The decline of center back talent

[Andycoleno9]

Ok, this thread is starting to be clash of eras so lets go in that way:
Pl top 10 defenders:
1.Ferdinand
2.Vidic
3. Stam
4. Terry
5. Carvalho
6. Campbell
7. King
8. Adams
9. Kompany
10. Desailly or Van dijk( i put him just because...i don't know why tbh, i have couple of others defenders in my head but why not)

Attackers:
1. Henry
2. Bergkamp
3. Rooney
4. Cantona
5. Rvp
6. Rvn
7. Shearer
8. Drogba
9. Aguero
10. Zola, Owen, Hasselbaink, Cole

Italy:
1. Nesta
2. Baresi
3. Maldini
4. Cannavaro
5. Costacurta
6. Bonucci
7. Chiellini
8. Ferrara
9. Bergomi
10. Materazzi

Attackers
1. Inzaghi
2. Baggio
3. Del piero
4. Vieri
5. Ronaldo(9)
6. Sevcenko
7. Zlatan
8. Batistuta
9. Crespo
10. Totti

Best defenders played against best attackers in the world but some will say that today's strikers are more clinical and defenders are more quicker. Yeah, right.

 

[Renegade]

Agreed. The modern mentality of instant kneejerking and twitter clipped GIFS and videos has besmirched the status of CBs in the current game. Time naturally increases the status of a player, but you’d think some of these old CBs were flawless the way people go on.

Puyol is a great example as you mention; and then in that very same page two posts flippantly belittle Sergio Ramos - undeniably the superior of the two Spaniards...

Puyol was the superior defender in my opinion, Ramos better technically with incredible goal scoring ability.

 

[Redplane]

I just came here to berate the OP for not including Stam in the list of greats.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

One theory is that all the top teams generally completely dominate games now through possession, partly because of the financial disparities and inequality in many top leagues, but also just that most games fit into an attack vs defence mode far more than they used to.

According to a Jonathan Wilson article, the number of games in which one team had 65% or more of possession rose from 11 in 2004 to 94 in 2017.

So if you're playing 38 league games a season and 25 of them you are going to have 60% of the ball, it doesn't really help to have limited defenders because it will take away from your attack and it's 3 points for a win, so draws are not much good if you want to win the league against anyone that isn't a direct rival.

It means that Man City can get away with Fernandinho and Rodri in defence, Liverpool with Fabinho in centre defence etc. If they had 48% possession, they'd be in serious trouble but because they don't concede many chances, you can increasingly "get away" with not having good centre-backs if the system or rest of the team is up to scratch. But when you get to the big games like when City met Liverpool, you see the sub-standard defence being completely exposed.

The truly top teams then meet for a limited number of games over a season, usually in the Champions League, which in recent years have led to some crazy results and scorelines, comebacks of 2 and 3 goals, top teams conceding 3 and 4 in big games which was unheard of a few decades ago. Why? Their defence just isn't that good at defending and wasn't bought for that purpose and they can't manage against much superior attackers.

You used to hear that defences win leagues, but now it is attacks that win leagues, the team that scores the most generally does it. But defenders often win cups at the top level, which is why Liverpool have been so good in Europe since they got Van Dijk, Atletico have almost won a few CLs and France won the World Cup with Varane, Umtiti plus two full-backs that could play CBs.

 

[meamth]

You don't think those legends would adapt to the modern game? I don't see the logic in saying VVD would be brilliant in any age but Vidić or Rio for example would struggle in modern game which isnt so much faster, ous a myth which someone covered here already.

It is faster. Science proved that. Google it up.

 

[meamth]

Not sure how many times i have to share this..

https://sciencenordic.com/denmark-f...sts-football-has-changed-dramatically/1440511

 

[Infordin]

Sees Ramos mentioned in this thread.

Sighs.

Suarez and Lewandowski (the two best strikers of this decade) both rate Ramos as the toughest CB they’ve ever played against. That must mean something.

I do not consider Ramos a great defender at league level, but a GOAT tier defender at Champions League level.

 

[Bebestation]

I may be completely wrong but I predict in the next decade elite CBs will be in the mold of players like Fabhino/Rodri(less so) rather than VVD/Maguire. The reason being is the target man is steadily declining in importance and even if they feature in a side they are rarely the focal point of attacks like years gone by. In the coming years, I think most if not all top teams who play in elite sides will need CBs who can cover ground to snuff out counter-attacks AND pass/move out of the high press into to break the lines. Players like Fabihno also give managers a lot of tactical flexibility (DM, RB, or CB based on circumstance). I think physically dominant CBs (strength and ariel ability) will become more of a value-add rather than the prototype (they will still need to be able to pass very well). Granted Fabinho nor Rodri are CBs are natural DMs but I think we will start more CBs in their mold.

