The Community Shield is a trophy!

[World Game]

So Arsenal are the best team in England?

I think not, that logic still doesn't make much sense to me. Winning a random knockout cup competition with six rounds against teams in your own country is much easier than winning the Europa. Which is a group stage plus 4 home/away knockout rounds vs teams from all over Europe. The vast majority of people rank european cup competitions above domestic cups.

If you win the FA Cup you qualify to the higher competition which is the Europa League and in previous years the Cup Winners Cup. Which say it all really.

Arsenal played the best in tournament out of all the English teams so they deservedly won the FA Cup. We played the best out of the 17th-64th teams in Europe so we deservedly won Europa.

Playing the best in a competition with Chelsea, Spurs, City. Pool, Arsenal, Everton, Southampton is much harder than playing the best in a competition with Ajax, Celta, Lyon, Schalke, Besiktas, Anderlecht, Genk.

Newcastle recently won a trophy - the championship. This trophy goes to the 21st best team in England. I don't know about you but I would rank a midtables team achievements over the last two seasons but with no trophies higher than Newcastle who got relegated but ended up with a trophy. The way I see it finishing 15th and 15th with no trophy is better than finishing 18th and 21st but getting a trophy for coming 21st. Having to play more games in the Championship than the EPL doesn't change this. This is how I rate the Europa trophy too. I see the Europa trophy the way it is, and that it's the trophy that goes to the 17th best team in Europe which to be honest is an achievement I don't rate as high as winning the FA Cup.

 

[Wumminator]

RAWK IS H?

I don't get it. What's H?

 

[GailSpaceWynand]

RAWK IS H?

I don't get it. What's H?

RAWKISH.

 

[stevoc]

Arsenal played the best in tournament out of all the English teams so they deservedly won the FA Cup. We played the best out of the 17th-64th teams in Europe so we deservedly won Europa.

So Arsenal are the best team in England then if they are no1 according to your logic. But then United won the league cup which has all the teams in england in it too, so they must also be the joint best team in England.

And Chelsea? They must not be the best team in England then as they only came first out of 20 english teams where as United and Arsenal came first out of 92 teams.

Playing the best in a competition with Chelsea, Spurs, City. Pool, Arsenal, Everton, Southampton is much harder than playing the best in a competition with Ajax, Celta, Lyon, Schalke, Besiktas, Anderlecht, Genk.

Newcastle recently won a trophy - the championship. This trophy goes to the 21st best team in England. I don't know about you but I would rank a midtables team achievements over the last two seasons but with no trophies higher than Newcastle who got relegated but ended up with a trophy. The way I see it finishing 15th and 15th with no trophy is better than finishing 18th and 21st but getting a trophy for coming 21st. Having to play more games in the Championship than the EPL doesn't change this. This is how I rate the Europa trophy too. I see the Europa trophy the way it is, and that it's the trophy that goes to the 17th best team in Europe which to be honest is an achievement I don't rate as high as winning the FA Cup.

What the feck does that even mean?

What a load of nonsense.

 

[Ryan Bobson]

It wasn't that long ago that if the game finished a draw it was shared between both clubs , it does seem to be scrapping the barrel a bit calling it a Treble unless you think 99 and 2017 are comparable

 

[VeevaVee]

It's probably because it was always marketed as a 'charity' pre season friendly. They need to do some more rebranding and somehow change the mindset for it to be taken seriously.

 

[roonster09]

It's probably because it was always marketed as a 'charity' pre season friendly. They need to do some more rebranding and somehow change the mindset for it to be taken seriously.

It won't be taken seriously as it's not competitive game. It's a curtain raiser friendly game. Teams can use 6 subs and the suspensions won't be carried to the next game, it's as friendly as it can get.

Only bright spot is the team should do well to play in CS.

 

[U99ted]

So Arsenal are the best team in England then if they are no1 according to your logic. But then United won the league cup which has all the teams in england in it too, so they must also be the joint best team in England.

Actually, by his logic we are definitely the best team in England. The EFL Cup hasn't got non-league teams, whereas Arsenal played multiple non-league sides in the FA Cup.

 

[stevoc]

Actually, by his logic we are definitely the best team in England. The EFL Cup hasn't got non-league teams, whereas Arsenal played multiple non-league sides in the FA Cup.

True yay we're the best team in the country.

 

[Ian Reus]

lol

 

[rcoobc]

Right, want to get this off my chest after seeing people in other threads trying to demean last season's treble. Any team that competes in the Community Shield must be winners because you have to win the League or the FA cup to make it, it's like a domestic Super Cup, end of chat.

