The conservative left

[Eendracht maakt macht]

This week a member of the Muslimbrotherhood was voted in Dutch parliament for the Dutch Green Party. As someone who grew up left wing partly because the left opposed to religion this absolutely baffles me. Why does the left turn a blind eye to the radical Islam when they rightfully opposed Christianity for decades?

 

[2cents]

This week a member of the Muslimbrotherhood was voted in Dutch parliament for the Dutch Green Party. As someone who grew up left wing partly because the left opposed to religion this absolutely baffles me. Why does the left turn a blind eye to the radical Islam when they rightfully opposed Christianity for decades?

Could you give a bit more background on this “member of the Muslim Brotherhood” so that we can get a sense of what that means in the Dutch context?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I don’t believe the left is opposed to or intolerant of religion at all. I’m not.

You’re talking about small minded people.

 

[Tarrou]

oh boy

 

[altodevil]

There's a lot of left leaning people who dislike religion. Not sure what your point is here.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

I don’t believe the left is opposed to or intolerant of religion at all. I’m not.

You’re talking about small minded people.

Not intolerant to religion but at least in the Dutch context they always ‘fought’ against religious conservatism.

 

[Eboue]

i thought the thread title was the beginning of a joke

 

[Maagge]

There's a difference between wanting secularism and opposing religion. Without knowing more of the context it's difficult to see what the issue is here. The left generally wants people to be able to follow whichever religion they want but without religions interfering with government.
You can easily be Christian/Muslim/whatever and left-leaning if you are fine with your religion not being part of policy, so to speak.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Maybe the word 'opposed' was wrong. Forgive me, English isn't my first language. What I mean is for decades the left at least in the Netherlands 'fought' against religious conservatism. And now one of the parties which I actually voted for the last time elects a member of the Muslim Brotherhood who for example gave a lecture last year where men and women were seperated. Do you really think a orthodox Christian would be voted in a so called progressive party? Surely there is a double standard there?

 

[africanspur]

As @2cents said above, do you mind giving a bit more information on this candidate?

I only ask because there's been a bit of a habit in Western politics in the last few years by some of lumping in pretty much any Muslim politician as 'MB' and similar efforts by fascists in the Middle East whenever they're questioned on their authoritarianism by Muslims in the West.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

As @2cents said above, do you mind giving a bit more information on this candidate?

I only ask because there's been a bit of a habit in Western politics in the last few years by some of lumping in pretty much any Muslim politician as 'MB' and similar efforts by fascists in the Middle East whenever they're questioned on their authoritarianism by Muslims in the West.

Yes, she was a known and active member of Femyso. The European youth organisation of the Muslim Brotherhood (as called by the Muslim Brotherhood themselves and several reports by multiple organizations). She gave several lectureres as member of this said organisation (with men and women apart).

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

For certain our Green Party would rightfully rip into our conservative Christian parties if they would set men and women apart. It's this double standard I just can't understand. That's what I meant when I said opposed, not in any way that the left shouldn't give people the right to excercise their religion.

 

[Spoony]

She's called Kauthar Bouchallikh. Apparently she's denied the allegations.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tr...muslim-woman-running-for-parliament-41777/amp

 

[T00lsh3d]

oh boy

Wait, give it time, it might not turn into a massive shitfest...

 

[africanspur]

Yes, she was a known and active member of Femyso. The European youth organisation of the Muslim Brotherhood (as called by the Muslim Brotherhood themselves and several reports by multiple organizations). She gave several lectureres as member of this said organisation (with men and women apart).

Ok will try to read a bit more about the organisation later on but what are her own political views and her own political statements? And even if she did talk at one of these events, what was she there to say? Was she there talking, for instance, about how women should stay at home and need to be separated from men? Or talking about climate change, capitalism, human rights etc?

Are we talking about Kauthar Bouchallikh?

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Ok will try to read a bit more about the organisation later on but what are her own political views and her own political statements? And even if she did talk at one of these events, what was she there to say? Was she there talking, for instance, about how women should stay at home and need to be separated from men? Or talking about climate change, capitalism, human rights etc?

