

So go on then. Why is the creator your explanation? There is just as much evidence for any of the above explanations as for your own.

Mihajlovic said:
3. Evidence: the physical things/objects which one can see and which have been seen and observed: plantes, stars, molecules, water, etc.

None of that is evidence of God. It is evidence ONLY of a physical reality that demands explanation.

All you're doing is indulging in a cicrular argument: God created the universe, and the existence of the universe proves it. It's nonsense.
 
I'll say it for again, religion has never been factual in a physical sense. Religion is something we wish to believe in because we believe that it is true. I certainly don't say I'm a Catholic because I think that is what my parents want or because I feel a need to cover all my bases, I geniuinely believe in a God and I believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God. I have found God in my life and feel him when I need strength, I feel him as I enter my church, I feel him late at night when I pray. If there was proof of religion, if there was proof of a superior God, then everyone would believe without truly discovering God. That is not what Christianity teaches, instead we must find God within us.
 
nickm said:
I just looked it up. There's one, published in Nature in Sept 2004. That's it. One paper on ID in a peer-reviewed journal, in all this time.

All these big claims from the IDers, and that's all they've got.

Pathetic.

I don't think it was published in Nature - it was reported in Nature.

It was actually snuck into the proceedings of a conference, which isn't really peer-reviewed like journals are.

This is it - Scott Minnich and Stephen C. Meyer, “Genetic Analysis of Coordinate Flagellar and Type III Regulatory Circuits,” Proceedings of the Second International Conference on Design & Nature, Rhodes Greece, edited by M.W. ******s and C.A. Brebbia (WIT Press, 2004).
 
Mihajlovic said:
Oh, I never said I read Monods book, I just used that quote, nevertheless the principle stays the same, I dont believe in Darwinism and in the magic of chance of necessity. As far as I know his book concernes rather biological systems and has nothing to do with the fine-tuning of universe which is what I was mostly talking about in my recent posts.

Why quote it then? You don't believe him, but you've never read his book, so how do you know what not to believe?
 
Mihajlovic said:
No shit! Must be because all atheism-promoting journals really cant wait to publish ID stuff! Columbo!

I knew it. Deep down, here it is: you're just another conspiracy theorist. Don't like the facts? Cry 'cover up'.

Those self-same 'atheism-promoting journals' also promote 'atheist' theories of aerodynamics that keep your plane in the air on holiday (no angels at the ends of wings!), 'atheist' theories of disease that keep you fit and healthy (no demons in your brain!), 'atheist' theories of electricity that keep you warm and comfortable (no Thor in the clouds!).

Insert religion into science and you'll drag us all back to the Middle Ages. Pathetic.
 
Mihajlovic said:
you obviously live in a dreamworld

And you have no idea about how science works /whatsoever/.

'God' can NEVER be part of a scientific explanation, NOT because science is biased against God, but because the defining characteristic of a scientific theory is it MUST be disprovable.

And how can you disprove God? You can't. So you have to leave Him out of the explanation. He may be there, he may not be, but you have to DISREGARD him as a possible explanation, or it isn't science.

That is the main reason ID is not, and can never be, scientific.
 
Kiwi_fan said:
I'll say it for again, religion has never been factual in a physical sense. Religion is something we wish to believe in because we believe that it is true. I certainly don't say I'm a Catholic because I think that is what my parents want or because I feel a need to cover all my bases, I geniuinely believe in a God and I believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God. I have found God in my life and feel him when I need strength, I feel him as I enter my church, I feel him late at night when I pray. If there was proof of religion, if there was proof of a superior God, then everyone would believe without truly discovering God. That is not what Christianity teaches, instead we must find God within us.

Good post. When I say a lot of Christians don't understand Christianity properly, this is what I think they should understand. Reality is reality. God is God. Leave them apart.
 
spinoza said:
I don't think it was published in Nature - it was reported in Nature.

It was actually snuck into the proceedings of a conference, which isn't really peer-reviewed like journals are.

This is it - Scott Minnich and Stephen C. Meyer, “Genetic Analysis of Coordinate Flagellar and Type III Regulatory Circuits,” Proceedings of the Second International Conference on Design & Nature, Rhodes Greece, edited by M.W. ******s and C.A. Brebbia (WIT Press, 2004).

Didn't know that. So the actual total really is zero then.
 
nickm said:
Didn't know that. So the actual total really is zero then.