You can also qualify by coming second in the league, sometimes

 

[World Game]

So Arsenal are the best team in England then if they are no1 according to your logic. But then United won the league cup which has all the teams in england in it too, so they must also be the joint best team in England.

Maybe I wasn't as clear the first time so I apologise so I will try to say what I said but with more words. Tell me which of these facts you don't agree with?

1. In any competition, naturally whichever team plays the best among those competing in it will win.
2. The EPL has the very best teams of England competing in it so in theory the best team in England should win it.
3. Similary, in theory the best team in England should win the FA Cup.
4. However the best team in Europe shouldn't be the one to win the Europa League. Actually the 16 best teams in Europe shouldn't be in the competition at all.
5. So in theory, the 17th best team in Europe should be the one to win the Europa League.
6. Being 1st in England is a much better achievement than being 17th in Europe. Therefore FA Cup > Europa League.
7. Ok, yes, this is football and there are many factors so the best team doesn't always win. And some competitions are clearly prioritised over others so a club doesn't always play their best teams in the lesser competitions. For example teams will prioritise the EPL over the FA Cup, and this makes winning the EPL much harder and a bigger achievement than the FA Cup.
8. So what makes winning one competition more valuable than another? It's the level of the opposition you face. Though you may face the same teams in the EPL and FA Cup, the top English teams spend more of their effort and resources into competing in the EPL rather than the FA Cup. This means overall the difficulty of the opposition in the FA Cup is lower.
9. This doesn't change the fact that the FA Cup winner can say we duked it out with the best in England and came 1st.
10. On the other hand all the Europa Legaue winner can say is we duked it out with the 17th-56th best teams in Europe and came 1st.
11. Some of the best teams in England are much harder opposition than the 17th best team in Europe.
12. Even accounting for point #8, one can conclude that #9 is a better achievement than #10 and thus winning the FA Cup is a better achievement than winning the Europa League.
13. Of course nowadays the Europa League gives us qualification into the CL, but here I am only referring to the actual trophy itself.


You quoted me saying "Arsenal played the best in tournament out of all the English teams so they deservedly won the FA Cup." How does this statement equal "Arsenal is the best team in England"?
It's like reading "Nadal played the best in the French open out of all the tennis players and deservedly won the French Open" and coming to the conclusion that you read "Nadal is the best tennis player."

I said they were the best team in the FA Cup or rather they played the best in the FA Cup. My first post clearly rated the EPL much higher than the FA Cup. Chelsea's achievement is a bigger achievement than Arsenal's. However this is irrelevant because in case you've forgotten the initial disagreement was the value of FA Cup vs Europa League, not Arsenal vs Chelsea.

Actually the question is which is a better achievement between Arsenal and Us. Winning a FA Cup or winning the Europa League? Winning a competition with Chelsea, Spurs, City. Pool, Arsenal, Everton, Southampton or winning a competition with Ajax, Celta, Lyon, Schalke, Besiktas, Anderlecht, Genk? Winning a competition where you face the very best of England or winning a competition where you face at best the 17th strongest team in Europe? You will remember that Arsenal did have to win against Chelsea (best team in England) in the final to lift the trophy. We defeated Ajax (2nd best team in the Netherlands) to lift the trophy.

And Chelsea? They must not be the best team in England then as they only came first out of 20 English teams where as United and Arsenal came first out of 92 teams.

Moot point because I didn't use this line of logic.

Look back at my initial post.
I rated EPL as the 2nd most valuable trophy. (Chelsea won it.)
I rated FA Cup as the 3rd most valuable trophy. (Arsenal won it.)
Winning the 2nd most valuable trophy > Winning the 3rd most valuable trophy. I think you will agree with this assessment.

Once again I must reiterate the fact that what we have been disagreeing this whole time is how we value the Europa League trophy especially in relation to the FA Cup.
I gave my reasons for why I value the FA Cup as a trophy over the Europa League trophy and why a team that has won the FA cup should be given more praise than one that has won the EL. Your rebuttal has been to use a comparison of the EPL vs FA Cup when the disagreement has been on the FA Cup vs Europa.

What the feck does that even mean?

What a load of nonsense.

So you don't understand something? It must be nonsense then.

 

[Amar__]

Berry berry shrew.

 

[stevoc]

Maybe I wasn't as clear the first time so I apologise so I will try to say what I said but with more words. Tell me which of these facts you don't agree with?