Are we talking about Kauthar Bouchallikh?

Yes. That's her. I don't dislike her in any way I just don't understand this conservative views exsist within our so called progressive parties.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

She also attented workshops of Milli Görüs. Surely that's not progressive in any way?

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

She's called Kauthar Bouchallikh. Apparently she's denied the allegations.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tr...muslim-woman-running-for-parliament-41777/amp

Yes, she even lied about it while there is a ton of evidence. All links are in Dutch but just look at for instance the Twitter account of Carel Brendel and that alone would give you enough evidence.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

oh boy

What do you mean? Don't you think it's a valid point?

 

[Smores]

Strange thread, how does having a religious member stop them opposing radical islam exactly?

It's not unique for a left party to have MPs with religious views It's just that policy isn't shaped by those views. If anything there's benefit to having such diversity within as it allows better engagement.

 

[Tarrou]

What do you mean? Don't you think it's a valid point?

nah I didn't mean that, sorry

it's just guaranteed to turn into a shit show of a thread

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Strange thread, how does having a religious member stop them opposing radical islam exactly?

It's not unique for a left party to have MPs with religious views It's just that policy isn't shaped by those views. If anything there's benefit to having such diversity within as it allows better engagement.

You don't think being a member of conservative Islamic organisations contradicts with being a member of a progressive left wing party?

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

nah I didn't mean that, sorry

it's just guaranteed to turn into a shit show of a thread

Allright, wouldn't want it that way.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Does she definitely have political opinions that align with her supposed religious conservativism? Is she against same sex marriage, for example?

If so, then yes, that is a bit weird. If not, then what’s the problem?

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Does she definitely have political opinions that align with her supposed religious conservativism? Is she against same sex marriage, for example?

If so, then yes, that is a bit weird. If not, then what’s the problem?

She does give lectures with men and women apart in the Netherlands so I would say that's pretty conservative. And yes that's weird. That's the point of this thread. And rest assured that if Kees van der Staaij the leader of our protestant party would give a lecture with men and women apart our Green Party would be the absolute first to condemn that and rightfully so.

 

[Smores]

You don't think being a member of conservative Islamic organisations contradicts with being a member of a progressive left wing party?

Depends on her views, you'd have to give examples of issues she's addressed. I think you might be seeing the word Islam and assuming a bit too much.

You can definitely still be progressive and religious. If she's there because she has a passion for her progressive beliefs then i don't see the issue.

Don't we want religious communities to also engage in areas of progressive politics than can be agreed on?

 

[dumbo]

A reputable link to the story you are talking about would be nice. I googled variations of Dutch Green Muslim Brotherhood nomination and now I have a load of alt/far-right recommendations.

 

[Spoony]

Aren't the Green Party Netherlands primarily concerned about climate? Do they have a position on religious views??

 

[Pogue Mahone]

She does give lectures with men and women apart in the Netherlands so I would say that's pretty conservative. And yes that's weird. That's the point of this thread. And rest assured that if Kees van der Staaij the leader of our protestant party would give a lecture with men and women apart our Green Party would be the absolute first to condemn that and rightfully so.

Ok, fair enough. The lectures thing is bad. Has anyone grilled her on any other personal political opinions? Surely they must have?

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

A reputable link to the story you are talking about would be nice. I googled variations of Dutch Green Muslim Brotherhood nomination and now I have a load of alt/far-right recommendations.

Just google Femyso and Milli Görüş. She was vice-president of Femyso for instance. Here an article (Dutch Guardian) where she acknowledges she was with Femyso. She denies the connections with Muslim Brotherhood from Femyso. I would suggest to read into Femyso and see if you find that believable. Start with what the Muslim Brotherhood themselves say about Femyso.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-ac...t-van-banden-met-moslimbroederschap~bf959b9e/

 

[VorZakone]

Do you have some quotes of her? What does she say or believe in?

 

[africanspur]

She does give lectures with men and women apart in the Netherlands so I would say that's pretty conservative. And yes that's weird. That's the point of this thread.