Pretty much. Eventually they'll get something into a 3rd tier or 4th tier journal though, so it won't stay zero for long. In fact, that they've not managed it so far says a lot for how bad they are at science.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Oh, I never said I read Monods book, I just used that quote

So you were quote-mining while leaving out the surrounding context, and without understanding his central argument, while using his name to add weight to your theory.

Why not just save yourself time and simply make stuff up instead?
 
Mihajlovic said:
1. Evidence can not be ignored for the simple reason that not one sane person can deny their existence. This of course depends on what you mean by evidence. Fossils are the evidence that there was once a living organism which died. But evidence does not speak for itself. It needs to be interpreted.

Fossils are far more than that.

And many religious types, particularly ID/creationist types ignore whole libraries full of evidence. If they didn't they wouldn't be creationists/ID believers because anyone with 5 firing neurons who examines the evidence can't fail but to see the undeniability of evolution through natural and sexual selection.


2. This is where it comes to your second point “…misinterpreting the evidence”. Your statement implies that there already is a given unchangeable and unquestionable interpretation of evidence and no other interpretation is whether allowed nor possible.

Not in the least. There are often a number of possible (usually similar) possibilities suggested by observation. These possibilities are then examined. depending upon the weight of evidence we may come to one or more conclusions. However, we do not do this and then say "Wow that is big/complex/beyond my limited intellect" and lurch for something totally unsupported like a belief in God/religion/creationism/ID/a universe ruled by a pink bunny called Roger.

But the problem with interpretations is that they are all created by people/scientists who are to a certain extent subjective and biased.

Which is why the process of scientific enquiry and peer review is conducted in the way it is. You can't just make stuff up and expect it to get published in a serious peer reviewed journal. if it isn't published in such a way it doesn't exist for all intents and purposes.

such an important part of I don’t believe there is one single person in the world which is clinically neutral for that seems to be virtually impossible if they were all born and raised on this planet.

Totally unnecessary to the process. Serious science has checks and balances in place to prevent invention being accepted as fact/best current theory.

So what then is the guideline when evidence needs to be interpreted? I don’t believe it can be the majority of opinions (for example most scientists believe there is no supernatural creation etc.)

To publish you need to subject your work to independent per review. This is a very stringent process. i used to be a reviewer for a mid level ecological journal and I rejected quite a few articles not because i thought the author was wrong but because either i didn't think they had sufficient evidence to draw the conclusions they did or that they didn't present their work in a way that enabled me to tell. Further work sometimes meant they got published later and sometimes they had to start from scratch.

if conflicting views come in different journals from different studies, as happens from time to time, the most rigorous discussions take place, often on the letters section of journals until one view prevails or (more often) a new study confirms one or other of the conflicting theories.

A choice between the two isn't take by a show of hands.


Many times in history the opinions of the majority turned out to be wrong in the end. The arrogance that I see in your explanation is that you seem to deny any other possibility oh how people interpret past events.

In general I think almost everything we currently "know" will be slightly wrong even if it is in small detail. However, anyone who interprets the fossil record as some evidence of god or thinks it shows that evolutionists are wrong is such an utter spastic that I wouldn't let them carry scissors, much less listen to their opinion.

Believe in a god by all means but as soon as that belief is used to attack and pervert science (such as the ludicrous and oxymoronic intelligent design movement do) then I will object.


Some opininIt seems hard for you to understand that what makes sense to you does not necessarily make and has to make sense to others- since we are still talking about interpretation. Dawkins would say it is not probable that God exists and of course it might not be probable from his but it might be probable from my point of view.

Then you would be utterly wrong. All opinions are not equally valid. Many are downright rubbish. Or at least are based on rubbish arguments. To be probably correct you need evidence to assess that probability and the lack of it makes your stance infinitely less probable. If you believe because you have blind faith then this is a reason to believe even if it isn't probable in any logical sense of the word.

In other words if you believe do so. If you are uncertain enough in your faith as to need proof then you are probably really an aethiest or agnostic screaming to get out


If there are things which are designed (or as Dawkins would say “which give the appearance of design”) and if the universe is fine-tuned (or at least to me it very much looks like it),

The evaporating puddle couldn't believe how well the hole in which it lived was designed for him. The ridges and cracks were so well fine tuned to his shape that any conclusion other than it was specifically made for him by God was ludicrous.

