The Euro Draft - QF - harms vs crappy

[MJJ]

The amount of work harms has put into this draft is incredible, reminds me of @Joga Bonito in the English draft where I felt he should have won the whole thing as a reward for his dedication. Then I realized that was normal Joga later

 

[crappycraperson]

Dragan is obviously 1968, Meazza is in his prolonged pick from 34 to 38.

He is mostly a №9, who will keep your defence busy, but he is a great player and no great player is really limited with a tactical scheme. He has a certain role in my trio and he knows it and he plays it to perfection.

If we are talking dates, what's your Rosetta's peak?

It will be 1931–32 Central European International Cup version, during that time he was a stalwart for Juventus as well winning 5 titles in a row

Here is nice piece on Rosetta for everyone

Juventus.com will continue to present the 50 Bianconeri legends whose names will be attached to the new stadium, chosen by the fans.
Virginio ‘Viri’ Rosetta was one of the first greats to wear the black and white stripes, a full-back signed from Vercelli.

Born in 1902, Rosetta began his career as a striker and helped return Pro Vercelli to Scudetto success following their five consecutive title wins between 1908 and 1913. His contribution saw the side enjoy successive championship victories in 1921 and 1922.

1923 saw his arrival in Torino, having won two titles by the age of 21 and represented Italy in the 1920 Summer Olympics. It proved to be the start of a long and fulfilling association with the Bianconeri, lasting 16 years (13 as a player) and was marked by success. The first came in 1926 as Juventus lifted the title again, 21 years after their first in 1905.

This return to Scudetto success was a mere taste of what was to come in the Bianconeri’s illustrious future history. From 1931, Carcano’s side achieved five title wins in a row. The legendary trio of ‘Combi-Rosetta-Caligaris’ were immensely popular stalwarts of the Quinquennio side, guaranteeing victory with their strong defensive play.

Rosetta’s great tactical awareness, shown many times on the pitch, convinced the club to offer him the job of manager. He took the reigns in 1935/36, whilst still representing the side as a player, and remained in the role for the next three campaigns. His playing career came to an end having made 36

 

[harms]

@harms, I like it. There's a danger we go overboard here in allowing for oldies, allowing for lesser known players and ending up allowing for far too much... Every one of those is a great player though, with excellent Euro credentials. It's only Khurtsilava I had never heard of/noticed. It gives a certain air to the team as well, disciplined and tirelessly hardworking, much like the USSR used to be, but with token much needed creativity drafted in through Schuster and Meazza, as well as Dzajic's trickery and inventiveness. But the beauty of it is all those three would be good fits in terms of temperament and adhering to the overarching disciplined approach (e.g. drop Ronaldinho in there and he would look all at sea to me). My only minor quibble is why Bessonov doesn't have an arrow, or how/why he doesn't while Brehme does. Ignoring them as individuals, the team needs Bessonov storming up his flank more than they need Brehme to so it's really odd.

I forgot to change it from the first game where I wanted a more loopsided formation, I said earlier that he is free to go forward when he sees a possibility - I trust him maybe the most here, he really had a great understanding of the game, after spending so much time with Lobanovsky

 

[crappycraperson]

Did you actually watch the games? It wasn't an achievement to be a best player at 1976 side, Neeskens and Van Hanegem were sent off, Cruyff wasn't all that in the first game and didn't participate in the second, where Geels was their best player.

If you are stating that Krol is one of the 5 best left backs in the world than I'm not sure that you actually did watch them, he isn't his monstrous self, just a quality player there.

Are you seriously suggesting that any one who elects an older player in these drafts needs to match full matches to judge them in anyway?

Why are you telling me about other dutch players? How does it even matter, Krol's peak lasted through the 70's starting with Ajax's success and culminating in his sweeper role in 78 WC. During the same he played in Euros for dutch, in the same euros in which he was selected as the best left back of the tournament. Why would I need to qualify his role or form in this match? Is the draft rule that the peak performance of a player in the draft match has to be equal to some replica of performance from a real match?