Some may counter with Lindelof as an example of this mold of CB backfiring. However, I would argue Lindeloff lacks the quickness of a player like Fabinho. A player I think could be a great CB is Declan Rice. I wouldn't want him in my midfield but I think he could be an elite CB.

Are you talking about these complex hybrid style young central defenders that are popping up everywhere in europe?

More and more of the central defenders have this crazy ability to be comfortable playing a DM's role aswell as a CB's role.

It's a very hard thing to explain because I'm not sure if we are on the same level. What I'm starting to see is:
- the modern defender has a dynamism playing further up midfield but with the ability to drop deep and defend.

As you said, to have the capability to cover ground, avoid the press, dribble out and then pick the right pass. Like Fabinho or Rodri would do if they were to defend and had recovered the ball as the final defenders.

Lindelof can't read the game & let the game fall at his tempo to do all that fluently in a quick move.

Rice & Zakaria are good example who possibly might be able to in the future.

I think Frenkie De Jong in this video shows what the modern day CB will be like; playing in 3's (defensive false 9) with players of the mould of Fabinho in a way that is extremely athletic but also highly tactical ie to initiate counters even faster.

 

[MackRobinson]

Are you talking about these complex hybrid style young central defenders that are popping up everywhere in europe?

More and more of the central defenders have this crazy ability to be comfortable playing a DM's role aswell as a CB's role.

It's a very hard thing to explain because I'm not sure if we are on the same level. What I'm starting to see is:
- the modern defender has a dynamism playing further up midfield but with the ability to drop deep and defend.

As you said, to have the capability to cover ground, avoid the press, dribble out and then pick the right pass. Like Fabinho or Rodri would do if they were to defend and had recovered the ball as the final defenders.

Lindelof can't read the game & let the game fall at his tempo to do all that fluently in a quick move.

Rice & Zakaria are good example who possibly might be able to in the future.

I think Frenkie De Jong in this video shows what the modern day CB will be like; playing in 3's (defensive false 9) with players of the mould of Fabinho in a way that is extremely athletic but also highly tactical ie to initiate counters even faster.

Exactly what I'm talking about.

Another aspect is how this shift explains the failure of managers like Mourinho, who seems to value physicality much more than managers like Pep or Klopp.

 

[Marcus]

I think the problem is that usually players all start out wanting to be strikers. If you can't make it technically, then you progress in this manner: Striker -> Midfielder -> Defender. This may explain the decline.

 

[Bebestation]

Exactly what I'm talking about.

Another aspect is how this shift explains the failure of managers like Mourinho, who seems to value physicality much more than managers like Pep or Klopp.

Literally all Pep or Klopp use are variations of a 433 they adapt differently to both get a 2-3-5 attack.

Only way to stop this efficiently is to play a back 3 ie a back 5. It's why even we use it as a vital tactic & Klopp can talk about us going defensive.

This is why I think the next generation of defenders won't pop up until a manager figures out the right defensive and attacking balance of a 343 or a 352 - because too many clubs use the 433 for that not to eventually happen.

Players who are flexible in their positioning allow for a whole target area to be targeted off, rotate the possession to the appropriate position and go on a run or make a pass that leads to a goal scoring opportunity.

Dier wasn't all that bad for Spurs when dropping in to defence from midfield back when Pochettino was using it too.

 

[Seaman]

Retired footballers are like dead people. Once they are gone their stock rises. It’s funny how these debates happens in every sport. People always overrate the past. Players are better than ever imo.

 

[Harry190]

I think the problem is that usually players all start out wanting to be strikers. If you can't make it technically, then you progress in this manner: Striker -> Midfielder -> Defender. This may explain the decline.

This is not a bad argument. It's actually probably much closer to the truth than some think.

 

[Son]

I still think the game where modern defenders at the top level probably should have been rethinking their approach afterwards was in 2005 when Messi ghosted past Canavaro with ease.

Close control and wingers who cut inside are all their age now so defenders have a nightmare. They use more teamwork to ease the burden than ever before and the great Barcelona side of 2009-2012 made use of the advtange to the attacking side like none before it.

Tactical free kicks to keep possession and dribbling in the opponents box all adds extra pressure. Makes it harder for defenders to clear a ball when it’s on the floor and moved at pace.

 

[njred]

Retired footballers are like dead people. Once they are gone their stock rises. It’s funny how these debates happens in every sport. People always overrate the past. Players are better than ever imo.