Simply because he didn't have any better explanation.

We do.


then why is it unreasonable to conclude it is too improbable that it just happen by chance, through a blind an unguided process and for no reason at all? There is no way of knowing, the only question is will our observation lead us to the same conclusion or not?

Because you are basing this on a simple statement of incredulity. People who have bothered to learn how it all works aren't at all credulous. It is a simple, elegant and in many ways obvious solution to the evidence of every living thing we see. All evidence points to ET being correct in all but minor detail with very few gaps left to fill. We know more about the nature of evolution than we do about the nature of gravity but you believe in gravity because stuff falls when you let go of it. Because evolution mainly happens on a scale you can't directly observe you put it in the "too difficult" basket.
And in my view, no matter how much I think about it, it seems absolutely impossible that there could be no design, no purpose, and no plan behind the existence of everything (space, time and matter).

The puddle would agree.

Right up to the point he disappears through evaporation.


3. The objection atheists often make is “if there is a God then who created God”.

I have never heard anyone over about the age of 10 bother with this argument. Having said that I have never heard a satisfactory answer.

Out of the mouth of babes and all that.


Let’s say I believe in a supernatural being called “God’- what difference does it make if I know or don’t know who or what created him?

Apparently none to you. To me I need a rational basis for life. But that is just me.

Things are not going to stop to exist because they don’t depend on the origin of God.

Did anyone suggest it would?

The Mercedes that I find one day in a garage is still going to be a Mercedes, with all his parts and mechanical complexities even if I never find out who created it. The car won’t stop existing if I can not answer who his possible designer was.

Again, who suggested such sillyness?

But based on that simple evidence (existing car) I will come to my personal, rational conclusion that this car definitely has a maker!

My rational conclusion would be that you had "rationalised" your predetermined solution, despite all the evidence to the contrary, on the usual simple basis of incredulity.

So the question “who then created God” is just another escape route you use because you know that it is quite impossible to answer.

If God exists why is this impossible to answer?

I think it is impossible to answer for the same reason we don't know who created Roger the large all powerful bunny ruler. My 8 year old thinks it is a good question because even he knows that it is ironic that people who don't believe in The Big Bang because "creation can't come out of nothing" then come up with an answer that depends on an answer before which there was nothing.


In my opinion that Higher Being by definition must be something out of space, space and matter, it must be undependable and have characteristics of infinite power.

Why?

Our of space/time? So you can't see him?
Undependable? Huh?
Characteristics of ultimate power? or ultimate power? Or ?????

In any case if there is even a semblance of infinite power how come nothing tangible has ever been achieved by the power of prayer? Some miracle. People pray for all sorts of things but the only ones that "come true" are unprovable. Nobody ever grew a limb back no matter how much they prayed and my guess is that some pretty devout amputees prayed pretty damn hard for such an outcome.


This might sound philosophical but that answer makes sense to me personally. I don’t see why I need to know who created God in order to conclude that there is enough evidence which points to his existence.

You don't need to know who created God to believe in him. However, if you did, in a meaningful way, then it might actually help your arguments. As would even a single shred of evidence for a supernatural influence approximating a God.
 
Mihajlovic said:
1. Evidence can not be ignored for the simple reason that not one sane person can deny their existence. This of course depends on what you mean by evidence. Fossils are the evidence that there was once a living organism which died. But evidence does not speak for itself. It needs to be interpreted.

Indeed. And you cherry-pick the evidence looking for stuff that supports your religious belief. While science looks at the evidence for stuff that proves or disproves an existing hypothesis/theory.

That's the bleedin' difference.

Mihajlovic said:
3. The objection atheists often make is “if there is a God then who created God”. Let’s say I believe in a supernatural being called “God’- what difference does it make if I know or don’t know who or what created him?

The difference is you are invoking God as the /explanation/ for what you observe. If you are in the business of /explanation/, then God needs one too.

Mihajlovic said:
The Mercedes that I find one day in a garage is still going to be a Mercedes, with all his parts and mechanical complexities even if I never find out who created it. The car won’t stop existing if I can not answer who his possible designer was. But based on that simple evidence (existing car) I will come to my personal, rational conclusion that this car definitely has a maker!

Yes, but either you are in the business of explanation or you aren't. What kind of feeble curiosity wants to explain the car, but is uninterested in explaning the person who made it?