 

[antohan]

Don't really get the criticsm of Ceulemans and Platini here. They'er in their perfect roles. Kocsis has always played with goalscoring threats from deep, he's an excellent choice as an allround forward who can connect with a striker or keep centerbacks busy for others to push forward. He did that all his career. Ceulemans loved to drift left or come from deep, he provides great runs off the ball and an additional goalthreat.

It's actually one of the best set-ups for Platini I've seen on here. I also like that you chose this midfield line-up. I don't think you need Tardelli and Tigana. Aren't both offering the same anyway? Platini always played with one of them and a more disciplined holding midfielder. It gives Platini way more freedom to drop deep and carry the ball, which he loved to do.

Agreed, and Senna has better Euro credentials than Tardelli anyway. I would have liked the notion of Tigana-Tardelli going on runs either side of Platini, but only if you had a holding Senna behind him. That would have cost Figo though and, in this game and company, I would stick with Figo. The problem is the defence is a bit of a shambles with Scirea/Krol not at their highs, Dellas making it on the back of an extraordinarily defensive team and setup and Rossetta looking out of place based on the fit between his job here and what little I know of him (strikes me as Mauro Ramos of sorts). When you face an attack largely comprised of standout performers and EuroGOAT contenders you can't afford that.

 

[Fergus' son]

I don't get half the criticism for crappie team, looks like it would work well.


I remember a huge furore in a previous draft when I think someone else proposed to use Meazza on the right but it doesn't seem to be happening in this, rightly or wrongly I'm not too sure. From what I know of him you could be effective in that role but it's difficult to judge with older players.


I went with crappy but it's close and I may still change my vote.

 

[crappycraperson]

@antohan - Since you have already voted, I would appreciate if you did not contribute in this match up in a turbo manner now. I appreciate the points you have made for and against my team. But given I see very little scope in you changing your vote, I don't want to derail for this undecided voters by replying to your points (that chain will never end and consume the whole thread)

Thanks

 

[Fergus' son]

 

[antohan]

I don't get half the criticism for crappie team, looks like it would work well.

I remember a huge furore in a previous draft when I think someone else proposed to use Meazza on the right but it doesn't seem to be happening in this, rightly or wrongly I'm not too sure. From what I know of him you could be effective in that role but it's difficult to judge with older players.

I went with crappy but it's close and I may still change my vote.

I think that was the World Cup draft and it was a similar thing as yesterday with Zebec. "Did he really play there?", cue questioning various teamsheets presented as evidence, then mixed up with ongoing discussions about the WM, WW, MM and whatnot and it's implication to inside and outside forwards... You know the drill.

Can Meazza play at inside right? Yes. Will he provide great width? Nope, that's what Bessonov is there for. At least that's my take on it.

 

[antohan]

@antohan - Since you have already voted, I would appreciate if you did not contribute in this match up in a turbo manner now. I appreciate the points you have made for and against my team. But given I see very little scope in you changing your vote, I don't want to derail for this undecided voters by replying to your points (that chain will never end and consume the whole thread)

Thanks

No worries mate. I'm actually quite busy today and won't be around much, which is why I went straight for a decision over bouncing various questions off either manager.

If you start falling behind and need some votes you can always tag me and I'll turbo up the thread so it gets bumped and draws more votes (that's actually a big part of what I consider "my role" as an outsider, keep it bumped!).

 

[Fergus' son]

I thinkt hat was the World Cup draft and it was a similar thing as yesterday with Zebec. "Did he really play there?", cue questioning various teamsheets presented as evidence, then mixed up with ongoing discussions about the WM, WW, MM and whatnot and it's implication to inside and outside forwards... You know the drill.

Can Meazza play at inside right? Yes. Will he provide great width? Nope, that's what Bessonov is there for. At least that's my take on it.

