The Controversial Idea of using players in their best position

[Borys]

A few people raised an eyebrow yesterday when I posted "what an exciting line-up" in Matchday thread before the game, so I may owe you some explanation.

I won't criticize Ole for trying Pogba in deeper midfield as a #6, on paper he looks perfectly equipped to perform that role efficiently. Definitely was worth a try.

I'm not going to moan about Rashford being shifted wide left as we have no wingers, although it's quite quite clear his close control of the ball is not his best quality.

Now we can argue about Pogba and Matic being level higher as footballers than Fred and Matic.

But I want to emphasize how yesterday in 3-5-2 every player looked natural in their position, and why it should be considered as our primary setup*:

De Gea - obviously his best position is in the goal but being honest we haven't tested him on the right of a front 3 /Pogba thread joke
Wan Bissaka - Tuanzebe - Lindelof - Shaw - Telles

Bold move to play Tuanzebe against PSG attackers, but he didn't put a foot wrong. No other defender would keep up against Mbappe in speed contest. This might've been the most difficult contest for both Wan Bissaka (who was amazing, unsurprisingly) and Tuanzebe.

Shaw is a natural defender, he takes good positions and never loses concentration. His passing and ball control is very decent if not good, but he doesn't connect with the team while attacking (poor link up play other than ball circulation), and has no end product.

That is why I have high hopes for Telles, in case of which the jury is still out how good defensively he is, but seems to be good offensively with a wand of a left foot.

I have nothing against Lindelof, he was fine yesterday but I'd swap him with Maguire for a few reasons. Firstly, Harry deals much better with aerial threat. Secondly, he's a good organizer what will be important if we want to play back 3/5. Thirdly, he's good on the ball and if surrounded by pacey players, we can make a use of his passing from the deep. Wan Bissaka only player who will struggle with more offensive duties, but he's so good defensively that we should definitely invest time in him.

McTominay - Fred
Probably the most underrated pair on this forum, maybe among United fans in general. We might want to upgrade on them in the future, but as for now by far our most efficient midfield combo. I hear many people say we need at least one attacking minded player in midfield against weaker teams. I don't see what Pogba does better attacking-wise when playing in deep midfield so not sure how that argument holds. Might make the case for van de Beek, but he'll get a chance I'm sure.

Bruno
Enough said already.

Martial - Rashford
Although each can do a job on the wing, both are pure strikers. I liked how they kept close to PSG back 4, ready to be released in a split second. It almost paid with a goal, and on another occasion will.

SUBS
Pogba was really good yesterday, but needs to be played in advanced role because his hold-up play is much more efficient there as defenders are scared to foul him close to the box.
Matic can slot in nicely for McTominay/Fred in later stages of a game, but honestly we should not be relying on him as first choice midfielder (as much as I rate him).
Greenwood - playing two up front makes it easier to rotate as we have total number of 3 quality attacking players.
VDB - like mentioned before, will get his chance

I think that line-up in 3-5-2 formation is a well balanced side, and a great platform for attacking players to perform. It has pace, strength, threat on set pieces, all players in natural position, possibility to shift to other formation quickly, rest players and make 1-to-1 sub without a significant drop in quality, which will always happen if we play MMM trio up front.

With difficult games coming, is this the way forward? If not, what would you change and why?

 

[RUCK4444]

I asked the question about switching to 3-5-2 a while back and was shot down.

I think it certainly should be tested going forward, I agree we look like more of a solid team in this formation as it suits the players we have.

 

[Bilbo]

I dont disagree with you, but I also don't feel we are good enough yet to just say 'This is how we play. What are you going to do about it?'

Its excellent that we have the tactical fluidity to be able to adapt to the terrain. We have so many top managers/coaches in the PL now that they will, and do, quickly adapt to teams that are winning matches.

Id far rather give these guys the problem of not knowing what to expect when we turn up, as surely Lampard is doing right now.

However, you're right that this is a system we have the players to excel at.

 

[FootyGirl88]

I dont think Shaws best position is LB anymore, he doesn't play like a modern LB. I think CB is the way forward for him.

 

[JJ12]

I dont think Shaws best position is LB anymore, he doesn't play like a modern LB. I think CB is the way forward for him.

And only in a 3. He even gets forward on occasions from there.

 

[HowYouDoin]

You said nothing wrong.