That is true. Greatness comes from being relative to the other players in that era. Rio was a good CB relative to players in that era. I just don’t think that type of CB would make it in today’s game because of the speed. He would struggle and be found out. So to say that VVD isn’t a patch on past CBs is a joke. To say VVD needs time to be considered one of the great CBs is fair enough because of the years put in but he’s better right now than 90% of any CBs from any time. Easily.

 

[Son]

That is true. Greatness comes from being relative to the other players in that era. Rio was a good CB relative to players in that era. I just don’t think that type of CB would make it in today’s game because of the speed. He would struggle and be found out. So to say that VVD isn’t a patch on past CBs is a joke. To say VVD needs time to be considered one of the great CBs is fair enough because of the years put in but he’s better right now than 90% of any CBs from any time. Easily.

How would Rio struggle in today’s game? That’s a strange example. He had all the physical assets and ability needed to thrive in modern football.

He may not be as athletic as VVD but I guarantee he looked better on the ball and just as calm. Maybe he wasn’t quite a good as VVD at his very peak but he’s better than 99.9% of CB’s in the world today imo.

In a world where Koulibaly is the second best defender around I’m pretty sure I’ve seen Rio play a higher standard of football for a bigger club. United in 2008 would beat the current Napoli side.

 

[Ban]

It is faster. Science proved that. Google it up.

It is but not waaaaaaaay. Google that up.

 

[Ban]

That is true. Greatness comes from being relative to the other players in that era. Rio was a good CB relative to players in that era. I just don’t think that type of CB would make it in today’s game because of the speed. He would struggle and be found out. So to say that VVD isn’t a patch on past CBs is a joke. To say VVD needs time to be considered one of the great CBs is fair enough because of the years put in but he’s better right now than 90% of any CBs from any time. Easily.

As @Son said why would Rio struggle? I'm sure he would adapt to the way the game is played nowadays. Game changed but not that much that the likes of Rio would be found wanting.
I don't think VVD doesn't have a patch on past great CBs but on the other hand it's too early to call him the greatest ever. It works both ways, no need to lessen the quality of let's say Rio and Vidić to biggie up VVD.

 

[meamth]

It is but not waaaaaaaay. Google that up.

It is.

Science can now back up that claim. A new study shows that the amount of sprinting in the English Premier League has increased by 50 per cent in ten years.

The new research is based on the analysis of 473 Premier League players, and shows that the high intensity sprints come at a price: after just a couple of minutes of sprinting, the players will have a hard time keeping up with the game for upwards five minutes.

“The general pacing of football has increased dramatically and it seems as if the nearly constant intensity of the game, which was characteristic of the sport a couple of years back, has been replaced with a lot of high intensity sprinting periods followed by resting periods,” says co-author Magni Mohr from the University of the Faroe Islands.


“Modern football is currently experiencing a trend of a lot of goals being scored in the final fifteen minutes of the game,” says Krustrup, pointing to the recent UEFA Euro 2016 tournament where 26 per cent of all goals were made after 75 minutes of playtime.

Studied 473 football players.

360 full time players and 113 sustitutes.

Scientists collected 1,105 observations over 62 games with 24 different Premier League teams.

Positions were: centre backs, full backs, mid fielders, wide midfield, and forwards.

The new study is published in the scientific journal Science and Medicine in Football.

I retract back what I said, players aren't significantly faster, but the amount of sprints are higher in the modern game, hinting that it's difficult for top center backs in the past to keep up. The bombardments of attack in the latter part of the games are certainly more demanding.

 

[Ban]

It is.



I retract back what I said, players aren't significantly faster, but the amount of sprints are higher in the modern game, hinting that it's difficult for top center backs in the past to keep up. The bombardments of attack in the latter part of the games are certainly more demanding.

My point is it doesnt make sense to just 'throw' past players in modern age and comment if they'd struggle. I'm sure some of them would just adapt if they played in the present. Talent was there. Not to mention the lack of real quality, wc CBs now despite the game being faster.

 

[giorno]

Puyol was the superior defender in my opinion, Ramos better technically with incredible goal scoring ability.

More like less prone to losing his damn mind and pull stupid s*it. When fully locked in i'd say Sergio is the slightly better defender of the two, though it's close. Puyol was great and a great inspirational leader as well. Not the game-winner Sergio is though

 

[VJ1762]

More like less prone to losing his damn mind and pull stupid s*it. When fully locked in i'd say Sergio is the slightly better defender of the two, though it's close. Puyol was great and a great inspirational leader as well. Not the game-winner Sergio is though

I will never forget that header against athleti in the dying seconds of the CL final. They were so close, but Ramos said, "Not today".