That isn't quite the same though.

Does she herself think that men and women should be split apart?
Does she refuse to shake hands with men?
Is she against gay marriage?
Is she against

Again, we don't know all the information here. She may have spoken at that conference

There is a subtle difference between she must be conservative because she spoke at a conference where men and women were sat apart (ie, where she had no control over the seating pattern and may have been picked as the most palatable face to the Muslim community for the Greens) and where she was talking about their party platform and she must be conservative because she's actually espoused conservative views.

Genuinely not trying to criticise but so far, we're almost a page in and we have apparent links to certain organisations in her youth and her having spoken at a conference where men and women were sat apart. Nothing as far as I can see so far on what her actual political views are.


If she personally believes:

-That climate change is manmade and we need urgent action to stop it
-That there should be an expanded welfare state to support the most vulnerable in society
-That LGBTQ rights are fundamental to a modern society
-In democracy and a free society
-International co-operation to help end global poverty
-Liberal immigration
-And maybe even in legalising soft drugs
-Equality of the sexes

The I see no problems. So far, we've not seen anything to dispute that.

If you're going to tell and show us that she personally thinks men and women should be separated in society, that gays are sinners who who will go to hell, that she is against legalising of soft drugs and doesn't believe in an expanded welfare state, then yes the Green party is a very weird link for her.

And again, if her workshop at this Turksih organisation was 'down with the West!', then yes serious problems. If her workshop was 'how can Muslims help to save the environment like everyone else' then that seems fundamentally very different to me?

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Ok, fair enough. The lectures thing is bad. Has anyone grilled her on any other personal political opinions? Surely they must have?

Yes for instance they grilled her when she walked in a protest where they waved flags with the Israelian flag = Nazi flag. Google Bouchallikt, Hamas and you'll see it.

 

[dumbo]

The best I could find so far was an article declaring: Appointment of Kauthar Bouchallikht is high treason . Which I won't link because it is stuffed with pernicious virusware.

And this poem.

DEMOCRACY: the death of us

Humanity is governed by
Democracy we’ve not designed.
There were no formal documents.
It formed in our collective mind.
There are no parties seeking power.
Instead our countries take their place.
Each has a leader but just three
Are in the present leader’s race.
Democracy was given birth
And is sustained by the divides
We see throughout humanity
Creating our opposing sides.
Defenders say it is the worst
Except of course for all the rest.
But blind belief it is the way
Keeps us from seeing Nature’s best.
It is Her way of living that
Began 2 million years ago.
She was authoritarian;
Our predecessors didn’t know.
With Nature’s rule “they reached out to
The bounds of their capacities,
To others, and to Nature’s God.”,
Their natural activities.
Two million years of “reaching out…”
Created bodies we now see
And minds allowing them to ask
The reason they were meant to be,
Two hundred thousand years ago.
They looked. A reason wasn’t found.
They tried to fill the void with some
Creating thus, uncommon ground.
Since then as tries to fill the void
Increased, creating more divides,
Humanity that once had none
Has more than 7 billion sides.
In early years, to bridge divides
It was decided to debate.
When no one would give up their side
They all discovered how to hate.
Debate was called Democracy.
We’ve claimed our rights to fill the void,
Unnatural activity
That’s left our lives all but destroyed.
Apparently, we have 10 years
To make our way back from the brink.
In order to, we must increase
Our mind’s capacity to think.
Since we were ‘born’ by “Why am I?”,
Despite the knowledge we’ve acquired
Our joint capacity to think
Has not increased to what’s required
To make the necessary change
That would allow us to survive.
While we still try to fill the void
We simply can’t remain alive.
However, if we rise to see
The void in us can not be filled
And then begin to empty it,
The consequence will leave us thrilled.
We will return to common ground.
Together, we’ll no longer fear
The void. Debate will end and so
Democracy will disappear.
We will not need a substitute.
There’s one in place that’s been repressed.
A known authoritarian,
We will be ruled by Nature’s best.
With it we will create ourselves.
We’ll all see what we can become;
And rather than be torn apart,
Humanity will be our sum.
Our time is short. We must begin
To change at once. Though we may die
Regardless of the change we make,
We owe it to ourselves to try.
To restore our self-creative relationship with nature
we have to end our self-destructive relationship with
democracy.
United we ourselves create.
Divided we disintegrate.