 

[FootyGirl88]

And only in a 3. He even gets forward on occasions from there.

Yeah, it would interesting seeing him in a back 4 if push came to shove.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I dont think Shaws best position is LB anymore, he doesn't play like a modern LB. I think CB is the way forward for him.

That’s odd. He was bombing forward far more in the last 2 games than I’ve seen him in a long time. Saturday it was a more conventional system and last night a 3-5-2.
If we go with a back 3 he’ll be used as a wing back or back to a conventional LB.

 

[James Peril]

PSG away is a different animal compared to most other games - it’s incredible you don’t even mention different scenarios before selling this revolutionary idea. In other matches we are favorites and teams will defend with low blocks. PSG didn’t defend with blocks at all, they were all over the place. We played like the underdog, which is a setup we like against supposed better teams, albeit PSG on paper yesterday were not better than us. We had LOTS of room, we will not get lots of room against approx. 17 out of 20 teams in the league by default. Same in Europe, PSG are particularly stupid - most other teams aren’t. Chelsea could be a good setup, they are a bit PSG-ish in their defending this year.

- How effective will Martial and Rashford be in a two against a low block?
- Were you really impressed by Fred and McTominay vs. Newcastle? They didn’t win that battle at all and Fred was subbed before we started scoring.
- Are you saying we should setup defensively in all games to lure teams forward, to create this mythical room needed for our strikers to run in behind? Good luck selling that to Dyche and Burnley.

Yesterday was nothing new, we beat PSG before (a better version as well) and we beat better teams last year using clever, defensive tactics. This isn’t our problem, the other games are and that’s where the above suggestions are useless. Rashford and together in a two against a low block is a disaster in most games.

 

[HowYouDoin]

Also I have given up on Pogba almost completely but I would be confident in playing him in that hybrid LM/LW role. He could still perhaps turn out a great player for us in that role and it also allows our strikers to play more centrally.
That is the way forward. Pogba shouldnt be allowed anywhere near CM though.

 

[HowYouDoin]

Also I have given up on Pogba almost completely but I would be confident in playing him in that hybrid LM/LW role. He could still perhaps turn out a great player for us in that role and it also allows our strikers to play more centrally.
That is the way forward. Pogba shouldnt be allowed anywhere near CM though.

 

[FootyGirl88]

That’s odd. He was bombing forward far more in the last 2 games than I’ve seen him in a long time. Saturday it was a more conventional system and last night a 3-5-2.
If we go with a back 3 he’ll be used as a wing back or back to a conventional LB.

Yeah he bombs forward every now and again but he doesn't do it consistently, and when he does theres not much end product.

 

[SCJY]

I agree, 5-3-2 / 3-4-1-2 is our best formation as it allows us to have more bodies behind the ball when defending and having two speed demons up top, they are far less likely to be left in isolation as we can have more playmakers slightly deeper in midfield to feed them.

It's the transition from defense to attack that makes this formation the most viable and I see no problem in starting all games this way no matter the opposition. It's solid and dependable and by adding Telles into the mix with his deliveries, operating as a proper wing back, it's amazing.

We want our full backs to "attack, attack, attack", but we get exposed too often when playing 4 at the back and Wan-Bissaka loses possession in the final third, for example. Of course they need to chase back, but it would put a lot less pressure on our fullbacks and make me feel a lot more comfortable with our full backs attacking if there were always 4 at the back to provide cover, giving our full backs a lot more freedom to attack.

Having an extra body in the back means we need to sacrifice one body up top, but I think it's a myth that having three speedy attackers such as Greenwood, Martial, Rashford up top with a number 10 in the pocket will result in more attacks. Being so top-heavy simply leaves too may holes in the midfield.

We don't have the personnel to play that set-up anyway. If we got Sancho, then sure, it might have worked, but I still think not getting Sancho was a blessing if it allows us to evolve into using this more pragmatic system as a default.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Yeah he bombs forward every now and again but he doesn't do it consistently, and when he does theres not much end product.

Hence the acquisition of Telles. He’s defensively sound enough though. Had some good moments there in the middle yesterday. Maybe he could function in a 3 but I’d prefer someone taller and more mobile

 

[Gator Nate]

Great OP. I really like the 3-5-2, particularly with the speed Ole is building into this squad. That said, I like having multiple formations and versatile players for them. Ole also seems to be building that into the squad.