I think the best goal scoring defender is definitely Koeman. His statistics are ridiculous.

 

[Litch]

The same could be said of most of the positions on the pitch I guess. I do think goalkeepers have improved though.....

 

[Seaman]

That is true. Greatness comes from being relative to the other players in that era. Rio was a good CB relative to players in that era. I just don’t think that type of CB would make it in today’s game because of the speed. He would struggle and be found out. So to say that VVD isn’t a patch on past CBs is a joke. To say VVD needs time to be considered one of the great CBs is fair enough because of the years put in but he’s better right now than 90% of any CBs from any time. Easily.

I think you have to also remember most of us are in England and every player is bigger in his country than other places. Obviously you can’t compare their medal haul. But for me Van Dijk is up there with any CB I seen in the PL. He has everything. People forget unlike Rio he is playing with two very attacking fullbacks and has more space to defend

 

[redcafe_reader]

Not sure how many times i have to share this..

https://sciencenordic.com/denmark-f...sts-football-has-changed-dramatically/1440511

Yeah because if you put an old defender with skill and brain like Rio, Baresi, Nesta, etc to today with modern sports scientist they won't improve physically, at all.

 

[meamth]

Yeah because if you put an old defender with skill and brain like Rio, Baresi, Nesta, etc to today with modern sports scientist they won't improve physically, at all.

Never said we should bring them all back here in this era and wait for them to prepare their fitness level and play again.

Nope, ideally if you summon them right here right now in a competitive match, they would struggle. That was their peak, at the fitness level of football of the previous generation. Get what i mean?

It's Liverpool vs City 2019, and you summon Baresi from his peak days. Would he struggle? Of course he would.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Yeah because if you put an old defender with skill and brain like Rio, Baresi, Nesta, etc to today with modern sports scientist they won't improve physically, at all.

Nesta and Rio would be the worlds best defenders if playing today.

 

[redcafe_reader]

Never said we should bring them all back here in this era and wait for them to prepare their fitness level and play again.

Nope, ideally if you summon them right here right now in a competitive match, they would struggle. That was their peak, at the fitness level of football of the previous generation. Get what i mean?

It's Liverpool vs City 2019, and you summon Baresi from his peak days. Would he struggle? Of course he would.

So what's your point? You wouldn't summon Pele to play right away at modern football. Is he not as good of a footballer as Mane or Salah?

On the same logic, it's World Cup 1974 final, would you summon VVD to replace Beckenbauer? VVD didn't do that well again an aged Messi without Xavi and Iniesta, would he walk into the Inter Mourinho team and play better than them in their famous 1-0 win?

 

[meamth]

So what's your point? You wouldn't summon Pele to play right away at modern football. Is he not as good of a footballer as Mane or Salah?

On the same logic, it's World Cup 1974 final, would you summon VVD to replace Beckenbauer? VVD didn't do that well again an aged Messi without Xavi and Iniesta, would he walk into the Inter Mourinho team and play better than them in their famous 1-0 win?

Oh yes, 100% he will boss that game.

 

[Harry190]

Oh yes, 100% he will boss that game.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Gio]

It's Liverpool vs City 2019, and you summon Baresi from his peak days. Would he struggle? Of course he would.

Unlikely. Baresi was the on-the-pitch mastermind behind modern defensive play that City and Pool embrace and set the standard for high offside lines and compact play. He read the game better than any attacker of his era bar Maradona and out-thought, out-positioned and out-played plenty of superior athletes over the years. Not that he wasn't impressive enough in that department anyway:

A leader at the back, very strong and quick, with an excellent understanding of the game. As a defender, he could do everything. A lot of the time, he would know what the attacker was going to do before they knew themselves! How do you get past someone like that?

The consummate libero, capable of doing whatever he wanted with the ball whether he was defending or attacking. He had great positional sense and with his speed, he could bring the defence out quickly and launch an attack. And that was always half a goal in itself.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Never said we should bring them all back here in this era and wait for them to prepare their fitness level and play again.

Nope, ideally if you summon them right here right now in a competitive match, they would struggle. That was their peak, at the fitness level of football of the previous generation. Get what i mean?

It's Liverpool vs City 2019, and you summon Baresi from his peak days. Would he struggle? Of course he would.

Sure he would. I mean, Lovren, Van dijk, Otamendi and Stones are on different level than Baresi.
I will quote Baresi now from his interview for RAWK; " I love how Stones and Lovren read the game. I wish i could have played on their level. I never played against attackers like Mane or Sterling. I would not know how to defend against them"

 

[André Dominguez]

I will never forget that header against athleti in the dying seconds of the CL final. They were so close, but Ramos said, "Not today".