Mihajlovic said:
So the question “who then created God” is just another escape route you use because you know that it is quite impossible to answer. In my opinion that Higher Being by definition must be something out of space, space and matter, it must be undependable and have characteristics of infinite power. This might sound philosophical but that answer makes sense to me personally. I don’t see why I need to know who created God in order to conclude that there is enough evidence which points to his existence.

Because you aren't really interested in explanations, you are really only interested in believing in God. The point at which your belief is confirmed is the point you stop looking for explanations. Which is feeble, if you are a proper philosopher.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Spin, there’s no need for this patronizing shit. Seriously, go get some ID books and read them with an open mind because it is obvious that you either didn’t read any or you didn’t understand them. C`mon you can do it! Make an effort! :D

ID is about as far from science as you can get. I have read loads of this utter cobblers and it is universally rubbish. A few scientific "facts" or words cherry picked to shoehorn into a "theory" that leads to a predetermined conclusion and used in totally and utterly inappropriate ways and usually with deliberate dishonesty.

And there is me thinking that dishonesty was unchristian.

ID will never get into a serious scientific peer reviewed journal for the simple reason that it would fail all objective tests that science is subjected to. It would gain an F in a first year Uni essay so aiming higher is laughably futile.
 
spinoza said:
I don't think it was published in Nature - it was reported in Nature.

It was actually snuck into the proceedings of a conference, which isn't really peer-reviewed like journals are.

This is it - Scott Minnich and Stephen C. Meyer, “Genetic Analysis of Coordinate Flagellar and Type III Regulatory Circuits,” Proceedings of the Second International Conference on Design & Nature, Rhodes Greece, edited by M.W. ******s and C.A. Brebbia (WIT Press, 2004).

Spot on.

This was a conference organised by something called The Centre For Scince And Culture who are part of the Discovery Institute, both well known reactionary creationist organisations who can't get published anywhere other than by themselves and by other unscientific loons.

Even the title of the conference admits the creationist origins of this rubbish. I mean "Second International Conference on Design & Nature" FFS.

Even proper scientific conference papers aren't really peer reviewed in a meaningful way. Thye are usually for newtworking and for younger academnic to try their ideas out prior to publication in something serious. However, in this case there isn't even that intent.

Their arguments are simple a simple rehash of the old bullshit argument about current function meaning evolution couldn't be responsible.
 
Kiwi_fan said:
I'll say it for again, religion has never been factual in a physical sense. Religion is something we wish to believe in because we believe that it is true.

Which is the most rational way of justifying a belief in God.

I certainly don't say I'm a Catholic because I think that is what my parents want or because I feel a need to cover all my bases, I geniuinely believe in a God and I believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God. I have found God in my life and feel him when I need strength, I feel him as I enter my church, I feel him late at night when I pray. If there was proof of religion, if there was proof of a superior God, then everyone would believe without truly discovering God. That is not what Christianity teaches, instead we must find God within us.

As someone who was brought up a Catholic I can't agree but examining this is beyond what we are discussing here. Which is in effect the argument that science is ignoring evidence of god. I only ever get involved with such discussions when people misrepresent science to try to prove God exists.
 
I know and I agree.

I just didn't think it would help Mihajlovic to understand evolution.

And the truth can be amusing.
 
Large parts of evolution are highly amusing. Mating strategies are a prime examples.
 
True. Like hails of frogs, for instance...they're funny.

Everyone should read "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" by the philosopher Daniel Dennet. Good read, looks at the ideas around natural selection in quite an original and fertile way. The real beauty of the theory for me lies in its gradualism...once you start thinking in terms of slow change rather than absolute essences, all sorts of age-old philosophical problems start dissolving. Consciousness, the self, free will, morality...not that these problems have been solved, but you can finally see ta framework within which they can be solved.
 
Exactly.

The sheer elegance of the solution is stunning.

Unlike sneaky fecking in bird (and other) species. Which is both brilliant and amusing at the same time.
 
As an A2 level Biology student and one who's going to do biomedicine next year, i'd say protein synthesis via DNA's transcription and translation is the most ingenious thing i've learnt thus far.

Natural selection, speciation and all that is alright but usually a bitch to answer in the papers; this year we had an allopatric speciation question on male seahorses. feck sake.