Now, about DDG as a right winger... I'd like to see it. Maybe against Fulham.

 

[Borys]

I asked the question about switching to 3-5-2 a while back and was shot down.

I think it certainly should be tested going forward, I agree we look like more of a solid team in this formation as it suits the players we have.

Telles transfer changes a lot though, I'd never consider 3 at the back with Shaw, who I rate as a defender, but not as a modern fullback.

PSG away is a different animal compared to most other games - it’s incredible you don’t even mention different scenarios before selling this revolutionary idea. In other matches we are favorites and teams will defend with low blocks. PSG didn’t defend with blocks at all, they were all over the place. We played like the underdog, which is a setup we like against supposed better teams, albeit PSG on paper yesterday were not better than us. We had LOTS of room, we will not get lots of room against approx. 17 out of 20 teams in the league by default. Same in Europe, PSG are particularly stupid - most other teams aren’t. Chelsea could be a good setup, they are a bit PSG-ish in their defending this year.

This is not a revolutionary idea. On the opposite, it's just common sense, and I'm trying to add another perspective why I think Ole has tried some solutions this season from the start, despite many signs showing it will not work (Pogba illness for one).

- How effective will Martial and Rashford be in a two against a low block?
You know that both goals yesterday came after PSG was in full defensive setup right? They will be fine. Even when not in good form, Rashford seems to have a good shot on him, while Martial moves really good in tight spaces. Same goes for Greenwood.
- Were you really impressed by Fred and McTominay vs. Newcastle? They didn’t win that battle at all and Fred was subbed before we started scoring.
They did win the battle, and I was happy with that midfield setup. Actually I've been banging about them as first choice midfield combo for many many weeks. They need to provide the solid base for attack to perform, and nobody in our team does it better.
- Are you saying we should setup defensively in all games to lure teams forward, to create this mythical room needed for our strikers to run in behind? Good luck selling that to Dyche and Burnley.
I want us to stop conceding 3 goals per game in the league (current average), for a start. It might turn out we're not able to break down teams which set up extremely defensively against us like you say. But I have much more faith in our attacking players than you do. Like I said, with this team threat comes from all different aspects of the game.

Yesterday was nothing new, we beat PSG before (a better version as well) and we beat better teams last year using clever, defensive tactics. This isn’t our problem, the other games are and that’s where the above suggestions are useless. Rashford and together in a two against a low block is a disaster in most games.

I asked a specific question about coming tough games - Chelsea, RB Lipsk, Arsenal, Everton are our next opponents. I don't think they will hide behind two lines of defense.

Also, I'd really appreciate if you could suggest a solution (if you have one) so that we can discuss it both ways instead of moaning about my proposition. There's always something which isn't perfect, we're not Bayern level mate.
I see the problems with 3-5-2, but I see bigger flaws in different setups. For example, playing Martial up front, Rashford and Greenwood on the wings results in more firepower on paper, but they are not used to their full strength. And we have nobody on the bench with attacking quality. And - we are less secure at the back.

 

[RUCK4444]

Telles transfer changes a lot though, I'd never consider 3 at the back with Shaw, who I rate as a defender, but not as a modern fullback.

Yeah I asked it right after we signed Telles. I suggested it would be the best way to support the defence when we were having that really bad patch and would be a good way to give Telles game time straight away.

I think it suits the players we have.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I asked the question about switching to 3-5-2 a while back and was shot down.

I think it certainly should be tested going forward, I agree we look like more of a solid team in this formation as it suits the players we have.

It's a formation teams play when they are afraid of conceding goals. Look at Arsenal. It's a sham. It's a defensive line up that invites pressure. It's good to be able to play in different formations, but a defensive formation should never be Manchester United's preferred set up...

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

@Borys I think the 3-5-2 has proven to be a reliable formation when we are facing a team with very good attackers or just teams that attacks. We've always implemented it as a defensive formation so I don't know if it's good against teams that sit deep. But I don't see the need for a 3rd CB when you face teams that sit deep

 

[kouroux]

I will echo what most have been saying. This formation is good against the strongest teams we'll face but most of the time we'll need something else though. Whatever the case there are some players who have to play no matter the system (Rashford, Bruno, Tuanzebe,Bissaka are the only sure 100% starters for me if fit)