 

[Buster15]

i thought the thread title was the beginning of a joke

Me too.
I was going to ask - who are they?

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

That isn't quite the same though.

Does she herself think that men and women should be split apart?
Does she refuse to shake hands with men?
Is she against gay marriage?
Is she against

Again, we don't know all the information here. She may have spoken at that conference

There is a subtle difference between she must be conservative because she spoke at a conference where men and women were sat apart (ie, where she had no control over the seating pattern and may have been picked as the most palatable face to the Muslim community for the Greens) and where she was talking about their party platform and she must be conservative because she's actually espoused conservative views.

Genuinely not trying to criticise but so far, we're almost a page in and we have apparent links to certain organisations in her youth and her having spoken at a conference where men and women were sat apart. Nothing as far as I can see so far on what her actual political views are.


If she personally believes:

-That climate change is manmade and we need urgent action to stop it
-That there should be an expanded welfare state to support the most vulnerable in society
-That LGBTQ rights are fundamental to a modern society
-In democracy and a free society
-International co-operation to help end global poverty
-Liberal immigration
-And maybe even in legalising soft drugs
-Equality of the sexes

The I see no problems. So far, we've not seen anything to dispute that.

If you're going to tell and show us that she personally thinks men and women should be separated in society, that gays are sinners who who will go to hell, that she is against legalising of soft drugs and doesn't believe in an expanded welfare state, then yes the Green party is a very weird link for her.

And again, if her workshop at this Turksih organisation was 'down with the West!', then yes serious problems. If her workshop was 'how can Muslims help to save the environment like everyone else' then that seems fundamentally very different to me?

Equality of the sexes we can agree she doesn't value that much if she gives lectures with men and women apart. I for intance would never do that. Would refuse to speak if that was the case. Democracy and free society I also doubt very much as she glady joins a organization tight to the Muslim Brotherhood which don''t value democracy and a free society in a way I would like a party i'd vote for. The rest of the points I don't know yet as she isn't very much a public figure as of yet.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes for instance they grilled her when she walked in a protest where they waved flags with the Israelian flag = Nazi flag. Google Bouchallikt, Hamas and you'll see it.

Is that religious conservatism or a misguided equivalence based on the treatment of Palestine by Israel?

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Me too.
I was going to ask - who are they?

GroenLinks apparently.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Is that religious conservatism or a misguided equivalence based on the treatment of Palestine by Israel?

I think a misguided equivalence partly guided by her conservative religious believes. Or do you think they are absoutely unrelated? Supporting Hamas is as conservative as it gets really. You can condemn Israel's actions and still oppose Hamas as I for instance do.

 

[africanspur]

Equality of the sexes we can agree she doesn't value that much if she gives lectures with men and women apart. I for intance would never do that. Would refuse to speak if that was the case. Democracy and free society I also doubt very much as she glady joins a organization tight to the Muslim Brotherhood which don''t value democracy and a free society in a way I would like a party i'd vote for. The rest of the points I don't know yet as she isn't very much a public figure as of yet.

I don't agree with the first statement in the slightest. The fundamental point of any Green party is climate change and preserving our planet. I personally think it is totally right and proper, especially if you are so passionate about a particular subject as to join a party for it, to try to reach out as much as you can to all possible groups.

The point of politics is to try to reach new groups to enact change, not to ensconce yourself in your own bubble.

Again, I think what she was talking about is vital. If she was talking about the importance of changing how we act to save the planet, then I see it as a way to reach a demographic that perhaps the Green parties worldwide don't often reach. If she was there talking about how Gays shouldn't be allowed to get married, then that of course is a totally different matter.

Seems like an awful lot of extrapolation to me so far.