I think the best goal scoring defender is definitely Koeman. His statistics are ridiculous.

And it wasn't just free kicks: Koeman was actually a pacey player and quite skilled on the ball.

 

[Theonas]

One theory is that all the top teams generally completely dominate games now through possession, partly because of the financial disparities and inequality in many top leagues, but also just that most games fit into an attack vs defence mode far more than they used to.

According to a Jonathan Wilson article, the number of games in which one team had 65% or more of possession rose from 11 in 2004 to 94 in 2017.

So if you're playing 38 league games a season and 25 of them you are going to have 60% of the ball, it doesn't really help to have limited defenders because it will take away from your attack and it's 3 points for a win, so draws are not much good if you want to win the league against anyone that isn't a direct rival.

It means that Man City can get away with Fernandinho and Rodri in defence, Liverpool with Fabinho in centre defence etc. If they had 48% possession, they'd be in serious trouble but because they don't concede many chances, you can increasingly "get away" with not having good centre-backs if the system or rest of the team is up to scratch. But when you get to the big games like when City met Liverpool, you see the sub-standard defence being completely exposed.

The truly top teams then meet for a limited number of games over a season, usually in the Champions League, which in recent years have led to some crazy results and scorelines, comebacks of 2 and 3 goals, top teams conceding 3 and 4 in big games which was unheard of a few decades ago. Why? Their defence just isn't that good at defending and wasn't bought for that purpose and they can't manage against much superior attackers.

You used to hear that defences win leagues, but now it is attacks that win leagues, the team that scores the most generally does it. But defenders often win cups at the top level, which is why Liverpool have been so good in Europe since they got Van Dijk, Atletico have almost won a few CLs and France won the World Cup with Varane, Umtiti plus two full-backs that could play CBs.

Excellent post. The top clubs have simply realised that a defensive strategy that relies on having less of the game played in your own third is, in the long run, better than exposing your defenders and having to defend the box. It's a fairly obvious conclusion. The only difference now is that the top clubs thanks to better coaching and a higher concentration of talent, can actually apply it.

 

[stevoc]

I'm not too sure Sol Campbell, Terry or even Ferdinand would be that great in todays type of game. These days defenders need pace too, and many of those legends mentioned above had 0 pace. Back in their days, full backs did not attack. The centre backs had way more help defending.

I hope you're talking about Anton because you definitely didn't see Rio in his prime if you think he wasn't fast. Ferdinand would be the best in the world if he was playing today.

 

[stevoc]

I agree. VVD is the evolution of the CB at it's highest level. Fitness and speed has changed. The old plodding CBs of yesterday couldn't compete now. What's weird is it wasn't that long ago that the likes of Rio and Terry were playing but the game has evolved so quickly in the last few years that it seems watching clips of them looks like something out of the 1950s.
I don't think they could play in todays game and would get found out. Whoever said that VVD couldn't lace their boots sounds like a bitter old man.

 

[VJ1762]

It's a sign of things to come, bro. Scousers are talking smack now that they have a team. I think we will have to shut this forum down come May for 2 or 3 months.

 

[stevoc]

It's a sign of things to come, bro. Scousers are talking smack now that they have a team. I think we will have to shut this forum down come May for 2 or 3 months.

Whether they've been good or shit loads of Liverpool fans have always spouted absolute twaddle. But yeah they seemed to have kicked into overdrive the last year.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Thought I’d bump this thread after what we’ve seen over the last few months and in particular at the start of this season.

Defenders at the top clubs making basic errors, giving aways stupid penalties, cant hold a line, passing the ball to the opposition, can’t head the ball, slow, weak, turning like fridges.
It’s actually a joke and I see it getting worse.

Whats quite astonishing is that in this thread there were people saying defending and defenders are better than they’ve ever been.

 

[Chief123]

Thought I’d bump this thread after what we’ve seen over the last few months and in particular at the start of this season.

Defenders at the top clubs making basic errors, giving aways stupid penalties, cant hold a line, passing the ball to the opposition, can’t head the ball, slow, weak, turning like fridges.
It’s actually a joke and I see it getting worse.

Whats quite astonishing is that in this thread there were people saying defending and defenders are better than they’ve ever been.

Defending is being lost as an art. Whether attackers are getting better it’s hard to say because if defenders are getting worse then naturally attackers are going to look better.

But yes, there is definitely not the same calibre of defenders as there used to be.

Greatest defender at our club I’ve witnessed has to Jaap Stam. Had literally everything you want. Better than Rio and Vidic in my eyes.