1. In any competition, naturally whichever team plays the best among those competing in it will win.
2. The EPL has the very best teams of England competing in it so in theory the best team in England should win it.
3. Similary, in theory the best team in England should win the FA Cup.
4. However the best team in Europe shouldn't be the one to win the Europa League. Actually the 16 best teams in Europe shouldn't be in the competition at all.
5. So in theory, the 17th best team in Europe should be the one to win the Europa League.
6. Being 1st in England is a much better achievement than being 17th in Europe. Therefore FA Cup > Europa League.
7. Ok, yes, this is football and there are many factors so the best team doesn't always win. And some competitions are clearly prioritised over others so a club doesn't always play their best teams in the lesser competitions. For example teams will prioritise the EPL over the FA Cup, and this makes winning the EPL much harder and a bigger achievement than the FA Cup.
8. So what makes winning one competition more valuable than another? It's the level of the opposition you face. Though you may face the same teams in the EPL and FA Cup, the top English teams spend more of their effort and resources into competing in the EPL rather than the FA Cup. This means overall the difficulty of the opposition in the FA Cup is lower.
9. This doesn't change the fact that the FA Cup winner can say we duked it out with the best in England and came 1st.
10. On the other hand all the Europa Legaue winner can say is we duked it out with the 17th-56th best teams in Europe and came 1st.
11. Some of the best teams in England are much harder opposition than the 17th best team in Europe.
12. Even accounting for point #8, one can conclude that #9 is a better achievement than #10 and thus winning the FA Cup is a better achievement than winning the Europa League.
13. Of course nowadays the Europa League gives us qualification into the CL, but here I am only referring to the actual trophy itself.


You quoted me saying "Arsenal played the best in tournament out of all the English teams so they deservedly won the FA Cup." How does this statement equal "Arsenal is the best team in England"?
It's like reading "Nadal played the best in the French open out of all the tennis players and deservedly won the French Open" and coming to the conclusion that you read "Nadal is the best tennis player."

I said they were the best team in the FA Cup or rather they played the best in the FA Cup. My first post clearly rated the EPL much higher than the FA Cup. Chelsea's achievement is a bigger achievement than Arsenal's. However this is irrelevant because in case you've forgotten the initial disagreement was the value of FA Cup vs Europa League, not Arsenal vs Chelsea.

Actually the question is which is a better achievement between Arsenal and Us. Winning a FA Cup or winning the Europa League? Winning a competition with Chelsea, Spurs, City. Pool, Arsenal, Everton, Southampton or winning a competition with Ajax, Celta, Lyon, Schalke, Besiktas, Anderlecht, Genk? Winning a competition where you face the very best of England or winning a competition where you face at best the 17th strongest team in Europe? You will remember that Arsenal did have to win against Chelsea (best team in England) in the final to lift the trophy. We defeated Ajax (2nd best team in the Netherlands) to lift the trophy.


Moot point because I didn't use this line of logic.

Look back at my initial post.
I rated EPL as the 2nd most valuable trophy. (Chelsea won it.)
I rated FA Cup as the 3rd most valuable trophy. (Arsenal won it.)
Winning the 2nd most valuable trophy > Winning the 3rd most valuable trophy. I think you will agree with this assessment.

Once again I must reiterate the fact that what we have been disagreeing this whole time is how we value the Europa League trophy especially in relation to the FA Cup.
I gave my reasons for why I value the FA Cup as a trophy over the Europa League trophy and why a team that has won the FA cup should be given more praise than one that has won the EL. Your rebuttal has been to use a comparison of the EPL vs FA Cup when the disagreement has been on the FA Cup vs Europa.

I'm not going to read all that mate sorry. But long story short the Europa League is a bigger tournament than the FA Cup. It's basically the continental version of the FA Cup.

Continental cup > National cup

Champions League>Premier League>Europa League>FA Cup/League Cup

So you don't understand something? It must be nonsense then.

To be fair it didn't make much sense mate. So yes if something doesn't make any sense by definition it is therefore nonsense.

 

[World Game]

I'm not going to read all that mate sorry. But long story short the Europa League is a bigger tournament than the FA Cup. It's basically the continental version of the FA Cup.

Continental cup > National cup

Champions League>Premier League>Europa League>FA Cup/League Cup




To be fair it didn't make much sense mate. So yes if something doesn't make any sense by definition it is therefore nonsense.

Hi, I've sent you a PM so we can continue the debate there in order to comply with forum rules.

 

[Ravelation]

Arsenal played the best in tournament out of all the English teams so they deservedly won the FA Cup. We played the best out of the 17th-64th teams in Europe so we deservedly won Europa.