I'd tend to agree but it is difficult with these older players.


Great game so far, one of the more interesting ones,

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I would appreciate if you did not contribute in this match up in a turbo manner now.

 

[harms]

Are you seriously suggesting that any one who elects an older player in these drafts needs to match full matches to judge them in anyway?

Why are you telling me about other dutch players? How does it even matter, Krol's peak lasted through the 70's starting with Ajax's success and culminating in his sweeper role in 78 WC. During the same he played in Euros for dutch, in the same euros in which he was selected as the best left back of the tournament. Why would I need to qualify his role or form in this match? Is the draft rule that the peak performance of a player in the draft match has to be equal to some replica of performance from a real match?

Erm, because this is a Euro draft and not a 70's draft? You have Krol as one of the most important players here, tactically. We are judging him by his Euro performances in 1976, but somehow his club form is relevant? I don't argue with Rosetti's 5 scudetto's, you have to introduce him somehow, but the footage of Krol's performances in 1976 is available and he isn't the monster that you paint him to be, that don't need a left winger (so he must have done something outstanding in attack, yes? but no, he didn't). His form in that tournament was average - but there were no other better left back in that tournament, as simple as that.

 

[harms]

And I'll just continue to rub it in - in one goal there is the best goalkeeper ever (and in the draft) Lev Yashin, in the other - a keeper that conceded 7 goals from my main striker in one European (ergo relevant) game. Go figure.

I know that keepers can do feck all in this draft, even after De Gea's heroic this season they still are somehow irrelevant, but come on!

 

[crappycraperson]

Erm, because this is a Euro draft and not a 70's draft? You have Krol as one of the most important players here, tactically. We are judging him by his Euro performances in 1976, but somehow his club form is relevant? I don't argue with Rosetti's 5 scudetto's, you have to introduce him somehow, but the footage of Krol's performances in 1976 is available and he isn't the monster that you paint him to be, that don't need a left winger (so he must have done something outstanding in attack, yes? but no, he didn't). His form in that tournament was average - but there were no other better left back in that tournament, as simple as that.

Wll that is your opinion. He was also listed as the best Dutch player on display in that tournament, a dutch team that did beat Yugoslavia to finish third.

 

[harms]

Wll that is your opinion. He was also listed as the best Dutch player on display in that tournament, a dutch team that did beat Yugoslavia to finish third.

Where?

Re: opinion - well, yeah, but I would want to ask another opinions if anyone here watched that Euro. The claim of top 5 left backs ever is completely irrelevant here

 

[crappycraperson]

And I'll just continue to rub it in - in one goal there is the best goalkeeper ever (and in the draft) Lev Yashin, in the other - a keeper that conceded 7 goals from my main striker in one European (ergo relevant) game. Go figure.

I know that keepers can do feck all in this draft, even after De Gea's heroic this season they still are somehow irrelevant, but come on!

If you really think that Sarosi facing Planicka is the thing that will decide this match then you have lost the plot. Yashin is marginally better than Planicka so that adds to your defensive unit but I would rather have someone like Scirea leading the defensive line. You simply have no defender equal or even near him in your unit.

 

[crappycraperson]

Where?

Re: opinion - well, yeah, but I would want to ask another opinions if anyone here watched that Euro. The claim of top 5 left backs ever is completely irrelevant here

DF: Ruud Krol (Netherlands) One of the central figures in the emergence of Dutch 'total football' during the 1970s, Krol was a classy, authoritative defender who could play just about anywhere. He came to prominence with AFC Ajax, winning back-to-back European Champion Clubs' Cups, but it was at the 1974 FIFA World Cup where he really made his name. Although the Oranje only finished third at the 1976 UEFA European Championship, he was the outstanding Dutchman on view. He went on to captain his country to another World Cup final in 1978 and accumulated a then-national record 83 caps.

http://www.uefa.com/news/newsid=1623462.html

 

[harms]

If you really think that Sarosi facing Planicka is the thing that will decide this match then you have lost the plot. Yashin is marginally better than Planicka so that adds to your defensive unit but I would rather have someone like Scirea leading the defensive line. You simply have no defender equal or even near him in your unit.

It's not like I have the best defender of 1976 leading my defence, who was voted as 6th best player in Europe that season because of that performance. It's not like I have the best stopper/man-marker in USSR history, who captained his average team to the final in 1972, not conceding in 1/4 and 1/2. Yeah. Again, you confuse a career peak and the actual Euro level here. I know that I brought it on myself with all those unfamiliar names but they were top performers as I proved over and over.

 

[Theon]

I can't due to the pre 1966 rule

Ahh fair do's. I can see why Vogts would be one to avoid in this game anyway and your midfield still looks excellent.

It's no big loss in that respect but Tardelli and Tigana would have been fantastic together - two complete midfielders, would have been a nightmare to play against and mark going forward.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Meazza is not going to stretch the play, so technically you don't need Krol there. Senna would be better placed to drop back there and support. Krol for width makes more sense now.

 

[harms]

Meazza is not going to stretch the play, so technically you don't need Krol there. Senna would be better placed to drop back there and support. Krol for width makes more sense now.

Bezsonov and Van Moer will.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Bezsonov and Van Moer will.

Can you explain on this a bit more? From what I think, Voronin will not be able to handle Platini on his own. Which kinda makes van Moer play a tad defensively. Will he have the same impact as he did for Belgium. If he drifts right, will you be open for a quick counter. Thoughts?

Bezsonov seems to a attacking type. Though you don't have a arrow there, I'm assuming he doesn't do a Bergomi. He can handle Krol, but there will be a few crosses every so often imo.

 

[harms]

Can you explain on this a bit more? From what I think, Voronin will not be able to handle Platini on his own. Which kinda makes van Moer play a tad defensively. Will he have the same impact as he did for Belgium. If he drifts right, will you be open for a quick counter. Thoughts?

Van Moer will play like he played for Belgium - look at the videos. He is doing his defensive work and in possession he is capable of drifting wide - but mostly it will be Bezsonov, it is his natural play. There is no problem with width here on my right side, and Krol (who gets overrated here by crappy because of his career, as I said earlier) will have to do his share of defensive duties.

Bezsonov is a lot like Gerets, actually (but faster), with whom Van Moer formed a brilliant partnership in 1980.

What I don't understand here is, mostly, Dellas - he isn't a good fit in crappy's fluid defensive system - he is a player that benefited from Greece's reactive play - but in a quick and open encounter, which this will most certainly be, he will be exposed to Meazza/Sarosi or even Schuster at times.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

From that Dutch team, most people would have Cryuff as their favourite player. For me it has always been Neeskens followed by Krol.

 

[harms]

Van Hanegem is mine, followed by Neeskens Krol was good in 1976, but nothing more - second Czechoslovakian goal, for example, came from his side and the third started from the right flank also. And Netherland's main attacking threat in both games was coming from the right flank.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Van Hanegem is mine, followed by Neeskens Krol was good in 1976, but nothing more - second Czechoslovakian goal, for example, came from his side and the third started from the right flank also. And Netherland's main attacking threat in both games was coming from the right flank.

I always thought Rijsbergen was covering for Suurbier better than Haan who was playing sweeper himself.

 

[Gio]

My only real concern with Crappy's team is his central defence. Both Scirea and Dellas effectively operated as the spare man sweeping their back line so I'm not sold on the complementarity of their roles there.

Harms is brilliantly true to the spirit of the draft.

 

[harms]

Well, that was close. Good thing that I sent all those PM's to Germans and Serbians out here.

Good game, @crappycraperson, and a kudos for doing something unexpected here.

 

[crappycraperson]

Damn. Didn't have time to post again

Good luck @harms going forward