Playing the best in a competition with Chelsea, Spurs, City. Pool, Arsenal, Everton, Southampton is much harder than playing the best in a competition with Ajax, Celta, Lyon, Schalke, Besiktas, Anderlecht, Genk.

Newcastle recently won a trophy - the championship. This trophy goes to the 21st best team in England. I don't know about you but I would rank a midtables team achievements over the last two seasons but with no trophies higher than Newcastle who got relegated but ended up with a trophy. The way I see it finishing 15th and 15th with no trophy is better than finishing 18th and 21st but getting a trophy for coming 21st. Having to play more games in the Championship than the EPL doesn't change this. This is how I rate the Europa trophy too. I see the Europa trophy the way it is, and that it's the trophy that goes to the 17th best team in Europe which to be honest is an achievement I don't rate as high as winning the FA Cup.

The problem with your argument is that the leagues are not played over two seasons, just one. Newcastle are not the 21'st best team in england, how can you say that finishing 18th in the EPL is better than finishing 1'st in the Championship? That is absurd. And if you cannot say that it is better than finishing Chmpionship winners, then the whole of your argument is incorrect, as it doesnt follow it's own ruled.
If Newcastle were to win the FA cup, and win there league, how would you rank them? Still as the 21st best team in England.

Aditionally, you cannot rank everyone in the Europa league below the Champions League entrants because the methods of qualification are not equal. Arsenal are one of the strongest clubs/teams in world football, that failed to qualify because in England we had 4 other teams of equal/more quality.

 

[Sad Chris]

It's probably because it was always marketed as a 'charity' pre season friendly. They need to do some more rebranding and somehow change the mindset for it to be taken seriously.

How about...

The-We-Don't-Give-Shit-About-Poor-Kids-Working-In-Sweatshops-Or-Homeless-Cats-Without-YouTube-Jobs-Either-And-Just-Cause-The-Winning-Side-Doesn't-Celebrate-Like-They-Just-Won-The-World-Cup-Or-Drew-Against-West-Brom-Doesn't-Mean-They-Didn't-Take-It-Serious-Cause-They-Did-Even-If-You-Don't-Believe-Me-Trophy

...?

 

[Shuriken]

It is a competition with only 2 teams, you get 6 subs and it goes to penalties after 90 minutes.

The deal breaker. It's not setup as an official competitive match, so why should it be counted as such…

 

[ayushreddevil9]

How about...

The-We-Don't-Give-Shit-About-Poor-Kids-Working-In-Sweatshops-Or-Homeless-Cats-Without-YouTube-Jobs-Either-And-Just-Cause-The-Winning-Side-Doesn't-Celebrate-Like-They-Just-Won-The-World-Cup-Or-Drew-Against-West-Brom-Doesn't-Mean-They-Didn't-Take-It-Serious-Cause-They-Did-Even-If-You-Don't-Believe-Me-Trophy

...?

I liked the 'Drew against West brom' part

 

[fellaini's barber]

Of course it's a trophy, till Wenger wins it next season and says the same thing and we start laughing at him

 

[marlowe78]

I liked with Jose called it 1/2 a trophy during the season. It's a friendly but it's a game that you earn your place into and, under the right circumstances, it can be a match-up between 2 major PL sides that sets the tone for the league.

Is it significant in any way? Not in the grand scheme of things, no.

Am I still glad when we win it? Yes, of course. I always love when we win at Wembley.

 

[lsd]

You're asking the caf to admit Moyes won a trophy. You're asking too much.

End of debate .

 

[Needham]

Changed my mind about this.

 

[charlenefan]

Of course it's a trophy, it might not be an important one but that's not the question is it

 

[MrMarcello]

If they want to make this glorified exhibition an actual important trophy the only way I see such is to hold it immediately after the FA Cup Final and Premier League end season, so sometime in late May.

 

[izec]

Mickey mouse trophy, or glorified pre season friendly with a small cup as a sweetener to put in a bit of effort in August

 

[dichinero]

The funds raised for charity is the only thing that makes it even worthy to be talked about, other than that it is a friendly.
It's embarrassing to count it as part of a trophy tally

 

[Mister_Stubbs]

It's an oversized dinner plate typically used by Americans. It's nothing to celebrate winning.

 

[robinzx]

Rio said it best when he mentioned the League Cup in his Players Tribune piece. The same (even more so) applies to the Community Shield.

"When you win the League Cup, the whole stadium will go mental. You’ll get back to the dressing room and with the mood in there, you’d think you just drew a game in the Premier League. The fecking loneliest person in the room will be the trophy. Just sitting in the corner. No one taking pictures of it or nothing. You’re all just quiet and going on like it was a normal game. No emotion."